I need legal advice for stolen Lab

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:33 pm

Last week I had a couple dogs get out of their kennels and they were gone for a couple days. They made it to a neighboring town were a lady picked them up. The Lab had somehow lost his registration tag during the time missing and the only thing on his collar was his rabies tag. the lady traced the tag to the previous owner who I got the dog from more than a year ago in utah 4 hours away. The dog was an unpapered lab that the previous owners didn't want anymore so he was given to me for free. The previous owner then drove 8 hours round trip to pick up the dog and then took it home. The next day the lady saw one of my lost posters at the store and called me and told me what happened. I contacted the previous owners and they refused to give him back to me saying they legally rescued the dog and it is now theirs again. There was never any paper work to show they had given me the dog because he was free. I do have witnesses that know all about the transaction and the dog has been in my possetion for more than a year now. If there are any lawyers on here do you even think I have a case worth persuing? Please let me know. Thanks

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:49 pm

"......saying they legally rescued the dog and it is now theirs again"

I am no attorney but going and picking the dog up was not "legally rescuing" the dog. There is probably no legal concept of that anyway.

Try to bait them in an email conversation, where they admit giving you the dog. Can you establish that you have had it all this time? Then just go get the dog. Just take it and leave - say it is yours. If the cops come show the printed emails,pictures, etc. That is what I would do.

An attorneymay not be worth it.

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:45 pm

I can prove that I have had it all along by witnesses pictures and vet bills not to mention the registration. They already admitted to the lady that found the dogs that they did not own him anymore and she is willing to sign something that states that.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:16 pm

Had a friend that had a somewhat similar situation. Someone found his dog , he saw it in their yard. They said it was theirs. He had pictures but the local police said they could not tell if the dog in the pictures was the same dog. This was a Britt with easy to identify markings ( a Lab would be much harder) . He finally took them to court and won but by then they said they had given it to a relative that lived in England.
This is what brought me to tattoo the last four digits of my SS number in their ear. I think that would settle the issue with the police in the yard and no need for a scanner.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:35 pm

Good idea about the tatoo. On the other hand, if someone has my stuff I am going to get it. If you are the rightful owner the law is on your side. If you go take the dog - open your car door and holler and he'll run in and off you go. I might not trespass, I might on the other hand too, depends on the situation when I get there. Frankly I doubt they'd do a thing about it. Would they hire and pay for an attorney to try to get a dog back that they GAVE AWAY over a year ago?

You could also call the cops when you get there and tell them you are going to take your dog back. The guy probably wouldnt lie to a cop's face that he didn't give you the dog. And bring a statement from the woman who found your dog, and photos, etc.

bird · Post by **bird** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:06 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:41 pm

I sold a pup to a client who was having it boarded with a co-worker. After about 6 mos. my client was ready to send the dog to a trainer. The co-worker would not give the dog back.

My client went to the police to accompany him to the guy's house to get the dog. The guy basically told him to get lost and take him to court. The police said it was a civil matter, and they couldn't do anything.

My client went to a lawyer, and found out that he might be able to win, but it would probably cost more than 1000 dollars. Then if they did win, there is no way to keep that dog from coming up "missing or stolen" before they could recover it.

I don't want to discourage you, but this is a very good reason to have tattoos or microchips, and is something we should all should learn from.

I'm not saying that this what you should do, but about the only sure way to get the dog back is to steal it back.

Doug

prairiefire · Post by **prairiefire** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:57 pm

I am so sorry to hear about your situation!

Though the circumstances aren't entirely the same, an old riding buddy of mine went through something similar. We belonged to a youth riding organization that had a testing system--and a fellow member wanted to take an advanced test, but didn't have the horse for it. Emily lent this kid her very nice horse for several months so that he could get familiar with him and train. When he passed the test and Emily called to schedule a time to pick him up, the boy's family said that she owed them quite a lot of money for training fees they incurred while they had the horse. Give me a break! She was doing them a HUGE favor. If anything, they should have been paying to lease her horse. Anyway, she had the paperwork to prove that he belonged to her, so they drove their trailer up to their farm--with a police escort. What a sad situation that her generosity could be so terribly abused.

I'm sure the laws vary from state to state, but you could try calling the local police station and see if they could accompany you to the home when you retrieve your dog.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:01 pm

I have thought some more about this...

The guy KNOWINGLY took a dog that no longer belonged to him, KNOWING who the owner was, without making any attempt to return the dog to its rightfull owner, and crossed state lines (apparently) with it.

I would just show up and take your dog. And if the guy gives you some bull, threaten to report HIS CRIME. You could show up during the day, when the guy is likely working. Does wife stay at home? Do you know where he keeps the dogs?

Also, how do you know these folks? Explain a little about the connection. Are they strangers?

I don't think this is necessarily a civil matter.

For those who suggest microchip or tatoo. Suppose you tattoo the dog, and give it away as in this thread, and this all happens, how does that effect anything? Maybe it just makes it clear that the dog in question is in fact the dog in question.

prairiefire · Post by **prairiefire** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:10 pm

I'd be really nervous about showing up announced at anyone's home and making demands. Depending on the personalities involved, that could turn ugly really fast--not to mention that you're trespassing.

If it were me, I'd want to try and establish myself as the reasonable party. Get a signed statement from the woman that returned the dog, engage them in an email conversation so that you have some sort of written documentation (stick to the facts and make sure that your requests are reasonable--if their responses get heated, fine, but keep yourself above the fray), call the local police prior to driving out there and ask for their assistance, and bring any paperwork that can prove the dog has been in your care. Anything that you can do to 1. establish that you are the rightful owner and 2. show that you are a reasonable, responsible person.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:14 pm

prairiefire wrote: Get a signed statement from the woman that returned the dog, engage them in an email conversation so that you have some sort of written documentation (stick to the facts and make sure that your requests are reasonable--if their responses get heated, fine, but keep yourself above the fray), call the local police prior to driving out there and ask for their assistance, and bring any paperwork that can prove the dog has been in your care. Anything that you can do to 1. establish that you are the rightful owner and 2. show that you are a reasonable, responsible person.

Yeah, this has been my advice too... but if the dog is there and no one is around I'd take it and never say a word about it, after all it is MINE. Dogs do get out after all.

prairiefire · Post by **prairiefire** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:18 pm

Oh, I'd also bring a copy of your Lost Dog poster and print-outs of any message boards where you posted a lost dog notice. Show that you were making every effort to find your dogs...

prairiefire · Post by **prairiefire** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:25 pm

"but if the dog is there and no one is around I'd take it and never say a word about it, after all it is MINE"

If it were me, that would be an absolute last resort. There are just too many things that could go wrong--and you could end up in major legal trouble as well. What if the wife is home and she feels threatened--she could call the cops. As could a neighbor that sees a stranger sneaking onto the property. Try to keep the law on your side. If you're breaking it as well, that sort of muddies the waters...

I wish I had read this earlier. My step-mom is a lawyer, but she just boarded a plane an hour ago and will be out of the country for two weeks. If this hasn't been resolved by then, let me know. Property law isn't her specialty, but I could certainly ask her about your situation. She may have some advice for you--or know someone who could answer a few questions.

splucinski · Post by **splucinski** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:44 pm

Your original post states that you had "a couple" of dogs get out of their kennels and make it to the neighboring town. Did the lady who found them give both dogs to the other folks? If not what happened to the second one? If the second dog had a registration tag I would think she could have traced it back to you.

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:15 pm

She did have both dogs. The other was a brittany but her tags were so old and scratched up she couldn't read them either. The brittany also had a plaque on her collar with my name and address but the Lady never thought to look on the collar itself. She said she had never seen a collar with the info written directly on the collar.
I have only met these people the one time when I went to pick up the dog a year or so ago. Someone I worked with tipped me to a friend of theirs that had a young lab pup they couldn't keep and were giving away for free. I went and looked at the dog and played a little fetch with him and figured I would give him a try.
I was at there house on friday and no one was home and I could see the dog through the window. They don't have a kennel or a fenced yard so the dog stays inside all day. I am not willing to go into their house and get the dog. She did tell me in a heated conversation over the phone they are fencing the backyard this week which means that the dog will now be outside. With this in mind I am still not willing to go onto their property and open a gate. The idea of waiting outside until they let him out and then calling him to me makes alot of sense.
I talked to my neighbor who is a madison county sherrif here in Idaho and he says that I have enough proof to swear out a warrent for his arrest in the state of Idaho but that does no good in the state of Utah. However it will be easier to get law enforcement help with the warrent. I am also going to see if I can get the warrent reciprocated in the state of Utah. I am starting to think that I can get this done without court or a lawyer.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:28 pm

submoa75 wrote: I am not willing to go into their house and get the dog. She did tell me in a heated conversation over the phone they are fencing the backyard this week which means that the dog will now be outside. With this in mind I am still not willing to go onto their property and open a gate. The idea of waiting outside until they let him out and then calling him to me makes alot of sense.

After a week or so of the lab in the house, and the expense of the fence, I am suprised they don't just give you the dog back? Yeah, you DEFINITELY don't want to go in the house. I might simply open a gate - just depends on the whole set-up. Especially if there are not any no tresspassing signs, and no one seems to be around.

This whole thing is just BS. You get a pup, raise it for a year, housebreak it, pay vet bills, and boom, now it's theirs???? Either we don't have the whole story or these people have no sense of what is right and wrong.

This whole thing really irks me. I am generally willing to take a lot, but in this case if I didn't get my way I would make it my hobby to bug the heck out of these people. I am almost tempted to do it on your behalf

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:55 pm

You have the whole story. The one part that I didn't say anything about is that the previous owners claim that the lady that found the dog threatened to shoot the dogs if someone didn't come get them right away. When I confronted her about the accusation the lady who found them was absolutly apauled at the idea she would shoot the dogs and further it makes no sense that the brittany got to stay there another day without getting shot.
It pisses me off more than anybody. I can't even begin to understand the thought process that led them to believe that they are justified in taking a dog they no longer own just because they got a phone call asking them if they knew anything about the dog. It's theft any way I look at it. I think it is a case of sellers remorse. They saw a chance to get a dog back and they took it.

mm · Post by mm » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:15 am

I would gather up all the info that says the dog is yours.
Pictures

statments from friends and family.

vet bills and statments

most important statment from lady who gave the dog to them by mistake.
get to her fast before she changes her mind about getting involved.

Try to get statments notorized

go to police speak to detectives and show your case. make a report that the dog is stolden in your local area. If they do warrant great.

now go to other state and go to police. show report and info and tell them where dog is and ask for them to go get dog and arrest whoever is ther for criminal possesion of stolden property.

Dog should be photographed as evidence and returned to you.

If guy comes to your state call police and have him arrested for first report in your state.

I would do this and not call or threaten the people and dont tip your hand or feel sorry for them have an arrest made. There is proable cause for and arrest you my have to argue with cops or da because they may want to fluff you off to civil court but this is a criminal matter.
Good luck
keep us posted.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:33 am

I see the title of this is need legal advice but it seems most of what you got was illegal advice. What a perfect way to get yourself i a heap of trouble.

Ezzy

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:52 am

Well Ezzy I guess I'll add some

possession is 9/10'ts of the law I would be quiet, erase everything you said on here and go get the dog.

Take a couple days off, watch their house and when they let the dog out to pee call him and leave with him.

But thats just me

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:40 am

I'm with bobman.

I would take whatever documents you can get together in case you "need them", but I would wait for the right moment and grab the dog.

See ya.

The police aren't going to let you take the dog. The only other option is the court system. No thanks.

Get your dog and put the burden of proof on them.

mm · Post by mm » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:51 am

This dog is stolden property, prove its yours and the police will have no choice but to recover it and return it. This is done all the time with other propety. This is the same as say a camera being taken from a car you ID the property and the guy that has it has a real problem. The key is to gather up the info as proof of ownership. I dont think the theif has any proof or picture or vet bills to say the dog is his. You should be able to get the dog back and the theif arrested. Find a cop who is willing to do his job and you will win. This is the proper legal way to do this. If you snatch the dog back you run the risk of getting caught and looking like you are in the wrong. Be aware that cameras are every place you can or can not think of plus every kid with a cell phone is now in possision of a video camera. You could turn this into a nightmare for yourself instead of this thief.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:48 am

ezzy333 wrote:I see the title of this is need legal advice but it seems most of what you got was illegal advice. What a perfect way to get yourself i a heap of trouble.

Ezzy

If someone took your kid's bike and you saw it on their lawn, would you not take it?

What do you think is the illegal advice given?

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:50 am

Best advice so you don't get in trouble: go talk to your State's Attorney and the State's Attorney in the county where the last owners live. As of now, because animals are still considered personal property, it seems to me like you could press criminal charges for theft. (The civil theory would be conversion, but that would cost you $$ on a civil attorney - see what the State's Attorney can do for you first).

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:54 am

gar-dog wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I see the title of this is need legal advice but it seems most of what you got was illegal advice. What a perfect way to get yourself i a heap of trouble.

Ezzy
If someone took your kid's bike and you saw it on their lawn, would you not take it?

What do you think is the illegal advice given?

It depends on what you can do about it. If it's on their lawn, yeah. If it's in their house, heck no. You can't get it without a breach of the peace and you may be subject to a criminal trespass charge.

The law does not advocate self-help measures.

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:11 am

O.K. here is an update. I talked to the county attorney today and he said if I can prove that the dog is worth more than $1000 with all the other evidence we can push for a felony warrent which can be taken across state lines. The dog is unpapered but he is a fully trained duck dog dog and a pretty good upland dog. He is blind broke, whistle trained, and does very well with hand signals. I wouldn't say he is finished but he a lot further than started. What do you retriever guys think he worth? How do I prove what he is worth?

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:56 am

Go to a retriever forum and try to find finished dogs for sale, and print out a few of the posts.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:16 am

submoa75 wrote:O.K. here is an update. I talked to the county attorney today and he said if I can prove that the dog is worth more than $1000 with all the other evidence we can push for a felony warrent which can be taken across state lines. The dog is unpapered but he is a fully trained duck dog dog and a pretty good upland dog. He is blind broke, whistle trained, and does very well with hand signals. I wouldn't say he is finished but he a lot further than started. What do you retriever guys think he worth? How do I prove what he is worth?

I would say the dog is worth about $2000 with that much training. What I would do is find out how much a trainer would charge to train a dog to that level, factor in all of the vet care, price of a Lab, etc. Fully trained bird dogs aren't cheap.

I was going to mention the transport of stolen property across state lines which is a felony but you beat me to it!

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:21 am

I saw your post about the value of your dog. I know he's unpapered, but did they ever tell you who he's out of. Not that you could prove it, but it would give some kind of comparison if registered pups had been sold out of that sire or dam. I don't know if it makes a difference in the dog world if he's been neutered or not--maybe he would have more value if he weren't and could still sire. I'm sure quite a few of us have paid that much for a 8 week old puppy--with no training (just that fancy pedigree). So I can't imagine you couldn't claim he was worth that much, minus the pedigree, but plus the training. You can't hunt a piece of paper.

It seems like you have an overwhelming amount of evidence in your favor, not to mention your recent post, about the lady finding both dogs together. Just another nail in their coffin, to prove that the lab was yours too. I hope this warrant thing works out for you.

I would shy away from giving the thieves any advanced notice that you are coming, with the police or not. It wouldn't take anything for them to foster the dog out for a while, and tell the police it went missing. Then all is lost.

PS--I wouldn't go into anyone's house to get back my dog, but I wouldn't hesitate to get her from a yard by the cover of darkness. Everybody feels differently about their dogs--but mine are like my children. Mess with my dog......mess with me!

Born2Hunt · Post by **Born2Hunt** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:16 pm

Do you know any trainers that can write you up a reciept for training???

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:49 pm

These folks knowingly committed a fraud. When the lady called and said she'd found their dog they knew it wasn't "their dog" but your's.

When the crossed state lines in order to pick up the dog which they committed a fraud to get, they comitted a felony.

When they took that dog back across state lines they comitted another one.

Now they are refusing to release the property to you that they know in fact is yours, that is theft.

Go to a retriever forum and as someone said print off the list of ads for dogs trained to a similar level.

Call two or three lab trainers and get them to type up estimates for training a dog to that level.

The training alone exceeds the $1,000.00 threshold.

Or simply get on the phone with the people and tell them what you are going to do IF the dog is not immediately returned. CR

submoa75 · Post by **submoa75** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:29 pm

That gives me some good ideas. Thanks guys. I just found a voice mail on my cell from the guy who has the lab. In the voice mail he says that the dog is not his anymore that he did give him to me and he is in possetion of the dog right now but is not going to give it back to me because it broke his little girls heart when he gave him to me the first time and he is not willing to do it again. With the amount of evidence I have if I don't get this dog back the system doesn't work., Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know what happens.

Tejas · Post by **Tejas** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:16 pm

Probably stating the obvious, but don't erase that voicemail. That's pretty good evidence.

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I need legal advice for stolen Lab

I need legal advice for stolen Lab

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