My wife and I had a deposit on a GSP when we found out she was pregnant. We talked w/ our breeder and he graciously allowed us to back out w/ return of our deposit. We both feel it was the right choice being first time parents.
Now, I'm even more confident that we made the right choice because we know we do not want a puppy. We want a started/finished dog. I found a DK near us that had been raised around newborns, but unfortunately, I did not jump in time. To make a long story short, one of the owners buddy's got in contact with me about a 4yr. old GSP that is pretty much finished, obedience trained, housebroken, and has been raised around newborns.
With that, what are your opinions, experiences, pros/cons, to having a dog and a newborn at the same time? Also, what do you guys do when you go on vacation? -that question was from my wife. I tell her we would board her or bring her along...but if you have other ideas.
Chris
GSP and newborn?
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WildRose
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Normally I would say no problem whatsoever if we were talking about a situation where the dog was already part of the family and then the baby comes along later. I also think that when you bring a puppy into a home and essentially raise it and the baby together you have an ideal situation.
In this case I don't know that I'd say it's such a great idea. You are taking an adult male from a situation he's comfortable with and has been raised int to bring into your home. This always requires some adjustment, and if it does create any issues having a newborn to add to the mix could result in some serious problems.
I would not nix the whole idea outright but I would insist on being able to have about a month or two for a "trial period" just in case.
I would absolutely not advise allowing any opportunity for the dog to be unsupervised around the baby for a long time. CR
In this case I don't know that I'd say it's such a great idea. You are taking an adult male from a situation he's comfortable with and has been raised int to bring into your home. This always requires some adjustment, and if it does create any issues having a newborn to add to the mix could result in some serious problems.
I would not nix the whole idea outright but I would insist on being able to have about a month or two for a "trial period" just in case.
I would absolutely not advise allowing any opportunity for the dog to be unsupervised around the baby for a long time. CR
There's a reason I like dogs better'n people
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BigShooter
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WolfMansDad
We are in a similar situation. Last year I bought a new pup (llewellin setter) and brought him home at eight weeks of age at the end of March 2007. In August, we discovered my wife was pregnant. The baby was born almost three weeks ago, and the pup is now fifteen months old. For us, this is child number three and dog number two, and things are working out well. No way, though, would I try and handle a first pup and first baby at the same time! Nor would I bring an adult dog into a new home and then spring a new baby on him. That would be too much.
Pup is a little upset at no longer being the baby of the house - he peed in the house a few times after we got home from the hospital - but he loves the new (human) baby anyway. Older dog is fiercely protective of the new baby and keeps pup in line. Neither, however, is allowed around the baby unsupervised.
The main problem I have faced is lack of birds for training. Reasonably or not, I feared keeping pigeons around my pregnant wife due to the diseases they can carry. I turned all mine loose after we found out we were expecting, and events conspired to keep me from getting quail. As a result, pup is a little behind in his training.
Pup is a little upset at no longer being the baby of the house - he peed in the house a few times after we got home from the hospital - but he loves the new (human) baby anyway. Older dog is fiercely protective of the new baby and keeps pup in line. Neither, however, is allowed around the baby unsupervised.
The main problem I have faced is lack of birds for training. Reasonably or not, I feared keeping pigeons around my pregnant wife due to the diseases they can carry. I turned all mine loose after we found out we were expecting, and events conspired to keep me from getting quail. As a result, pup is a little behind in his training.
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WildRose
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Actually I was reading too fast and missed the fact that it's a female.BigShooter wrote:I noticed Charlie said "adult male" when your post specified that it was an adult female. However, a different gender does not change the recommendations.
That does change my recommendation. Typically GSP females have very strong mothering instincts and those instincts cross species lines. Most of the females I've had (quite a few) are much gentler with small children than their male counterparts, and typically dote over the children even though we have none.
I would be much more comfortable with bringing a female into this situation than I would a male, but I would still require the same understood "trial period" and supervise all interactions between the dog and child until I was absolutely comfortable with them being together.
Tell you wife not to freak out if the dog "helps" keep the baby clean, but warn her to be sure and put dirty diapers where the dog can't get to them HA! CR
There's a reason I like dogs better'n people
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BigShooter
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Charlie,
I don't disagree with your last post but still feel these initial recommendations are good advice:
[quote) I would insist on being able to have about a month or two for a "trial period" just in case.
I would absolutely not advise allowing any opportunity for the dog to be unsupervised around the baby for a long time. [/quote]
Mark
I don't disagree with your last post but still feel these initial recommendations are good advice:
[quote) I would insist on being able to have about a month or two for a "trial period" just in case.
I would absolutely not advise allowing any opportunity for the dog to be unsupervised around the baby for a long time. [/quote]
Mark
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bionerd76
A benefit to this trial period is that if we do get the dog, she will spend the entire summer with me, my wife, and child since we are both teachers. I think that will help acclimate the dog to the new surroundings.WildRose wrote:I would be much more comfortable with bringing a female into this situation than I would a male, but I would still require the same understood "trial period" and supervise all interactions between the dog and child until I was absolutely comfortable with them being together.
My issue right now is, am I going to create more stress for the family by getting a dog? I'd like to say no, but the in-laws are now involved and my patience are wearing thin. I have heard both sides from those I talk to. I'm not an easily influenced person and when I make up my mind that is it. However, I have to consider my wife's feelings and now she is put in the middle because of her parents.
On the other hand, I don't know why I don't just get the dog. I guess a part of me knows that it's a bit nuts to bring a new dog into the home with a 7wk old baby. However, I feel I've done my research and the dog, according to the owner, is a fit for our family just as it has been a fit for theirs. The adjustment to our family will be the tell-tale sign.
My wife's concerns are: What do we do with the dog when we go on vacation, away for the weekend, etc.? I think she feels like it's going to be a bit of a burden where I see it as a positive. I know there's going to be more dialog between the two of us. Introspectively speaking, I sometimes think I'm being a bit selfish....but then I tell myself it's a hunting dog!!!...and a family companion.
Chris
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BigShooter
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Chris,
I feel for you. Been there ... done that. Dogs do tie you down more. If the dog doesn't go with you on trips, getting a dog sitter for weekends and vacations will require more effort and advanced planning.
My wife has never liked us owning dogs even though she adopted a stray once that showed up at our cabin when she was staying with her mom and the kids while I was working.
Our present personal dog is sweet tempered. My wife pets her and comments about what a sweet, well mannered dog she is but still complains regularly that weekends and vacations are more difficult and if it was up to her we wouldn't own any dogs.
My wife also doesn't like my going hunting with our sons and my brothers even though she has been invited and encouraged to participate.
Based upon what little you have explained about your situation:
Some women inherently have a deep need to control you and the family. If your wife doesn't like you leaving her to go hunting, the dog represents a further commitment to an activity that takes you away from her control. For some couples this can represent a lifelong conflict. If you can't resolve this through good communication with each other be prepared to live with the consequences of an unhappy wife. If you really love her you'll place her needs/wants above your own .... but if she really loves you she'll place your needs/wants above hers. Ties always go to the woman !!!
The newborn is being used as added leverage against you but if you compromise I would trade a commitment from you to not get a dog now for a commitment from her that you can get a hunting dog and the time frame when that'll happen.
No question if you get the dog there will be more stress unless your wife is totally happy with the decision. Without any objections or reluctance on your wife's part IMO your family would be able to handle the stress of a dog and a new baby.
IMHO,
Mark
I feel for you. Been there ... done that. Dogs do tie you down more. If the dog doesn't go with you on trips, getting a dog sitter for weekends and vacations will require more effort and advanced planning.
My wife has never liked us owning dogs even though she adopted a stray once that showed up at our cabin when she was staying with her mom and the kids while I was working.
Our present personal dog is sweet tempered. My wife pets her and comments about what a sweet, well mannered dog she is but still complains regularly that weekends and vacations are more difficult and if it was up to her we wouldn't own any dogs.
My wife also doesn't like my going hunting with our sons and my brothers even though she has been invited and encouraged to participate.
Based upon what little you have explained about your situation:
Some women inherently have a deep need to control you and the family. If your wife doesn't like you leaving her to go hunting, the dog represents a further commitment to an activity that takes you away from her control. For some couples this can represent a lifelong conflict. If you can't resolve this through good communication with each other be prepared to live with the consequences of an unhappy wife. If you really love her you'll place her needs/wants above your own .... but if she really loves you she'll place your needs/wants above hers. Ties always go to the woman !!!
The newborn is being used as added leverage against you but if you compromise I would trade a commitment from you to not get a dog now for a commitment from her that you can get a hunting dog and the time frame when that'll happen.
No question if you get the dog there will be more stress unless your wife is totally happy with the decision. Without any objections or reluctance on your wife's part IMO your family would be able to handle the stress of a dog and a new baby.
IMHO,
Mark
Sigh...........
I am crazy about dogs and cannot believe I'm doing this but my advice is to pass on this dog and wait a year or two. I am saying this as a father of five and a husband of 23 years.
Your life is about to change in ways that you cannot imagine. Since this is your first child, I am assuming that you are young and in the first few years of your marriage. Very exciting times lie ahead for both you and your wife. Go with your instinct that the timing is not right for the dog.
My wife has never been crazy about my dogs or my hunting but she does realize that this is really important to me and because she loves me she tolerates my addiction. Your wife will too, but this is not the time to be asking for that.
And when you tell her you've decided to wait tell her it's for her and your baby. If your going to give in you may as well give in big!
Let us know what you decide!
Tom
I am crazy about dogs and cannot believe I'm doing this but my advice is to pass on this dog and wait a year or two. I am saying this as a father of five and a husband of 23 years.
Your life is about to change in ways that you cannot imagine. Since this is your first child, I am assuming that you are young and in the first few years of your marriage. Very exciting times lie ahead for both you and your wife. Go with your instinct that the timing is not right for the dog.
My wife has never been crazy about my dogs or my hunting but she does realize that this is really important to me and because she loves me she tolerates my addiction. Your wife will too, but this is not the time to be asking for that.
And when you tell her you've decided to wait tell her it's for her and your baby. If your going to give in you may as well give in big!
Let us know what you decide!
Tom
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BigShooter
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As a father of four and a husband of 34 years I will tell you some wives will never tolerate your addiction.windswept wrote: My wife has never been crazy about my dogs or my hunting but she does realize that this is really important to me and because she loves me she tolerates my addiction. Your wife will too, but this is not the time to be asking for that.
And when you tell her you've decided to wait tell her it's for her and your baby. If your going to give in you may as well give in big!
Tom
Do not put off addressing issues in your marriage. IMO problems not dealt with immediately have a tendency to grow bigger over time. The old "give an inch and lose a mile" scenario. I suggest you talk it through to a mutual understanding of when the time will be right for you to add a dog to the family.
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prairiefire
My husband had toyed with the idea of surprising me with a puppy (the old "giving me the gift he really wanted for himself" trick), right around the time I found out I was pregnant with our youngest. Fortunately, he let it slip and we decided to put it off.
As you're learning now, newborns are really, really demanding. And for your wife, between the sleepless nights and feeling as if you've been reduced to nothing more than a dairy cow, I can understand your wife's reservations.
I LOVE dogs, don't hunt--but certainly support my husband's habit, and--when the time was right--would have been thrilled with the idea of bringing a dog into our home. But had I had to deal with a puppy and new baby at the same time, I'm afraid that between the lack of sleep and added stress, I may have reacted in not so pretty ways. Sleeping in two hour shifts just does that to a person.
If you decide this dog is really "the one" and your wife is on board, I'd highly recommend you at least wait to bring her home after you've finished up with the school year. If your wife is the one juggling a new dog and new baby at home by herself all day, it could result in some serious resentment.
As you're learning now, newborns are really, really demanding. And for your wife, between the sleepless nights and feeling as if you've been reduced to nothing more than a dairy cow, I can understand your wife's reservations.
I LOVE dogs, don't hunt--but certainly support my husband's habit, and--when the time was right--would have been thrilled with the idea of bringing a dog into our home. But had I had to deal with a puppy and new baby at the same time, I'm afraid that between the lack of sleep and added stress, I may have reacted in not so pretty ways. Sleeping in two hour shifts just does that to a person.
If you decide this dog is really "the one" and your wife is on board, I'd highly recommend you at least wait to bring her home after you've finished up with the school year. If your wife is the one juggling a new dog and new baby at home by herself all day, it could result in some serious resentment.
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BigShooter
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Prairiefire,
I notice you said "puppy" but this is a 4 y.o. GSP he's talking about. A new puppy obviously requires a great deal more care than a mature dog.
I'm willing to bet hundreds of thousands of women (millions worldwide) have brought their first and subsequent newborns into a family that already had a dog or dogs. So really the timing of when the dog moves in versus the due date is what is critical.
I think the comment about resentment is right on point. If it's not a mutual desire to own a dog and the individual (male or female) wanting the dog will place the burden of dog care on another individual (usually a wife or mother) that wife or mother is highly likely to resent the situation. Of course living in town versus living in the country makes a huge difference as well.
I notice you said "puppy" but this is a 4 y.o. GSP he's talking about. A new puppy obviously requires a great deal more care than a mature dog.
I'm willing to bet hundreds of thousands of women (millions worldwide) have brought their first and subsequent newborns into a family that already had a dog or dogs. So really the timing of when the dog moves in versus the due date is what is critical.
I think the comment about resentment is right on point. If it's not a mutual desire to own a dog and the individual (male or female) wanting the dog will place the burden of dog care on another individual (usually a wife or mother) that wife or mother is highly likely to resent the situation. Of course living in town versus living in the country makes a huge difference as well.
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prairiefire
Yup, I realize they're not talking about a puppy (I was just referring to my situation), but there will still be a period of adjustment. And if, after a really long night with the baby, his wife lays down to catch a quick nap only to have a dog whining in her face to go out--or comes downstairs after a sleepless night to see her favorite shoes in shreds, she might lose her cool. It's already a stressful time, so I'd at least wait until there are two sets of hands to manage the situation.
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bionerd76
Well, my wife and I have talked about it a lot. She is on board with getting the dog. It may sound dumb, but I'm still second guessing myself. A lot of it depends on how well the dog adjusts to our new home.
So, if I do decide to get the dog, I'm going to do it on the condition that if the dog does not work out in 2 weeks or month due to conflict with my daughter, then we can return her with some sort of refund. If the owner isn't willing to do this, then I question his feelings for finding correct placement for his dog, which would throw up a red flag for me.
So, that is where I am at right now. I'll post back. I really appreciate all the advice. Bigshooter I shared your post with my wife and she was chuckling to herself through various parts of it. I think you made some great points and it helped open up some more questions/dialog between us.
I do have to say my wife and I have great communication and have had some really good talks about this. I'm a very analytical person so I am dissecting this decision every which way. We just need to come to a final decision and when we do, I'll post back.
Chris
So, if I do decide to get the dog, I'm going to do it on the condition that if the dog does not work out in 2 weeks or month due to conflict with my daughter, then we can return her with some sort of refund. If the owner isn't willing to do this, then I question his feelings for finding correct placement for his dog, which would throw up a red flag for me.
So, that is where I am at right now. I'll post back. I really appreciate all the advice. Bigshooter I shared your post with my wife and she was chuckling to herself through various parts of it. I think you made some great points and it helped open up some more questions/dialog between us.
I do have to say my wife and I have great communication and have had some really good talks about this. I'm a very analytical person so I am dissecting this decision every which way. We just need to come to a final decision and when we do, I'll post back.
Chris
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smackerquacker
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prairiefire
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BigShooter
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bionerd76
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earlthepearl
No idea about the baby issue since we dont have kids yet, but as far as vacations are concerned, having dogs can make things a little more difficult. We havent gone on a real vacation in 4 years, mainly due to us having 4 dogs. We take short trips and take all 4 with us. Or we just stay gone for a night and have the neighbor help out. This May will be the first time we are going on a 4 days retreat and it will be the longest I ever let my guys at home. Not sure yet who will watch them.
If you just have one dog it makes it a little easier. You could board the dog or just take her/him with you. Establish a good relationship with you vet. Often vet clinics will board dogs or know a reputable kennel.
Good luck. I hope it works out for you and your family.
If you just have one dog it makes it a little easier. You could board the dog or just take her/him with you. Establish a good relationship with you vet. Often vet clinics will board dogs or know a reputable kennel.
Good luck. I hope it works out for you and your family.
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bionerd76
I know I said this before, but thank you all for your advice and opinions.
My wife and I had a lot of good conversation and decided to get the dog. She will be in our house on June 1st. The owner did agree to a full refund if after a month the dog does not work out with our newborn. We are going to meet halfway at a wildlife area and work her so I can get an idea on how she handles and the commands used.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Chris
My wife and I had a lot of good conversation and decided to get the dog. She will be in our house on June 1st. The owner did agree to a full refund if after a month the dog does not work out with our newborn. We are going to meet halfway at a wildlife area and work her so I can get an idea on how she handles and the commands used.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Chris
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prairiefire
very good advice
except that I've been married a few more years this is exactly my situtation, I would put it off.windswept wrote:Sigh...........
I am crazy about dogs and cannot believe I'm doing this but my advice is to pass on this dog and wait a year or two. I am saying this as a father of five and a husband of 23 years.
Your life is about to change in ways that you cannot imagine. Since this is your first child, I am assuming that you are young and in the first few years of your marriage. Very exciting times lie ahead for both you and your wife. Go with your instinct that the timing is not right for the dog.
My wife has never been crazy about my dogs or my hunting but she does realize that this is really important to me and because she loves me she tolerates my addiction. Your wife will too, but this is not the time to be asking for that.
And when you tell her you've decided to wait tell her it's for her and your baby. If your going to give in you may as well give in big!
Let us know what you decide!
Tom
ALso even well adjusted dogs go through some stress when they are rehomed and that takes special work and considerations, I've been rescuing dogs for years and sometimes its a done deal in a few days once in a while it takes months. And some of these rescues are very good dogs that just end up in a sitatuation where the owners can't keep them.
On the other hand your wife is going to have a new love and you will be a distant second for many years so having a dog to show you some affection is a welcome thing.
As for vacations most of mine are hunts or visiting friends or family, they know the dogs come with me or I don't come.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol
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bionerd76
Re: GSP and newborn?
Well, here's the only pic I have. I'll have more come June!
Chris
Chris
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BigShooter
- GDF Junkie
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Re: GSP and newborn?
Chris,
Nice pic. It's the good looking one in the foreground, right?
Mark
Nice pic. It's the good looking one in the foreground, right?
Mark
Mark
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
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bionerd76
Re: GSP and newborn?
Yes, you are correct. I'm chomping at the bit to get her. Looking forward to a, hopefully, smooth transition into the family.
Chris
Chris
Re: GSP and newborn?
Bionerd76,
I'm from the West Kankakee area,
As for vacationing, check out Topono's Pet Resort. THey are in Momence their ph# is 472-6836. You can find it in the phone book too. I have friends that highly recommend this place. Actually they are on a 12 day vacation right now with their pets there.
I myself have never used it because I myself am waiting 3 more weeks for my pup to arrive. My friends love their dog very much and worry about things such as this so take it for what it's worth. Seems like a place to check out to me once I get my pup. Just call and get some info from them. Ibelieve at this place the dogs get out each day for some "free time". They said they looked all over and this was by far the best place.
Not sure on costs or anything but it's something you can check out. I'd ask my friends but they are on a boat somewhere by the Virgin Islands.
On a side note, you live in town here where will you be hunting come this fall?
I'm from the West Kankakee area,
As for vacationing, check out Topono's Pet Resort. THey are in Momence their ph# is 472-6836. You can find it in the phone book too. I have friends that highly recommend this place. Actually they are on a 12 day vacation right now with their pets there.
I myself have never used it because I myself am waiting 3 more weeks for my pup to arrive. My friends love their dog very much and worry about things such as this so take it for what it's worth. Seems like a place to check out to me once I get my pup. Just call and get some info from them. Ibelieve at this place the dogs get out each day for some "free time". They said they looked all over and this was by far the best place.
Not sure on costs or anything but it's something you can check out. I'd ask my friends but they are on a boat somewhere by the Virgin Islands.
On a side note, you live in town here where will you be hunting come this fall?
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bionerd76
Re: GSP and newborn?
Thanks for the info. I've heard about Topono's. I also was recommended O'Connell's Kennels in Limestone. They are around $12/day. I'll definitely have to look at Topono's since Momence is really only 15 minutes or so from me.
I recently joined a hunt club that has a lease off of Rt.113 and Bauer road. It's just a plot of land that they release birds. I planned on going to Iroquois, but Blago may have ruined that for all of us. I also have a spot out in Limestone township that a buddy of mine owns.
Where do you hunt? Do you just do upland game or deer/turkey too?
Chris
I recently joined a hunt club that has a lease off of Rt.113 and Bauer road. It's just a plot of land that they release birds. I planned on going to Iroquois, but Blago may have ruined that for all of us. I also have a spot out in Limestone township that a buddy of mine owns.
Where do you hunt? Do you just do upland game or deer/turkey too?
Chris
Re: GSP and newborn?
Chris,
Sounds like maybe you maybe from my neck of the woods with all that limestone and bauer road talk. I grew up in Bonfield. Most of my family is out in that area(Bonfield) and with my uncles being farmers and knowing several others, I have access to several thousand acres throughout that area. Of course most is farmland but there are plenty of ditches, fencelines, and woods that borders all of these fields. Enough that it would take a couple of days to walk all of it. My Mom and soon to be stepdad??? just moved up into the Three Lakes area in Wisconsin. They just started running a deer farm up there called Three Lakes Preserve last August. So... Looks like another 650 acres up there for grouse and I get to shoot the small wild deer if I want too.
I have to pay for the monster bucks. 
Oh yeah, I'm also a member of the South Wilmington Sportsmen's Club out in Essex.
As far as what kind of hunting I do, I have in the past deer hunted and upland game hunt. With a 4 year old and being married only a couple of years, I haven't really made the time to get out much. Finally getting settled down. This year however, I plan to change all of that with this new Brittany pup I'm getting.
With as many turkey as there are next to my dad's in Bonfield and as many as I seen in Wisconsin this year, I have been considering getting into that.
Can you give me some info about the Hunt Club? What's the name of it? It must be closer to Custer Park right? Closer to all the woods out there. It's been like 5 or 6 years since I've been down that road.
Sounds like maybe you maybe from my neck of the woods with all that limestone and bauer road talk. I grew up in Bonfield. Most of my family is out in that area(Bonfield) and with my uncles being farmers and knowing several others, I have access to several thousand acres throughout that area. Of course most is farmland but there are plenty of ditches, fencelines, and woods that borders all of these fields. Enough that it would take a couple of days to walk all of it. My Mom and soon to be stepdad??? just moved up into the Three Lakes area in Wisconsin. They just started running a deer farm up there called Three Lakes Preserve last August. So... Looks like another 650 acres up there for grouse and I get to shoot the small wild deer if I want too.
I have to pay for the monster bucks. Oh yeah, I'm also a member of the South Wilmington Sportsmen's Club out in Essex.As far as what kind of hunting I do, I have in the past deer hunted and upland game hunt. With a 4 year old and being married only a couple of years, I haven't really made the time to get out much. Finally getting settled down. This year however, I plan to change all of that with this new Brittany pup I'm getting.
With as many turkey as there are next to my dad's in Bonfield and as many as I seen in Wisconsin this year, I have been considering getting into that.
Can you give me some info about the Hunt Club? What's the name of it? It must be closer to Custer Park right? Closer to all the woods out there. It's been like 5 or 6 years since I've been down that road.
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TimH
Re: GSP and newborn?
I loved reading this post! I went 100 percent against my wifes wishes and got a puppy when she was very pregnant. It is almost the same age as my daughter to the day. She "bleep" near killed me when she saw it and I was actually in my truck to take him back when she stopped me. We now have an incredible dog that is very comfortable living outside when necessary (he shares his dog house with me) and is a great friend to my daughter. We spend daddy time together training the dog, she carries a whistle and hides the dummies for me. Me and the girls are now looking forward to a lifelong activity that we can always share. So THERE WIFEY!
I use this moment of spinal fortitude as my inspiration when I come up with new plans.
I use this moment of spinal fortitude as my inspiration when I come up with new plans.
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bionerd76
Re: GSP and newborn?
Great post...good for a laugh. It's also encouraging. I know my wife says she wants a dog, I just don't think she really feels that now is the best time for it. She won't admit that though. Now, I'm getting all the questions like, "what do you need that for" or "how much did that cost" regarding pretty much everything I buy. As long as the dog works out for us, I can live with that.
Chris
Chris