FEMALE 80% of Pups Sucess?

[gary]

I heard for the first time from a well respected breeder who stayed the course with field dogs while the Bench
Members dominated the rule books that he thought that a consistant trial winning female will influnance 80%
of pups success?

Pedigree's are good and many have untitled bitches in there backgrounds,but to have a titled female someone
has to do the work in order for dog will have a chance.
Most young dogs will display desire and hunt traits from the start and most good Dog People will notice
this and offer buy or train such a dog for the owner.
I find it hard to find a place or time to stop for a litter of puppies with Trial Majors to run almost 10 months a year.
Titled Females with FC sons and daughters should be the TRUE test of a female's worth.

Gary

[ymepointer]

Gary did you get Holly from a guy named Phil Letso? I met him at one of the weim nationals about 8 years ago. He gave me some homemade everlear that darn near nocked me out just from the fumes! if so he has some nice dogs.

[WildRose]

he thought that a consistant trial winning female will influnance 80%
of pups success?

I think the choice of dam has a great deal to do with how well any given mating is going to work out but I don't know how anyone could assert that the male's contribution is only 20%.

Each parent contributes half the possible genes that will go into the pups. How much from each actually ends up in the pups is not something statistically predictable.

This assertion doesn't make much sense to me. CR

[ezzy333]

I think he female can have more influence in ththe pups temperment possiblt since she is there to teach some of the early behavior. But the inherited qualities are split 50-50 since they have to recieve a gene from each parent to make up each item of inherited characteristics.

Ezzy

[ohiogsp]

Some maybe more like dad and some maybe more like mom but both contribute 50/50.

[big steve46]

I can't quote the discussion/research, but I believe the female does have over 50% control. The female egg has an enzymatic coating that allows only a certain sperm to penetrate. There are researches we have discussed on other forums that clearly indicate that the female may have a dominant role. I'm only a biologist, not a geneticist, but there is support for this, but I can't remember it.

[WildRose]

I think he female can have more influence in ththe pups temperment possiblt since she is there to teach some of the early behavior. But the inherited qualities are split 50-50 since they have to recieve a gene from each parent to make up each item of inherited characteristics.

Ezzy

Actually that's not quite how it works. During Meiosis when the sperm and egg meet the nuclei of each diffuses and you have a random soup of chromosomes pairing up.

You don't actually have a 1:1 matching of male and female donations pairing up. It is quite possible for some to match up with the same donation from the same parent. Remember our chromosomes are pairs wrapped together, not a single strand. That is why in some cases you have pups much more similar in some respects to one parent or the other rather than an even "average" of all the traits of both parents.

This is why the only possible way to have identical twins is for them to each come from a single fertilized egg that split completely in order to form two completely separate zygotes.

You can have though twins so similar that they appear to be for all intents and purposes to be identical who will show on their DNA to be two distinctly separate individuals.

It's much more complicated than a 50/50 contribution from each. That is why there are no gurantees in any breeding. CR

here is a link to a basic tutorial that helps with understanding the process.

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/CELL_BIO ... page3.html

[PowerPoint]

Ive heard these theories for quite along time.Usually from old timers who were just dog men(none carried any titles)but I learned to belive them reguardless.Im so excited to see what my new born pups are going to be like.Their mom's hunt intstincts,are so strong when id let her out to use the bathroom(huge,and Pregnant) shed go straight to my pine trees that have birds in um always,and start pointing,her belly almost to the ground.It was halarious.She also was going back out there even the day she was having pups.I think that kind of instinct is invaluble when breeding.

[SFK]

During Meiosis when the sperm and egg meet the nuclei of each diffuses and you have a random soup of chromosomes pairing up.

Thought meiosis only occurs during the creation of gametes (sperm and egg) and not during fertilization. Meiosis during gamete creation does do things like crossing over and random assortment which will give gamete make up that will express characteristics unlike the parent. Still thought that each parent always donates half the chromosomes (in healthy zygotes) so you will always have n(sperm) + n(egg) = 2n(organism) so it is still 50% of the genetic material but not necessarily the coding that the parents have. Maybe I am wrong or misread Wildrose’s post.

[snips]

I think you definetly need a good bitch, but I could not count how many times I have seen a dog thats the carbon copy of their Sire. My Logan did not seem to throw dogs that really looked like him, but they were always consistantly talented dogs that were extremely trainable. I have always heard of prepotent males, not sure if there is anything to it. Have also heard they were very rare. I remember seeing dogs sired by Duke VD Wildburg, they all looked like carbon copys.

[ezzy333]

Snips,

That doesn't mean half of the genes don't come from the weaker dog but only that the sire with the strong genes dominated the females. Some males and females can do that.

Ezzy

[PowerPoint]

Thank goodness my genes over powered my exes when I got my daughter!!! hehe

[LarryLowell]

I'm not sure how the mixing of the genes all works, BUT as to prepotent males, our dog Neo is as perpotent as they come. He throws ALOt of himself into his get, and his daughters throw alot of him in their get.

When I mean alot of him I mean, Looks, temperment, high tail, Natural ability, and Trainability. Our Neo dog has thrown consistency in every litter hes produced, which is somewhere around 13-14 litters. 95% of all his get has gone into hunting homes, and I havent ever heard of any of his pups that werent birddogs.

As to females throwing more into the mix, I havent seen that in my kennel, not saying its doesnt happen, I just see the males throwing their fair share of genes into the mixing pool too, and in Neos case alittle bit more.

Larry Lowell

[WildRose]

During Meiosis when the sperm and egg meet the nuclei of each diffuses and you have a random soup of chromosomes pairing up.

Thought meiosis only occurs during the creation of gametes (sperm and egg) and not during fertilization. Meiosis during gamete creation does do things like crossing over and random assortment which will give gamete make up that will express characteristics unlike the parent. Still thought that each parent always donates half the chromosomes (in healthy zygotes) so you will always have n(sperm) + n(egg) = 2n(organism) so it is still 50% of the genetic material but not necessarily the coding that the parents have. Maybe I am wrong or misread Wildrose’s post.

Nope not quite. Each parent contributes half of the genetic soup. But once it's in soup form imagine that each gene is a different colored magnet for each parent. Half of Mom's magnets are pos, half of dads are pos, half of mom's are neg, half of dad's are neg.

Put this soup in a blender and let it settle. Those magnets will settle randomly and mate with their nearest oppositely charged magnet. The end result will be a mish mash of colored pairs, they will not each half one pos/one neg paired up from each parent. Some will be doubled on the mom, some will be doubled on the dad.

After Meiosis one you end up with 2n (twice the normal pairs) after meiosis two, the reduction phase has occured and you get back to 1n (normal).

All of this of course doesn't include mutations which occur at a very high rate, but most of which are so detrimental to success the zygote never makes it to being an implanted embryo, many that do implant will not survive the first trimester.

To end up with a litter of eight that litter might very well have started out with over a hundred fertilized eggs, only half of which made it to implantation, and only a handful made it past the first trimester.CR

There definitely is something to the theory of prepotent sires, and "blue hen Dams". Some males seem to be very consistent no matter how many times they are bred or to how many females.

Some females again seem to throw very similar pups to themselves no matter whom they are bred to.

[RGT]

I, too, have heard that females tend to throw more genes than the males on your typical litter, of course there are exceptions. But the percentage I heard was 60%, which lends to the belief of always looking a little closer at the females ped. Again, this is all heresay, so take it for what it's worth. As for exceptions, my female, Melo, resembles her father very much who is a large solid black male, but has the ground speed of her mother, which I'm yet to see any dog come close to.

[Neil Mace]

Until scientifically proven wrong I will continue to believe that genetically it is 50 - 50.

And since we usually pull the pups from mom at 6 weeks, I am not sure what long lasting effect she might have in socialization.

On the pups I keep, I have been allowing mom to introduce the pups to birds. First time it happened by accident, I let mom and three pups out with 3 or 4 birds still in the bird field near their exercise pen. Mom took the pups hunting, made them stay in line or they got bowled over, made them back, and then let them chase. It was fun to watch, and now I do it with all my pups.

In all my dog training books I can think of no trainer that does it, wonder why not? We know in the wild mom teaches them to hunt.

Neil

[ymepointer]

Wow that seems like a great idea, Neil, do you handle mom on the birds or just let her and the pups handle their business? Do the pups bump and chase or does mom put the birds up? I think this is really interesting.

[ohiogsp]

Until scientifically proven wrong I will continue to believe that genetically it is 50 - 50.

And since we usually pull the pups from mom at 6 weeks, I am not sure what long lasting effect she might have in socialization.

On the pups I keep, I have been allowing mom to introduce the pups to birds. First time it happened by accident, I let mom and three pups out with 3 or 4 birds still in the bird field near their exercise pen. Mom took the pups hunting, made them stay in line or they got bowled over, made them back, and then let them chase. It was fun to watch, and now I do it with all my pups.

In all my dog training books I can think of no trainer that does it, wonder why not? We know in the wild mom teaches them to hunt.

Neil

My great grandfather always started his pups with the mother in the field also.

[ezzy333]

I had one female that was great for starting pups with but since then I haven't come up with one that will keep the pups in line.

Ezzy

[zzweims]

In all my dog training books I can think of no trainer that does it, wonder why not? We know in the wild mom teaches them to hunt.

Neil

My pups first bird encounters have always been with their mother in tow. When they are a little older, 7-8 weeks, I take them out with my old grandma dog. She is very patient, but one tiny lip quiver will make those pups slam on the brakes. My dogs are well known as 'natural backers,' but in reality, they are all taught to back by their dams before they leave my house. I have a video of 8 week old pups backing my stud dog. If I can figure out how, I'll post it.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[bntsetter]

Until scientifically proven wrong I will continue to believe that genetically it is 50 - 50.

And since we usually pull the pups from mom at 6 weeks, I am not sure what long lasting effect she might have in socialization.

On the pups I keep, I have been allowing mom to introduce the pups to birds. First time it happened by accident, I let mom and three pups out with 3 or 4 birds still in the bird field near their exercise pen. Mom took the pups hunting, made them stay in line or they got bowled over, made them back, and then let them chase. It was fun to watch, and now I do it with all my pups.

In all my dog training books I can think of no trainer that does it, wonder why not? We know in the wild mom teaches them to hunt.

Neil

Neil,
While the major genetic component should be around 50-50 split there are situations when this is not true. Simplest examples are when things do not segregate correctly. Additionally the mitocondrial compontent in entirely mother derived as sperm do not contain mitocondria. And while this does not add much to the overall genetic amount it may be important as these are the "energy centers" of the cell. As to proponent sires and dams. There are also expression components to every gene and depending on the promotor regions can be differentially expressed so as to display characteristics from either sire or dam....

Keith

[SFK]

After Meiosis one you end up with 2n (twice the normal pairs) after meiosis two, the reduction phase has occured and you get back to 1n (normal)

Typically n has nothing to due with pairs - it’s a count of the number of chromosomes. So somatic cells (normal cell) would be 2n (46 chromosomes in humans and 78 in dogs) and after meiosis the gametes (sperm and egg) would be n (23 chromosomes in humans and 39 in dogs). Guess if you’re counting pairs you could call a normal cell n pairs but it gets confusing because after meiosis phase I and II as there are no pairs after the process. Best to stick to counting actual chromosomes and n is the number of chromosomes in the sperm or egg and 2n is a somatic cell (normal). Although I hate links here is one that has a nice pic that labels n and 2n at the various cell stages:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio104/meiosis.htm

Any way you look at it half of the genetic material comes from the male, half from the female. The mitochondrion coming from the mother is true and a very interesting point. I will agree that there are proponent dogs out there. I would also agree the more time spent with mom the more the pups can learn from her.

Wildrose,

Not to get this too far off the topic but the point you made about meiosis after fertilization has me very curious. As far as I understand in meiosis you start with one cell (2n) and end up with 4 cells with n chromosomes which is what you need for a sperm or egg. While not specializing in embryology or fertilization, I really do not remember learning meiosis occurring at fertilization. Could you point me in a direction where I could learn more about this as haven’t had any luck finding any information on it. The way my math is adding up it just can’t work because at fertilization you have a 2n cell that needs to duplicate under mitosis (creates a duplicate 2n cell) so the organism can grow and not meiosis (creates 4 n cells) which would yield an incorrect number of chromosomes for the organism. Is there something I am missing here?

[WildRose]

During Meiosis when the sperm and egg meet the nuclei of each diffuses and you have a random soup of chromosomes pairing up.

Thought meiosis only occurs during the creation of gametes (sperm and egg) and not during fertilization. Meiosis during gamete creation does do things like crossing over and random assortment which will give gamete make up that will express characteristics unlike the parent. Still thought that each parent always donates half the chromosomes (in healthy zygotes) so you will always have n(sperm) + n(egg) = 2n(organism) so it is still 50% of the genetic material but not necessarily the coding that the parents have. Maybe I am wrong or misread Wildrose’s post.

Nope not quite. Each parent contributes half of the genetic soup. But once it's in soup form imagine that each gene is a different colored magnet for each parent. Half of Mom's magnets are pos, half of dads are pos, half of mom's are neg, half of dad's are neg.

Put this soup in a blender and let it settle. Those magnets will settle randomly and mate with their nearest oppositely charged magnet. The end result will be a mish mash of colored pairs, they will not each half one pos/one neg paired up from each parent. Some will be doubled on the mom, some will be doubled on the dad.

After Meiosis one you end up with 2n (twice the normal pairs) after meiosis two, the reduction phase has occured and you get back to 1n (normal).

All of this of course doesn't include mutations which occur at a very high rate, but most of which are so detrimental to success the zygote never makes it to being an implanted embryo, many that do implant will not survive the first trimester.

To end up with a litter of eight that litter might very well have started out with over a hundred fertilized eggs, only half of which made it to implantation, and only a handful made it past the first trimester.CR

There definitely is something to the theory of prepotent sires, and "blue hen Dams". Some males seem to be very consistent no matter how many times they are bred or to how many females.

Some females again seem to throw very similar pups to themselves no matter whom they are bred to.

My textbooks as well as my class and lab notes are burined somewhere in a storage vault. I did some looking online though.

This is fairly simplistic, but then this isn't an embryology class HA! CR


http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/embryolo ... fault.html

[SFK]

Your link says mitosis (or mitotic division) happens after fertilization not meiosis.

Extending over 24 hours, fertilization is the sequence of events from the initial contact between the sperm and oocyte, to the joining of the male and female chromosomes on the metaphase plate at the first mitotic division to form a zygote. As a result, a diploid cell is formed with a new genotype and its genetic sex determined, stimulated to undergo mitosis.

[WildRose]

Your link says mitosis (or mitotic division) happens after fertilization not meiosis.

Extending over 24 hours, fertilization is the sequence of events from the initial contact between the sperm and oocyte, to the joining of the male and female chromosomes on the metaphase plate at the first mitotic division to form a zygote. As a result, a diploid cell is formed with a new genotype and its genetic sex determined, stimulated to undergo mitosis.

You need to read further. Click on the link for “normal development”. Scroll down and look at th paragraph labeled Key:

B. Corona radiate has disappeared. Sperm has entered, Secondary meiotic division completed.

C. Male pronucleus enlarges; both pronuclear membranes breakdown.

D. Maternal and paternal chromosomes line up for first mitotic division to form a zygote with 46 chromosomes (2n)

I won't say I can't be off in terminology it has been 20 years since my last embryology class. But after fertilization during the first two divisions we go from a cell with twice the normal number of chromosomes (2n) back to one with the normal (1n) number. CR

[Neil Mace]

And when you get through, except in an anomaly,it is 50 - 50.

No accredited genetist has ever stated otherwise, that I can find.

Neil

[ezzy333]

And this brings us back to what all of us has always been taught with out all of the techinal language explaining how it happens.

Ezzy

[SFK]

I apologize for the delay in posting. I’ve been swamped.

Ezzy – sorry for the technical jargon but the folk who know me on this board know that genetics, especially canine, is what I guess you could call one of my interests. When talking about things as complicated as genetics the jargon can be important and sometimes the only way you can express an idea. You and Neil are correct as I have said a couple times in this thread – 50% genetic material from mom, 50% genetic material from dad.

For those who are curious, after some thought, talking with a few people, and then reading his link in depth I think I have figured out where Wildrose and I have been missing each other. I believe Wildrose is thinking about Oogenesis (correct me if I am wrong), which is the process of using meiosis to create an egg (meiosis is used to create sperm also). The final stage of egg creation is activated by the sperm entering the egg. The process starts in the ovary and for simplicity we usually say it ends there too. The only involvement that sperm and its genetic material has in this process is the activation. Essentially the egg is really not an egg until a sperm enters it. Once a sperm enters the egg, the final stage is triggered to take the chromosomes down to n chromosomes (the sperm already is at n chromosomes as it underwent the process during its creation) at which time we can truly call it an egg. At that point the sperm (n chromosomes) and newly formed egg (n chromosomes) combine to make a new cell (zygote – 2n chromosomes). Mitosis is the process used by the zygote and embryo to grow not meiosis.

Your link says mitosis (or mitotic division) happens after fertilization not meiosis.

Extending over 24 hours, fertilization is the sequence of events from the initial contact between the sperm and oocyte, to the joining of the male and female chromosomes on the metaphase plate at the first mitotic division to form a zygote. As a result, a diploid cell is formed with a new genotype and its genetic sex determined, stimulated to undergo mitosis.

You need to read further. Click on the link for “normal development”. Scroll down and look at th paragraph labeled Key:

B. Corona radiate has disappeared. Sperm has entered, Secondary meiotic division completed.

C. Male pronucleus enlarges; both pronuclear membranes breakdown.

D. Maternal and paternal chromosomes line up for first mitotic division to form a zygote with 46 chromosomes (2n)

I won't say I can't be off in terminology it has been 20 years since my last embryology class. But after fertilization during the first two divisions we go from a cell with twice the normal number of chromosomes (2n) back to one with the normal (1n) number. CR

A “normal” human or dog cell has 2n chromosomes (half from mom, half from dad – just as part D in your quote says – 46 for humans). Refer to my previous link also. Maybe you're confusing chromosome count of an egg in its various phases of Oogenesis (meiosis) in which at various points it is paused at different chromosome counts (part B in your quote is the completion of that process) and that of a somatic (normal) cell. Once the male and female genetic materials unite mitosis is how the cell multiplies. Look under cleavage in your link (Nice image there too). You can also refer back to my link which labels the chromosome count as a function of n for alteration of generations.

image from my earlier link http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio104/meiosis.htm :

[gary]

What Day into heat cycle would be best day to Mate?

What Day best for more Male Pups vrs Female Pups?(theory)

Gary

[WildRose]

SFK you are correct. I was wrongly mingling aspects of both gametogenisis and embryonic development together. No wonder it was confusing. Good thing though we got that deep into the discussion because it got me to do a lot of reviewing. The only thing I hate worse than not understanding something I'm interested and familiar with is when I am in error and misinform others.


Yes the 1/2 and 1/2 donations are indisputible. However that most certainly doesn't add up to a halving of the traits of each parent. If it were that simple then all the males would be roughly identical, and all the females would be roughly identical in each litter, and they would carry half the traits of each parent evenly.

What traits are going to show up in each offspring are going to vary considerably depending on each mating, because of how gametogenisis works, it makes it mathmatically impossible for the genetic information carried by each sperm or each egg to be exactly the same as all the others.

In laymens terms this is why you can DNA a whole litter and while a certain percentage of the markers used to identify each parent will be present in each offspring, none will carry all of the makers of each parent, nor both. CR

[WildRose]

What Day into heat cycle would be best day to Mate?

What Day best for more Male Pups vrs Female Pups?(theory)

Gary

At least in humans the most reliable way I know of to boost your chances of either male or female offspring is to pay very close attention to the PH of the vagina. There is a different ph level for each the XX and XY sperm at which the tails are more easily and quickly lost. If you have more XY's keeping their tails longer then you have more male offspring and the same for the XX increasing odds of female offspring.

It would take some digging though for me to come up with the details of each. I don't know of any research in canines along the same lines however.

We always breed over the course of several days every day without regard to such because the goal is to just make sure we get a solid hit on the "right days" for conception over all. CR

[Troy08er]

I found this,does this make sense.
Presents useful information on Motherlines


This article was originally written in the 1930s by Dr. Kleemann (by whom the German Kleemann Seiger or KS tests were developed and for whom they are named. It was first reprinted in the Kurzhaar Blatter in August of 1962 then subsequently translated into English and reprinted in the GSP News in 1963. Once again it has been reprinted here (after being edited for brevity) for your review.

What is the meaning of "Motherlines?" The idea is too often confused by breeders with "motherside" or the bottom side of a pedigree ... but Motherlines is the whole of the bloodlines of all the mothers, including the father's mother and the other mothers on the father's side of the pedigree - but always the mothers ...

[the success of Motherline breeding comes from utilizing very important sex-linked genes present only in the additional DNA of the X chromosomes of great producing (Stamm) females ... since a male dog has 76 paired chromosomes plus an X and a Y chromosome the only place a male can inherit these important sex-linked genes is through his mother ... therefore; when this son becomes a father only his resulting daughters (never his sons) get this valuable X chromosome back again (along with another X chromosome from their own mother) ... in turn, when these resulting grand-daughters become mothers the art of breeding lies in selecting only the male offspring that inherited this valuable X chromosome (as these great-grandsons will be able to pass the important sex-linked genes on to their get) ... in so doing we bring the influence of the Stamm female (through this valuable X chromosome) to the topside of the pedigree and dramatically improve our chance of producing great pups true to type when we breed to quality females from the same Stamm line ... thus the importance of having an unbroken Motherline on both sides of the pedigree]

Pedigrees only serve as a guide to show us what "blood" could be carried by certain animals. Only through careful study of a particular animal's offspring and intimate knowledge of its ancestors can we determine what "blood" an animal is actually carrying. It is necessary to breed both according to bloodlines and performance to achieve success. We are looking for animals who are outstanding performers within the same bloodline.

It is only by inbreeding that we can double up on the good and bad qualities so we can see what we are dealing with. When faults in the line come to the surface we can skim them off and get rid of them. By out-crossing we only cover up the faults and reduce our knowledge of what to expect in subsequent litters. Anyone who condemns inbreeding must in turn condemn the detective who brings crimes to light as well as the messenger who brings bad news.

A good broodbitch is feminine ... of finer build, a light and pretty head with a smaller and thinner neck, lots of nobility, but also depth for growing pups. You should be able to recognize a good broodbitch at 100 meters and not find it necessary to look between her hips to tell her sex. Often I have seen young bitches which looked like grown males receiving much attention and being considered as future outstanding broodbitches. These bitches never lived up to expectations.

And then there is Herta von der Maylust who was considered a "cat" at shows because of her fine build and light bone structure and was advised not to be bred because (it was thought) she would only produce poor small puppies. Yet Herta is a Stamm (original ancestor) mother behind many of our great dogs today.

If you have a bitch you must select a stud with complimentary motherlines. It is much simpler if you have a bitch from a great motherline so that you can profit from the long experience of breeders in that motherline and have little difficulty in choosing a good stud dog. With a little known motherline it is difficult to find the proper mate since there is but a small number of dogs to choose from. Look for a pup with a continuous motherline from known performers.

When sire and dame have the same motherlines you can generally count on outstanding pups and you will have classy breeding stock. To improve your motherline you must bring together matching bloodlines holding fast to the good qualities and abolishing the bad. You then breed for performance, boldness, conformation, nose and waterwork. The Shorthair must be able to hunt for hours without tiring, he must have an outstanding nose and never give up on the retrieve of wounded game regardless of the distance.

[BigShooter]

Gary,

From past readings as I understand it, eggs mature on different days of the bitch's cycle. That is why it is often a recommendation to have three ties, with a day off before each successive tie. Typically the perk timing is at about fourteen days, However we know the LH (luetinizing hormone) surge occurs just prior to the peak period for ovulation. Blood testing a few times to determine when the surge occurs is expensive. Typically within a couple of days after the surge the first tie is encouraged, followed by two additional ties.

The dogs know best. Males know when to come a callin'. That's why if you have a female in heat, males from around the countryside start visiting you and peeing on your front porch & other property. A female will not stand for a male until her eggs begin to be ready for fertilization, typically this occurs after about eleven days. Day one is counted as the first day of bleeding. However there are many examples of early & late breedings that have taken. I've heard of successful breeding occuring at up to 24 days. Generally I keep my females under lock and key for about three weeks.

[BigShooter]

P.S. Multiple eggs are produced by a female canine during ovulation and also because eggs mature on different days, breeders can use two or three different studs on successive days & there will often be pups from different sires in the litter. DNA testing can determine which of the pups match up to each sire.

[BigShooter]

That previous 1930 quote is based upon old knowledge. The characteristics we are most interested in are carried on the autosomal chromosomes not on the one pair of sex chromosomes as that old authored article suggests.

The 39 pairs of chromosomes in a canine include one chromosome from each parent. There are two basic types of chromosome pairs, one pair of sex chromosomes & 38 pairs of autosomal chromosomes. The sex chromosomes mainly determine the sex of the animal. The autosomal chromosomes determine body charateristics (height, weight, color, etc.). Both a male & female pup will have one X chromosome from each parent in each autosomal pair. In the one sex chromosome pair an X comes from the bitch & the other chromosome of the pair will be either an X or a Y chromosome contributed by the sire. A female has 39 XX pairs. A male has 38 XX pairs & one XY pair.

The X chromosome is substantially longer than a Y chromosome. Although each parent contributes one chromosome to every pair, an XX female pup will get two long sex chromosomes while an XY male pup will get a long X sex chromosome from the bitch & a shorter Y sex chromosome from the sire. The shorter Y chromosome contains less genetic material than an X chromosome does. Therefore a male pup receives less sex chromosome genetic material from the sire than a female pup does.

The female can contibute either one of its X chromosomes from its XX pair. On the other hand the male contributes either the only X sex chromosome it has to female pups or the one and only Y sex chromosome to each male pup.

I searched and found a site that explains the basics of genetics in an easy to understand way if anyone wants to do more brief reading on the subject. http://spear-barkennels.com/Genetics.php

It is believed by some that the egg plays a role in determining which sperm will penetrate its outer barrier. The last I knew, the exact mechanism by which a sperm is able to penetrate is unknown & the first swimmer to get there doesn't always win.

[V-John]

Hey SFK,

Don't apologize about the technical jargon.
I find it to be very interesting, and enjoyed your posts.
If folks want to complain about the "technical jargon" well, they simply don't have to read the posts.

Thanks for the post. You too Charlie.

[dan v]

At least in humans the most reliable way I know of to boost your chances of either male or female offspring is to pay very close attention to the PH of the vagina. There is a different ph level for each the XX and XY sperm at which the tails are more easily and quickly lost. If you have more XY's keeping their tails longer then you have more male offspring and the same for the XX increasing odds of female offspring.

It would take some digging though for me to come up with the details of each. I don't know of any research in canines along the same lines however.

We always breed over the course of several days every day without regard to such because the goal is to just make sure we get a solid hit on the "right days" for conception over all. CR

Long time Gordon Setter breeder told me something similar....but I can't recall if it was breed late for males, or breed late for females.

[BigShooter]

Nothing like starting up a two year old thread again.

The theory on humans was an acidic ph in the vagina was especially hard on the smaller, shorter lived male (Y) sperm. Once upon a time there were articles suggesting that women use an acidic douche just prior to intercourse if they desired to increase the chances of bearing a female. Conversely a higher ph was thought to enhance the possibility of male offspring. Men were encouraged to wear whitey tighties as high heat in the scrotum tends to reduce the sperm count and is especially hard on the male or "Y" sperm. Loose fitting underwear was thought to increase both the odds of actually conceiving due to higher sperm counts and bearing a male child. Lastly, timing intercourse close to peak ovulation was thought to increase the chances of the faster but shorter lived male sperm sucessfully fertilizing the egg.

I think most of the above ideas for improving the odds of getting one sex over the other didn't really pan out.

[Ruffshooter]

BigS: Why is the date always 5-21-06? Probably been answered on 5-22-06.
How would one know otherwise? Just wondering.
Rick

[BigShooter]

The date after your online ID is the date the post was made. The date underneath your signature & avatar at the right side of a post is always the date you joined, in your case 5/21/06. Am I not understanding your question or point or are you just messing with me?

[adogslife]

50% of genotype and an unequal distribution from grandparents .....
things can get mixed up pretty "good".

[Ruffshooter]

Mark, I am not messing with you. All the dates on mine say 5-21-06 Joined after my name after your name and you joined 5-21-06, a dogs life same thing.

Maybe I am missing something.

Rick

[BigShooter]

Rick,

You know you are just so special! Seriously though, my screen shows a different joined date for each poster. Send Grant a PM. He might get back to you in a month or so.

[Ruffshooter]

Mark:
You know, I heard that a lot in school,When I was younger, Then my wife ( I just thought she was biased) and now you. It must be so true. Oops, gotta go the guys in the white suits are coming.

Rick

[Troy08er]

Thanks BigShooter for the post.

That previous 1930 quote is based upon old knowledge. The characteristics we are most interested in are carried on the autosomal chromosomes not on the one pair of sex chromosomes as that old authored article suggests.

The 39 pairs of chromosomes in a canine include one chromosome from each parent. There are two basic types of chromosome pairs, one pair of sex chromosomes & 38 pairs of autosomal chromosomes. The sex chromosomes mainly determine the sex of the animal. The autosomal chromosomes determine body charateristics (height, weight, color, etc.). Both a male & female pup will have one X chromosome from each parent in each autosomal pair. In the one sex chromosome pair an X comes from the bitch & the other chromosome of the pair will be either an X or a Y chromosome contributed by the sire. A female has 39 XX pairs. A male has 38 XX pairs & one XY pair.

The X chromosome is substantially longer than a Y chromosome. Although each parent contributes one chromosome to every pair, an XX female pup will get two long sex chromosomes while an XY male pup will get a long X sex chromosome from the bitch & a shorter Y sex chromosome from the sire. The shorter Y chromosome contains less genetic material than an X chromosome does. Therefore a male pup receives less sex chromosome genetic material from the sire than a female pup does.

The female can contibute either one of its X chromosomes from its XX pair. On the other hand the male contributes either the only X sex chromosome it has to female pups or the one and only Y sex chromosome to each male pup.

I searched and found a site that explains the basics of genetics in an easy to understand way if anyone wants to do more brief reading on the subject. http://spear-barkennels.com/Genetics.php

It is believed by some that the egg plays a role in determining which sperm will penetrate its outer barrier. The last I knew, the exact mechanism by which a sperm is able to penetrate is unknown & the first swimmer to get there doesn't always win.

[scout_on_38s]

SFK AND CR glad you two got things ironed out, I teach biology and thought I was going to have to jump in. Essentially you have 50-50 from the parental generation. This is not difficult to see and understand. The next easy concept would be that each pup should get 25% of each grandparents genes, not so. The differences in the litter are determined by the combination of anywhere from 0% to 50% of each maternal and paternal grandparents' genetics being passed on to the offspring through the parent. The mix up of grandparent genes occurs through crossingover and independent assortment of chromosomes during meiosis allowing uneven amounts or grandparent genes to be passed on. Once fertilization occurs gene expression is a major factor in what triats are expressed. Some traits may be passed from parent to offspring but are hidden by dominant genes, this is where some of the discussion about prepotentcy (sp?) fits in. Just my .02... Hope it might help pull together some of the info here. --- Charlie

[BigShooter]

It'd be pretty difficult to straighten CR out as he left this forum over a year ago. The thread was originally started June 7, 2008. There have been a number of threads on this topic, however it always seems to generate interest among forum members and new information is always appreciated. The sorting of genes has been mentioned before and is an important component to consider when breeding. Some of our knowledgeable members have concluded that the more they know about genetics the more they tend to lean towards placing nearly all of their emphasis only on the qualities of the two dogs they are considering for breeding.

[scout_on_38s]

I noticed someone mentioning it was an old post but others were chiming in so I thought my .02 might benefit someone. Tracking heredity is very difficult with the number of genes, recombinations and mutations the variations are almost endless. --- Charlie

[BigShooter]

Thanks Charlie, additional info is generally well accepted.

[mcclinj]

Scout....totally agreeing with you, but wasn't the 25% grandparental ( F1 50% of parentals) theory an early genetic theory before modern genetics?

-John