What's happenig to the gun dog?

[highcotton]

I have had pointing dogs for over 40 years. During that time I have seen the trial game have both positive and negative effects on the pointing breeds in general.

During the 70's many people in our area started breeding for run as their first priority. IMO it had a good effect on conformation and endurance but weakened the nose, specially in pointers.

Since the decline of our quail population NSTRA has gotten big in my area. I now see a lot of people breeding for nose as their number one priority. It takes a lot of nose to find a drunk quail in a grass field. But, it doesn't take much endurance to run 30 minutes in the type cover we use for NSTRA trials.

Now days, many seem to be breeding a generation of 30 minute sprinters with good noses and tons of trainability. And, many times traits such as all day hunting endurance, style and conformation are sacraficed in the process. Dogs with bad bites, hook tails and ill temperments are being bred simply because they are Champions.

It concerns me that so many people now days are breeding for the win at the expense of all else. Do you see the same in your area? Does it concern you?

[WildRose]

Cotton I know in my case that isn't the case. All the dogs I'm trialing today are either the same dogs I've been guiding wild bird hunts with all these years or their offspring with the exception of one that came from a friend of mine who hunts more than he trials.

I can't comment a whole lot on what others are doing because I don't hunt behind their dogs that they are trialing so I can't really make any honest assessment.

What I can say is this. No matter what venue you are competing in, you have to breed dogs that suit the venue if you are going to compete successfully. If our venues are not producing dogs that can in fact "do it for real" and be "all day hunting dogs" then we need to reassess our judging criteria.

It's very easy to get so hung up on trialing that we forget the simple fact that if/when we quit producing better hunting dogs from our trial stock than the average Joe can buy from "Billy Bob's Kennel" down the road we won't be around long. After all on average you get one or two solid trial prospects from any given litter and the rest end up being someones pet or hunting dog or both. If they aren't suitable for either they end up in rescue, shelters, or dumped in the country. CR

[Don]

I would agree with HC. Tried to write my feelings several times but I could guarentee I'd push a hot button somewhere.

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

Interesting - I think that it depends on the dog. We have a very nice athlete in the kennel - he runs fast and big. Problem is he overrun's his nose - it isn't a terrible nose - because he has pointed singles in hot, humid days, but generally only after he tires a bit and slows down a bit.

We have another that the owner thinks has an awesome nose, and I am not as convinced - it is good, but the dog is very methodical and although quick and thorough he doesn't run big and - I think it could be that because he is slower he doesn't overrun the nose.

The pace of the first dog by the time in inhales and exhales carries him a greater distance than the 2nd dog.

In this, I tried something - I planted a quail and worked the dogs on CC - the one that finds more birds in the wild actually pointed closer than the one that run's bigger. Could be a bunch of different reasons for that but it makes one wonder - does he have a better nose or is it just the pace the 2nd dog runs?

But, are you gonna breed to a 100 yd dog, or are you gonna breed to a bigger running dog?

I don't know, and thankfully it is not a question for me since I don't breed many dogs.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Of course hot buttons are pushed. Whether we hunt, trial, or both, we have rabid opinions on the subject. Far too often the opinions come from those who have never attended a trial, whether horseback or shoot to retrieve. With that said, from a trialer, far too many see a dog "run too big for the course" or see a dog they consider "just too much dog for the grounds", or a dog that happens on a bird over the period of an hour, stay steady on the one find, and win a championship. All of a sudden those are the dogs being bred BY SOME. I am an absolute novice breeder, but I did learn one thing 35 plus years ago, birddogs with good noses, smart dogs, dogs that move well, are the dogs that are sought after by hunters and those who know dogs and want the best. Sprinters may win on occasion, but prove typically to produce sprinters who may not point birds. I would venture a guess and say that in all breeds, the dogs that are brag hunting dogs and over time, winners in competition, are by and out of true BIRDDOGS, not race cars. Shoot, there's a hot GSP nowadays that many are breeding to, many of his get won't point period. Knock yourself out with that mutt. Wouldn't touch him.

I would challenge anyone to attend a few weekend events, see the dogs that win, the dogs that find birds, the FC dogs that have 30 placements, and then look to their get. You will find more winners and brag dogs. From the sprinters, they are a fad that will fade.

I'm with Charlie, the dogs I have bought and the dogs I breed are the dogs that I foot and truck hunt every year. Dogs that still do it for me, not for themselves. Now, the all day dog some talk of. I have no clue what that means. I have yet to find any dog that can for HARD for more than 2 to 3 hours in a day and be able to walk the next day.

HC, the trial breeder is either bettering the breed, improving dogs for hunting and trialing, OR is ruining the breeds. But, a single trialer doesn't do both, in most cases. I've won a little, around 200 placements in dogs I've owned and bred, produced a few really good ones, but have produced far more nice hunting dogs than anything else. Some of us do care about bettering our breed overall.

[snips]

This is interesting. I can see how this could be happening, as there is no wild birdhunting in the east as there was. People are turning more toward dog games and preserves. I never cared myself until Rick and I got together and he started me hunting, it was about winning only to me. What surprised me was the dogs I was doing the winning with switched to wild birds quickly and excelled. So, I think if they are dogs that can and do win on a consistant basis, in any avenue, they should have the tools, nose, intelligence, stamina, to excel at staying power in a hunt. Like Blake said, "the sprinters will fade". I agree.

[Hotpepper]

Brenda is absolutely correct for sure.

Hit it on the nose. The trial game for my dogs has make them "great" bird dogs for me to hunt over. Find lots of them.

Pepper

[Wagonmaster]

I am a hunter first, foremost and always. I can't speak to the original poster's view as it relates to pointers and setters because I am not as familiar with them as I once was. Although I have friends who use them in the grouse woods and their noses seem to work well under very adverse conditions.

But as for the GSP's I currently have, their noses are five times better than what you would have seen in the breed 30+ years ago.

I am not so sure it is the inherent nose of dogs that has changed. Some years ago there was a group of us that got together to train on wild birds through the summer. We had a spot that was full of young of the year pheasants and we could safely run the dogs on foot, even if they ran big. There were also spots where we could run them in cattail sloughs and such during the winter. All of our dogs saw a great many wild birds in their developmental years, from 6 months to 2 1/2 or 3 years of age. And they all turned out. I had a GWP that finished as an AFC. He had startling style and an incredible nose, even though he was not a massively big running dog. Another friend's setter won the Grand National Grouse Championship. Still another had many cover dog placements on his dog. We thought we were the greatest trainers on earth.

Then we all got second dogs, and coincidentally lost access to that training spot. And none of the dogs turned out very well, even though they seemed to have alot going for them. We scratched our heads for a couple of years, and finally figured out that the big difference was the amount of time we spent working those first dogs on wild birds. Some developed fast, some slower, but they all developed.

Most dogs from trial and field stock are born with good noses. But if they sit in the kennel for the first two years of their life, or you convince yourself that doing obedience in the yard is getting the dog ready to hunt, and you then take them out in the field, they will not know what a game bird is. "Nose" is part birthright, part development.

I think with training opportunities shrinking over the decades, this is what has happened to nose.

I do see a few dogs at trials that run just to feel the wind between their ears. Don't value those very highly myself.

[gunner]

Into my 6th decade of owning, training, hunting, and trialing both as an amateur and as a pro I believe most of the pointing breeds that I had the opportunity to train or observe are far more outstanding as a whole compared to the dogs of a half a century ago.

Our modern field-type pointers, setters and continental breeds are far more easier to train, I think so much more attractively moving and on point and show those natural attributes of intelligence, nose, stamina, endurance, come-back, good confirmation and health so important to the foot hunter, and proven in competition by the field trialer.

Far fewer pointers today with cycle tails and bull-dog underbites than what there were in the 60's and 70's.

[dan v]

Then we all got second dogs, and coincidentally lost access to that training spot. And none of the dogs turned out very well, even though they seemed to have alot going for them. We scratched our heads for a couple of years, and finally figured out that the big difference was the amount of time we spent working those first dogs on wild birds. Some developed fast, some slower, but they all developed.

John,

Off topic but man, do you realize how many people that happens to? I call it "paralyzed by fear."

It's different than loosing a training area. It's that you/I had our first dog, we didn't know nuttin', we just went out there and worked the dog. We had some success, then we got another dog.

We learned from the mistakes we made with our first dog, and vowed not to repeat them. So, we questioned ourselves and our methods out of fear that we would repeat the mistakes. We wanted better. What that fear lead to was, we didn't do as much training with the second dog as the first.

Paralyzed by fear.

That's one of the reasons, IMO, we see the "one dog wonder" in FT's.

[Greg Jennings]

It's also commonly called "The Sophomore Effect/Curse/Slump".

But, I'm not sure that's what John was getting at.

Greg J.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Don't know John, first dog, do everything with the dog, spend tons of time, send him to the prairies, run that one dog, hunt that one dog. Then, get a taste of how easy this trialing and training deal is...next dog is good, you do less, you buy another dog, you do even less, then all of a sudden you own 12 untrained idiots. One dog, maybe two at a time, unless you're like some folks these days with full time pros on staff, 100,000 acre ranches, millions of dollars to spend. I'm just a poor country boy trying to compete with a couple of dogs. Man, I ain't got a chance!! Wanna buy a couple of run off shorthairs??

[Wagonmaster]

We weren't afraid. We still trained. But it was all on callback birds and such, cause we did not have those great grounds to run on anymore. In retrospect, running those dogs in the period from about 5,6 months to about 18 months on beaucoup wild birds made them so birdy, and so immune to our mistakes, and gave them such great style around birds, there was nothing we could have done to screw them up.

We still get in plenty of wild bird training, especially with spring born litters that are old enough to run in the fall. We just let em go on the Dakota prairies, whoopee!! And in my area, we all send em with pros that go to the prairies for the summer.

But it is not the same as being able to drive out every night after work and put em on wild birds.

[Trekmoor]

A really good topic ! I've been discusssing this question for 20 years or more with triallers and with people who just like to shoot over their dogs.

I agree with Wagon master that it has a lot to do with time spent with a dog working on enough if not plenty of wild game. My pups were started early on game and never saw a planted bird of any kind. My britt and my G.S.P.'s all had plenty of range and pace. I lost the ground I worked them on and the training suffered very badly. My present pup is from some of the best available bloodlines, the same bloodlines I've always had. He tries hard but is not as good as his Aunties and uncle I used to own. I put it down to lack of experience on wild game. A good range, a good pace, a good pattern are all nice to have and to look at but the dogs still need game experience, I.M.O. as much as possible !

I used to train dogs, work dogs for clients and compete in trials on the Scottish grouse moors, up in the hills. I found that a really hard going trial dog only had to run for 10 minutes , 15 at the most , twice in one day. The dogs scorched the heather as they ran and their considerable grouse finding experience ensured they made few if any mistakes.

Those same dogs after a day or two working the moors all day for clients or doing conservation grouse counts, taught themselves to be marathon runners rather than sprinters. Usually what happened was the dog would do a fast 1st 10 - 20 minutes then begin to tire. The dog would be called in and another dog released to hunt. This pattern was repeated all day between my 2 or 3 dogs. One , sometimes two out hunting, the other getting its' breath back at heel. The dogs learned to regulate their pace. I avoided working a dog in that way if it was soon to run in a trial. I think the same dog can be both sprinter and marathon runner.

Bill T.

[highcotton]

A really good topic ! I've been discusssing this question for 20 years or more with triallers and with people who just like to shoot over their dogs.

I used to train dogs, work dogs for clients and compete in trials on the Scottish grouse moors, up in the hills. I found that a really hard going trial dog only had to run for 10 minutes , 15 at the most , twice in one day. The dogs scorched the heather as they ran and their considerable grouse finding experience ensured they made few if any mistakes.

Those same dogs after a day or two working the moors all day for clients or doing conservation grouse counts, taught themselves to be marathon runners rather than sprinters. Usually what happened was the dog would do a fast 1st 10 - 20 minutes then begin to tire. The dog would be called in and another dog released to hunt. This pattern was repeated all day between my 2 or 3 dogs. One , sometimes two out hunting, the other getting its' breath back at heel. The dogs learned to regulate their pace. I avoided working a dog in that way if it was soon to run in a trial. I think the same dog can be both sprinter and marathon runner.

Bill T.

I agree that dogs can learn to pace themselves. I also agree that the same dog can be a sprinter and marathon runner. But only if the dog has the running gear (conformation) for the job. There are dogs that get around the field for 30 minutes on a bad lick and place but just don't have the physical ability to run much longer and a lot of those dogs are being used for breeding.

[Wagonmaster]

We run ours for a couple of hours on a patch of prairie, one dog down the whole time. Then move to another patch and put the dog down again. About the 5th or 6th hour they might start to slow a little. Otherwise, working out there 100-500 yards and running the entire time.

[BigShooter]

My GSP bitch is out of FT stock and has a littermate of some note in field trial circles. Although not trialed, a very experienced trialer familiar with her says she'd run an honest shooting dog race. I use her in the field like Wagonmaster and run just one dog. She will keep moving hard all day for about three full days. By day four the heart is willing but the body is sore and nicked up so she slows up a bit.

She'll work fairly close in a cattail slough. When finished she'll look for the next objective and may race off to a small bit of cover in a pasture a quarter of a mile or more away. Working CRP she's active at about 100-500 yards out. We virtually never get a wild flush in an area she's been through. Although less common I've seen her stand 40' off points. More than once, twenty minutes after a bird was wounded I've brought her over, seen her pick up the trail, disappear over a hill 1/2 mile away and come back with the bird in her mouth.

This dog is submissive to at least three of her littermates she still comes in contact with. Never-the-less this race mode you talk about I see in this dog as an attribute of extreme competitiveness. If another dog is in the field with her she will kick it into a higher gear to be the first to any objective. She will always move to the front. This is what I see as FT breeding in her.

From a lot of the posts on this site I have the impression I have a dog in the top 10% of the breed cause they just don't seem to make them like this anymore. By the way she's not perfect as she farts without warning in the Suburban on the way from northen Minnesota to the Dakotas !!!

[BigShooter]

The truth hurts !!!!