Rock Acre Blackhawk

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:40 am

I am looking at some all age males to breed a female of mine to,and I was wondering about all the buzz about this male.I cant find any info or trial record for him.is he producing that well that when you merely mention his name a hush falls over the crowd,and just a pup goes for 1200 bucks?Im not seing alot of CH dogs sired by him.It just seems hes become larger than life like the Snakefoot phenomonon.Maybe Im just having a hard time locating what Im looking for to see what this stud is producing?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:28 am

Pick up any issue of the field and you will see a LOT of winners out of Blackhawk.

We have bred a number of females to him with mixed results. Some extraordinarily good...

...and some extraordiarily bad...

....roll the dice.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:41 am

I have looked i a couple fields.I just couldnt find anything hardly out there for all you hear about him.I think Im leaning toward Erin's Southern Pride,or Prairieland Pride,one of the studs from Cross Country.I havnt decided which one yet.Ive got a BIG running double grandaughter of Honky tonk attitude,with damascus,and millers silver bullit on the bottoms Im breeding,should get some dandys from a cross like that

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:56 am

A dog named "In The Shadow" will be getting a lot of attention soon I'm told. He is a White Powder son:

...and I also like Erin's Southern Pride which would give you Southern Justice and tie back into Go Boy in your female.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:10 pm

A little off subject but if your looking at some of Derrigs breeding, I would highly look at His bad River dog a product of a full brother x Sister breeding. Both his sire and dam are out of Southern Justice x Lacy J, she is an Additions go boy Female, or maybe Look at Tin Soldier as well. Just a thought.

Chip

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:47 pm

Erin Kennels is what I was thinking also. Sean Derrig has some really top dogs. www.erinkennels.com I like the looks the looks of Erin's Bad River and they show some pups out of a female that is Miller, Damascus and Fiddler sired by Bad River that look real nice.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:05 pm

Yeah-I look for that Bad river to do big things in his future.I like Souhtern Pride for his Additions go boy blood to match some of my females,and pride's day in the sun isnt over yet either,and his pups seem pretty easy to move which is HUGE to me as Im not able to keep pups to get started til I get moved from where Im at...

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:34 pm

Bad River I believe took RU CH at the pheasant futurity at 1 year old, he also competeed last year at the Ames, as a three year old and laid down an a powerful 3 hour race with 2 stop to flush and 1 n.p. but I think as they rode off they kicked up a bird where he was standing, he is the real deal, and no doubt about it he will win some big big trials.

JMO,
Chip

Singleshot · Post by **Singleshot** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:35 pm

I have been looking at some of Sean's dogs. Certainly nice and the Tin Soldier dog will definitely get your attention.

However, staying on topic about Blackhawk. I really like him and what he produces. I look in the field and a lot of times can pick out his pups due to the fact of how they are built. Good conformation, long legs, and good tails.
As with any dog or breeding, however, you can get bad traits also, as Ross showed in the tail pic and I have seen some bad bites also.

However, right now, I have one female bred to him and will be breeding another within the next month. I personally believe he gives the Elhews and Elhew crosses that little extra they need and produces solid pups. I believe if Wehle were still alive, he would be breeding to Blackhawk.

The Blackhawk/Elhew Katie Lee cross has been one of the best of recent time. Katie Lee was from the breeding of Snakefoot X Cliff's Elhew Ellie. Ellie was from the cross of proven producers, she was a proven producer, and she produced proven producers.

The two females I am breeding are out of 2X Nat CH Shadow's Attitude X Snake's Elhew Misty (littermate to Katie Lee) and the other one is Joe's Attitude (all age running full brother of Shadow's Attitude) X Cliff's Elhew Ellie! This cross has been known to be successful so I hope for some nice pups.

Anyways, Blackhawk is definitely worth a look. He has produced CHs, Derby CHs (including winningest Derby ever in Strut), and the field is always loaded down with dogs he has sired that are placing.

Best of luck with your breeding.

ADAM HART
www.singleshotkennels.com

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:31 am

Adam,

Turner just bought one of those 2 yo Blackhawk x Katie Lee females. That litter was incredible with the pups going for $5k and more. His girl is beautiful. He is breeding her to Sinbad and all of the pups are spoken for at $2k each. Then he is going to take her to Ben. I want one of those pups.

Your litters sound great. Let me know when they hit the ground.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:48 am

Westfall's Black Ice is a champion and r/u champion in both all-age and shooting dog stakes. He is from the noted Rock Acre Blackhawk/Elhew Katie Lee cross. His owner is near Kansas City,MO and his trainer is in southeast Kansas.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:11 am

Yawallac wrote:Pick up any issue of the field and you will see a LOT of winners out of Blackhawk.

I thought that last year this dog was a Derby? If that is so how is it that he is already siring CH dogs when they are mostly still to young?

Ross didnt you breed Sara to him when he was still a derby? Those pups are 6 months old

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:25 am

Casper you are thinking of Strut who was sired by Blackhawk.From what I understand Blackhawk is retired from trialing & standing at stud.Am I correct Ross?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:37 am

I thought that last year this dog was a Derby?

He was a derby for 6 or 7 years.

I'm not sure why but I thought Blackhawk was a shooting dog??? Tried searching for performance record but couldn't find it.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:03 pm

Ted,

You're rught. Blackhawk is retired at Sunny Hill Plantation in FL. I bred my Guard Rail daughter to him (top pic is one of those pups). Ch. Strut was the winningest AA Derby in American Field History last year. He started STRONG again this season winning a couple of Championships as a first year AA dog ...and then was bitten by a rattlesnake in FL so he missed most of the trial season. He came back after he recovered and looked good from the reports that I got.

Doug, yes Blackhawk was a Shooting Dog, but he is producing AA as well as Shooting Dogs.

Casper, I bred Sarah to Strut ....and Mtlee from this board has the nicest pup in that litter ...and he won't give him back!!

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:52 pm

With three crosses to Fiddler through his dam, I doubt that Wehle would be breeding to Blackhawk. "Fiddler blood was introduced through the maternal side and it looked good for awhile. It included dogs like Elhew Skipjack. But a genetic conformation flaw surfaced and all the blood was removed from the kennel to keep the gene pool clean." From Snakefoot -The Making of a Champion by Robert Wehle.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:01 pm

Wehle also wrote that Damascus should never have been bred...

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:43 pm

No disrespect to the late Mr Wehle but one of my best dogs is a Fiddler's Ace/Elhew Damascus cross. I saw Fiddlin' Rocky Boy and I B Fiddler and owned a daughter of I B Fiddler. I also had a dog out of a sister of Okies Cheap Trix, so I know and like this blood. I B Fiddler was an NBHA dog that Hoppy Hopson ran for awhile, "Dan" was one of if not the best looking dog on point that I have seen. It would be interesting to see what was coming out of Elhew kennels today were he still alive.

Singleshot · Post by **Singleshot** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:00 pm

I believe with the conformation and winning abilities that Blackhawk is producing, Wehle would definitely have looked back in that direction. Some of the Fiddler blood (i.e. Honky Tonk dogs) can be on the small side. I see and understand Wehle staying away from smaller males like Shadow's Attitude but with the cross like Blackhawk/Katie Lee producing so well, I just believe he would have looked in that direction. The Fiddler lines do have some genetic flaws. However, I would prefer to cross that up more with the right Elhews than I had linebreed on Dunn's Fearless Bud. I have done that and wont again.

The Elhew outcrosses were his best producers and I feel this would have been no different. Just my opinion.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:12 pm

Yawallac:

Love those 2 pictures you posted. LOL Doesn't that just tell it all? You do all your homework and your best but there are no promises.

Pointers_31 · Post by **Pointers_31** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:20 pm

I just posted a picture under "New Blackhawk Female". She is out of Blackhawk X Katie Lee. I didn't pay near what some of these people are paying for full brothers and sisters to her! That dog backing her in the picture is an elhew dog and they look night and day apart. Another thing that I've noticed with Blackhawk dogs, from the ones that I have seen is they all have identical shaped heads. His dogs really go away from the elhew looking "blocky" type of head, but man they are nice birddogs(most of them)!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:26 pm

His dogs really go away from the elhew looking "blocky" type of head...

You're not kidding!! I have seen some TINY heads out of Blackhawk! Because of that I bred a female with a very masculine head to him. It helped a lot!

Looked like your new female has had a litter??

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:35 pm

Yawallac wrote:Casper, I bred Sarah to Strut ....and Mtlee from this board has the nicest pup in that litter ...and he won't give him back!!

Haha, yep he's mine! I think I'd have to part with the shorthair before I let Gent go!

Pointers_31 · Post by **Pointers_31** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:09 pm

Yes she had a litter of pups back in March. I have a dog out of her from a litter that she had a year ago, and that's what really got me wanting to buy her. It just took a little time but it finally happened! How do you like your Strut dog? He looks like a nice dog in that picture.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:56 pm

Yawallac wrote:Wehle also wrote that Damascus should never have been bred...

IMO that was a marketing strategy.

Nice looking female Mitch.

Pointers_31 · Post by **Pointers_31** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:10 pm

Thanks Vagas!

I heard that Wehle couldn't decide between Snakefoot and Damascus as pups. He was forced to pick one because he promised to sell one of them, so he picked Snakefoot (obviously), and sold Damascus. Now I don't know if that's true, but that's what I was told. If that is true then I agree Vagas that is a terrific a marketing strategy, which I think Wehle wasn't too bad at anyhow!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:23 pm

IMO that was a marketing strategy.

Marketing strategy?!?! He sold the dog for $10k. Then when the dog started to produce winners and someone else started making a buck on him, he SLAMMED him in his book saying that Damascus could never get "right on his game" and ""he should never have been bred".

Sounds more like sour grapes to me.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:43 pm

Exactly, marketing! Marketing isn't only pimping your own stuff, it can also be down playing competition. Ask Obama, Clinton, McCain, etc..... That is marketing at it's finest.

Definition: Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

From this definition, Wehle was creating a value for his customers. Now whether he was right or not isn't the question. I have a granddaughter to Damascus and love her to death. But a lot of people took his word and he knew this. Another stud out there was breeding more then his. So he gave his customers "disvalue" of his "compititons" stud dog. He knew people would take his word for it. Marketing.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:48 pm

What happened to my thread?Its been Hijacked!!!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:49 pm

Sorry Powerpoint.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:59 pm

That is marketing at it's finest.

You may call that marketing ...not me. :roll:

But a lot of people took his word and he knew this.

Apparently not too many people, considering that Damascus is the number two all time Elhew producer.

You guys are blinded by your love.....

Powerpoint, I thought you already picked Explorer, your cover dog stud, that all the horseback guys will want pups from according to Elhewpointer.

BarkRidge · Post by **BarkRidge** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:19 pm

I am looking at some all age males to breed a female of mine to,and I was wondering about all the buzz about this male.I cant find any info or trial record for him.is he producing that well that when you merely mention his name a hush falls over the crowd,and just a pup goes for 1200 bucks?Im not seing alot of CH dogs sired by him.It just seems hes become larger than life like the Snakefoot phenomenon.Maybe Im just having a hard time locating what Im looking for to see what this stud is producing?

The person that can answer your questions, accurately, if that is important to you, is the breeder of that line. His name is Cecil Cole. He goes by Pee Wee. When I looked into his line that is who I talked with. His number is easy to find.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:59 pm

Just kidding! Some intresting info...

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:01 pm

Ross,

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said "all horseback guys". Instead of hiding behind a computer keyboard why don't you give me a call sometime. I'll pm you my number. I'd really like to talk to such a knowledgable person like yourself.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:18 pm

Is hiding behind a computer different than hiding behind a phone? Some how reading between the lines it just doesn't sound real sincere that you want to talk to someone knowledgeable if they don't agree with you. Lets get back to dogs.

Ezzy

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:43 pm

ezzy,

You are correct. I was being quite facetious in regard to talking with someone knowledgeable but not because he disagrees with me. But I do feel it is easier to hide behind a keyboard.

I believe Blackhawk is a nice producer. I've had a chance to see some of his offspring compete and do very well. Westfall's Black Ice is a dog that is in my area of the country and that is one heck of a bird dog and a very classy one at that. He did get a Ch. or Ru ch. at region 5 all-age. All the times i've seen him, he didn't seem like an all-age dog at all to me. I've also see Masterhawk. Also a nice going dog. Again a lot of bird dog in him but not quite the style as Black Ice. I have seen a few others that didn't blow me away.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:01 pm

ElhewPointer,

Sorry that I ruffled your feathers. Was kidding about all the horseback guys wanting cover dog bred pups. I thought that was pretty funny.

As far as "hiding behind a keyboard" goes. I am actually very active trialing, testing and running dogs. I'm out and about quite a bit. Hope to meet you some day.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:05 pm

Yawallac wrote:ElhewPointer,

As far as "hiding behind a keyboard" goes. I am actually very active trialing, testing and running dogs. I'm out and about quite a bit. Hope to meet you some day.

On the starting line or just in person ??

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:27 pm

Ross,
You do realize that Explorer was ran in all age stakes before getting his CH, right??????

I like the blackhawk dogs that I have seen, I don't like the heads on them, but they are bird dogs. I also like the looks of the few tri-colors that come through occasionally.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:49 pm

You do realize that Explorer was ran in all age stakes before getting his CH, right??????

Did he win a Championship as an AA?? I could run my NBHA Elhew bred dogs in AA too .... doesn't make them AA.

Gee wiz, nothing wrong with winning in the Grouse woods. My point is that if I was trying to breed a litter that was going to be marketable to horseback AA or Shooting Dog trialers I would look to a stud that won a Championship in that venue. This isn't rocket science and I'm not saying anything against Explorer....

I'm just saying that in MY NECK OF THE WOODS Elhew is not sought after by horseback trialers. Miller yes, Elhew no.

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:54 am

He ended up winning his CH in the woods, but he did have plenty of range to run AA.

Elhew dogs are hard to get into AA people's hands, but the shooting dog people are coming around seeing how most of the consistent winning is done by elhew dogs. I have talked to Swami's owner a couple of times, I think he has more confidence in his Elhews then others have in their dogs. Very few Elhews are going to to rebel on you, you can let them reach into some nasty stuff and know they are going to come out to look for you. I think that is why the Elhew dogs are being so successful at the level they are.

I wanted to breed to Explorer to get some run and some dogs you can be confident in. Explorer obviously matched his range to the terrain. An AA dog winning a woods CH, must have had a brain

I think the Blackhawk dogs have heads like Setters

, maybe I wasn't supposed to say that!!

Pointers_31 · Post by **Pointers_31** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:14 am

Are you breeding for good looking heads or results? I have a dog with a pro right now that probably has the ugliest looking head I've ever seen on a dog and she's 3/4 Elhew, and 1/4 Blackhawk, and she's going to be pretty darn good!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:31 am

I think the Blackhawk dogs have heads like Setters, maybe I wasn't supposed to say that!!

I never saw Explorer run so I don't know if he was a true AA or not, but I agree that if he could adjust from horseback to the woods that is saying a bunch. Heck, half my kennel is Elhew and my biggest running dog is a Phantom grand daughter so I have nothing against Elhew at all. I'm just making the same point as you, that most horseback guys don't think of Elhew as horseback dogs, that's all. (At least in these parts!!!!)

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:28 pm

I think the Blackhawk dogs have heads like Setters , maybe I wasn't supposed to say that!!

Haha, there it is!! Took 3 pages but I knew it'd show up!! Funny stuff!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:38 pm

Haha, there it is!! Took 3 pages but I knew it'd show up!! Funny stuff!

Haha, there it is!! Took 3 pages and YOU showed up!! Funny stuff!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:48 pm

I thought I dropped in some witty info awhile ago didn't I...dang it, I apologize if it took me three pages to offer my usual constructive input!!

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:07 pm

I wouldnt have dare said it til now...but.I heard Blackhawk was half dropper...Anyone else?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:11 pm

Doug,

Are you kidding!?!? I love Pointer obsessed GSP guys!!

You know I'm just playing!

12 Volt Man · Post by **12 Volt Man** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:13 pm

PowerPoint wrote:I wouldnt have dare said it til now...but.I heard Blackhawk was half dropper...Anyone else?

I have seen pictures of some tri-colored Pointer pups that were sired by Blackhawk. Could be "the old genetics from the original dogs used to create the breed" blah blah blah. Nah..... something is up there. Whatever they did it seems to have worked.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:23 pm

Yes, PowerPoint I have heard it. It is supposed to be through the sires dam.