Would the GWPs please stand up.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:01 am

Sounds like someone should have reconnoitered the area before initiating military action....

Greg J.

jhoughton · Post by **jhoughton** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:06 am

jbrown wrote:I am new here and did a search on the drahthaar and came across this post. Let me say I have owned labs,gsp,gwp and DD's. I live and hunt out west and all dogs serve a purpose. If I could only own one dog and hunted water fowl, upland, small and large game (where legal) it would be the DD. Snips, you said you would put your American bred FC wire hair up against a DD any day. I assume you are talking about field work? Because I would like to see that little white dog do a 45 minute duck search, track some rabbits,dispatch a 25 pound coon or fox, bay and catch a 300 pound hog and do a 3/4 mile blood track

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that "little white dog" and what he is capable of. The only thing he knows how to do is WIN!!!

wilsonwires · Post by **wilsonwires** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:55 am

I could not sit back and read this thread without giving my two cents worth. I have raised wires for 20 yrs. I have had both DD and GWP and I cannot see a whole lot of basic differences. They all go back to the original wires bred by the Germans in the 30's and 40's. Any wire can be trained to do what the handler wants - tracking, retrieving, trailing, but it takes a dog bred for running trials that is capable of doing it all.You can take a field trial dog and pull him in to do the close work but you cannot take a close working dog and push him out for competitive field trialing.I have used my GWP's for blood tracking,retieving on water and land(feathers or fur).The little white dog everyone is talking about came out of my kennel and I believe that with the trainer that he has he can compete with any DD wire.

Post by **grant** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:07 am

intothewind wrote:it must be the 4th of july because i have a sick feeling fireworks are about to start.....anyways, ive pulled up a chair and cracked open a beer, cigar anyone?

LOL!

Post by **grant** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:21 am

jbrown wrote:I am new here .... Snips, you said you would put your American bred FC wire hair up against a DD any day. I assume you are talking about field work? Because I would like to see that little white dog do a 45 minute duck search, track some rabbits,dispatch a 25 pound coon or fox, bay and catch a 300 pound hog and do a 3/4 mile blood track

WHOOPS! hahahaha Glad to have ya tho! I'm not sure about the 300 pound hog tho. Then again. They've got Fritz. He'll even fry the bacon and serve it to you.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:12 am

I can just see it.

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:19 am

Jbrown,

I would like to say that I too have owned a few different breeds including the GWP and DD. My first introduction to the DD was while visiting family in Germany. We were able to hunt pheasant and hare then go to another part of the country and hunt wild boar. I was very impressed with the dogs ability to switch from one task to the next with out missing a beat. One of the most impressive things was the level that the dogs were trained to. In Germany you have to have a dog trained to a specific level to be able to hunt at all, with most of the requirements being after the shot, tracking and retrieving. A few years later, after losing a GSP to old age and washing out a GWP due to temperament issues ( being way to soft) with the variety of hunting I do, I had my heart set on a DD. After getting a pup and training it for about 6 months I found out it developed a flaw that would exclude it from being breed eligible due to the strict standards of the VDD. I am interested in starting a breeding program some time down the road if I am lucky enough to have dogs that i determine are worthy of being bred, just because they can produce pups doesnt mean they should, I decided to go ahead and cut my losses. The dog went to a water fowl hunter in Maryland who had no interest in testing or breeding. He just wanted a dog to hunt. I heard back from him later in the year and he was very pleased, he said the dog retrieved every bird shot. I did some research and picked another pup from a very promising breeding, I put down my deposit and waited for the dogs to be bred. I have my second now and he is 9 1/2 months old and is awesome. He matured very early, his pointing instincts are great, he loves the water, huge prey drive and is a tracking fool. I ran him in the NAVHDA NA at 28 weeks of age with a 110 Prize 1, not bad for a hog dog.

I am force fetching him now and cant wait to get finished and get back to the fun stuff. We will run the JGHV tests this spring and fall. I would also like to say that I have 6 children with the youngest being two 8 year old girls. His temperament is great and he was well socialized. In my experience with the breed I have yet to see a aggressive dog. Not saying there are none, but it is something that is not tolerated. If the dogs are aggressive they are not breed able in the VDD. They are expected to hunt for anyone and with other dogs as well. Enough about me and mine. I just wanted to give you a little background before I responded to your post. For your first post you picked a bad way to introduce yourself. Its things like that that cause people to make a generalized assumption about people or organizations and we don't need that. The "smack" you referred to was in response to my post(I think). I took no offence to it, I know snips (Brenda) and her significant other. If she said it she believes it. They have probably trained more dogs that you have laid eyes on. Rick already has a wire that he put a UT on and I understand Brenda is going to run hers. I think that is great, use the dogs for what they were bred for, versatility. They have trained dogs for numerous friends and even family members. I would not hesitate to ask them for advice or assistance if I ran into a problem. I have seen her dog Amos and have had my hands on him. I can attest to the fact that he is not the little white 40 pound GWP that you see on occasion, he is "there". I also have a good friend that has a dog out of the same kennel and he looks very promising as well. The bottom line is if you do your homework and know what you are looking for, and pick a breeding from proven dogs there is a good chance you will get what you are looking for.

jbrown · Post by **jbrown** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:05 pm

Here is a little background on myself. I am a wild bird hunter ( not dizzied birds someone threw down 15 minutes before I got there) and I do a little waterfowl hunting. After going through 3 GWP from area kennels with 1 keeper and 2 not worth feeding I decided to try the DD. I went to some tests and saw the dogs preform and was impressed. I contacted a kennel breeding what they called Americanized DD's. While their dogs still had to pass the minimum testing standards to be bred in the club, they concentrate on the type of hunting we do here, upland and waterfowl. They are not worried about the blood tracking and fur work. I am not a member of the VDD nor do I test my dogs. I have no interest in playing dog games. I will leave all that to them and reap the benefits of it in getting a dog that meets my needs. I bought my dog, had it trained and AKC registered. Now I can do with it as I wish and breed it when ever and where ever I please.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:25 pm

Gee, wish this had been your first post as it sounds very much like what most people do. I will admit I nver check to see just how long a bird has been in the field but my dogs don't seem to care. Sure glad you found a dog that fulfils your desires as I think that is the ultimate dog any of us can have. Enjoy the forum and hope you can learn something while here.

Ezzy

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:29 pm

jbrown,

From your last post I know the kennel you got your DD from and am glad you are happy with it. Every year they want to petition the parent club to do away with the fur work (that will never happen). Why someone would want join a group and then try to get them to change their standards is beyond me. They want to take a dog that has been bred for over 100 years to meet certain requirements and "Americanize" it as they put it. I think that has already been done, its called the GWP. If that's what you want why not start with proven GWP lines and be years ahead of the game, or if you feel the need to test your dog , test in NAVHDA where they have no fur work or breeding requirements in their program?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:48 pm

For what it's worth, we would not have purchased a DD had it not been for the notoriety they have as blood trackers. It was the ability to track the wounded large game AND hunt birds, that led us to the breed. Otherwise we were pretty close to getting "blue lacey." I did try to convince the hubby to go with a DK as we are already very familiar with the GSP and I felt the tracking abilities would be just as good, but he did not want to go for it, for complicated reasons I'll not mention. AT any rate, the german system is one of the few that has a blood track (there are some independent for the tracking dogs I know) and it was easier to choose.

Gezer · Post by **Gezer** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:32 pm

Well I am the guy that Georgia Boy was talking about that got a GWP from Ron Wilson....His name is Von Gezer's Cornelius Brutus JH...He is a heck of a gundawg...I am currnetly getting him ready for NA in Sept and going to finish his SH this fall...he Bloodtracks, works water like a otter, Points like a statue, retrieves solid ...I have owned and trained hunting dogs since 1987...Brutus is the finest dog I have had the pleasure to own...he loves to please...ME...(PS he is a cousin to Snips Famous Amos, who I have seen work and have put hands on....he is AWESOME)...I also have a young DD pup, His name is Austin Vom Greenridge...he is the offspring of two very very awesome DD's....For his age he is maturing fast and is a super star in the making....Bloodtracks very very well, solid point from the time I got him, swims and would live in the water if I let him....He is a very special dog and I am blessed to own him....Bottom line is I did some homework and research with some folks I trust and used thier imput along with mine to choose breeders and dogs...Georgia Boys helped me immensley with Austin "Sarge" and I got lots of input from antoher firend of mine ("birddog Earl" in choosing Brutus....Earl got a dog from Wilson a long time ago that was one of his finest dogs (Ron has bred GWP's for a long time)) IMO you can find some very fine V-dawgs from both sides of the house. I have been impressed with the dedication I have seen in many GWP breeders and the Consisitancy I see in many DD breeders. I personally just want very good hunting dogs, and want to play some of the games that go along with owning a dog from thier perspective registary....IE...my GWP will test NAVHDA and AKC HT's...and my DD will test VDD and NAVHDA....I get to play all the games

....here is the real kicker...I also half own a GWP that has lots of very close DD blood.....she is heck on wheels....fastest dog for her age that I have ever seen....so figure out what your dogs jobs will be...research, talk to folk that have the same interst that you have that already have some dawgs and go from there...here are Brutus and Sarge

Austin Vom Greenridge....DD....aka "Sarge"

Von Gezer's Cornelius Brutus......GWP....Brutus

Opps forgot Von Gezers Highvoltage at Wildwire....GWP with lots of DD blood

Ok I might as well share my pic of Brenda's Famous Amos..GWP ....I really really like him

And last but not least Georgia Boys... DD....Dachs Vom Ritterburg....he is already a super star

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:14 am

Hey man! I did not know that was you. I am working some littermates to your dog I think. Who was the sire? I have them here from 2 different breedings, Larrys and Joeys.

Gezer · Post by **Gezer** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:47 pm

Brenda, I have Brutus...son of Bad Man Burley....Son of Backwoods Sure Shot Wilson....Brutus mother is Rimrocks Sassy Von Wilson....he is progressing very well....How are his littermates doing? How is Rick...have not seen you guys in a while...I am doing a NA test up north in Sept and will be helping Ross do the NA test for South Carolina NAVHDA chapter in Nov....you guys testing some dogs then....hope to see ya soon...Cheers Ron

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:16 pm

Got a very nice male in here out of that litter, and Larry just brought the female down this week. Exciting having a SC Chapter of NAVHDA. We need a water test down there.

LEGLIFTER · Post by **LEGLIFTER** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:53 pm

I just caught back up with this post. Thanks again for all the info. Special thanks to Geezer and others for the photos. I may have stated in other posts that I didn't care one bit what the dog looks like but my wife sure does! So these are invaluable to me in convincing her how nice these pups are. Anymore puppy pics?

MB · Post by MB » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:50 pm

LEGLIFTER wrote:I just caught back up with this post. Thanks again for all the info. Special thanks to Geezer and others for the photos. I may have stated in other posts that I didn't care one bit what the dog looks like but my wife sure does! So these are invaluable to me in convincing her how nice these pups are. Anymore puppy pics?

I can help out with a few puppy pics!

And here's a couple of recent ones.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:27 pm

Anyone remember these? 4 mo old Amos.

LEGLIFTER · Post by **LEGLIFTER** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:53 pm

Thanks all great pics. but the 2nd and last should do the trick.

Thanks.
Steve

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:06 pm

Welcome to the fraternity. I'm on my third GWP and wouldn't have anything else.

That said, wires, or any pointing breed for that matter, aren't for everybody, especially rookies. Because they're expected to point and not flush, depending on the level you want to take them (steady to shot?) you may have a lot of training time ahead of you.

Check me on this everyone, but a first-timer might be better off "dipping his toes" in the hunting water with a breed that requires a little less training commitment?

A Springer or Lab can be hunting effectively (and minimizing your frustration) once he learns "here."

Guys?

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:46 pm

I own two GWP's and I must say I love them. Here is my first one Jolee during training last month...

Here is my newest addition, Ivan, and he is turning out to be a firecracker. He is 4 months old. Had him out today and he was snapping points like crazy, loves the water, and has a great natural retrieve...

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:55 pm

What an adorable baby!!! I think I asked you before where he came from, but I could not find it

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:10 pm

He is from Reece Kennel...

http://www.reecekennels.com/

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:07 am

If you decide on a GWP, you must be prepared for
the Silly dog...

the Serious dog

and the very Serious dog

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:07 am

Gezer · Post by **Gezer** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:35 pm

Brenda, have you thought about doing UPT and UT with Amos.....I would love to see you guys run him ...ron

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:45 pm

Ron, right now I am focusing on the Nat'l. (oh, and we have a dog show entered this weekend:( ) I think the field is his forte' tho. So far the ducks are just for fun.

lovesuglydogs · Post by **lovesuglydogs** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:10 am

Im a DD owner (VDD Drahthaar).
Im Bill.

Im in love with the breed, the breeding requirements & the system itself.
Im absolutely sold.
Previous to this dog, ive worked with Setters & GSPs.
Ill never Not own a Drahthaar, as long as I hunt.
Despite what others tell you, maintaining strict standards FOR Breeding, is imo, a Necessity for any breed to flourish & to maintain its inherent traits. Has nothing to do with 'Doggie Games, but Breeding Data & Certs or "Quality Control."

Drahts are for my money, The Most Versatile, Stable, best Family & Protective Hunting dog Ive owned, that said, I like & enjoy other breeds also.

This particular line of dog is a little unique in that in addition to being VDD Certified, 3 generations are also UKC-HRC Retriver titled, excellent markers & handling.
Heres some photos from others Ive shared correspondence..one from Russia with Bear, one from Germany with Boar, one from Iceland retreiving a Seal & my mutt.
But that said, I really enjoy contrasting styles. My hunt buddy has 2 nice setters & another Brits, & they compliment each other well. Mine tends to do all the retrieving & cripple & dirty work! His look prettier.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Brenda, you've gotta finish the DC on your boy!! Then next year, in Illinois, he can also be entered in the All Star!

When are you going to make some GWP shirts???????
Fuzz

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:55 pm

Whats the All Star? Honestly, dropping him off with a show handler is going to be tuff. If stuff does not happen pretty quick I won't make it...

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:43 am

snips wrote:Whats the All Star? Honestly, dropping him off with a show handler is going to be tuff. If stuff does not happen pretty quick I won't make it...

Sounds like a serious case of separation anxiety...LOL. Maybe you should give it a try. If my two left feet can make it around the ring and put points on my dog then anyone can do it.

BTW, who is doing the handling?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:42 am

I think Brenda is talking about the logistics of making the connection....

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:02 am

Terrence is handling him. You do not know how much sweat one person can produce until you have seen me show a dog...Put a gun in my hand and it is easy sailing, but showing is horrible for me

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:04 am

You do not know how much sweat one person can produce until you have seen me show a dog...

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:49 am

The All Star is an event the club holds one evening during the Nationals open to only to DC's,CH/AFC, CH/MH's and CH/UT1 dogs. One winner is picked by 3 judges .... it's a showcase for our Field dogs. Lots of fun and our way of giving those owners their own night and a pat on the back! And it gives everyone a chance to really look at those dogs up close and personal. Winning has become a pretty big deal to everyone, and the members have been great with their support of the event. It's totally supported by donations, nothing from the club. We give a free dinner that night, winner gets a nice bronze Wire and everyone gets a huge rossette with the dogs name on it

I used to show all my own dogs, but have finally figured out I'm not that great at it. (I'm a better field handler, I think!) And I would rather be able to watch all of the dogs rather than be in the ring futzing around. Actually, though in Wires, owner/handlers do well. But with Terrence showing him, he should finish pretty easily.

JakeDD · Post by **JakeDD** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:48 pm

lovesuglydogs wrote:Drahts are for my money, The Most Versatile, Stable, best Family & Protective Hunting dog Ive owned, that said, I like & enjoy other breeds also.
...
But that said, I really enjoy contrasting styles. My hunt buddy has 2 nice setters & another Brits, & they compliment each other well. Mine tends to do all the retrieving & cripple & dirty work! His look prettier.

Welcome aboard, Bill. I know I've seen you on other sites too - this one is quite a bit tamer.

Good to see another DD guy here. Great pics. Is that boar pic a vom Teltowkanal dog?

lovesuglydogs · Post by **lovesuglydogs** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:45 pm

Sure is Jake, & nice to converse with other hunters & DD afficianados here.
I just started to compile some photos of DDs from around the world, & really enjoying the comraderie and viewing the pics.
Im putting together a collage of sorts and its coming together nicely..
When its complete, Ill let you know & post. The Iceland pics were a real hoot, retrieving Seals from the Sea.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:24 pm

Sounds great. What is it judged on?

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:14 pm

snips wrote:Sounds great. What is it judged on?

It's a dog show.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:41 pm

Debf · Post by **Debf** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:13 pm

snips wrote:Sounds great. What is it judged on?

It's a dog show.

Yes, it is a dog show.

The only dog show of AKC bench titled GWPs you'll ever be invited to participate in where every dog in the ring with your's has had to prove him/herself to the highest hunting performance level it's owner values and also proven it's confirmation in the AKC show ring.

For you, it would be an AFC/CH or DC title, for others a CH/MH or an CH/NAVHDA UT prize I - we're an oddity that we have a NAVHDA VC CH. I've attended a lot of dog shows the last several years, both as a participant and as as the chairman of our local GWP clubs' specialty and, this is the only one where I've looked at the dogs in the ring & uniformly, really liked what I saw. Muscular, intense dogs. None of them looked as though it had a layer of pudding under it's skin that would flop back & forth when they moved - these were lean, strong dogs. Working dogs.

We never won - never even came close but, I was always proud my boy was there with that group.

Deb

BTW
I don't know that I've ever said this but, thanks for inviting us Dual. I believe you played a big role in including the NAVHDA dogs and it was & is appreciated.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Sorry for the delay in answering... training, life, etc... just sometimes gets in the way of my internet time!

Yea, it's a dog show, but like Deb said, it's a one of a kind. Well, take that back, since we started it the Vizslas have joined in and the Gordon folks have asked us about it. The Vizslas now hold their own All Star at their National. Good for them! Brenda, I hate to see that sad smiley face in your email. DC's are pretty important in the pedigree of your boy, and we hope you will join us one day in celebrating your dogs DC title!

We would love to be able to make it more, have the dog in the show ring and somehow compete in the field as well in order to name a winner, but honestly we just haven't figured out how to make it work. And to be perfectly honest...I think I am getting too tired to try to figure it out! If any of our Wire folks have thoughts... and the energy????

I'm glad you enjoyed it Deb, I'm glad we had the opportunity to give GWP owners and breeders the opportunity to see your dog up close and personal! These are the dogs we need to really look at, to really consider for our future breeding programs.... dogs that can, and have, done both, and done it very well!

I know some will look down their nose, and that's just fine and dandy. I'm very grateful that the Wire world thinks highly of the Dual Champion and our Ch/UT dogs. This is what will keep our breed one breed, not one for the show ring, and one for the field. Good for us!

Fuzz

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:43 pm

I guess I am a little discouraged. The show did not go great last weekend. I guess his tail will be a pretty big issue:( Oh well. I may give it a go after the Natl's are over.

lovesuglydogs · Post by **lovesuglydogs** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:19 am

Fuzznut..
Heres a Kennel in England, winning Best in Breed in the show circuit, including CRUFTS, with their...(say it aint so Joe,) German Imported & tested Drahthaars.
Interesting story of their success & in not compromising integrity But still winning these exhibitions.

http://www.kimmax.co.uk/

'In only 16 years we have bred numerous Champions, with 16 titleholders both in the UK and overseas, including breed’s World Record Holder, a Sled Dog Champion & 5 UK Full Champions (Show Champions with field trial awards) we have 6 UK Field Trial award winners and 4 dogs with a Show Gundog Working Certificate - all of our own breeding.'

We have won Best of Breed at CRUFTS 3 times, in 1997, 1999 and 2004 with all the winning dogs owned by friends.'

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:17 pm

Brenda,

I dont know anything about show dogs, what is wrong with his tail?

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:05 pm

It is real up there. Terrence (handler) loved him, said he had a wonderful temperment, and he showed well. We will see, might try again later.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:17 pm

I was looking at that website and they had a Tri color pup on there. Is that allowed? I have seen 1 Tri GSP.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:29 am

Brenda, there are some judges who focus on tails and hate a high tail. When we are doing judges education we tell them, it's just a tail, don't get too hung up on where the dog carries it. Except if it's between their legs! A GWP shouldn't carry it pegged straight up off their back, nor curled over their back but if it's just "up there" shouldn't be that big a deal. But.....those kind of judges are just not going to look at the dog, so you have to figure out who not to show to.

No different then in the field trying to finish a dog that doesn't point with a 12:00 tail if you are only running under judges that refuse to look at anything without a 12:00 tail! These kind of judges (in both venues) are forgetting to look at the whole dog and focus on one aspect.

When I am showing a dog, it's because I like that dog and think it is a good one. Sure I get frustrated when I get beaten by something that can't walk, but you have to chalk it up to ????? and just go on. I won't show anything that is iffy anymore. So only you can decide if your boy should be shown or not.

Tri Colors... I saw one adult , it wasn't really obvious, but it was a tri. Have a photo of a Tri puppy from Australia. This color pattern is not in the GWP breed standard and I don't believe it's acceptable in the DD either. Doesn't mean they don't happen, but not what is wanted.
Fuzz

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:44 am

He always carries it straught up, really does not curl foreward tho.

dogirl · Post by **dogirl** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:58 am

Maybe the tail set wasn't such a big deal. Maybe the judge just liked the other dog(s) better. Did the judge make any comments?

Jolee has a low tail set, but some judges didn't mind that as much as poor rear angulation, etc.