Brittanies, trials and retrieving

[Trekmoor]

A tiny part of another thread caught my eye and puzzled me. I read that thread to mean that in some trials Britts can win and be placed without ever having to retrieve. Is this correct ? How do you properly assess a hunt, point, retrieve breed if it does not have to retrieve?

Bill T.

[Karen]

The Brittany is not required to ever execute a retrieve to achieve an AKC field title or an AF Ch. title. They do need to retrieve for hunt tests. Right or wrong (and this is yet another touchy subject) those are the rules.

[ezzy333]

Nothing touchy about it. It just doesn't make much sense but it seems one of the reasons is it was too dangerous to shoot the birds with people all around.

Ezzy

[Grange]

What about other field trials that aren't specific to brittanies? Is there a retrieving component or is this just limited to brittany field trials? I know in NSTRA a dog must retrieve and in the coverdog trial I saw there was no retrieving component since they were using wild birds.

[Kiki's Mom]

Aaaahhh.......a pet peeve of mine to be sure. But alas...too true. No retrieve is required for the Brittany to achieve it's FC title. SAD....but true.

[ezzy333]

With all I know and hear anymore, they may convince me retrieving isn't important. Now that we have people who think every dog should be FF why require a dog to retrieve. We don't need to breed for it so why require it in any competion?

I do think a natural retrieve is part of being a bird dog but I see it gradually disappearing. Too bad.

Ezzy

[Trekmoor]

I can hardly begin to express my shock at reading this, all of the versatile or Hunt, Point , Retrieve breeds were designed for rough shooters or as you you call them hunters to shoot over with the dogs making any necessary retrieves. To do otherwise is to make them into the same dogs as pointers and setters are in this country. These breeds are not required to retrieve here and many top hunting lines have little retrieve instinct. It isn't being bred for. Many of the people who work these breeds need a labrador or some other retriever along with them on any hunt. Is that the way you want to go with the versatiles ? Use it or lose it very much applies to the retrieve instinct, it must be bred for.
Not everyone wishes to train F.F. Not everyone is capable of successfully training it and not everyone has enough money to send a dog to be pro trained the F.F. A hunt, point, retrieve pup of any breed should have enough natural retrieve instinct bred into it to enable the average handler to train for retrieves without using F.F. if he so wishes.

I am truly sorry if this steps on anyones toes, it isn't intentional. I don't know anyone over the pond nearly well enough for this to be meant personally. It is my honest belief that you are in the process of taking a wrong route.

Bill T.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I for one have never had a brittany FF and never will. If they won't retreive they are sent down the road to someone that will weekend hunt them or family pets. I am just now geeting into trialing alittle more here and there but will only ever run retrieving stakes if I do. All my dogs in the few litters I raise retrieve is very important and I do evrything I can to help the pups become natural retreivers. I can honestly say of the maybe 8 or 10 brittanys I have owned all retrieved a couple just didn't do it good enough and now are in weekend hunting homes. So i don't think were breeding it out of our dogs they just aren't neccasarily asked to do it in SOME trials. But mine do!

[Karen]

I for one have never had a brittany FF and never will. If they won't retreive they are sent down the road to someone that will weekend hunt them or family pets. I am just now geeting into trialing alittle more here and there but will only ever run retrieving stakes if I do. All my dogs in the few litters I raise retrieve is very important and I do evrything I can to help the pups become natural retreivers. I can honestly say of the maybe 8 or 10 brittanys I have owned all retrieved a couple just didn't do it good enough and now are in weekend hunting homes. So i don't think were breeding it out of our dogs they just aren't neccasarily asked to do it in SOME trials. But mine do!

If you're only planning to run retrieving stakes, and you're running AKC trials, you just might have to spend some time on the west coast, where Brittany retrieving stakes are more common. You probably won't find very many, if any at all, in the mid-west, east central or eastern regions, and you need a 3 point major from a Brittany trial to finish an FC.

[Maverick]

Just because you don't have to retrieve in trials doesn't mean you can't reinforce and train for it. I hunt all my dogs and want them to retrieve for while out hunting.
Run trials and have fun if you want to. Run NSTRA or another venue that has retrieving if that is your choice.
There are also Hunt Tests and NAVHDA, both require retreiving as well.

Mav........

I for one have never had a brittany FF and never will. If they won't retreive they are sent down the road to someone that will weekend hunt them or family pets. I am just now geeting into trialing alittle more here and there but will only ever run retrieving stakes if I do. All my dogs in the few litters I raise retrieve is very important and I do evrything I can to help the pups become natural retreivers. I can honestly say of the maybe 8 or 10 brittanys I have owned all retrieved a couple just didn't do it good enough and now are in weekend hunting homes. So i don't think were breeding it out of our dogs they just aren't neccasarily asked to do it in SOME trials. But mine do!

[Kiki's Mom]

If you're only planning to run retrieving stakes, and you're running AKC trials, you just might have to spend some time on the west coast,

This is true,*If* you only plan on running in Brit trials alone. If, however, you really choose to, you can find retrieving stakes at any GSP Trial, nation wide that is also open to all breeds. The GSP people require the retrieve to be a part of the requirements of achieving the FC title

I agree Bill.....tis folly to exclude the Retrieve as an important aspect of the total package in the Brit!!!!! ANd it is a crying SHAME that we do not require the skill in our Field Champions.

[gar-dog]

This may be a dumb comment/question from a newbie bird dog owner. But is a willingness to find down birds and retrieve them completely different from "play" retrieving? My 4 month old Britt retrieves frisbees, balls, and a soft toy like crazy. She enjoys this play - I probably did 30 good throws in the house tonight with her soft toy, and most of the time she drops on command, but sometimes I give a slight paw squeeze. Then somtimes she will just stop, so I will not force the issue anymore. Do other pointing breeds not even do this kind of retrieving?

[Brittguy]

Just for those that do not attend trials. While some breeds do require a retrieve to finish a field title. Not all adult stakes at these breed trials are retrieving. I have been to GSP,Weim, Irish and Gordon Setter,probably most of the AKC pointing breeds and a lot of the time they have only one retrieving stake.

[WildRose]

The non trialing and "anti trialing" folks that think we're getting too far away from what makes a good hunting dog in what we use as winners at trials I think have a very good argument to be made about retrieving.

I'm one of those guys who thinks a natural retrieve should be extremely important in a breeding program because of far more than just getting a bird shot at 20 yards stone dead delivered to hand.

The best natural retrievers to me are also the dogs that are most inclined to do the hard work of trailing down that running cripple or digging a cripple out that's gone down a rat, badger, skunk, or armadillo hole. As hunters we should be and are expected to be more than just killers of game but real conservationists and stewards of the game we seek as well. To me a big part of that is making every possible reasonable attempt to put every shot bird in the bag.

If I could write the rules there would be no such thing as a "non retrieving stake" at a field trial, and were it more practical all trials would be shoot on course rather than call backs.

The call back is about as phony and contrived situation as one can put together but it is logistically and from a safety stand point far easier to manage so that's how most of our "retrieving stakes" are set up.

For all of those who would decry that the way we handle our retrieving stakes makes them basically irrelevant because "any dog can do that" all I can say is that in both call backs where I was competing and in those I've judged I've seen quite a few dogs fail. That in and of itself proves to me that indeed it needs to be a part of the process a dog must go through on the way to earning an FC title.

Unfortunately I'm not in the huge majority and because of logistics and insurance concerns I'm afraid that indeed there will be no more retrieving stakes within ten or fifteen years. CR

[WildRose]

I have been to GSP,Weim, Irish and Gordon Setter,probably most of the AKC pointing breeds and a lot of the time they have only one retrieving stake.

More often than not what I see particularly at GWP and GSP trials is that the open and amateur gun dog and AA stakes will require a retrieve. The limited stakes do not. A dog can easily fulfill it's retrieving requirement with one four point major win in a retrieving stake, therefore it's not necessary to have a retrieve for every stake. That is the theory at least.

In truth most dogs running in those stakes are going to have placed more often than they have won and will therefore have had to pass quite a few call backs before achieving those four retrieving points. CR

[kninebirddog]

Quite a few of the brittany trials are dual sanctioned ..by this I mean they pay fees to AKC and American Field so that when a dog wins it is acknowledged by both registries

American Field policy is no firearms capable of shooting a projectile are veen allowed on the grounds of a sanction AF event

So finding a brittany trial with retrieving stakes are very far and few between.

[slistoe]

OK, how many here can say that the Brits they have from the top field trial breedings in the country are compromised in their ability to retrieve? I have or had direct offspring of Jim De Bob's Sparks A Dan D, Gamblers Ace in the Hole, Hi Scor Jac D Ruffian, Ojibwa's DLD Bandit, Aux Arcs Marc, Lobo's Blazin Candy Man, and Noble Rocket. Every one of these dogs would retrieve downed game with NO formal retrieve training. Every single one of these dogs has been soft-mouthed as well.

[slistoe]

I forgot to add that I have had direct experience with, but did not own, dogs sired by Shambo's Dark Shadow, Jake's Son of A Gun Runner, Beans Blaze, Brewster D' RoosterBooster, Renegade's Kansas Kid, Perry's Rustic Prince, Chikamin's Mr Walker. I do not know the level of retrieve training all these dogs had, but I can attest to the fact that they all retrieved and did it well.

[kninebirddog]

as with all dogs some just are better at retrieving then others.
I know quite a few that needed a little assitance with retrieves some didn't like to retrieve at all and many are retriving fools
with all sorts of well known names in the peds

[mm]

This is an example of how the field trial is getting further and further from hunting. Many Britt trial dogs have never had a bird in their mouth and will never hunt. They have become race horses bred only to trial win get a title and breed. Thats fine but it does leave us full spectrum guys who hunt, live, trial and do everything with our dogs out of the game a little. I mean I still go an run my dog but my dog is not being trained as a full time trial dog. Trials are fun and the people are nice so its still fun to compete but its harder for us because you are teaching the dog different things. I know there are other venues that are more in tune to hunting but they are not in every area. It seems that they have left the northeast just as our hunting has declined in many areas. I was told by someone once when entering my dog in a trial that Field trialing is a sport in itself and I should realize that before I get involved. I have found this to be true. However I think it is a good fun sport and I am now considering a pup just for field trialing. I dont know if I can do it, but I am considering it.

[Kiki's Mom]

OK, how many here can say that the Brits they have from the top field trial breedings in the country are compromised in their ability to retrieve

Would that be compromised in the ability or really just a lack of desire to do so? More and More I have heard "My dog will go and stand over the dead bird when I'm hunting but he refuses to bring it back to me" Or " I shoot, the bird falls, and my dog marks it's fall and then continues to hunt rather then being bothered to retrieve for me"

How much of these scenarios is lack of training and how much is credited to lack of desire? Hard to say. Both could very easily be lack of training.

BUT ...a litter brother to one of my dogs just plain has a total lack of desire.....which was really a weird one for me. ALL of the litter mates loved to play the fetch game as youngsters and they all grew up to be pretty terrific hunting partners except this one. So what happened to "Leo" ( who was eventually neutered and later designated as the wife's dog.)

The lines behind this breeding include: Whiz Kid, Scott's Gingerbread Lady, Count Geoffrey, Hi Proof Rum Runner, Chikman's Chiklet, Orion's Major Eclipse, Rimarda's Trademark, and Jamar Fritz

[slistoe]

I mean I still go an run my dog but my dog is not being trained as a full time trial dog.

In what way is a full time trial dog trained differently than a part time trial dog?

[slistoe]

So what happened to "Leo"

The same thing that happened to "Charlie". He is a Labrador Retriever. A son and grandson of FC Labs. At 8 weeks his littermates were retrieving the whole length of the hallway - he had ZERO interest. He never did develop any interest. He was afraid of water. New owners never did get him to enter into water that I know of. One pup does not make a generalized problem.

[slistoe]

More and More I have heard "My dog will go and stand over the dead bird when I'm hunting but he refuses to bring it back to me" Or " I shoot, the bird falls, and my dog marks it's fall and then continues to hunt rather then being bothered to retrieve for me"

How much of these scenarios is lack of training and how much is credited to lack of desire? Hard to say. Both could very easily be lack of training.

I did have one dog who loved to get a bird in her mouth, but when we finished the breaking process she decided that I didn't want her to touch birds at all - even shot ones. She would find them and stand there but not pick them up. Lack of training in that case.

[Karen]

I thought this was an interesting quote from the 1907 Field Trial Article written by Chas. B. Cooke (link from yesterday viewtopic.php?t=10207)

"Retrieving is not a part of the
training of a field trial dog; this may seem
strange to the uniniated, but it is a big
item in running the trials. If each dog
were required to retrieve a dead bird it
would take weeks to pull off a meet,
which now consumes four to six days.
Any sort of a dog can be taught to
retrieve, but it cannot be made to smell
and point birds."

Too bad the $5.00 entry fees and $10.00 starting fees didn't stick But considering inflation over 101 years, entries of $45 really aren't so bad, are they.

[Wagonmaster]

Some of the NGSPA hour championships have retrieving stakes, it is up to the club. And the NGSPA is an AF sanctioned organization. I believe the "no live firearms on the grounds" rule is an AFTCA rule, not an AF rule. The AF does not have alot of rules, just the Minimum Requirements.

I know not much about this, but remember learning some 35 years ago that the Britts had a retrieving requirement but had done away with it some years earlier, so maybe the 50's or 60's.

[snips]

WOW, I have trained alot of Brittneys and I see very few natural retrievers.

[slistoe]

By the way Helen, I was not referencing the "lines behind the dog", these are dogs that were sires. Direct sons and daughters.

Anyway, the premise is that not having the retrieve in a field trial stake is seriously hurting the breeds ability to function as a retriever as a whole. At this time we have one dog that did not retrieve (discounting knines political answer). I don't want to hear about something you heard about. Dogs you have owned or had direct experience hunting, training or trialing with that are sired by some of the best the field trial community has to offer.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

American Field does not require it for their Champions. I think the retrieve in hunt tests make sense and it showcases the abilities of the trainer more than the dog. I have seen call backs in other pointing breed trials and honestly some of them are a joke the way they are carried out. I think field trials show the natural hunting abilities of the pointing breeds and that is what we breed for. Retrieving breeds are a different matter. Just a personal observation and opinion.

[ezzy333]

slistoe,

One of the dogs I have today is the first Brit I have ever had that is reluntant or slow to retrieve. This would cover over a hundred Brits over the past 40 years. He is a trial bred dog from excellent breeding. One thing I never did with any continental breed was train a pup to retrieve. I found it was much better to have them solid on point before you did anything with retrieving. So yes, all of the Brits in the past retrieved naturally but Brenda's comment sure does bother me. If what she says is true and I am sure it is, then yes, I will say the retrieving instinct has lessened considerably in our trial dogs. And all things considered that only makes sense.

Ezzy

[WildRose]

Scott of the britts I saw (quite a few) twenty years ago and beyond I can't remember a single one that wasn't a good natural retriever. Of those I see today, less than half are. Of those that I was around way back, I can only remember one or two that weren't excellent dogs at tracking down wounded runners (mostly pheasant hunting in those days), of those I see in the field today very few are what I would consider to be good or great at such work.

Some things in genetics are fairly predictable and any traits that quite being a priority amongst breeders are going to fall by the way side and often be lost.

It's not just a Brittany thing, the same thing is occurring in all our pointing breeds. I've just seen more of an increase in the lack of retrieving instinct in Britts than in the other continental breeds which surprised me. 20 plus years ago I knew a lot of guys that hunted pointers but kept a Britt for finding the dead birds and doing the retrieves since they WERE so good at it. Until about fifteen years ago I'd never even heard of a GSP needing to be FF'd wheras today it's the rule in many lines rather than the exception.

Field trialing is not the only culprit though. As we have fewer people with easy access to wild bird hunting preserves, trialing, and hunt testing will continue to gain strength as the "primary venues" for more and more pointing dog owners and they simply don't offer the occasion for those tough tracks and retrieves because the birds lack that same drive to survive so prevalent in their wild cousins.

I consider hunting dead and retrieving to be just as important as any other aspect of bird dog work and something breeders should pay more attention to, but they are not skills that are going to win many trials as more and more they are becoming irrelevant in trialing hence there is little need/desire to concentrate on those traits in trial breeding. CR

[Flush]

I understand the concern about loosing natural retrieve in a breed

BUT.......

I don't think having a required retrieve (as it is currently done) in a field trial is going to change anything. In NSTRA, where live birds are shot "on course" and retrieving is required, Setters and Pointers are absolutely as effective as the "natural" breeds. The reason is that virtually ALL of the dogs are FF. I don't think retrieving requirements, as they currently exist, in pointing dog trials are really going to prove natural retrieve, nor are they going to put to the test the real tracking, finding, retrieving instincts that hunters really want when they talk about "natural retrieve".

Again, I will use NSTRA is my case in point. Pointers and Setters haven't had retrieving as a requirement in their AF trials for about a century. Those dogs, coming straight from AF breeding, have no problem competing very successfully in NSTRA where retrieving is actually a big part of the competition. Unless you make the retrieving requirement quite demanding and sophisiticated, I have no faith it will do anything to preserve strong natural retrieving instincts in a line of dogs. Seeing a dog perform it's retrieves in NSTRA is basically no indication of what natural retrieving talent that dog was born with. There is no way you will be able to force trainers/handlers to not train for the retrieve.

Breeders can and probably should breed for natural retrieve, as they will know how natural it is, but I don't think you will prove much one way or another by having the basic retrieving requirement in a field trial. Therefore I am actually with them just leaving it out. As was posted in the quote by Karen, this is the same basic conclusion many trial organizers came to long ago.

-Flush

[ezzy333]

Flush,

I think you may be right and it is just another area where I think field trials have hurt some of our breeds as much as they have helped. It sure isn't popular to even suggest that good hunting dogs don't have to come and often don't from field trial breeding. But you can make a very strong point that single issue breeding does more harm than good and that goes for strickly show breeding and strickly trial breeding as well.

When Karen indicated that she felt that many DC just are not as good as a specially bred dog I think it points out exactly what we are saying. Way too many people have lost their way and forget the Brit or the GSP are all around dogs and the best of the best are the ones that do everything well and not the dog that is the best in just one area.

If you want the biggest ranging bird finding machine buy a pointer but if you want a friendly small dog that does everything well buy a Brit or if you like the pointer type but a dog that is more versatile but slower than the pointer buy a GSP. Then after you make your choice breed for the best within your breed and stop trying to make them some other breed.

Ezzy

[Karen]

When Karen indicated that she felt that many DC just are not as good as a specially bred dog I think it points out exactly what we are saying. Way too many people have lost their way and forget the Brit or the GSP are all around dogs and the best of the best are the ones that do everything well and not the dog that is the best in just one area.

What I said is that most DC's excell in either the field or the show ring and that VERY few truly do both equally as well, and I stand by that statement.

I never said anything about DC's not being "as good" as anything else, and even pointed out that I'm hoping to put DC's on 2, if not 3, of my dogs.

Please do not put words in my mouth or take things that I've said out of context.

Those in the Brittany fancy that would like retrieving included in more trials nationwide should approach their OWN club about offering retrieving stakes first. If it's that big of a pet peeve, get the support of the others within the fancy and change it.

[mm]

slistoe

What I was trying to say is that my dog is a part time trial dog and a full time hunting dog and a house dog. This is in my opinion different in training a full time trial dog. I am not an expert but from what I observed is a lot of trial dogs never retrieve a bird, they are run from horseback at great range and many are kennal dogs. I met a guy who told me the right way to have a good trial dog was kennel to field and back to kenel nothing else. I am just a beginer in all of this and I am most likely trying to do too much of everything and in the end being not good at anything. But we are having lots of fun.

[Yawallac]

Some things in genetics are fairly predictable and any traits that quite being a priority amongst breeders are going to fall by the way side and often be lost.

I don't believe you can breed retrieving instinct out of a pointing dog. If you could than Pointers would have lost it long ago. I do believe that you can diminish it by emphasizing other traits, but my personal belief is that those traits are somehow genetically connected. I haven't worked with a Pointer pup yet that didn't display retrieving instinct. It does require nurturing, but it is always there.

In the AF NBHA Championships the dogs are required to retrieve. No tossed birds, the bird must be pointed and then shot so that the dog can also display that he is steady to fall.

[ezzy333]

Karen, sorry if I misinterupted what you said or meant. And I wasn't being critical of it but mearly using your statement as an example.

Ezzy

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Wagonmaster, you are right, all of our trials are dual sanctioned AF and AKC. We have never had a Gun Dog, Amateur Gun Dog, or All Age stake that was not a retrieving stake. Limited stakes are typically non-retrieving. By definition, a dog, to enter a Limited stake, must have had a placement in a broke stake. Most, at least in GSPs, have had their placement at a GSP event. Therefore, they've handled the obligatory retrieve. Further, most dogs run in Limited stakes are FCs or AFCs and don't need retreiving points. Don't begin to think GSPs don't retrieve at trials. Both of my FCs have around 20 retrieving points both ways.

Ezzy, attend a few GSP trials, preferably Booneville, Eureka, or hour championships, and then tell us how much "slower" the GSP of today is than the Pointer.

[Razor]

I would agree with you on the DC thing except when it comes to Britts. Numerous Brittany DC's have also won the National Field Championship. Many do both very well.

Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam is the only dog that I know of of any breed to hold both the National Field and Bench Championships(1971) at the same time.

[Trekmoor]

Since I started this ball rolling it is only fair to say that in Britain we have retrieving problems with Brittanies. These dogs are all recent or fairly recent French imports. Most of these dogs are very good hunters and pointers, their pace is usually very good and their range is variable.
They tend to be weak in retrieve instinct possibly because many Continental handlers/breeders now F.F. their trial dogs and the winners get bred from without really knowing how much of the retrieve is "natural."
To counteract this and to boost what retrieve instinct there is, it is now fairly widely accepted practice in British trial circles to train the retrieve to a fairly high standard before a pup is allowed any hunting. If a pup wants to do something then that something is retrieve ! Every trial for the versatile breeds held here requires a dog to retrieve the game it has pointed at least once during the trial. Several retrieves are quite possible and that always includes a water retrieve if the dog is to be placed.

Since we do not use F.F. it puts a bit of pressure on handlers and breeders to work and breed dogs that like retrieving naturally.

Ours is not a perfect trial system either, I doubt if such a thing exists. I tend to think that much as I like trialling, we still must try to breed dogs that the average hunter can train and work. The best dogs with the best trainers will still win the most trials but we lesser mortals will have good all-rounder working dogs.

Bill T.