Breeding GSP Sire??

Gundogs/Nebraska · Post by **Gundogs/Nebraska** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:04 pm

Having a female that is HEAVILY bred Dixieland Luke/Rusty.. Who would you breed her too?

Knowing that you want to keep the bloodlines going. But yet willing to mix the bloodlines up for Versatility, Style, Desire, Excellent nose, stamina, excellent bird prey, natural retrieveing and back, biddable and have great conformation and disposition. Pups that will run medium to LARGE!!

I know this is going to bring up a lot of discussion, but I'm curious on everyones opinion..

WHO IS THE GSP SIRE OF TODAY FOR ALL??????????????

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:16 pm

Good question I surely will watch this one

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:33 pm

WHO IS THE GSP SIRE OF TODAY FOR ALL??????????????

Doesn't exist, and never has.

To make matters worse we are at a time in the breed of very little "clarity". Even within trial lines, we have few truly proven sires that have shown to work in both linebred and outcrossed situations.

What are this girl's strengths and what are her weaknesses? What were the strengths and weaknesses of the sire and the dam? Any physical conformation problems? Does she have a good bite? Did her sire and dam? That stuff means WAY more than the pedigree does.

What are you looking to produce? Hunting dogs only? Hunt test dogs? High power trial dogs? Who are you selling these pups to?

There's a pretty proven cross right now in trial lines with Rusty/Rexx stuff. It's been producing lots of winners, but those are from pedigrees full of winners themselves. May produce great trial dogs but that might not be the kind of dog you are looking for.

My suggestion is to stop with all the "HEAVILY bred Dixieland Luke/Rusty" and "Knowing that you want to keep the bloodlines going" mumbo jumbo and start talking dog flesh.

Look at the dog in front of you. How do you want the pups to be different from her? Find some sires PROVEN to put those traits in their pups.

JMO,
Dave

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:36 pm

Hypothetically, I bet you would not have to go far if you are in the Midwest.

1. Ruger (Cadens Ruger Weltmeister) http://www.cadenskennels.com/Content.as ... eltmeister

Being Dixieland Luke/Rusty I bet Charlie will be "in the know".

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:55 pm

Yes ruger is a nice one. I have a dog outta him now and a rusty bitch. Produced a great litter, maybe nexttime right to ruger.

My idea of the perfect shorthair is one that can do a ft and a ch dual ch dog. That is what I tried to get last litter, might have it in the pup I kept.

My bitch hunts hard, points solid, dont fetch as I would like she drops it 2 or 3 ft from me. She also has bad gas right before she needs to go out

Kinda like an early warning.

I never brought her into the house. Got very cold brought her in she hasnt made one mess. Never crate trained her but I say kennel up and she goes right in. Pup does too

Fast learner, nice colors and a heck of a momma dog

her daddy isnt a slouch either.

Only one Idont really know about is her dam casey vom beaver creeks. Only the rep of the kennel she is from.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:03 pm

I think Dave hit the nail on the head but if you just want names of dogs to check out see: Ruger & Spot in the Midwest, Sonny and Flash out west just to name a few. Charlie has Rusty-line dogs down south. As you know nearly all of the dogs of today are probably at best 10-15% Rusty.

Gundogs/Nebraska · Post by **Gundogs/Nebraska** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:17 pm

BigShooter wrote:I think Dave hit the nail on the head but if you just want names of dogs to check out see: Ruger & Spot in the Midwest, Sonny and Flash out west just to name a few. Charlie has Rusty-line dogs down south. As you know nearly all of the dogs of today are probably at best 10-15% Rusty.

I agree with Dave.

But why not try to keep the Rusty bloodlines going??

I understand that there isn't a lot of Sires out there now days that are heavily Rusty bred. But I have to be honest I'm partial too that bloodline and it crosses well with quite a few different bloodlines..

The female is out of NAFC FC AFC Dixieland's Bustin Loose Bell on the bottom side and goes back too Luke twice in 3 generations on the top side ( you can't get much better then this pedigree if you want to keep these bloodlines going, Luke 3 times and Rusty once in 3 generations)

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:49 pm

You can find the pedigrees for Sonny and Flash at Palermo Kennel's site. Look up a post by Wagonmaster on this site and you'll see a link to Spot's pedigree. I don't know all of the Rusty line bred dogs of today so I'm only giving you names that I know of.

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:03 pm

Steve Lithgow out of New Mexico still has a son out of Rexx. http://www.waycoolkennels.com/momoney.asp

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:05 pm

Even within trial lines

I knew it, now it's in print on the web!! The GSP subspecies - 1/2 hour circle, pen bird specialists!! Gawww!

I'm tongue in cheek of course, but the fact that there are "trial lines" gives me great pause to the future of the breed no better than I feel the majority of trials nowadays test dogs.

yet willing to mix the bloodlines up for Versatility, Style, Desire, Excellent nose, stamina, excellent bird prey, natural retrieveing and back, biddable and have great conformation and disposition. Pups that will run medium to LARGE!!

Since you're willing to "linebreed" or outcross, it gives you endless options. You're gonna have to look beyond simple "trial dogs" and your computer monitor though to adequately assess all those qualities IMO. Believe what your eyes and experiences tell ya', not what a bunch of us internet experts think!! Giddyup!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:06 pm

Look at the well-established breeders who bred to Rusty; guys like Rabidou, Sienkowski, et al.

Are they still tighly linebreeding on Rusty today? No, they are not.
The same goes with all of the greats that came before him; Dude, Bossman, etc, etc.

Linebreeding is more than just "this dog goes back to Rusty X times". True linebreeding means that the breeder(s) knew Rusty and what he threw. He knew his traits, and for every generation he picked the dogs that best reflected Rusty's traits from those litters, and bred those dogs.

You do realize that you can have Rusty show up multiple times in a pedigree, produce great dogs and still not actually be linebreeding on Rusty?

If your goal is to continue on the "Rusty line" (whatever that is) for another 25 years the best thing to do is to breed to a dog with little if any Rusty in him. That will give you the opportunity to then breed back into Rusty but with enough "other stuff" to help avoid the problems that will show up when heavily linebreeding across multiple generations.

JMO,
Dave

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:32 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
If your goal is to continue on the "Rusty line" (whatever that is) for another 25 years the best thing to do is to breed to a dog with little if any Rusty in him. That will give you the opportunity to then breed back into Rusty but with enough "other stuff" to help avoid the problems that will show up when heavily linebreeding across multiple generations.

JMO,
Dave

Dave, You 've had some great posts on this issue. The only questiion I have is, do you really think you could find a dog today that doesn't already have lots of "other stuff" in the dog already? The four dogs I mentioned all have lots of "other stuff" in them already. IMO I question whether G/N could really "heavily linebreed" Rusty today.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:34 pm

Dave please explain your-self I am not following you.

You do realize that you can have Rusty show up multiple times in a pedigree, produce great dogs and still not actually be linebreeding on Rusty?

If your goal is to continue on the "Rusty line" (whatever that is) for another 25 years the best thing to do is to breed to a dog with little if any Rusty in him. That will give you the opportunity to then breed back into Rusty but with enough "other stuff" to help avoid the problems that will show up when heavily linebreeding across multiple generations

.
I am trying to understand this. If you bring in other dogs to breed aren't you bringing in other probs with it? I understand that you need to go out side once in awhile. I also understand if all carry a common bloodline then you will linebreed that line as intensely as the bloodline you are trying to intensify.By bring in outside dogs you may be bring in stuff you don't want .......I am new at this and I am trying to understand it .....Scott

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:12 pm

Instead of looking at a studs pedigree, maybe we should look at his offspring instead?

BTW, I watched a couple of really nice Ruger pups in Puppy/Derby competition last year.

I am also looking forward to seeing what this guy produces...

http://pottorffsgsps.netkennel.com/Pedi ... -Man%20Guy

Gundogs/Nebraska · Post by **Gundogs/Nebraska** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:22 pm

I agree with everyone's opinion and appreciate them as well.

A sire that is a producer is even more of what I am really looking for, NOT just titles, looks and so on.

The sire must be a producer and a credit to himself..

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:02 pm

RoundRiver Setters wrote:Dave please explain your-self I am not following you.
You do realize that you can have Rusty show up multiple times in a pedigree, produce great dogs and still not actually be linebreeding on Rusty?

Scott,

Here's the short answer. Not every pup in the litter has the same % of genes consistent with the "target", in this case Rusty. On top of that, you have the problem of the genotype and phenotype copies of the gene; the phenotype controls what you see and the genotype controls what is passed in the DNA.

So, you can have a Rusty son that's a perfect physical replica of Rusty, but he throws genes consistent with his dam. Now, his dam might have been an awesome dog. So, the offspring may be wonderful, but he's not got as much Rusty in him as his pedigree says. Pull that across a number of generations and you can get some wonderful dogs that have very little in common with the target other than the name on a pedigree.

I've had the opportunity to talk to the breeder/trainer/handlers of some very influental dogs over the years; dogs that lots of people (mainly amateurs) claim to be linebreeding on 15 or 20 years after the dog was producing. They almost always say the same thing "Those folks linebreeding on my old dog may be producing nice dogs, but they are completely different than what my old dog was, or what he threw when I linebred him." It's hard to make a copy of something, when you spent very little if any time with the original.

I believe in linebreeding; I've seen it work. But in every case the guy doing the breeding is the guy who bred or trained the "target" of the linebreeding and trained hundreds of 1st and 2nd generation offspring.

Make sense?

JMO,
Dave

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:35 pm

BigShooter wrote:
Dave Quindt wrote:
If your goal is to continue on the "Rusty line" (whatever that is) for another 25 years the best thing to do is to breed to a dog with little if any Rusty in him. That will give you the opportunity to then breed back into Rusty but with enough "other stuff" to help avoid the problems that will show up when heavily linebreeding across multiple generations.

JMO,
Dave
Dave, You 've had some great posts on this issue. The only questiion I have is, do you really think you could find a dog today that doesn't already have lots of "other stuff" in the dog already? The four dogs I mentioned all have lots of "other stuff" in them already. IMO I question whether G/N could really "heavily linebreed" Rusty today.

You are absolutely right; about the way to truly linebreed on Rusty at this point would be to go and breed to the frozen stuff on Rexx or another Rusty son sitting in someone's freezer. There are some incredibly tightly-bred Rusty dogs (on paper) out there but who know how consistent with Rusty they really are.

Heck, in '98 when the AKC started using DNA as part of their inspection process, 11% of the dogs tested failed. That kinda throws a wrench in a lot of folks supposed linebreeding programs!

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:48 pm

We crossed Fritz with a heavy linebred Rusty bitch and it is an amazing litter. Just won a puppy stake with one then the owner ran him and won the AP. I have seen 5 out of the litter that are super nice in style and run. Do not know if he is trial bred, not sure what that is :roll:

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:28 pm

Heck, in '98 when the AKC started using DNA as part of their inspection process, 11% of the dogs tested failed.

What do you mean "failed"? The tested dogs DNA did not match the parental DNA? I was under the impression that at the beginning of the DNA registery process about the best you could expect from the DNA program was the establishment of a foundation of a then to grow database. Unless folks were sending in parental DNA and progeny DNA and seeing if they matched up...??

In the current day DNA system, I wasn't aware there was an inspection process...I send in a swab, they send me a DNA profile. Are they also, if the registered parental DNA is available, doing a probability match that the pup came from those parents??

Do not know if he is trial bred, not sure what that is

Excellent, and lets keep it that way!!

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:12 pm

I assume you have thought about talking to Bob Merkel and Pat Waresk? If you have some time before arranging the breeding, there are some pups out there with ties to Dixielands Gabriel going back a few generations--who I believe is pretty tight to Luke like your dog out of Belle. Bottom side of those dogs is Slick/Rock/Sunshine's Abigail.

Original MNGSP from this board has one that might be worth talking to him about. Chad Hines from Willow Creek kennels kept some pups and probably has good info on some that were placed.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:15 pm

What do you mean "failed"? The tested dogs DNA did not match the parental DNA? I was under the impression that at the beginning of the DNA registery process about the best you could expect from the DNA program was the establishment of a foundation of a then to grow database. Unless folks were sending in parental DNA and progeny DNA and seeing if they matched up...??

From the AKC website:

Compliance Audit Program (Kennel Inspections)

* DNA has been collected at over 10,000 kennels.
* Over 17,500 litters have been DNA tested.
* Over 95,000 DNA samples have been tested to verify parentage.
* In 2007, 95% of litters tested in the Compliance Audit Program have correct parentage. This is improved from 89% in 1998.

http://www.akc.org/dna/dna_update.cfm

So yes, when they started using DNA as part of the kennel inspection, 11% of the dogs tested did not match one or both of the parents.

In the current day DNA system, I wasn't aware there was an inspection process...I send in a swab, they send me a DNA profile. Are they also, if the registered parental DNA is available, doing a probability match that the pup came from those parents??

In the current system, the AKC can show up at your door and demand to see every AKC-registered dog you've got and can pull a DNA sample on the dog themselves.

You can refuse to let them in; that's an immediate 10 year AKC suspension and a $10k fine.

Do not know if he is trial bred, not sure what that is

Excellent, and lets keep it that way!!

uh huh :roll:

When you start buying pups with pedigrees full of show champions, instead of field champions, we'll have something to talk about.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:23 pm

If I were in your shoes (and I am) I would look seriously at Dogs like My Bullett and Duke.

Bullett's offspring from the tight Rusty bitches I've bred him to have been fantastic dogs. Flash, Duke, and Annie are pretty good representatives of what he'll throw bred to a nice Rusty bitch.

The few that have been trialed have been very successful. The only one of his offspring to be trialed and not placed regularly or won is Duke. He's only been in three trials and placed in only one of them.

Edit, I was wrong. Duke did place in his one and only Derby appearance. I ran three of the four placing dogs and he was fourth. Flash took first.

If you want to continue line breeding on Rusty, You could do far worse than Moose or Dan.

I've seen a couple of dozen Rusty son's and Daughters over the years and his owner is/was a good friend. Dan has all the best hunting qualities Rusty had, only two of his offspring were trialed and both had puppy/derby placements. CR

Ryan Baumann · Post by **Ryan Baumann** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:32 pm

I'd swing them by my house to where ever your going.

we could make a very nice litter of them.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:28 am

When you start buying pups with pedigrees full of show champions, instead of field champions, we'll have something to talk about.

It's a deal! When you start buying pups based solely on being "trial lines" we'll have even more to talk about!! Surely it wasn't lost on you that your latest pup came from lines known for their hunting prowess long before any of them became "famous"...and they still are in these parts. Me thinks the head honcho, and a whole lot of "customers", of that line still puts a lot of significance in those roots.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:16 am

Gundogs, did I miss it, what are you wanting to produce? Foot dogs, trial Gun Dogs, potentially a winner of the Nationals? What are the weaknesses of your female? Conformation issues? Etc.

I'd start by talking to Bob Merkel, I'd consider the many awesome dogs that BDK is running that are producing nice dogs. Talk to Rabidou. I'd consider Mike Pottorf's dog. Nicely bred IMHO.

If you are wanting to produce potentially trial winners, I wouldn't be too hot and giggly to look at dogs that produce a few weekend dogs, but dogs that are winning and producing winners on the national level.

I'd get suggestions from sites such as this, but then speak with those who know and make my decision based on their knowledge.

Don't be kidded, those who have produced national level winners for a good period of time are the ones proving their breeding, not someone who wins a puppy stake on occasion or a little weekend trial.

Gundogs/Nebraska · Post by **Gundogs/Nebraska** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:41 am

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:Gundogs, did I miss it, what are you wanting to produce? Foot dogs, trial Gun Dogs, potentially a winner of the Nationals? What are the weaknesses of your female? Conformation issues? Etc.

I'd start by talking to Bob Merkel, I'd consider the many awesome dogs that BDK is running that are producing nice dogs. Talk to Rabidou. I'd consider Mike Pottorf's dog. Nicely bred IMHO.

If you are wanting to produce potentially trial winners, I wouldn't be too hot and giggly to look at dogs that produce a few weekend dogs, but dogs that are winning and producing winners on the national level.

I'd get suggestions from sites such as this, but then speak with those who know and make my decision based on their knowledge.

Don't be kidded, those who have produced national level winners for a good period of time are the ones proving their breeding, not someone who wins a puppy stake on occasion or a little weekend trial.

TrueBlue,

The female doesn't have really any weaknesses. I wish she was a little bigger than she is and her retrieving could be better and that is from not being FF.

As far as what type of litter would I like to produce. I want to produce EXCELLENT dogs that will excel in ALL categories of the game. Rather it be HT/FT and heck yes why not mention a National Champion.

I know I'm going to get some opinions about what has the female produced or what has she done to accomplish herself..???

She hasn't accomplished anything, other than a DANG nice gun dog, but I think she has the caliber to compete, but I will save that for her pups.

I have owned and hunted with some dogs that had just an average pedigree and/or bloodline and were better than some of the best bred dogs..

I agree, it doesn't all depend upon what is on paper, but it does help. At least that way you know what your getting yourself into..

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:06 am

G/N You might be interested in reading through this old thread: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... re&start=0

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:42 am

Pat Waresk?

He is where Ginger came from, she is nicley linebred rusty.

I do like his Gabe dog too. But this statement is the best so far I have read here:

You're gonna have to look beyond simple "trial dogs" and your computer monitor though to adequately assess all those qualities IMO. Believe what your eyes and experiences tell ya', not what a bunch of us internet experts think!! Giddyup!

Gotta get out and see what the dogs are doing on the ground. Paper means there is a good foundation to begin, faults? training may help with any fault a dog has or so I was told years ago by my Grandpa.

Will anyone be at the march branched oaks trials? I sure would like to see a few good dogs in action.

CR you ever bring them dogs up here for a trial? I would like to meet ya and see your dogs.

That poteroff dog is a fine one. And close to me too I think.

Just gotta go and see what is what and go from there. I like to watch a dog work a field, see what it produces how it moves, how intense is the point. A shorthair should never need help with remaining steady on point. If it busts a bird, it is missing a major part of what the breed was intended to be.

Lots of potential out there for a great dog to breed to. But it sure dont do any good to breed to a dog nobody wants a pup out of.

I sure like Gingers last litter, now the pup I kept is spot on as far as what the breed should look like, lets give him time and see what he can do in his life. Oh and he is backyard bred

least thats where the deed was done on my farm.

right now I can tell you he learns fast as his parents did, is a lover doggie no aggressive traits yet so far. Plays with the kid, learned potty training in one day, fetch in one day, come two times he got that. and didnt cost me a grand. That is my main complaint, the cost for a good pup is so high most I know cant afford that. My goal is to breed a great dog, hunts great, does everything great and will cost the owner like 3 or 4 hundred. Not a grand or higher. But then I am not a kennel with a rep or anything. Just a guy that knows the value of a buck.

When we bred a horse in KY, we looked it over good, looked at old race movies to see how it moved and ran way before we ever looked at the ped. Dad raised a few winners that way, saw a guy pay him 24,000 for a colt was 8 months old, let me hold the cash too

Had him hand me a check to deposit once was $240,000

was stamped on the back too so I could have,,,,,,,, Dad trusted me tho. Cause he could.

Dogs is small potatoes in the big picture of things. Hunting is a hobby, nothing more nothing less. Spend what you can afford is my way of thinking, dont need the most expensive anything.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:21 am

http://www.waycoolkennels.com/trip.asp

Now here is a dog. DC is what I would like to achieve. Why dont more go for that? Seems to be a more "complete" package in MHO.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:31 am

I'm not saying you don't have a good dog just not a PERFECT ONE.

Never said she was perfect. I agree with all dogs have faults, training can help in that area. I must not have made that clear in my post sorry about that.

Only one was perfect and he hung from a Cross for us all.

And I also say the point should be natural and not a trained thing, as far as holding it.

Had a hege-haus gyp that would hold a point forever. I got her on a point she was across a wide creek, she held it until I threw a rock and flushed that bird. Time enuff for a cigar maybe 20 min or so.

A perfect dog? I wouldnt look at one that anyone made that claim cause he dont know dogs....

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:50 pm

Mark Iowa is getting a little out of my normal range. I have gone to the Ringneck GSP club trials each of the last two years though sorry I missed you there.

This season I'm not going to do as much traveling as I have the last two, I will definitely come to the Sunflower GSP club trial, and migh hang around long enough to run a dog or two at the Great Plains. I simply don't have the time and money to run the NGSPA circuit seriously though.

I might make it back up to the Ringneck's trial and/or a couple at Branched Oak but right now I'm not counting on it.

If you want to stay with more of a tight Rusty line breeding then you could do far worse than Mike's dog. Unfortunately he's on Ray's string (I think and spends most of his time in GA or on the road now.

I scouted him many times for Bryan and worked with him a good bit in training when Bryan and I train together while he had him. Very nice dog and a good producer.

CR

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:19 pm

Thanks CR, let me know if you get anywhere close to Ne or KS or MO I have a motorcycle and will ride it anywhere I need to for a look see at dogs. New job is 3 on 4 off one week 4 on 3 off next so I will have a bit of free time to ride around and evaluate a stud.

cheap is not in accomplishing either one of those let alone both.Show dogs sell for more then FT dogs in most cases.

Titleing a dog is a game, shouldnt have anything to do with the cost of a pup altho many do not see it as I do. Maybe I am all wrong in that, but that is how I feel. Used to get great shorthairs here in my area for 100.00. Now I see 400 and up. Paper prices in adds 400 and down.

I am just wanting to produce a litter of pups that can do it all, not just one thing. This is what the GSP was all about. I was told do show first then ft. Due to the weight issue.

Best dog I owned was from Ch lines with mh on em. A breeder out in central city nebr she was hege-haus line. Cant find that guys info nor anyone knows of him now. That is what I would like to be breeding, a dog that can compete in show or field and do well at either. Am I nuts or what?

Dont get me wrong, I am not a kennel do not have the overhead of a kennel so I dont need to get so much for the pups. What I spend on my dogs will not be passed onto a new pup owner, they are mine and it is my hobby, cant justify passing it on. Now if I was a kennel it would be a business, I dont want that at all. Same with my cooking, many folks ask me why I dont open a resturant, well as a job it wouldnt be so much fun for me.

I do cook for a Church or two, have a huge mobile cooker, cost per sandwich? 2.00

includes a drink too. Why? Thats all it cost me and it is for fun.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:30 pm

Mark the Sunflower GSP club is in Eureka KS. That's the only one I can tell you for sure I'm going to up that way this spring. With such a miserable bird year down here I cancelled all but one of my hunts and that's knocked about 1/2 my annual income out.

Branched Oak is just east of Lincoln NE. My dogs always show pretty well there and I sure like the people so IF I can figure out a way to afford it I'll make a trial or two up there but I am not counting on being able to this year.

One other dog I thought of you might want to consider is Steve Snell's dog Sage ( www.gundogsupply.com ) He probably won't ever see another field trial but he hunts a minum of 30-50 days a year on wild birds and is an awesome specimen of a dog.

He's out of Tipper and Dan, the litter I raised that was 8x Rusty in six generations and ten times over all. I ran him in a few puppy/derby stakes and he did well and was certainly a dog I had planned to keep but Steve got short on dogs and wanted him so... .

I think enough of Sage that I'll probably breed him at some point to one of my Bullett Daughters, or perhaps a line bred daughter of Bullett if/when I have one.

Larry Lowell also has some dogs that are out of a full brother to Bullett FC/AFC/AKC NGDCH HK's Rockin Rocky. You might see what he has running around stud dog wise.

If you need more information on the SFGSP club trial next month (weekend of the 21st) email me, or you can just look it up on the AKC site. CR

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Just remember not all DC titled dogs are anywhere near the same. You want to consider a real dual quality dog that happens to be a Dual Champion...

http://rsaledogs.com/

Take a look at DC Freeflight's Bosefus. The pics are a little disproportionate. However, this is one fine dog. By no means are all DCs equal. Consider the dog in the field first and then his show championship, not the other way around. Hank Jr. is a birddog first and foremost.

If you're looking for power, go to dogs that have placed or produced dogs with Nationals, Region, Species championships. Best yet, see a weekend Gun Dog stake, ride at the Nationals, Booneville or Eureka, or Great Plains, or Region 5, and see the difference in power, on average.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:38 pm

month (weekend of the 21st)

I will see if I can go to this one. Not too far for me. Heck I went to the east coast in 18 hours once or twice. Rode one back from GA was east of Atlanta, left 5 pm got home 10 pm next day spent 5 hours sleeping too.

I just would like to meet up and talk dogs with those that know dogs. I may learn a thing or two. Learnt a lot from these fine folks on this here BB.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:42 pm

The Sunflower is a good one to go to. Since the GPCH starts just follwing it you'll see many of the top dogs in the midwest and many of them that will also run the GPCH starting on Monday.

It won't be a trial where the only four dogs that get around clean place in the adult stakes, it'll be one usually where the judges have to really scratch there heads to JUST come up with four placements. CR

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:39 pm

Consider the dog in the field first and then his show championship, not the other way around.

Amen brother Blake.

Gundogs/Nebraska · Post by **Gundogs/Nebraska** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:43 pm

NO ONE HAS A PERFECT DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!!!!!!!

My 2 HRCH UH/MH titled female Labradors have issues.. You can train a dog too do anything that you want, but it still might and/or isn't PERFECT!!

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:43 pm

DC Freeflight's Bosefus

Looks like my spots dog. What is his line?

I would think for a DC you want the conformation, movement, birdyness should be there. I have a friend gots show dogs, his hunt as hard as mine do........

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:16 pm

I always heard you dont breed to the dog you like you breed to the dog you likes sire.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:18 pm

This is a question that can and will be argued forever. But since you can not change the conformation I start there and find the dogs that can win on the bench then go with the ones that can perform in the field the way you like. Good looking dogs that conform to the standard can do just as well in the field as any other dog.

In my own case, I never showed a pup that hadn't proved he could hunt. But I refuse to breed any dog that doesn't fit the standard for the breed. That is why with my limited knowledge of the GSP's the dog that ranks No. 1 right now is Rich and Brenda's Fritz.

We have a few in the Brits also that just rank above the others when you look at the complete dog. We have somelines that are good trial dogs and we have a few that are good show dogs but the great ones are those that can do both and there are a lot of them around if you pay attention to what they have done and what they are producing.

Ezzy

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:29 pm

Rich and Brenda's Fritz.

Yes he is one heck of a dog. I keep looking at him again and again. He is one good dog from what I have read about him and he has many a title.

So many great dogs out there. Almost too many to choose from. Isnt he a HOF now?

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:39 pm

Dave I believe in linebreeding also but I have more questions.

So, you can have a Rusty son that's a perfect physical replica of Rusty, but he throws genes consistent with his dam. Now, his dam might have been an awesome dog. So, the offspring may be wonderful, but he's not got as much Rusty in him as his pedigree says. Pull that across a number of generations and you can get some wonderful dogs that have very little in common with the target other than the name on a pedigree

.
That is whay you should breed Rusty to diff dams and put him back in the line so you are not just making wonderful dogs right? Then if you find a combo that throws dogs just like him , then you start to wind them tight. Which at that point you are sure that you are passing his genes and just not making another wonderful dog......Did I figure this right?.................Scott

markj · Post by **markj** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:50 am

Deceased? wow. I think that dog has a few more titles in him

How does his get do so far if there are any?

markj · Post by **markj** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:31 am

Thanks I may do that. Hope this thread isnt making folks upset. There are so many good dogs out there. Finding a good match is going to be fun.and I may learn something from those that know a lot more than I do on dogs.