Field Trial Handling Mistakes

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:12 pm

This is for all of you judges out there or anyone that would like to contribute. What are the most common handling mistakes you see in the broke dog stakes?

Thanks
Terry

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:49 pm

Not taking the time that is needed to get the situation they are facing completed successfully. To big of a hurry to flush the bird, hurry up and get going to the next.

The quality of showing the dog helps the great dog look even better.

Pepper

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:55 pm

When your dog makes a mistake, assuming the judge actually saw it happen.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:38 pm

Jerry your right on. You see alot of people in "panic mode". Relax and breathe, if you have done your work everything should go well. Don't lose your mind and do things differently in the trial than you do training.

Your job is to confidently show the judge a "winner" dog.

It's a lot like you hear them say about an NFL quarterback's development. That after awhile the game slows down. This is true in FTing too. Try to be calm and see what is happening in the whole situation. Will you make mistakes? Heck yes, everyone does. Just learn from them and get better in the future.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:21 pm

What are the most common handling mistakes

Rushing in and being in too big of a hurry to get to the dog and to flush the bird. As a judge I don't want to have to ride at Mach 9 to reach a dog that is standing.....if the dog is broke he should remain steady until his handler gets there. Picking up the pace from the flat walk to a steady gait is acceptable to me but I do not/WILL NOT gallop to a find! Give your dog the chance to show the judge just how well mannered he is!!!!!! Show him OFF!!

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:23 pm

Probably the panic mode that causes it but I've seen more people handle themselves out of a trial than you could imagine. A lot of people seem to think the dog is being judged on how well it handles. Others that should know better see the dog getting ready to make a mistake and they handle the dog right into it! Unbelieveable!! Overhandling is the biggest mistake I see.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:37 pm

I agree. Most new handlers overhandle. The worst mistake in my view is to train your dog to handle with whistle commands and then spend the whole stake whistling at the dog, go here, go there, and then when it doesn't, whistling harder, and then yelling. Worse yet is two handlers that have trained their dogs to handle on a whistle, then they get in a whistling contest because both dogs handle to both whistles.

Then when they are done running they complain to everyone in earshot that the other handler interfered. Or they post it here.

Let the dog run to objectives and work the area. A whistle is for one thing, if that, and that is to tell the dog to roll.

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:42 pm

Thanks for all the input and I hope more of you will also add to this as well.
I will be running Greta in our 1st broke stake this spring and I'm really excited about showing her off. I have learned a lot from so many people on this board.

Thanks
Terry

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:23 pm

This weekend will be my 8 & 9th broke dog stakes. A couple things I have learned so far is getting your self ready prior to the running of the dog. Not being mentally prepared for anything that may happen can hurt you. I learned the hard way.

Watch your dog! Especially during the flush. The dog the pu$$y foots around may cost you a placement. Also during the kill. If you are keeping an eye on the dog you can read him and hopefully stop him/her from making a mistake.

I hope that my dog is ready for this weekend. With 33 dogs entered in the open the judges have a whole lot to look at. I just hope that they are looking at my dog more than the rest.

Good luck at your upcoming trials

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:01 pm

I've gotten over excited and blew it more times than I care to admit. It's pretty easy to get caught up in the moment and lose your head.

The best advice I've been chewed out about and was said above is:
Trial like you train.
I couldn't sit down for a week after that A$$ chewing!

Just got caught up in the moment and let my brain go out the window!
Hurt my dog in the process.

PS. Good Luck to you Casper!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:35 am

I've made just about all of them. Overhandling is the most common.

One of the best ways to irritate a judge is to keep pushing the pace after I they've said, "let's keep it at a walk, I want to see the dogs run not your horse". When you find yourself a half mile ahead of your judge wondering what's taking him so long to get to your dog's find think a minute, that's probably why.

When a judge makes a "suggestion" like, "he's doing fine just relax" that means "Hey I really like your dog and I wish you'd be quiet and put that whistle in your pocket so I can see him run", so listen! Boy did I screw that one up several times when I was first getting started. CR

PacificPointer · Post by **PacificPointer** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:52 am

Kiki's Mom wrote:
What are the most common handling mistakes
Show him OFF!!

Helen.... I finally found your videos

Casper........... I'll be down in your area DH_RENO

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:07 am

As a judge, once the dog is pointed, overuse of the whoa comand sure does turn me off. You have to do what you have to do, but screaming whoa from 300 yards in is not the answer.

Show the "broke" dog off.

Pepper

This thread has real possibilites of getting really good.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:57 am

Thing to keep in mind is that your there to show off your dogs abilities, not your handling abilities. You'll get no plus marks for a lot of handling. You might get a lot of negative marks. They want to see your dog, not listen to you.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:38 pm

As a judge I hate to see the overhandling in this way:

1. Too much singing, yodling or whistling to the dog. Always annoying and never impressive.

2. Too much pressure on a dog. You'll know it when you see it.

3. Riding or walking too far in front of the judge. Can't judge what you can't see. I know the difference between you pushing your dog and the dog doing the work.

4. Be honest. Don't give the judges a reason to think you are pulling one over on them (go back to #3).

5. Taking a non-productive too early because you don't trust your dog (I know, I know, I know, I know).

6. Take your time and produce that bird, but watch your dog. Don't leave them on an island. Gentle reminders to be steady or fine in my book. Don't scream at the dog - WHOAAA!!!!!! If I hear it from across the course - it's never a good thing.

7. Don't assume what you have seen until you check with the judge (i.e. pick your dog up for something you thought it di - but didn't do).

8. Don't ignore what the judges are asking or telling you. Be receptive and friendly.

I'm sure there are more I forgot.......

Justin

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:23 pm

Thanks everyone!! this is really great information, I hope people keep adding to the list.

Terry

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:35 pm

I wouldn't call it a true 'mistake' as I wouldn't penalize a dog for it, but one thing that can get old after a while is when the handler points out their dogs moves too much. Sometimes it's just a simple point in the direction of the dog, sometimes it's accompanied by a narrative - you know, just in case the judge can see the dog but can't grasp what he's doing. "There's my dog, Judge - 200 yards at 1:00 and moving forward. Very nice move!!"

Thanks!! I never would have figured that out on my own!!! What would I do without ya???

Either way - when it's done every 5 minutes by every handler in the stake - it starts getting old. But hey - maybe that's just me.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:24 pm

Oh, I've had some bracemates handlers give a better performance than their dogs. I even see it at Hunt tests and it makes me laugh.

Justin

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:45 pm

I'll let y'all know my mistakes when I get back on monday

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:21 pm

Good luck Casp

Ezzy

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:35 am

Posted yesterday, but it didn't post, just to add a few at this point...

-riding the horsepath, not considering this a training moment and pushing your dog to objectives somewhat, particularly a young dog.
-riding too fast and leaving your dog behind.
-not having a visual on your dog and looking back and hollering, just keep riding and show confidence in your dog. Dog may still show from behind, but don't throw your voice backward, dog keys off the sound and location. Look forward and be confident, usually dog is to the front, if not, you ain't winning anyway.
-riding slow and showing how broke the dog is, getting excited and "whoop whoop" ing shows lack of confidence in the dog's training.
-hacking instead of singing.
-leaving a dog down when you know he just took birds out, failed to back, all the name of trying to win a $2 ribbon. If it's the nationals, leave him down and hope the judge didn't see it, weekend trial, pick him up, period.
-PUT ON A SHOW-it's your stage, do everything you can do to make your dog look good, be confident, ride tall, look like your dog has the stake won.

Finally, to the gallery-commenting on dogs, riding up judge's rears, telling them how wonderful your dog's performance just was, pointing out dogs coming from behind. Keep your mouth shut in the gallery. Judges see more than you think they do and don't need your comments. Hurts you far more than you know.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:33 pm

HEY Casper....GOOD LUCK and go kick butt !~!~!!

1. Too much singing, yodling or whistling to the dog. Always annoying and never impressive.

AMEN TO THAT!!!! There is absolutely NOTHING WORSE then a handler who sqallors, whistles, screams, hollars, sings and in general terms DOESN'T SHUT UP and let his dog WORK!!~! MOST ESPECIALLY in a Gun dog stake where the standard specifically says "with a minimum of noise"!!!!

Gun dogs should be working for their hander at all times and unless the terrain or cover warrants some talking to the dog, I prefer a handler who shows that he has confidence in his dog's abilities.

The dog that needs to be sung to all the way around the course is not my cup of tea.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:17 pm

Well I only managed a 2nd place in Am Gun Dog. Judges carried my dog till the last few braces of the Open but better weather conditions allowed a few other dogs to show better than mine. Oh well, I get 'em this weekend.

What I learned,

If a situation arises that is new and you are not sure how to handle it ASK. If your dog is broke you have plenty of time to get an answer. Judges will know you dont know better and will advise you in the right direction.

If you ask a judge what to do and the judge cant really give you a very good answer than take control of the situation and tell them this is what you are going to do. If they dont like it they will instruct you otherwise.

Be prepared to make a quick decision. You might have to do this on your own without help and you dont want to set your dog up to fail.

Carry your own source of time. Knowing how much time is left in the stake will allow you to make a move to show your dog better at the right time. Like watering him at 25 min. so your dog can have a strong finish. This is what I didnt do

I learn something new each time I go to a trial. Dang this stuff is fun

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:48 pm

CONGRATS Casper! Sounds like you had a pretty fun weekend.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:40 pm

How many dogs in the stake? Did you pick up any points?

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:38 pm

Unfortunately no I didnt. Am Gun was a small stake only 9 dogs

I am going to go an show some brittanys how its done this weekend. I will see what kinda mistakes I can muster up there

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:44 pm

Sounds like you had a good showing there Casper!! Congrats!!

Mav........

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:45 am

Casper wrote:If a situation arises that is new and you are not sure how to handle it ASK. If your dog is broke you have plenty of time to get an answer. Judges will know you dont know better and will advise you in the right direction.

If you ask a judge what to do and the judge cant really give you a very good answer than take control of the situation and tell them this is what you are going to do. If they dont like it they will instruct you otherwise.

Be prepared to make a quick decision. You might have to do this on your own without help and you dont want to set your dog up to fail.

When I am judging, I won't tell a handler how to handle his dog, because chances are he will either misunderstand me or somehow screw up the situation and end up blaming me for his dogs poor performance. A handler is better off evaluating the situation and making a decision based on their hunting/trialing experience. A "divided" find is one of the few times that I will instruct the handlers.

BTW, congratulations on your placement!!!

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:16 am

The situation I had to deal with was a gun 1st bird. Dog got pointed and had 3 birds. Each bird flew different directions. Dog did not see the bird that the gunner killed. I didnt know how to handle the situation so that the dog could make the retrieve without chasing the other 2 birds. I asked the judge what can I or should I do. Judge didnt know what to do either and the gunner (a very experienced FTer) told me how I can handle it if the dog would do it. Judge said that would be fine. So I healed the dog forward than sent him for the retrieve. He still wanted to go to the birds he seen but I was able to get him going in the right direction and made a successful retrieve.

Thanks for the congrats

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:43 am

Regarding asking the judges questions. At the last trial I judged, years ago, I had a 1st timer down in Ama GD and her dog was on a find. She kicked around looking for the bird with no luck. While she was doing it, the bird ran out on her. I saw the bird go. The dog went soft and started looking at her. She fussed around several more min, looking at me now and again. She finally told me she couldn't find the bird and didn't know what to do. I asked her if she'd like to relocate the dog and she did. Quite a bit to late!

If your not sure, ask, especially in an Ama stake. As for the gunner that told you what to do, the gunners job is to shoot, period. I suppose in an Ama stake with a true amature I'd over look it tho. One thing that I hated to see was a handler that flushed the bird and immediately turned back to the dog. Probably because he/she didn't trust it, so eye contact intimidates the dog. Then asks the gunner "up or down". That happened and I would start looking for another dog. I see that as a form of double handling. I told gunners prior to the stake that they could not talk to the handlers at all. If you don't trust your dog to watch the bird fall, work on your dog.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:50 am

Casper wrote:The situation I had to deal with was a gun 1st bird. Dog got pointed and had 3 birds. Each bird flew different directions. Dog did not see the bird that the gunner killed. I didn't know how to handle the situation so that the dog could make the retrieve without chasing the other 2 birds. I asked the judge what can I or should I do. Judge didn't know what to do either and the gunner (a very experienced FTer) told me how I can handle it if the dog would do it. Judge said that would be fine. So I healed the dog forward than sent him for the retrieve. He still wanted to go to the birds he seen but I was able to get him going in the right direction and made a successful retrieve.

Thanks for the congrats

I'm curious. Each bird flew in a different direction, which one did the gunner shoot? The one to shoot is the one going nearest to straight away from the dogs point. Although the gunner is not supposed to help you, neither is he supposed to hinder you. Shooting a bird going away at an angle the dog is not looking is hindering the dog. Similar to shooting to soon and blowing up a bird into a pile of goo, or waiting to long and crippling a bird a long way out. The role of gunner is very important.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:01 am

Casper,

You survived a tough situation, but one that is not uncommon at all in the real world of wild bird hunting where the quail/chukar flush in coveys and the dog doesn't see the bird fall.

Don,

If a handler is making a good effort to flush, and I see the bird run off, I will usually tell them where I saw the bird so they can attempt to flush it. IMO, the dog did it's job of finding and pointing the bird, but the wind-up bird didn't do it's job of flying. I would not expect the dog to relocate if I saw the bird running on the ground, so I often tell the handler to blank their gun and continue with the course. If they dog is in the money, I will probably get a chance to see it on another bird or two.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:06 am

That's a good point and I did consider it at the time. But don't recall why I didn't do it. I've done some pretty controversial things to keep a good dog down in the past.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:17 am

Generally speaking, in a field trial, I don't tend to give the handlers much advice. If I see the bird and they don't, sure, I'll point it out. That's fairly harmless and not a big deal at all.

Other than situations like that, I typically keep my mouth shut. It's the handler's picture to paint; it's not appropriate for me to pick up a brush and help them paint it.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:15 pm

Good advice Don, I too have seen competitors deliberately block their own dogs view of a shot and falling bird - and then have the cheek to claim to the judge it was a "blind" retrieve and ask for directions to it !!!

Bill T.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:20 pm

My apologies for any confusion, I made a mistake and have replied to Dons' last post on the previous page.

Bill T.

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:42 pm

The two handling mistakes that drive me nuts are,a handler who doesn't keep his dog out front in the pocket(10-2).Never make the judge look back or to the side for your dog.And the other mistake is, coming to the trial with a dog that doesn't handle.Because at Amer. Field trials they scout the dogs more,I see a lot chasing going on a AKC trials and thats double handling.Buy the biggest running dog you can find and then make him handle,you'll win a lot of trials my friend!...vern

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:57 pm

Don wrote:I'm curious. Each bird flew in a different direction, which one did the gunner shoot? The one to shoot is the one going nearest to straight away from the dogs point. Although the gunner is not supposed to help you, neither is he supposed to hinder you. Shooting a bird going away at an angle the dog is not looking is hindering the dog. Similar to shooting to soon and blowing up a bird into a pile of goo, or waiting to long and crippling a bird a long way out. The role of gunner is very important.

The gunner shot the bird that he seen fly. What he felt was the safest. Remember it was a gun on course, as close to hunting as you can get in a FT situation. We both ran at the birds to put them up. The judge was a fairly new judge and probably didnt have the experience to make a call like that. Had the gunner not told me what to do I could have set my dog up to fail. That would be poor sportsmanship if you ask me. I did not now I could heel my dog forward to make a blind retrieve. Now I know because he piped up. If someone didnt tell me what I could really do and let me fail my dog that would anger me. Paybacks are a bitch

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:52 pm

While she was doing it, the bird ran out on her. I saw the bird go.

Don this struck me as odd. I can remember quite a few occasions where I've been beating myself to death trying to produce a bird in a plum thicket or something similar where the bird(s) ran out the other side where there was no way I could see them. In each case the judge(s) told me something to the effect of "handler the birds are running out over here". I have seen the same thing many times both as a spectator and judge as well.

Here's the question. You are the judge, you saw the bird run out, why didn't you tell the handler?

I was in a similar situation this weekend. We find Bullett standing on a small clump of bushes maybe five yards in diameter. I get there, can't see a bird walking all the way around. I make one pass right through the middle diagonal to the dog, still no bird. I go around and come straight at the dog from the front.

I NEVER see or hear the bird but the judge tells me it flew out behind me. Had the judge not told me I would have probably quit at that point or released the dog for a relocation, which probably would have sent him chasing after the flight of the bird. Had the judge not informed me but then picked up my dog for breaking or a delayed chase when I sent him and I had found out what happened later I would have blown a gasket.

Now for my biggest screw up lately. Had a dog going around doing a phenomenal job in the limited. She was in my opinion "too much dog for the stake" considering it was a walking trial but she was always in the right places, hunting hard and "doing it all" with snap and style.

We find her standing half way down a hill through a real thick mess of underbrush and trees (Thank you to my lovely wife and really good rookie scout) looking very nice.

I go to work it and have to worm through the junk to get in front of her and I see a bird running in the open about ten yards from her. The judges at this point are thirty yards or so behind and above me and I'm worried that when I get this bird in the air they may not see it so after I chase it about twenty yards in total I ask if they've seen the bird.

I get a "yes" answer. Now at this point the wise handler would have simply popped their gun, and collared their dog out of there.

I on the other hand just know ing she'd stand through about anything continued chasing the bird and finally got it to fly. My gun was frozen so it took me a few seconds to get it to fire as I was walking back to the dog. I had said nothing to the dog at this point. I still can't remember exactly what I said but it made her jump about a half a body length forward and that was more than enough I thought to take her out so I just collared her out of there.

My over confidence definitely cost her a placement and probably a win.

I've been told by much more experienced handlers than myself before that in a situation like that, once you know the judge has seen the bird and you have made a more than reasonable attempt to put the bird in the air to fire my gun and then just let the judges decide if it was "good enough".

I will certainly remember that in the future. CR