Which tests or trials

[FortBend]

First time to post on the board, though I reading the posts has been helpful. I'm looking to get a quail dog, but I've primarily been around retrievers so I'm kinda new to the bird dogs. I'm trying to figure out which hunt tests and/or field trials i should be looking at to judge a dog suited for me.

I'd be hunting for quail, as I said in SE TX on foot. I'd like to get something that is close ranging for this reason. (I wouldn't mind a dog that can retrieve a little either.) I've been leaning toward a French Brittany, but am open to other dogs. Mainly, I just want to figure out which designations from tests or trials I should look at to give me an indication of whether or not the dog's pedigree is suited to the style of hunting I'm looking for.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[romeo212000]

You said you are wanting to hunt quail and because of that you really need something that doesnt hunt real close. Here in Oklahoma the places you find quail are out in the grasslands and for that you need a dog that will run a few hundred yards out. If you are wanting to watch trials, you might check out the NSTRA trials. You may notice that a large number of trialers use German Shorthairs because they are such versatile dogs and run quail well and have good retrieving instinct. I went with a GSP after watching several work and was pleased overall with the range among other things. But there are a lot of people who hunt with brittnays so this is jsut my opinion, I dont pretend to be an expert.

[FortBend]

Yes, I understand that most quail hunting in places like OK and TX is in more open country. My area is much brushier and thicker (close to the coast). We've had a long ranging pointer and hunted other people's rangier dogs down there, but it's a pain given the terrain and flora--hard to keep up. I've been around quail hunting and dogs to have an idea about what I'm looking for, but I'm fairly ignorant about selecting a breeder or a litter.

I will look more at the NSTRA, but I was under the impression that those were horseback trials. I guess that I assume that horseback = bigger range.

As for the GSP, I'd like to get one given the versatility, but for selecting a ltter, I keep coming back to my original issue/question. Thanks for the help.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

If you will hunt the area you mentioned, I would assume it will primarily be a preserve so the typical Texas quail dog might not be needed. So, I would believe a French Brit might be just fine. However, if you will hunt S. Texas or west Texas, for wild birds, you will need a dog that will run some. I'd suggest Ronnie Sale in Jonesboro, TX at 254-463-9000 for a pup or started dog, or Scott Bodenstab who has a litter of pups right now, at 817-692-4678, HiTailyn Shorthairs. If you are wanting a Brit, I'd suggest calling Tom Milam in Elm Mott, TX for a Brit reference. I know these folks will be honest with you.

[Greg Jennings]

I will look more at the NSTRA, but I was under the impression that those were horseback trials. I guess that I assume that horseback = bigger range.

NSTRA is handled from foot.

Range is, IMHO, more a matter of the particular line, and how the dog is developed, than the breed.

Just make sure that you tell whoever you talk to about a dog that you foot hunt in thick cover.

Best regards, Greg J.

[FortBend]

No, we have wild quail. Are you saying that Fr Brits can't handle wild quail? Thanks for the suggestion on breeders, by the way.

Thanks for the correction on the NSTRA trials. I've found some in my area, so I'll check those out.

[Brittguy]

When you are looking at a trial, remember the dog has been trained for that type of trial. A horseback trial type of dog may suite your needs just fine if trained properly. I have some dogs that run as big as any in the breed at a trial. When I am home I can keep them in all day hunting on foot. They know the difference as to what I want.

Tom Milam is a very nice person and well known in the breed. He could also put you in contact with Jim Crawford. I think Jim is in Houston area and breeds .

[Don]

You asked about trials or test's to watch. AKC pointing dog test's and NSTRA trials are what I would suggest. If you do decide to go to horseback trials, concentrate on the gun dog stakes. What you will probably find at those trials is more what dogs are popular, not especially which dogs might siut you. I have never seen a French Britt in any trial or test. Doesn't mean they won't work. Never seen a Vizla in a NSTRA trial and never a Weimaraner in any trial. Use caution on some of the less used breeds, there's generally a reason for it.

There are a lot of breeds that might fill your need, some have proven themselves over and over. For your needs, the breeds I would concider are the E. Setters, GSP's, Britts, Vislas and Wirehairs.

[WildRose]

Now don't read me wrong. I field trial both horseback and walking trials but in all honesty looking to any trialing venue for what you are looking for isn't really the way to go. You are looking for a foot hunting dog, a companion and a buddy in the offseason. Those are not traits that any trialing or testing venue measures.

Trials and hunt tests are great places to see all of the pointing breeds to get a "feel" for what suits you but not necessarily the best place to go "dog shopping".

I would look away from the long haired dogs of all breeds for where you are unless you plan on shaving them. That part of Texas you will be hunting a LOT of days from the mid sixties to mid eighties and a thick/long haired dog is going to suffer in those conditions.

I would say look at GSP's (of course) as well as Vizsla's and even English pointers (if you can find the right line) and your odds of ending up happy will be greater.

Duane Maness up in OK has some really nice EP's that would be worth considering and if you are at all interested in the Vizsla's I can connect you with a couple of people that might be very helpful.

As for range, go ahead and forget about searching for a "close ranging dog". What you want is to find a dog from lines that will hunt with and for you according to the cover and conditions. We hunt the same dogs in the rolling hills of KS, on the prairies of SD, ND, and MT that we hutn forest grouse with in Idaho. We then turn around and come back to hunt in Texas as much as 75-100 days on good years and no matter where we are we're hunting birds WITH our dogs not looking for the dogs while we bird hunt.

There are a lot of dogs from all the breeds mentioned that will fit that bill for you.CR

[ohmymy111]

I think a French Brittany will do everything you are looking for. I have two now, and my dog Vern does it all. I have hunted Pheasant, Huns, Quail, Woodcock and Grouse with him. Chloe at 5 1/2 months was finding pointing and holding Pheasants and Huns. Typically a French Brittany is a closer working dog, but a lot of that is how much freedom you give them as a pup. If you are always keeping them in close at a young age, that is the type of dog they will be. if you let them range out, then they will do that as they get older. French Brittanys are very eager to please you. They are very people orientated, so if you are going to have a kennel dog, then it is the wrong breed, as they do not do well in that enviroment. If you are looking for a dog that will be with you and your family, and will be inside when you are home, they can then certainly be kenneled outside while you are away

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Sorry, never heard of any actual wild birds in SE Texas. Just depends on your hunting, not the breed as has been said. I don't know of anyone with a French Brit in Texas. Doesn't mean they don't exist down here, but I haven't see them. I would suggest attending the Gulf Coast GSP trials and hunting tests coming up in the next few months. There are brit trials in central Texas held by Bluebonnet and Texas Coastal Brittany. Jim Crawford lives up in NW Houston, so not too far from you.

[FortBend]

I take no offense about the wild birds. The area is definitely more known for waterfowl than upland. But there are still some good areas for quail south of Houston (not sure about the other side of it). The lack of quail tradition may make it harder to find something suited to this area, but we'll see.

Thanks for the leads on breeders and trials and the opinions.

[Hotpepper]

The Gulf Coast GSPC is a very good one and they have lots of great folks, check the AKC Website for the spring trial date that will be coming up real soon, get the location, go out shake some hands and see some really nice dogs. You are in a good spot there and should be able to find some really nice litters.

Pepper

[Ruffshooter]

If you wish a French Britt and would like to see it go. There is a fella in Oklahoma, R.L. Dalrymple, who has good hunting French britts. He is a great guy and his dogs will hold tight or move out as needed, Depending on cover like, most hunting dogs.


frenchbrittany@hypermart.net

[original mngsp]

I think a French Brittany will do everything you are looking for. I have two now, and my dog Vern does it all.

Mark, but Vern is a freak for any breed, and I say Freek with the utmost respect!!

[FortBend]

I will look into Dalrymple and the Gulf Coast GSP. I've been to the snake breaking the GCGSP puts on and it seems like a good organization.

[Yawallac]

As far as Pointers go these folks breed great walking hunting dogs with natural retrieving instinct. They are honest and genuinely good folks. Rick and Suzanne can answer any questions you might have.

http://www.yellowrosekennel.com

Rick & Suzanne Glover
1568 FM 100
Honey Grove, Texas 75446
(903)378-2359

Email: saglover@sbcglobal.net or glover@yellowrosekennel.com

[texscala]

I agree with Ruffshooter. I picked my FB up because of the desire to have a small indoor companion and a hunting dog. After giving her a lot of freedom her range opened up real nice and my little girl can flat out run. She stays closer when we go after forest grouse in the thick stuff but on the chukar hills she is a bit crazy. If properly trained any well bred bird dog should hold the birds for you and provide a good hunting experience.

As far as lots of hair just take your time and find parents that have tighter fur. My breeder was very helpful in allowing me to see pics of the pups and it was obvious which ones got mommas shorter tighter hair verses daddy's thick coat.

As was mentioned if you go with the French Brittany be ready to open your home to the dog. They really need to be a part of the family but will do anything to please their owners.

[gunner]

Of all the professional quail camps in Texas, private and public, the ones that use pointing dogs to find wild quail for their clients, day in and day out, throughout the season, which breed do you think is the most popular among those professional quail guides ?

[Shadow]

pointers that find and flushers that flush- so their clients can be seeing dogs that find and dogs that flush

[RayGubernat]

FortBend -

This question comes up frequently and Charlie Rose gave you an excellent answer.

Many different breeds can do what you ask. It depends on what the dog has between its ears and what kind of training it gets.

I firmly believe, and have seen that if a dog is trained and conditioned to hunt for the gun, it will do just that, unless perhaps its genetics are so heavily skewed toward running big(as in AF All Age breeding) that it cannot come out of that mold. I have had a succession of dogs that have been bred to be able and have been capable of running to daylight with the best of them, but who, when asked to hunt for the gun, will dial it right down(most of the time) and check back frequently. To be honest, some were better at it than others, but that is to be expected.

I find one of your comments interesting in this regard and would like to comment. If my comments do not fit you and your situation, please do not take offense, because not is meant.

You said that it was hard for you to keep up with some dogs. I have to say that there is generally something wrong with that particular equation. You should not have to "keep up" with a dog. The dog should range out, as appropriate for the cover and your preference, check back and maintain contact, again as appropriate for the terrain, cover and your preference. When birds are found, the dog should point them and hold them untill you get there...however long that takes. If the birds have walked off, the dog should be able to relocate them relatively quickly and directly, once you get there to release it.

Perhaps the dogs you saw were conditioned to hunt in more open country and therefore to punch out toward the horizon much more n search of birds. In any case, a good dog, of any breed, will adjust its search to accomodate the hunter. It is a question of experience(or lack of it) on the part of the dog, most often.

There is a natural human tendency, especially in heavy cover, to want to keep a dog closer, especially if the focus is on 1) not losing the dog and 2) killing birds. I find this tendency to be more pronounced in folks who have not learned to "let go" of the dog a bit. This is not a criticism...it is a very normal and natural human response, especially for those who have not had a good bit of experience with independent minded hunting dogs. We tend to want to micro manage things...I know I do. It is, again, perfectly natural to want to see everything, to be right on top of the action...to control everything. If a person has not not seen what a truly adaptable bird dog is capable of, in terms of adjusting, and checking back, they will tend to want to see the dog more because, in their gut, they are not sure if the dog will hold, if the dog will come back, etc. The trust is not there.

It is often a question of putting your trust in the dog and that can be very hard for some folks. A bell or even better in heavy cover, a remote activated beeper, can go a really long way toward allowing one to learn to trust the dog.

Again, these are generalizations that I have observed in hunters over the years and may not fit you r specific situation, so please do not take offense.


As far as lines of dogs that would suit you, I would suggest that successful walking shooting dogs have the abilities you are looking for, or perhaps,if you are uncomfortable with that kind of ground application, a notch below would be successful AKC Gun Dogs. A notch below that level of ground application would be AKC Hunt tests. Go see what these dogs can do and decide for yourself what kind of dog suits your needs and preferences. I am always a proponent of getting "little more dog" that I think I might need, because you can always pull a dog in, but you absolutely cannot push them out.

RayG

[msrkennels]

By your login I assume your in Fort Bend county I live in sugarland and breed and train GSP and would be happy to show you a few dogs working. James Messer contact #281-787-8236.

[texscala]

There is a natural human tendency, especially in heavy cover, to want to keep a dog closer, especially if the focus is on 1) not losing the dog and 2) killing birds. I find this tendency to be more pronounced in folks who have not learned to "let go" of the dog a bit. This is not a criticism...it is a very normal and natural human response, especially for those who have not had a good bit of experience with independent minded hunting dogs. We tend to want to micro manage things...I know I do. It is, again, perfectly natural to want to see everything, to be right on top of the action...to control everything. If a person has not not seen what a truly adaptable bird dog is capable of, in terms of adjusting, and checking back, they will tend to want to see the dog more because, in their gut, they are not sure if the dog will hold, if the dog will come back, etc. The trust is not there.

It is often a question of putting your trust in the dog and that can be very hard for some folks. A bell or even better in heavy cover, a remote activated beeper, can go a really long way toward allowing one to learn to trust the dog.

Great comment. Since getting a beeper collar my dogs range has really increased and I have learned to trust her. She checks back in from time to time and we find a lot of birds. I also know with out a doubt now that she will stay on point until I flush the birds.

[Shadow]

FortBend -

This question comes up frequently and Charlie Rose gave you an excellent answer.

Many different breeds can do what you ask. It depends on what the dog has between its ears and what kind of training it gets.

I firmly believe, and have seen that if a dog is trained and conditioned to hunt for the gun, it will do just that, unless perhaps its genetics are so heavily skewed toward running big(as in AF All Age breeding) that it cannot come out of that mold. I have had a succession of dogs that have been bred to be able and have been capable of running to daylight with the best of them, but who, when asked to hunt for the gun, will dial it right down(most of the time) and check back frequently. To be honest, some were better at it than others, but that is to be expected.

I find one of your comments interesting in this regard and would like to comment. If my comments do not fit you and your situation, please do not take offense, because not is meant.

You said that it was hard for you to keep up with some dogs. I have to say that there is generally something wrong with that particular equation. You should not have to "keep up" with a dog. The dog should range out, as appropriate for the cover and your preference, check back and maintain contact, again as appropriate for the terrain, cover and your preference. When birds are found, the dog should point them and hold them untill you get there...however long that takes. If the birds have walked off, the dog should be able to relocate them relatively quickly and directly, once you get there to release it.

Perhaps the dogs you saw were conditioned to hunt in more open country and therefore to punch out toward the horizon much more n search of birds. In any case, a good dog, of any breed, will adjust its search to accomodate the hunter. It is a question of experience(or lack of it) on the part of the dog, most often.

There is a natural human tendency, especially in heavy cover, to want to keep a dog closer, especially if the focus is on 1) not losing the dog and 2) killing birds. I find this tendency to be more pronounced in folks who have not learned to "let go" of the dog a bit. This is not a criticism...it is a very normal and natural human response, especially for those who have not had a good bit of experience with independent minded hunting dogs. We tend to want to micro manage things...I know I do. It is, again, perfectly natural to want to see everything, to be right on top of the action...to control everything. If a person has not not seen what a truly adaptable bird dog is capable of, in terms of adjusting, and checking back, they will tend to want to see the dog more because, in their gut, they are not sure if the dog will hold, if the dog will come back, etc. The trust is not there.

It is often a question of putting your trust in the dog and that can be very hard for some folks. A bell or even better in heavy cover, a remote activated beeper, can go a really long way toward allowing one to learn to trust the dog.

Again, these are generalizations that I have observed in hunters over the years and may not fit you r specific situation, so please do not take offense.


As far as lines of dogs that would suit you, I would suggest that successful walking shooting dogs have the abilities you are looking for, or perhaps,if you are uncomfortable with that kind of ground application, a notch below would be successful AKC Gun Dogs. A notch below that level of ground application would be AKC Hunt tests. Go see what these dogs can do and decide for yourself what kind of dog suits your needs and preferences. I am always a proponent of getting "little more dog" that I think I might need, because you can always pull a dog in, but you absolutely cannot push them out.

RayG

well said Ray- what you see in feild trails with the winning dogs is the nose and desire- it's what the top breeders breed for
back yarders just want a dog- will breed- cross or whatever- but put those down against a top dog- you don't want to do that very often
so you want the best nose and desire parents- then decide if you want a boot polisher or not- simple actually- you get your pup at 7 or so weeks- decide if you want it under foot or looking for birds- you want one underfoot- carefull about who you go hunting with

[FortBend]

Thanks for all of the input.

[BdBHunts]

There is another French breed as well, Braque du Bourbonnais. They work with you, close if need be and will range out too. I know that they can handle the heat as they hunt in AZ and CA. They are not afraid of the thick stuff and love to retrieve as well.

[briarpatch]

the original question was should he look towards hunt tested backgrounded or field trial lines for a close ranging foot dog..'

the answer is a hunt tested, or NAVHDA backgrounded, are more the norm for a foot hunter..If looking for a big ranger a FT backgrounded dog would be the answer..Of course their are always exceptions to the norm..



since you really didnt ask about breeds but everyone is throwing their Fav. choice of picks.. I would say, let me think HHHMMMM a GSP from NAVHDA backgrounded lines would be HHHHHMMMMMM perfect from what you described

[dirtdober]

Well said RayG.

On the earlier comment about not "dog shopping" at field trials and hunt test. I would have to disagree. Field trials may not be what you are looking for, but hunt test have plenty of dogs that would fit the bill. Hunt test will show you more breeds than you can see anywhere else. The hunt test around the Houston area that I have attended have GSP, Brittany, Visla, Irish Setter, Weimeraner and even some GWP and Gordon Setter. For some reason have not seen any English Setters or Pointers, maybe they perfer trial. Nowhere else can you see that type of variaty working in the field. One note on hunt test dogs, some of the dogs tend to come from show lines so make sure you ask, although usually it's easy to see. At these area hunt test I originally had a bad outlook on the first couple Weims I saw that would never leave the handlers side only to eventually relize that these had come from straight show lines.

Since you already have been involved in dogs I sure you know to watch more than one before making a decision. Once you find the breed, talk to the owners and I'm sure they could give you contacts. Also don't forget about NSTRA trials, which will have an ample supply of GSP, ES, and EP.

Also I live in Victoria and have only had one Brittany that has had problems with too much hair. Check the parent to find the ones with a little smoother coat.

Gary