DeCoverly English Setters??

NovaDD · Post by **NovaDD** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:01 am

Being that I have never been interested in looking into Setters as a choice of dog I just came across the kennel by accident. WOW does it seem to have a enormous facility and beautiful dogs as well. I have been told its one of the top setter programs and facilities in the country (not to mention, their the largest concentration of setters in North America, and maybe the world). Some of you may be shocked that I have never heard about this kennel. I am sure I have properly seen their ads but just never thought twice about it. I have always looked into versatile dogs (GSP/DD). All the hunting setters I have come across have been pretty scruffy looking. Although my expereince with hunting setters is very limited maybe 6 and most were from the same breeder. This is just seeing them but never hunting behind one. Any opinions on the kennel or DeCoverly Setter owners out there? They are only a hour from me so I am defiantely going to have to make an appointment to take a tour. I had found a new quail breeder closer to me and he happens to have two from the kennel (have not seen them yet) However, this is what got me to search the kennel. I'll defiantely have to see if I can catch the episode they did on the outdoor channel ( I believe they also sell it on their website)

Thanks for any info

http://www.decoverlykennels.com/contact.htm

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:16 am

wow. I have never heard of them either (gsp person, myself) but they do look to have an impressive facility. I also would love to hear from anyone who might know more about these dogs and their abilities.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:43 am

The setters they breed don't really look like the setters you are probably used to seeing. I believe it is a heavy line-bred version to keep a specific older style intact. You could possibly argue it is its own breed. I looked into them about a year ago but never made it over there. Their dogs are very expensive too. These setters are large, lopey dogs. It sounds like they are ideal for the foot huunter - reminiscent of how a spinone italiano works.

Their facility is huge and they do a lot of advertising, so they have to charge alot. Given the size of the operation, I would want to get comfortable about the socialization of pups.

What's weird to me is - they are SO big, but why don't I know or hear of anyone with their dogs? They are only 2 hours from me!

My next comment has no merit for you - but the operation seems a little creepy to me.

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:09 am

does seem odd that personal experience with an operation that large is yet to be posted....went all over that web site and never saw a pedigree link or anything to document success in the field or conformation ring....

not saying it hasn't happened but if it were my site, I'd sure make that element evident

NovaDD · Post by **NovaDD** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:38 am

gar-dog wrote:The setters they breed don't really look like the setters you are probably used to seeing. I believe it is a heavy line-bred version to keep a specific older style intact. You could possibly argue it is its own breed. I looked into them about a year ago but never made it over there. Their dogs are very expensive too. These setters are large, lopey dogs. It sounds like they are ideal for the foot huunter - reminiscent of how a spinone italiano works.

Their facility is huge and they do a lot of advertising, so they have to charge alot. Given the size of the operation, I would want to get comfortable about the socialization of pups.

What's weird to me is - they are SO big, but why don't I know or hear of anyone with their dogs? They are only 2 hours from me!

My next comment has no merit for you - but the operation seems a little creepy to me.

I have to agree about the socilaition process although they have a program in place. However, depending how may litters they have a year who knows how much time they have for them. They also have about a hundred dogs so I am curious how much those dogs get out and really hunt! I also would like to know more about the pedigrees and hunting or hunt tests they do with their dogs if any. Since they have SOO MANY dogs they cant put them all on the internet is my guess. Since they breed for dual setters they do have the look of a show dog and apparently the hunting ability of a field dog. I do like looks which might be suprising to some since I have DD's. However, I would not want a really slow dog in the field. On the other hand I am not looking for a field trail dog either. Looking forward to planning a time to go there though. Defiantely something worth seeing. Just how expensive are we talking for a puppy? From what I have read I am thinking they might have different price ranges depnding on what two dogs are being breed.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:29 am

It is definitely worth a look - just don't get too wow'd when you're out there. I wish I had gone, but I got "hung up" at Pocono Manor the day I was supposed to visit. The word "slow" is relative. If hunting the northeast by foot, I cannot imagine any dog would be considered too slow. Field trialing - that is a different story. Anyway, my guess is these dogs aren't trialed.

I am reluctant to post an e-mail from someone, but this is what I got last year from them:

".............Our dogs make great hunting dogs, that is why we do what we do.But they are also great in the house as pets. We are breeding the setters to look like they are supposed to, while maintaining natural hunting ability. DeCoverly pups are priced from $1300 and up, depending on quality of structure. Started dogs are $3000 and up , depending on level of training.

All of our breeding stock is Penn Hipped for hip dysplasia , and are not bred unless the are in the top half of the program. We BAER (hearing) test all pups, microchip all pups, and have a TEN year genetic health guarantee (money back) for crippling or disabling problems. We also offer 3 free training visits, to help you get the best possible gundog and companion.

It is recommended that if and when you are committed to getting a dog from us that you let us know what sex and what color and when you might be ready , and we will put you on the list . The wait can be 2 days to 6 months depending on what you are looking for and what we have coming available

Kennel hours are Tues through Sunday, 8:00am - 5:00pm Appointments Please. I am attaching our questionnaire, please reply if interested so we can help you best. It also has some links to further information about this type of dog. There is also a book out on the history of this kennel, more specifially this line of dogs, which date back to the early 1900's. The book is "A Gentleman's Shooting Dog" and is available on our website at the link below..............."

K.K. · Post by **K.K.** » Sat May 17, 2008 1:05 pm

They breed awesome "Dual Type" setters that are mainly for grouse hunting.

NovaDD · Post by **NovaDD** » Sat May 17, 2008 1:23 pm

Thanks for the info gar-dog and for sharing the letter.

K.K So although they would excel at grouse hunting would they also not be suitable for other upland? Or can they only really handle grouse well?

Do you own or have you owned a DeCoverly dog? Or hunted behind one?

Thanks!

K.K. · Post by **K.K.** » Sat May 17, 2008 1:56 pm

I have not owned or hunted behind one. These are the same type dog George Bird Evans owned and bred. They are well suited for grouse hunting and I believe GBE also hunted other types of upland game with his Old Hemlock line of setters. I would venture to say for any type of upland game that you will be hunting on foot, where you don't have to have a dog that busts the horizon, that these setters would do well.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:17 pm

DeCoverly Setters are from the old Ryman gun dogs. George Ryman died in 61 and his wife Ellen ran it by her-self till she married Carl Calkinses in 63. Ken Alexander had become friends with the Calkinses and had started getting some key dogs from them in the early 70s. In 75 they sold 70 dogs and the rights to the Ryman name to Robert Sumner. Ken was to help with the some of the breeding. In 77 things did not work out and parted ways, with Bob and later that year the kennel closed. Nobody knows what happend to all those dogs. Carl and Ellen helped Ken get started and come up with the name DeCoverly Kennels. The name of the dog that started it all with George Ryman was Sir Rodger DeCoverly. So they name the new kennels DeCoverly. Ken and Calkinses had a falling out when Ken became good friends with George Bird Evans. George Bird Evans started his kennels with a blue belton from Ryman in 39. Just al ittle history..........Scott

K.K. · Post by **K.K.** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:01 pm

Those are some nice looking setters on your website Scott

GSP9 · Post by **GSP9** » Sun May 18, 2008 4:58 am

I live farily close to Decoverly and know of a few people with their dogs. They have had nothing but good things to say about them, but I would have a hard time forking over $2000 for a pup. I am sure they are fine Grouse dogs, but if I wanted an English Setter to hunt Grouse and Woodcock I would certainly go with one of the cover dog bred lines. Just my style I guess.

I may try to get over there and take a look around sometine. The facility and operation is impressive.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:52 am

Whenever you see a add for them in the magazine it just says "DeCoverly" with a head of a setter, thats it. There name is enough. Harley Jackson did a show there not to long ago unless it was a re-run i seen.

A gal around here has a DeCoverly female. The dog is just a companion i believe she adopted, does not hunt.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:02 am

I would never spend over $500 for a pup! I don't care what title was on the facility. There's too many great papered pups available for a lot less.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:38 am

big steve46 wrote:I would never spend over $500 for a pup! I don't care what title was on the facility. There's too many great papered pups available for a lot less.

I agree. There are just to many really good dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 am

People sure do get proud of their dogs when it comes to raising and selling pups. Somehow we need to get some common sense back into our hobbies.

Ezzy

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:43 am

Well, I am not sure what constititutes the "Gentleman Hunter" that they refer to on their site and I'm pretty sure that I have never met one but I am guessing that they are the only ones that can afford one of their dogs.

Give me a "good ole boy hunter" and a "good ole boy's affordable dog" any time.

I spend enough on mine after I got them home without that kind of intitial out-lay for a pup.

K.K. · Post by **K.K.** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:14 am

I guess some people enjoy certain types of dogs and hunting upland game in a certain manner. Some hunters will spend a few thousand dollars on a particular brand of gun and I guess they will do the same in obtaining certain bloodlines of bird dogs. I don't see it being any different than buying a name brand e-collar instead of an off brand, or wearing Filson hunting attire instead of Wal-Mart. I can't fault a person for spending the money they have earned however the please. If it brings them pleasure far be it from me to knock them for it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:37 am

Good point KK. So many things I question the wisdom of but have found everyone has to make their own decisions and their own mistakes before they really learn much.

Ezzy

Fair Fields · Post by **Fair Fields** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:03 am

I think it should be noted that there is a distinction between Old Hemlock Setters and Ryman/Decoverly Setters. In my opinion, they are not the same but are sometimes linked bcause they are similar. They are often lumped together as Dual type or Old Timey Setters. It is my experience that OH tend to have a bit more athletism. I believe Roger Brown is now the caretaker to the OH line as Ken Alexander is for the Decoverly.

It might just be me - but I wasn't overly impressed with the show Harley Jackson did on the line. The hunting footage in the woods didn't do the dogs much justice.

I would look at Pinecoble or October Setters if I were interested in a dog of this type. One thing that makes this strand of setters difficult to evaluate is their lack of competitive arenas. They are not going to be proven in trials, tests or competitions in most cases. Most guys I know that have this type of dog prove them on grouse and as family companions. That being said, without a proven trial or test record I would never buy one without seeing the parents work. The low tail on point should not be faulted in this line - as it is a characteristic of the line. These dogs DO NOT handle heavy pressure well. They respond best to a training program heavy in praise and positive exposure to birds and hunting.

Just my 2 cents. I owned an OH setter. I also researched the potential for another until I fell in love with shorthairs.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:09 am

Fair Fields, I am not for sure I am following you. The only differance I know between the dogs is that OH dogs were smaller than Rymans. The standard weight for Ryman was male 60 to 75 and females should be over 50. OH Briars weight was about 60 if my memory serves me right. What other differences are you talking about..............Scott

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:22 pm

K.K. wrote:I can't fault a person for spending the money they have earned however the please. If it brings them pleasure far be it from me to knock them for it.

KK
I can certainly see that point and don't disagree but for me and most of the folks I know $2000 on an unproven pup would excessive.

Maybe if my plans of hitting the lottery come to fruition I will get me one or two, they are certainly beautiful and I've always heard wonderful things about the setter's temperment.

My brother stole my Llewellen from me! Now that was a sweet dog!

Fair Fields · Post by **Fair Fields** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:39 pm

You just said it - OH are smaller than Rymans. This lends itself to field perfomance variations, heat tolerance, ground speed and stamina. Just my opinion. Other than that they are very similar, but I think it is unfair and disrespectful to lump the lines together.

If these dogs were exactly the same than Ken would be selling Old Hemlock setters and not Decoverly Setters.

K.K. · Post by **K.K.** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:13 pm

Fair Fields wrote:You just said it - OH are smaller than Rymans. This lends itself to field perfomance variations, heat tolerance, ground speed and stamina. Just my opinion. Other than that they are very similar, but I think it is unfair and disrespectful to lump the lines together.

If these dogs were exactly the same than Ken would be selling Old Hemlock setters and not Decoverly Setters.

Didn't mean to be disrespectful of either line. My point is both are "Dual Type" and bred with the same goal in mind. Here's a note from the Decoverly website.
George and Kay Evans (Old Hemlock) were observers of the Ryman evolution, and in 1990 George wrote in ‘George Bird Evans Introduces’, “the DeCoverly setters, which I consider the true heritage bloodline of the Ryman gun dogs.”. GBE must have been of the opinion that the lines were very close to the Ryman standard to have put this in print.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:25 pm

K.K. wrote:
George and Kay Evans (Old Hemlock) were observers of the Ryman evolution, and in 1990 George wrote in ‘George Bird Evans Introduces’, “the DeCoverly setters, which I consider the true heritage bloodline of the Ryman gun dogs.”. GBE must have been of the opinion that the lines were very close to the Ryman standard to have put this in print.

When GBE put that in print in 90, that ended the freindship between the Calkins and Ken. After the falling out betwwen the two . The Calkins started mentoring Lee and Sheila Stelrekchts who was interested in starting a kennel with the Ryman bloodlines. The name of their kennels was Bold Return Kennels...................Scott

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:21 pm

The reason they are so big is because they are from Ryman old Hemlock lines which usually are quite big. They are great hunting dogs from what I have heard and are bred for grouse and woodcock but are also great at other upland birds. Just my 2 cents.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:39 pm

The best Setter I ever hunted behind was Jack. I bought him green broke at three years of age. I had him eleven years. Like an idiot, never got a pup out of him. I never trialed, but he could have been a champion. He was a big runner, but would hunt close. Anyway, I did not get a pedigree. His reg name was BLACK JACK FROSTY 55088, his sire was Whippoorwill Jack 991941, and his dam was Stardust Di Prima 866961. He and a littermate was brought to Illinois in early 1978 from Wisconsin I believe. Has anyone heard of the parents or have any idea of the lineage?

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:00 pm

After the death of George Ryman, his second wife Ellen was overcome taking care of a very large number of setters. Ellen loved the dogs and tried to do her best but the everyday work load of kennel work, feeding, rearing, and selling as many as fifteen hundred setter puppies a year was the beginning of the operation becoming a puppy mill. After a few years the work load was just too much and that was when she sold the breeding stock and the "Ryman Prefix " to Robert Sumner in West Virginia. Robert Sumner bred the line without any regards to offering a quality gun dog, money became more important than the dogs and the dogs suffered because of the greed. I visited his operation and witnessed first hand the horror of another puppy mill operation. Viewed dogs with different eye color, ie. one brown eye and one blue eye.

Hip Dysplasia was also very noticable in that there were dogs there that had a very difficult time getting up and walking in a normal manner. What I would like to know is, if DeCoverly kennels acquired setters from this kennel to start his breeding program as they make claim, just what kind of dog did they get? The good Lord has been kind to me, have been blessed with good health and have enjoyed hunting over good setter gun dogs for 76 years now. I have been around the block and seen many good breeders that are now gone to that happy hunting grounds where I hope to meet them again again.

Over the years I have found it quite strange to see what has happened to our hunting dogs when they fall into the hands of breeders who offer a good looking store front and spend thousands of dollars to promote their wares. I'm from the old school and have learned that good gun dogs come from the small guy who runs a tight ship on a smaller scale. These small guy breeders love their dogs and work very hard in offering a good sound quality hunting companion. To me, they need no large fancy operation that sells a large number of dogs and they do not spend great deals of money promoting their breedings. The small guy breeders are out there, if you listen and heed good advise, you will find them through word of mouth.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:32 pm

This certainly is a informative history lesson on these setters. I am truly enjoying it.

Mr. Ruff it is a pleasure to welcome you to the forum and hope you will weigh in on many subjects. I like the way you think.

Rick

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:01 pm

Hello Rick!

I'm new to this kind of thing, modern technology just about passed me by in that I have only been taught to use the computer three years ago. My son is a real good teacher, tells me his teaching fee was a trade for making him such a good outdoorsman, guess he feels he got the best end of the deal. Thanks for your kind words, just wish my dear old friend, Paul Long was still alive, just know he would have enjoyed all this new technology thats available today. When it comes to hunting and shooting over good dogs, I'm always in the mood to speak my mind and give sound advise to anyone who may be interested. I just hope I'm doing this right. Take care and again, thanks for your kind words.

BirdDogDesire · Post by **BirdDogDesire** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:15 pm

Harley Jackson the host of American GunDog hunted at that kennel....great show. They hunted grouse!

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:44 pm

Don't mean to steal the thread hear but:

Mr. Ruff that is pretty neat to have had a friend like Paul Long. His book was the first training book I owned. Plain simple techniques, writing and good common sense. I still refer to it. I am at my maximum skill level writing on this forum with the computer so you are not alone

.

Rick

BirdDogDesire · Post by **BirdDogDesire** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:25 pm

I paid $600.00 for my Llewellin...I am very happy with her...should make a great bird dog.

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:13 pm

I don't know Harley Jackson of American Gun dog but I'll just bet he was paid quite a bit of money to travel to do the piece and put the DeCoverly establishment on television. I quess that's alright if you are into that sort of thing.

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:43 pm

Hi Rick!

Yes, Paul Long was an exceptional trainer of gun dogs of all different breeds and dispositions. Paul knew training from the inside out because he had timing down to an art and science in that he just knew exactly how to handle each different dog. Paul got his start in the dog training business when he was still in school, stopping off at Elias Vails kennel. He started at the bottom of the ladder, first tending to feeding and cleaning the kennels.

Elias Vail liked his dedication and hard working qualities so much that he took him under his wing and groomed him in the training department. Paul talked about George Ryman and his setters quite often, stating that he and Elias Vail would go down to the Ryman kennels and pick up a string of younger setters and take them to the Vail holdings to start them out on pheasant.

Back in 1990 Paul told me he was very sorry to see how badly the Ryman Setter line of gun dogs had ended up. Paul was one of those small good guys who had to work harder than most as he was hindered by Polio and only had use of one hand. Down in North Carolina where he operated his small training kennel next to his mobile home he was very familiar with what was going on, stated that nobody bought dogs in that area, instead, they all bartered and traded between one another.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:54 am

Mr. Ruff, Ken started getting dogs from Carl and Ellen in the late sixty's and the early seventy's. He was helping them breed dogs. He had his stock before the kennel was sold. He also was helping Summers with the breeding of dogs till things fell apart........Scott

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:18 pm

Hello Scott,

I will agree with you in part as it is very evident that you are basing your opinion on what has been made available by those who are involved in the inner circle, individuals who promote these dogs as being something that is very rare and hard to come by unless you have the money to seal the deal. They have to spend thousands of dollars in promoting these dogs in order to make the sales they need to make to keep their kennel operation alive.

You always hear about the things they want you to know, things like Carl and Ellen said this or that and it is truly amazing to see how many people buy into it. It is also very strange to note that the most important piece of genetics of all this information has been hidden away in time just like a good book in a library that was taken to the basement and overlooked for years.

The information I put stock in comes from facts aquired over the years, comes from the hidden genetics that nobody wanted the interested public to know about. For instance, do you know how old George Ryman was when he married Ellen? Do you know how old Ellen was at the time? Do you know about Carl Calkins and what happened when George Ryman took his string of setters to his hunting and fishing camp in Quebec, Canada for weeks of training? Do you know anything about what happened to George Ryman's shotgun that Carl and Ellen claimed to have been stolen?

Now, I have a question for you and hope you have an answer. Have you ever heard of "bleep" Weaver who lives in Chambersburg, PA.? If so, would appreciate any information that came to you through the inner circle as I would be most interested. By the way, nice looking setters!

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:22 pm

Looks like I inadvertantly got a "bleep" in the post above, took me a bit to figure out what was going on there. I used the shortened name for "Richard" - Richard Weaver, only he's mostly know by the shortened name that starts with a "d" and ends with a "k".

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:49 pm

Mr. Ruff, Thank You for the compliment on the setters. I have one more pic I need to add yet. Molly is over 6 months now and she is a blue belton. Each of her grandparents have a line back to Roam,and if you know your pedigrees you know who that leads back to. George was 49 and Ellen was 27. I do not have answers to your other questions and I am not for sure I am following you.
As far checking with the inner circle for info on this gentleman, I will do that and get back to you.....................Scott

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:53 am

Well, if any of you wants one of his dog's, he's fairly fussy on who he sells them to. A few years ago I was shopping for a new setter to replace my aging setters (ended up with a Draht instead) and contacted Mr. Alexander. I really liked the smaller, faster setters like from Hytest, or Grouse Ridge, but his adds (Alexanders) fascinated me. I contacted him and told him that I was once a trainer and the type of program I used. He sent back a letter with very few words: "I am not interested in selling you a dog". Pretty rude I thought.

In all fairness to the man, those that have dogs from him and know him praise the heck out of him. Other people I knew also thought him to be rude. I think he wants his dog to only go to people that train with virtually no pressure, and perhaps, his dogs will tolerate no pressure.

Anyhow, if you contact him, and if you run your dogs with an ecollar on, don't tell him. There is also a gorgeous line of setters from Island Park, Idaho that people seem to like. They remind me of the DeCoverly dogs, but I don't know much about them.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:31 am

I have seen a few as I'm not too far from them. I don't think any pup is worth the money he charges when their is no testing or trialing of the parents, seems like you paying for a name, but that's just my opinion. The dogs are defiantly slower closer working dogs but if that's what your looking for and you have the funds the people I have talked to are happy with theirs.

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:12 pm

Hello Bird Dog Desire,

Thanks for giving the info on Harley Jackson and the show he did for the DeCoverly holdings, had my son look into it for me and send me to the site about it. After seeing the film, must admit, I was not impressed. When it takes four shots to bring down a single woodcock at close range, I'm not impressed. My wife is now 73 yrs. of age and she can still shoot better than that. In her younger days it was not uncommon for her to shoot doubles on grouse and woodcock from time to time with consistency. Your Llewellin really looks like a very stylish setter, really like the picture on your page.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:24 pm

Pardon me but what does the fact of how good a shot you are have to do with the quality of a film? I just get concerned when someone tries to bring up every negative thing they can to down play something, particularly when they aren't here to defend themselves. I think it is wise to stay away from these type of discussions on a public board when there is no way anybody can prove the validity of the statements.

Ezzy

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:27 pm

I think you are confused here, didn't mention I was a good shot, rather, mentioned my wife's shooting abilities. As for this forum, this is what it's for, you know, advise and opinion in which everyone is entitled to do, after all, this was made possible by our nation's founding fathers. The statements I made were based on actual facts, facts that come from the many individuals who know exactly what has transpired.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:52 am

RoundRiver Setters wrote:Mr. Ruff, Thank You for the compliment on the setters. I do not have answers to your other questions and I am not for sure I am following you.

Scott~I think he's trying to say in a round about way that "he's been there, done that." Not just heard about it from someone else. From what it sounds like to me is that Mr. Ruff has a whole lot of knowledge and A LOT of it came from personal experience.

I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but info from an old timer who was around back then is invaluable, especially when he wasn't involved in selling or promoting those dogs.

JMO
Doug

fuess · Post by **fuess** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:42 am

Good morning to all,

I always follow the threads concerning "duel" dogs, because I own them (gordon setters). I am always of the opinion, value them for what they are, and not what they are not. In most duel dogs that I know of, they will have the lower tail set, not quite as fast, slightly larger.....

If this is not what you are looking for, there are hundreds of other breeds, types to pick from. Having seen a few Decoverly dogs, I think you get what is advertised. A dog that will be heavily line bred, with very specific traits to expect. A bigger dog, that moves a little slower, that has a lot of natural point, and will not require alot of heavy handed training to get a fairly competant bird dog. Thats it, you know it going in.

Not a trial dog, but a foot hunting companion.

As far as price is concerned, free market dictates that, and I assume with the size of the operation, there are alot of people who feel that the kennel name, lineage, and dogs must be worth it.

We have the same issues in the Gordon world. I hear it all the time. Pick what you like, and do the best you can, and be proud of what you (and your dog) have accomplished!

All the best,

Fuess

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:43 am

I cannot fault a breeding operation because they had an opportunity to be on tv or in any other form of media...or they know how to advertise themselves. After all, it's an opportunity and I assume like most folks, they'd like to make a dollar too. Obviously in doing so, they put themselves out there and incur the risk of criticism, either from how they projected themselves or from the spin the show put on it. However, a persons shooting skills on a given day are pretty irrelevant to the quality of a breeding program or the topic at hand. If our poor dogs were judged by how we shoot on any given day.....what a pity that would be.

When it comes to the dollar amount for a pup, if the buyers are happy--then who am I to say it's wrong? It is no different than the purchasing choices folks make in all facets of their lives, from cars to homes.

While I truly appreciate accurate history and it's relevance, if I were buying a pup, I'd give more credence to the present and if folks are satisfied with their purchased dog. In the end, that is what truly counts to me. Has the dog met their performance needs? Are there any health issues? The best information to be had in regards to the current kennel operation and its progeny, is to locate owners with offspring there of. They will be your best consumer report. Google the current DeCoverly sires/dams to find owners of offspring, and ask them outright. A proud and honest breeder, should be more than willing to point you in that direction as well. Just my two cents. Denise

Mr.Ruff · Post by **Mr.Ruff** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:42 am

Your post was most appreciated, enjoyed reading your opinion in this forum but don't know why you would suggest not telling Ken Alexander about using a shock collar if a person wanted one of his dogs? My son came over and helped me locate the promotional film Harley Jackson did for the DeCoverly holdings and the setters they used to hunt over were both wearing "Beeper Collars" and "Shock Collars". As a matter of fact, in case you didn't notice, go to these links and look.

http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09036/decoverlyshock01380.jpg

http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09036/decoverlyshock02117.jpg

http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09036/decoverlyshock03578.jpg

http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09036/decoverlyshock04172.jpg

http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09036/decoverlyshock05526.jpg

Now, I would also like to know why the Moderator of this site does not wish to have anyone come to this forum and speak the truth about certain subject matter? I followed the rules set by this site and didn't know speaking the truth about material that is made public domain is a violation of our God given rights under the Constitution of the United States of America.

I served 28 years in the United States Army, retired a Colonel and since it is very clear to me what is going on here, I will not do any further posting on a site that is involved in a manipulation to cover up the truth that is based on actual facts. I have no ill feelings towards Ken Alexander, never met the man, however, I do know about his setters, know many who have owned them. To be blunt, his offerings are nothing like that which George Ryman offered and never will be. George Ryman is gone, Ken will never be the master breeder George was.

Anyone who knows anything about breeding gun dogs will tell you, you can't breed and have pups on a year round basis if you truly hunt your sire's and dam's during the season. Makes one wonder why a large kennel operation always has pups available, always has so many young year old dogs available all the time. Does anyone on this forum know where all these dogs end up? For those who are blind, go to the English Setter Rescue site and take a look.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:54 am

Mr.Ruff wrote:Now, I would also like to know why the Moderator of this site does not wish to have anyone come to this forum and speak the truth about certain subject matter? I followed the rules set by this site and didn't know speaking the truth about materiall that is made public domain is a violation of out God given rights under the Constitution of the United States of America..

I served 28 years in the United States Army, retired a Colonel and since it is very clear to me what is going on here, I will not do any further posting on a site that is involved in a manipulation to cover up the truth that is based on actual facts.

You are entitled to your opinions, but you have no constitutional or any other kind of right to post them here. This is a privately-owned message board. Everything posted here is subject to the review of the moderators. The moderators are the last and final arbiter of the rules of the site. If you do not like those rules or the application of them, you are welcome to post elsewhere.

And, while I'm at it, you and "Little Nell" posting from the same IP address is very, very suspicious.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:51 am

There is another setter breeder out there that is asking about the same price as a Decoverly.
That is very interesting that the IP addy is the same for Mr. Ruff and Liltle Nell.

Mr.Ruff wrote:Now, I have a question for you and hope you have an answer. Have you ever heard of "bleep" Weaver who lives in Chambersburg, PA.? If so, would appreciate any information that came to you through the inner circle as I would be most interested. By the way, nice looking setters!

I sent 1 PM on Sat morn and 1at 12:30 am Sun to Mr. Ruff telling him I have info for him on Mr. Weaver, but he would have to e-mail me at my personel e-mail address. I told him I wanted to know who I was talking to. He has not contacted me. I have noticed that all of his post has been on this setter thread. Maybe Mr. Ruff is a nice old guy with a lot of knowledge of what has went on in the past with Ryman dogs or is he somebody who is just trying to stir up trouble. :roll: ...........Scott