Silver labs?

[arrowbanshee]

I had never heard of these before, how can these dogs be AKC registered when it is not a coat color that they recognize?

https://www.superiorsilverlabs.com/SSL_Page.php

[g huns]

I think they register them as chocolates. They are neat looking dogs, but most I have seen have facial features remarkably similar to weimaraners. I'm sure a serious lab breeder will show up soon and say there is absolutely no such thing.

[EWSIV]

they are usually crosser to weims or so inbred that they have horrible healt defects for the price of an FCxFC breeding. I'll stick with my Labradoodles thank you

[ezzy333]

You can't get it from inbreeding. Inbreeding does not enter new genes into the mix. If there isn't a silver color that has shown in the past, then it has to come from a cross in all practicality.

And unless someone is cheating they are not registered with AKC. The ones I checked on were registered with the pet registry which is worthless as a controlling stud book.

Ezzy

[r.r.rouse]

I wounder if they are of the pointy" standing still" lab version as well or maybe that would be another grand if they were.

[TheShadow]

I knew a girl that had one. The dog was not trained and so out of control she gave it up. She claimed the dog was not "trainable" so basically it was a tough/hard headed dog. It looked more like a weim to me. But it was behaving psycho. Probably the owners fault but the dog was aggressive and out of control the times I saw it. I personally would never own one. Even as a pet.

[Wagonmaster]

When dogs are registered with the AKC, they are not veted for color. You could register a purple lab as long as it came from two registered lab parents.

[Greg Jennings]

http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Silver

[edondero]

whatever it was, wherever it came from. those dogs are hideous and some backyard breeder thinks they are on to something and making a big buck out of it. when our weim snuck out once, we ended up with a litter of "silver labs" and gave them away. face looks like a weim, body obviously a lab, hopefully in the pict she was preggars, cause she looked like another fat lab.

[ohiohuntinweim]

This came up on another BB, I looked into it and found some sites that indicated they had been DNA traced as purebreed labs. And that they are some color phase of the chocolate lab.

Don't know if its true or not but it sure looks like some weim mixed in there eh? Can you imagine two weims on point and sending a silver lab into flush??? By the way at all the breeder pages I looked at very few if any said anything about hunting/field work in their dogs

[shume]

Here is a link I found that discusses the controversy, although one sided.

http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm#.

[Vizsla Vince]

http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Silver

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, (snort) Huh?
I thought I was back in Science class staring @ Amy Keefer when the teacher called on me...

Seriously, though.. I've seen a pure white "lab" which the owner called a "polar lab", & one that had the color of a V, which was referred to as a "red lab", but never even heard of a silver lab.

[Greg Jennings]

Ah, the benefits of a split personality....it allows one to both oogle the girls (her name was JoJo Cunningham) and pay attention in biology at the same time...

Greg J.

[edondero]

but they don't look much like labs to me. i've never been a lab person, but i think i have pretty good taste in dogs and i say that is one bad looking lab. misproportioned, fat, something along those lines.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Definitely Weimaraner crosses. Notice the lack of an "otter" tail that Labs should have. Length of muzzle is longer than a Lab's much more like a Weim's. The face definitely looks Weimish.

[NE Vizsla]

I could have swore i read a articel about them years ago and how they were crossed with Weims..thought it was Gun Dog Magazine say 10 or so years ago.

Never seen one in real life.

[Greg Jennings]

Definitely Weimaraner crosses.

I wouldn't buy that dog, any dog from that breeder or any silver lab. But, I just don't see how anyone can look at the genetic explanation of how the color flaw can happen in a pure bred Lab, look at some pictures and say "Definitely".

Greg J.

[honeyrun]

I can not and will not comment one way or the other about if they are outcrossed. However, I did go out and look at the website and thought they do indeed look like labs.

The Silver (or grey color) is most likely the result of a double deluted liver gene. This happens when solid chocolate (or liver) is bred to solid chocolate (or liver) generation after generation after generation.

The double deluted gene is how the weim originally got it silver color. Once you have the gene as a dominate gene, you can reproduce it at will.

I did quite a lot of research on this several years ago. It can happen in ANY breed where chocolate or liver (or another variation ) is an acceptable color. The reason that you probably do not see it in other breeds - Flat Coat - Chessie - GSP - Doberman - etc, is that when they do appear, they get euthanized immediately. Ask a long time Poodle breeder what happens when you breed chocolate to chocolate.


They eye color is a factor that can go along with the coat color.

I am also sure that anyone can find articles to contradict my above opinions, isn't the internet great!

[EWSIV]

Definitely Weimaraner crosses.

I wouldn't buy that dog, any dog from that breeder or any silver lab. But, I just don't see how anyone can look at the genetic explanation of how the color flaw can happen in a pure bred Lab, look at some pictures and say "Definitely".

Greg J.

I have seen pictures of silvers that look like Labs and I have seen some that look like weim crosses like the ones on that website. The ones I saw that looked like labs were heavily inbred.

Whether it is crossing with weims or inbreeding, I wouldn't buy one.

[h20fwlkillr]

I've found breeder websites where they actually state they cross weims and labs to produce "silver labs". The funny thing is their dogs look just like the ones that claim to be pure lab.

[HUNTEMUP]

Silver is not recognized by any registery. People are breeding for this color and to get this color you need to breed a recessive gene and that is not a good thing! Black is the dominate gene for lab's. Bottom line - Would not suggest a Silver Lab.

[ezzy333]

Though I agree that I wouldn't buy a Silver Lab I am lost as to the rational about never breeding a recessive gene. Every dog has recessive genes so I don't understand what you mean by breeding them.

Ezzy

[EWSIV]

It would take alot of inbreeding to be able to consistently produce silver pups. Breeding for one trait only is bad no matter what that trait is. There is a reason that 90% (or more) of field trial labs are black. No one breeds for th sole purpos of achieving the balck color.

[bird]

.

[EWSIV]

http://www.texashuntfish.com/thf/app/fo ... s-for-sale

[markj]

3 week old pic looks like yellow labs


Never saw that in any GSp breeding or other liver dogs bred down the line like say springers. I stay away from labs myself.

[EWSIV]

You've never seen a lemon GSP?

[Ironman]

whatever it was, wherever it came from. those dogs are hideous and some backyard breeder thinks they are on to something and making a big buck out of it. when our weim snuck out once, we ended up with a litter of "silver labs" and gave them away. face looks like a weim, body obviously a lab, hopefully in the pict she was preggars, cause she looked like another fat lab.

Just saw this and couldn't resist.
If this Wiem was bred by a Lab, as is the claim, the Lab had to be a carrier of the silver gene also. Both sire and dam must each contribute a recessive dilute "d" gene for a pup to actually be Silver "dd". Basic genetic rule of dominate and recessive genes. Obviously, the Weim did its part...but where did the suspect Lab get its gene? Maybe it wasn't a Lab at all that bred this litter?
Careful when guessing at unknown outcrosses ("obviously a lab" ), this post could easily be construed as "proof" that Labs carry Silver!

[AHGSP]

Not completely sure I can agree with the necessary presence of the dilute(d).
http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Silver

[Ironman]

Pamela's information, albeit very informative, appears to be somewhat outdated (1999). The gene responsible for the silver coat in Labs has been identified as the dilution gene "d". There are even genetic testing services that will run DNA samples from your dog to test for it!
http://www.healthgene.com/canine/C128_r ... brador.asp

[durdenslabs]

Silver is chocolate
Blue is black

However, they are a genetic throwback that should be bred OUT of the breed, not back into it like these byb's are doing.
These are diluted colors that can not be shown, are substandard for the breed and even hunters shy away from them.

Those that call them "silver" or "blue" are only trying to join in on the designer fad - like the rest of the byb's that are mixing 2 breeds and givng them cutsie names and trying to call them a new breed while selling them for hundreds of dollars to the naive that don't know any better.

[ezzy333]

I find more of the designer type dogs coming from kennels than BYB's. But it makes no fifference since where they ar coming from isn't the problem. It's the fact that dogs that do not fit the standard are being sold as special dogs with full registration. There should be a way to restrict full registration to dogs that have demonstrated their compliance before they recieve the certificate. It's too bad that the people put money ahead of the breed's importance no matter where in the yard they are breeding.

Ezzy

[ACooper]

Seems odd that they never look like labs but like weims maybe its just the color throwing me off?

[Ironman]

...These are diluted colors that can not be shown, are substandard for the breed ....

I’ve heard and read this comment a lot about the Silver Lab. I don’t think it is actually that simple…maybe it is, but I think there is a catch 22 involved here.
The LRC now says “there is no genetic basis for Silver in Labs”, which is interestingly in opposition to their first position (which is the position the AKC still holds). The AKC says Silver is just a Chocolate and should be registered as such.
Basically,
LRC’s stand is that Silver is not a recognized Lab Color.
AKC’s stand is that Silver is Chocolate, which is a recognized Lab color.

So here’s where it may get interesting; once someone has a Show worthy Silver and tries to show it.

At an AKC show, Chocolates are allowed, as they are acceptable under the breed standard. The AKC statement on Silvers, and their registration, say’s these labs are just Chocolate…an acceptable color and therefore showable as what the standard calls a “light” Chocolate. So, under the letter of the law(AKC), it would be admissible (as chocolate) and could obtain a CH title. However, the stigma that follows the Silver Lab would likely discourage judges to allow it to score highly. A Judge can disqualify a dog if it has a DQ according to the breed standard (tan points, underbite, other color (which according to the AKC silver is not (silver=Chocolate)), etc), but a judge cannot DQ for a purported crossbreeding that occurred decades ago. Now, if the AKC judge does DQ a Silver Lab under the “other color” premise, then by that action, by default, the AKC recognizes "Silver" as a Lab color different from Black, Yellow, and Chocolate. This puts the AKC in a hard spot. If they recognized Silver to stop it from being shown, they would be contrary to the LRC who claim, “there is no genetic basis for Silver in Labradors”. The AKC will not likely go against the parent club and add a new recognized color (Silver), so they would have to allow Silver to shown as “light Chocolate”.

I don’t know, maybe I’ve thought this through too much, but it looks like a catch 22 to me. Disqualifying it for being the wrong color substantiates that it is a color, which the LRC says it is not. Allow it to show and get a CH as Chocolate and get the Lab show world (LRC) upset even more because they say it is not a Chocolate.

I guess this all hinges on someone actually producing a show worth Silver, which I have yet to see.

[dhondtm]

My neighbor got one and albeit it looked like a Weim as a puppy with a thicker head, it grew up and now looks like a chocolate lab. The silver color has mostly darkened into the chocolate color.

The Gray color gene in the Weims is recessive I believe and typically won't come through when crossed with other breeds. I have seen Weim - Vizsla mixes and guess what, they look like a chocolate lab.

At any rate people think they are getting this unique looking dog and are willing to pay more money for them. I would be more interested in paying for a dog that has good bird work potential over some unique cross breeding, but to each there own. I just worry about the health risks when irresponsible breeding takes place.

[zzweims]

Whether or not it's possible for this silver color to show up naturally, is not the point. Those who breed solely for color are doing the breed a disservice. Then again, any recessive gene can be difficult to replicate. Most come to realize that it's a lot easier to get a silver lab, by tossing a weim in the woodpile. I know. I had a chocolate lab breeder contact me a few years ago about using my weim as a stud dog to produce silvers. She even offered me a cut on future profits. :roll:

Needless to say, I told her 'no.'

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[coveycreek]

but they don't look much like labs to me. i've never been a lab person, but i think i have pretty good taste in dogs and i say that is one bad looking lab. misproportioned, fat, something along those lines.

You have never seen a lab? Is there such a place on earth where there isn't multiple labs in every neighborhood? I want to move there.

[Ironman]

Whether or not it's possible for this silver color to show up naturally, is not the point. Those who breed solely for color are doing the breed a disservice.

I couldn't agree more!
But in that same vain, does that mean its alright to breed an occasional Silver if one also breeds the other Lab colors? There are a few "Silver breeders" who appear to be breeding in multiple non-silver lines and producing all the colors.

Then again, any recessive gene can be difficult to replicate. Most come to realize that it's a lot easier to get a silver lab, by tossing a weim in the woodpile. I know. I had a chocolate lab breeder contact me a few years ago about using my weim as a stud dog to produce silvers. She even offered me a cut on future profits. :roll:

Needless to say, I told her 'no.'

Wow! I would love to hear more about this one. From what I understand most Silver Lab breeders stay away from any Weim association. (Shoot me a PM with the Kennel if you still have the info, I'd like to dig a little on this one).

One thing that has always bugged me about the claim that a Wiem was used to get the silver into the Lab is that Silver labs don't point! I've collected nearly 200 web addresses of Silver Lab breeders and the only ones who claim that their Labs can point (2 or 3) are actively breeding in established Pointing Lab lines like Kellogg and Black Forest. If the Wiem were the source, there would be many Silver labs that point, particularly since most are solidly line bred, which would accentuate that trait.

[zzweims]

[One thing that has always bugged me about the claim that a Wiem was used to get the silver into the Lab is that Silver labs don't point! .

Most Weims don't either!!

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[zzweims]

[quote="Ironman

Then again, any recessive gene can be difficult to replicate. Most come to realize that it's a lot easier to get a silver lab, by tossing a weim in the woodpile. I know. I had a chocolate lab breeder contact me a few years ago about using my weim as a stud dog to produce silvers. She even offered me a cut on future profits. :roll:

Needless to say, I told her 'no.'

Wow! I would love to hear more about this one. .[/quote]

I don't recall the woman's name and don't know if she ever succeeded in producing silver labs. All I know is that she was a small time breeder of chocolate labs from most likely central Georgia. It was about seven years ago and she just showed up on my doorstep one day with a chocolate lab bitch in standing season. She inquired about my stud dog and I pointed out the obvious: he was a weim, she was a lab. That's when she explained to me about silver labs, which I had never heard of before. She also explained that she had contacted every vet in the region (which is why I believe she's from central georgia) looking for a weim stud. Mine was the only one she found (my backwoods vet gave her my address!). I told her that nobody would pay good money for a mutt (this was before the doodle craze. boy was I wrong!), and she said that they would be registered as labs. She insisted that silver does occur naturally in the lab breed, but that it would take years of mass breeding before one popped up naturally, if at all. Or, she could breed to a weim, then breed those pups to each other, and/or back to a chocolate and breed those dogs to each other and in just 2-3 generations, she would have 'purebred' silver labs. I told her 'no thanks,' then I called and fired my vet.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[Ironman]

I have heard rumors that some claim recent cross breeding to Wiems, but this is the 1st First-person account I have heard! I know that a few years ago a prominent Silver breeder was apparently suspended by the AKC, though I don't know the exact reason. Perhaps there is a connection to your story? I'll try to find out where this person was living at the time of the suspension. If it's Ga. or the South, there might be a solid connection.

Good idea on the new Vet! So much for keeping records confidential, sheesh! :roll:

[Gurgle]

http://www.mtstlouislabradors.com/aboutus.htm

FYI

[tfbirddog2]

I have blacklab/wiemer cross she was 1 of 12 pups in the litter all were black.Mother was Lab, father was wiemer all the pups look like black wiemers and have sliverish tint, when my dog is out in the sun alot see gets kinds cholaty looking.About six months after I got my dog, in the Denver paper ther was a add for Wiemadors $200 AKC papered thay were all black but never said what they were papered as.I know a local lady that breeds labs that has the Red Fox colored labs cause I got one of them for my brother-in-law.I have seen one of these silvers coming threw town before, guy said there were three in the litter, but were very dark,parents were yellow and chocolate they were advertised as blacks.Sorry kinda rambled about alot.