Field Trial question

corytch · Post by **corytch** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:37 pm

do i have to run my brit in puppy derbys to get her a champion? or can i wait untill she is two to start entering her in trials

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:39 pm

You can wait.

Ezzy

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:42 pm

You don't have to wait until she is two, if you think she is ready. Running her in the derby might help getting to situtation such as gallery,horses,etc.
I can probably think of at least two people that wish they had puppy or derby points. Not good when you have a 9 pt. dog and finish the season with several 2nds.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:58 pm

Go to one first and see what it is about, then run her.

Have fun ask questions at appropriate times and who knows, you may like it - and your dog may be good enough to place.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:27 pm

Old wives tale, "Of you need the puppy/derby points to finish, the dog probably will never finish". I know lots of people who have needed a point or 2 and did not finish.

Just some fun intended.

The puppy/derby will help you as much as the young dog if you are not experienced. Keep the dog forward as that is where you win from, the front.

Pepper

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:50 pm

For most people who generally train alone or with a single partner I think experience of running dogs in puppy stakes with no birds planted is invaluable.

I've seen some really nice dogs running in their firs few trials that were so intimidated by all the horses people, whistles, hollering etc that they never got fifty yards from their handler and embarassed the handler.

I think win, lose, or draw getting the young prospect used to all of that early on is extremely important.

I do think that for a lot of dogs, probably the majority of them that get run in puppy/derby stakes with planted birds too often it is nothing but a wreck waiting to happen. Few dogs "need to catch a few" to get fired up and excited and for those very few I think "need it" I want it in a controlled training situation where I can stop it before it gets out of hand, not in a trial situation where all you can do is laugh or cry.

If I had my puppy and derby points on Abbey, all she'd need is one 2 point win in a retrieving stake to already be finished. If I had them on Moose he'd need one more retrieving win in. I started after they were beyond that stage. Unless I see it causing problems I will do all I can to get those puppy and derby points from now on. CR

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:52 am

The points aside, I will second what Charlie said about the experience being invaluable to the dog and the owner. Experienced trailers may not need the exposure, but even they will run their young dogs because the dogs need to learn about the conditions under which they will be expected to compete.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:47 am

do i have to run my brit in puppy derbys to get her a champion? or can i wait untill she is two to start entering her in trials

No...Puppy/Derby points are not needed to finish an FC title. In fact, only 4 points, a max of 2 pts. from puppy stakes and 2 pts. from the Derby stakes are carried over to the title. There have been quite a few FCs that never had puppy or derby points to their credit.

That being said however, I have to completely agree that taking the opportunity to watch these stakes and maybe run your dog if you feel that he/she can be competitive will give you both invaluable experience, if nothing else.

Be fore warned however.....the first time you and your dog get around a course well enough to catch the eye of the judges and garner yourself a placement ribbon. YOU WILL BE HOOKED and it will be all downhill from there.

The main focus is to have fun with your dog at whatever level you feel comfortable.

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:07 am

Ok, not having done this before, what does a puppy have to do in a puppy derby/stakes?

Carla

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:13 am

Hotpepper wrote:Old wives tale, "Of you need the puppy/derby points to finish, the dog probably will never finish". I know lots of people who have needed a point or 2 and did not finish.

Just some fun intended.

The puppy/derby will help you as much as the young dog if you are not experienced. Keep the dog forward as that is where you win from, the front.

Pepper

Ditto.

Of the three FC Gordons we've had, one has had 2 derby points.

Personally I don't want to own the FT dog that NEEDS the juvenile points. But I do run them in the juvenile stakes for the experience, until I sense problems are coming.

zodiakgsps · Post by **zodiakgsps** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:18 pm

I also find puppy/derby stakes great experience for a young dog.
I (personally) try to run puppy/derby now after what happened to my Mac dog. He only ran 2 puppy stakes ever, won one, second in the other(small stakes, 1 point each). He earned many open & Am wins & placements having 3 retrieving majors.
Left only needing 1 open point & 2 am points, he broke a leg, had he just one other puppy or derby win he would be finished.

(I'm still kicking myself for not running him more in juvy stakes)
I should note if my pup isn't a good puppy/derby candidate for some reason, it will only run one or 2 times for experience & then wait until it's ready for GD stakes. I will also not keep running them once they aqcuire their points.

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:58 pm

I've been on both sides of this river...

First trial dog did not do puppy/derby. In fact didn't do much more than point a few pigeons and dove before he went to the field trainers at 3-1/2 years old. He broke quickly- not easily -as he LOVED to chase and it took the trainer awhile to get through to him that chasing wasn't the name of the game.

He would have greatly benefited from the puppy/derby experience that he missed. He had to get used to all of these new trial grounds as an adult dog. He had to get used to loud-mouthed bracemate handlers. He had to get used to the horses, the commotion, the chain gang, the dog wagon, etc. all as an adult dog- Much tougher on them as adults to learn the game. His first stake ever the bracemates handler did nothing but hack hack hack and everytime Jet started to make a move he heard this hacking and figured someone was in trouble and it was probably him. Had he run juvenile stakes that never would have bothered him. On different grounds he had issues because he'd never run up and down hills before. We live in a very flat area of Ohio so that was all new to him. These are all things he could have learned and adapted to much easier as a young dog. Thankfully he's a quick learner and he's become a successful gun dog.

Second trial dog we knew we were going to run in puppy/derby and we did from the day she turned 6 months old. And we had an absolute blast. I wouldn't give up her juvenile career for anything. She had a great time, learned a bunch and took us along for the ride. Her first time on the ground was a total disaster. All she did was eat horse apples and bark at the horses. Second time down a little better. She ran a little and started to get the idea. A month into trialing and she was a monster screaming her happiness all the way to the breakaway! She's now in the middle of the breaking process and hopefully she'll make it as an adult dog. But if she doesn't - we have a bunch of great memories, nice pictures, rosettes and plaques to remind us of what a good time we all had.

They don't all make it as adult dogs. If you have the time, resources and energy and any interest in field trialing at all, I suggest taking your young dog and doing some juvenile stakes. Walking stakes are a great place to start. Since we don't have horses we attend as many walking trials as we can get to. The dogs have a great time and so do we. We've just started a new puppy and I'm looking forward to his juvenile career as well and hoping we have just as good a time and so does he. I know at the very least he will gain invaluable experience on different grounds, around the horses, hearing other handlers holler and yell, etc. You can't train that sort of thing- it has to be experienced. Kristi

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:59 pm

Well my opinion is that puppy/derby points are the biggest waste of time and money imaginable. Other than to learn to be around horses and a gallery and all the noise and what some find easy point's they offer nothing. As I recall the entry fees are the same, perhaps a bit less (?) in puppy. There are birds in the derby that can well teach your dog to catch birds on the ground and all there is to gain in the point category is two lousy points. If you truly have a competitive quality dog, those two points are meaningless.

If on the other hand you hold out till the dog is two or even three and train and hunt it to the same degree of performance expected of a trial dog, you'll waste a few trials getting the dog used to the commotion maybe but you'll have a dog without introducing all the negatives puppy /derby's allow. BTW, start in gun dog and let your dog open at it's own pace if it will. If you really have an AA, you won't need to encougage it to run, just give it opertunity.

If this is all just a hoot to have fun, have fun. Run the puppy/derby's and take things as they come. But those two points you get mean nothing to a truely competative dog.

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:20 pm

Wow Don just shoot me out of the water on my very first post! LOL! No wonder I've been on this forum for months and kept my mouth shut til now!

We field trial because it is FUN. If we didn't have fun. If our dogs didn't have fun- We wouldn't do it. It's not something we MUST do. It's something we want to do. And I've wasted $35 or $40 on much more worthless pursuits than watching a young dog have some fun. I like Delmar's book where he talks about letting the young dogs chase and have fun. Guess I'm just a fun-seeking kind of gal, lol....Gee what I wouldn't give to have all that beer money back now! LOL! Everyone is in the game for a different reason I'd imagine. And everyone has different experiences. We could do things differently - and not have near as much FUN! LOL! Kristi

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:26 pm

You didn't get shot out of the water. More are going to agree with you than me!

I have simply watched to many dogs,,,screwed up in puppy/derbys for the sake of what was concidered easy points. The rule when I was running was to get the points fast then get out of them. Few people wanted to risk the negatives they bring.

Welcome aboard! BTW, that was a great first post. We'll expect a lot from you!!!

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:38 pm

I agree about overdoing it. And our trainer told us from the get-go to "get the points and then STOP". And we followed his advice. Afterall- now it's his job to break her, lol...

In our experience- It was difficult to start out in the broke dog stakes which is where we started. Hubby had to learn how to handle the dog who was basically very green himself, learn all the rules, deal with handling a horse in horseback stakes, etc. And of course is always learning new things in the game. Running the baby was good for both of us in that there is little pressure in the juvenile stakes. Maybe at the classics and so forth with a bunch of pro trainers it's a different ballgame. But at the level we play at- people running their babies are pretty laid back about it.

I know of people who totally skip puppy/derby and have had great success. So I know that way works too- it just wouldn't work for us. Kristi

mm · Post by mm » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:13 pm

I have run my dog in puppy and derby and I am just a beginer. I have enjoyed it very much and we have placed 5 times a first, three seconds and a third. But I think I picked up some big problems because of the poor flying birds. Be prepared for birds that cant fly and put your dog in a siduation where he can easily catch a bird. This happened to me several times and I finally stopped going. I will return but not until my dog is steady enough and for my next dog I will only run in puppy with no birds planted and only derby if the dog is steady and under control. I think I made a beginer mistake as after talking to more experienced people I was warned about derby.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:01 pm

I've never had problems with dogs after running them as puppy/derbies.
It gives them ground time, and if they catch a bird or two it's not the end of the world. However, I don't campaign my dogs as juveniles - they get a few trials and then we're done til broke dog stakes. If I pick up points, fine, but I don't chase them. I have seen a few nice dogs come unglued after going for things like derby-of-the-year awards.

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:32 pm

Thanks for the welcome by the way Don! I'll try to post just often enough to get "shot at" now and then! LOL! Just Kidding. Differences of opinion make the world a whole lot less boring. Kinda like people preferring different breeds of dogs or games to play with them...Kristi

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:30 pm

Jetto,

I think anyone is gonna have a tuff time taking a shot at you. You are a breath of fresh air. If I'd have know that, I'd have taken a shot at you long ago to see if I could get you out of the closet!

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:53 pm

jetto wrote:In our experience- It was difficult to start out in the broke dog stakes which is where we started. Hubby had to learn how to handle the dog who was basically very green himself, learn all the rules, deal with handling a horse in horseback stakes, etc. And of course is always learning new things in the game. Running the baby was good for both of us in that there is little pressure in the juvenile stakes. Maybe at the classics and so forth with a bunch of pro trainers it's a different ballgame. But at the level we play at- people running their babies are pretty laid back about it.

There is the bottom line for the new person, they don't really understand what's going on and they get intimidated. Then they either let their dog get out of hand or try to over control it. Many times they are afraid to ask questions for fear of feeling stupid but, we all started with the same experience. New handlers make more mistake's, quite often, than new dogs and they seem to be intimidated longer.

I recall a young lady in the last trial I judged that was at an absolute loss. She had a very nice dog, AGD, and it was doing a fine job. She took it out because she wasn't sure what to do in a situation where her dog had a find and the bird actually ran out. She finally asked if she could relocate her dog but the bird was long gone by then. After the stake, she came over and asked what she should have done. We talked about it awhile and I hope it helped her.

I've found that a lot of judges don't like to be questioned on anything they do. Especially in armature stakes with real armatures, the judge can make a big difference for the new comer, but you have to be willing to talk to them. Early on I had a bunch that wouldn't talk to me and it was tuff to figure out till I finally made some friends that were willing to share. I was perhaps unfair in those armature stakes I judged, as I knew who the armatures really were and who were armature by definition only. I cut the real ones a lot of slack. One I even gave a second to one and had he not made the mistake he'd made, not his dog, he'd have won the thing or the other judge and I would still be there chatting.

long as I'm this far off subject let me unload a bit more. I don't think that once someone starts running in an open stake they should be allowed to return to armature stakes. That, it seems to me should be the entry level for new people coming in. I had a friend, a retired pro that wanted to handle one of my dogs to an armature ch. He didn't for as far as I was concerned, it was unfair advantage all the way around. Pro trained dog being handled by another pro that quit training running against newcomer's? Kind of rubs me wrong!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:54 pm

I don't think that once someone starts running in an open stake they should be allowed to return to armature stakes. That, it seems to me should be the entry level for new people coming in. I had a friend, a retired pro that wanted to handle one of my dogs to an armature ch. He didn't for as far as I was concerned, it was unfair advantage all the way around. Pro trained dog being handled by another pro that quit training running against newcomer's? Kind of rubs me wrong!

Yes that is a situation that is totally wrong! NO way once someone is a pro-handler and has accepted money for training/running dogs then he/she should never be allowed to run an amateur stake again. I also know of a couple of guys who call themselves amateurs but they are really pro's. Makes me very angry when I have to run up against these guys in amateur stakes!

But on the other hand when I run my dogs I enter both Open and Amateur stakes. I'm a total amateur and have never been paid nor have I ever run another person's dog. I figure that since I am at a trial why not enter what I can. Why go all that way for just one stake???

As far as Puppy and Derby stakes get in and get out. Get the points and then stop running them.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:14 pm

Amateurs have a real advantage in a lot of cases over pro's actually. You can take 4 amateur points and put them towards an FC, you can also use open points towards an AFC.

There are a lot of "real amateurs who are very successful in open stakes. As long as they are NOT taking money for training they are within the rules and I'm all for it.

I know of several phony amateurs that something should be done about, but no one seems to be willing to "cause trouble". Fortunately that kind of lack of integrity is not wide spread and we don't have to run into it very often.

I would have no problem seeing the rules changed in some respects though. Although I'd never entered a dog in a hunt test or trial, I had been raising and training (for the public) hunting dogs for 15 years so the day I entered my first trial I was "a pro". My first three bracemates were Keith Gullege, Bryan Long, and Dennis Brath! HA! Talk about intimidating to the "new guy". I survived it though just fine, placed quite a few dogs and got some wins that first season and it made me a better handler and trainer I think much sooner than I would have been other wise. CR

larue · Post by **larue** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:50 am

must be a different world around here,I have found the am stakes to be harder than the open stakes,due to the unwritten rule that finished dogs are never ran in open,but are run in am stakes.
Add the fact that we have many real am handlers who are as good as the pro's and that am stakes are often a prize stake it tends to make them very competitive stakes.
Pro's dont run there dogs in open once they get there fc,they move them into limited stakes,as they have a string of unfinished dogs to put there fc's on.There is no incentive to not run an am dog once he has finished his fc in am stakes,and many pro's have a am handler handle a few am dogs,and you can bet these will be the best ones on his string.
I will tell you this,just run your dog in what you want to,you never know how it will shake out,enter everything and you never know.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:07 am

I started my young Wire in P/D until he got his points, fortunatly it was not more than about 3 trials apiece and he had them. I then broke him over the summer and still had a fall season before he turned 2 so I put him in a couple more as a broke dog, just for the experience. I knew maturity wise he was not ready for Open yet and if he made a bobble it would not matter. Now we have to play in grown up stuff!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:38 am

must be a different world around here,I have found the am stakes to be harder than the open stakes

I think the most competetive are Amateur Walking GD stakes. If you go to one with between 14 and 25 dogs you better bring alot if you want to be in the money.

As far as running puppy/derby, go ahead and do it but dont overdo it. There are a few exceptions but I think you will see in general that dogs ran all the time to get a puppy/derby Dog of the Year somehwere more often than not dont turn out to be great dogs when they mature.

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:42 am

I think it depends on a couple of things- the pro vs amateur discussion that is. Depends on where you trial at and what breed(s) you trial with. We have two breeds- Brittanys and one Irish Setter. The Brittany trials we go to are dominated by amateur handlers. The setter trials we go to are dominated by pro trainers. We have a better time at the Brittany trials by the way, lol...And we are friends with most of the pro's (including our own trainer who is a setter guy) who go to the setter trials. It's just that it's a different atmosphere at the Brittany trials with less pro's involved. You'll see more walking stakes offered at the Brittany trials and most everyone is running their own dogs. The pro's running huge strings of dogs don't have as much time to help you as the amateurs who are there with a few of their own. I think attending pro dominated trials when you first start out would be very intimidating.

By the way, we went to our first shorthair trial this past season and we had an excellent time. In fact the club members went out of their way to make us feel welcome and make sure we had a good time and we did!

I will say without the help we've gotten from other amateurs and some pro's- we probably wouldn't be playing the game anymore or at least not as much as we do. And the hubby has asked judges afterward also "what happened out there and how can I improve?" and everytime he's gotten a good and honest response. He's gotten the most help however from the experienced people who have scouted for him. They have been willing to say "hey you should have done this differently or your dog was picked up because". That kind of info is invaluable when you really don't know what you should have done in a certain situation. Kristi

jetto · Post by **jetto** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:45 am

By the way- is there anyway I can stay "just a pup" cause having just had a birthday I'm really digging seeing that!

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:44 am

WildRose wrote:Amateurs have a real advantage in a lot of cases over pro's actually. You can take 4 amateur points and put them towards an FC, you can also use open points towards an AFC.

CR

Charlie, better go read the guidelines about bringing open points to the amatuer side.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:09 am

You're right wind. I thought you could use 2 open pts towards AFC but I was wrong. Having never been an amateur I don't keep up with that side of it well enough.CR

Rodger · Post by **Rodger** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:53 pm

Original mngsp wrote:

I think the most competetive are Amateur Walking GD stakes. If you go to one with between 14 and 25 dogs you better bring alot if you want to be in the money.

Chris, Those walking stakes are a lot of fun and a great way for a newbie to test the sport out. I entered one of those down here in 06 as my first broke dog stake. Since I didn’t have a horse I thought it would be good experience for me, and since we were on foot was hoping that my dog would get around and handle just as he does when were hunting. He did. Won the stake defeating some 20 or so nice GD’s and SD’s. It was my first broke stake and first win. Icing on the cake was that a couple of weeks prior my dog had just won the NGSPA All Age Quail Ch and prior to that was runner up in Eureka. How many dogs can win a 1 hour AA Ch, go quail hunting for a couple of weekends and turn around and win a Amateur Walking Gun Dog stake with a novice handler? If you can’t tell I like to crow a little about that one.

Mostly because I’ve heard so many put down the AA dog as a dog that won’t handle and you can’t hunt over. Right?

Derbies are some of the most enjoyable stakes to watch. Pure potential on display.

I’ve got a new 10 month pup that I look forward to running in puppy/derby stakes this spring. If he starts catching birds though, his puppy/derby career will be a short one.

Rodger

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:03 pm

How many dogs can win a 1 hour AA Ch, go quail hunting for a couple of weekends and turn around and win a Amateur Walking Gun Dog stake with a novice handler?

Rodger

I remember when that happened. Even though I have never sen Hud on the ground or met you I was tickled pink hearing that. I told alot of my friends about the "AA run off" winning an amateur walking GD stake.

A good dog will do all thats asked of it, just part of the talent is in the physical abilities, the rest is in the "smarts"

I have a youngster that I'm looking forward to running in some puppy stakes this spring to see what we have too. Have fun with youngster!!

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:51 pm

Chris,

There are great many pretenders in FT's that believe that AA dogs don't have handler. When in fact a class AA dog is the epitome of handle.

Dan

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:29 pm

Dan

I dont know if I've ever told you the story of my AA delima. I have struggled with what my idea of a AA dog would look like. As you know we are kinda limited up this way in what a true AA dog is by our grounds. In most cases the dogs you see in AA stakes are the same ones you see in GD stakes, except when given thier head might be a nice shooting dog.

Last fall I saw what is now my vision of an AA, I'm sure as I see more it will get refined a bit. This dog/handler combo was a joy to see. This dog was forward to the extremes of the course and always showed up where he should and did this with the handler riding quietly and leasurly the entrie trip around. No panic, no yelling, heck he hardly ever sent the scout out.

I'm not ready to own much less handle on yet nut I think i understand why we have them and the rarity of a true AA dog.