New Garmin Astro Low-Profile Collar

[Dos Perros]

Like I said, let's ban all guns because someone might use one for ill purposes...

It wouldn't be hard to eliminate cheating, if that's a primary concern. All they'd have to do is write a simple piece of downloadable software. Or, the collard ID's could be reset at the beginning of each brace, so no one knows which of the ID's they're using. Or, for the price of $180 each, the host club supplies the collar portion, for which the ID is not known (and can be changed).

I've only been to one US Complete trial here in KS, but only one dog wore a tracking collar, and not a single dog was lost all weekend. What percentage of dogs go lost in the trials you're talking about?

[phermes1]

I think the product is superior and I think it will be adopted. What we're discussing is how to have our cake and eat it...how to use the superior product and limit cheating.

Greg J.

Agreed. I'm sure the main thing the AKC will look at is just how easy it is to cheat with one.

Who are we kidding - People are gonna cheat. I wouldn't consider it a rampant problem, but it certainly does happen. People have been caught cheating with trackers, they're certainly gonna be caught cheating with GPS units. The question that the AKC needs to answer is if the approval of a GPS collar will have a significant impact on the situation.
Personally, I don't think it will. Will it make many people initially not inclined to cheat suddenly decide that it's a great idea? I don't believe so. Maybe it' s just me, but I don't hear many stories about widespread tracking collar abuse, duplicate receivers hidden on course, etc. Maybe someone can tell me different - is tracking collar abuse an issue in your area?

As far as dogs getting lost a lot - it's not an issue in the majority of the trials I attend. We have one trial grounds in the Withlacoochee State Forest that dogs do tend to get lost in; lots of trees and just enough changes in elevation for a dog to get over a rise and disappear. I judged one stake there of 14 dogs and 4-6 were gone for much too long to remain in contention. Even then, they showed up by the end of the brace and were caught without trouble.

For the most part, though, the use of tracking collars is a safety issue more than anything. It's not because everybody has renegade dogs that get lost every other time they go out; it's because it MIGHT happen. A couple times a year tops, I might see or hear of someone having to pull out the tracker to find their dog.
Think of it like a concealed weapon - 95% of the time you don't need it, but in that other 5%, it comes in really freakin' handy .

[Greg Jennings]

Like I said, let's ban all guns because someone might use one for ill purposes...

Or maybe let's not let ordinary citizens have thermonuclear weapons because one or two bad actors might ruin a whole lot of people's day.

It wouldn't be hard to eliminate cheating, if that's a primary concern. All they'd have to do is write a simple piece of downloadable software. Or, the collard ID's could be reset at the beginning of each brace, so no one knows which of the ID's they're using. Or, for the price of $180 each, the host club supplies the collar portion, for which the ID is not known (and can be changed).

That's what we're discussing. How to use the product without creating a situation that is counter to the aims of field trialing.

I've only been to one US Complete trial here in KS, but only one dog wore a tracking collar, and not a single dog was lost all weekend. What percentage of dogs go lost in the trials you're talking about?

Crap happens: Dogs chase deer; bird watcher collars dog he finds "wandering loose"; dog takes off toward shots at trap range near cast off. Have seen all. The last happened to me. Bottom line: as mentioned, it's a preventative measure.

Greg J.

[vzkennels]

My dog Star was lost twice last yr when she decided to run AA in the GD stakes.The tracker found her standing birds both times.

[sjohnny]

I admittedly know next to nothing about field trials. How would knowing where your dog is be a way to cheat? Or would you be marking where the birds are and then leading the dog to them?

Thanks,
John

[Greg Jennings]

I admittedly know next to nothing about field trials. How would knowing where your dog is be a way to cheat? Or would you be marking where the birds are and then leading the dog to them?

John,
The scout would be able to know exactly where the dog is, which way the dog is moving, dog on limb find, etc., It would be a clear advantage.

[Devils Creek]

I am assuming that the new collar would be programmable for the older Astro units. If so I would buy one in a heartbeat for my year old model, should the collar receive AFTCA approval.

I am currently using the original model, with the low profile antenna (kept bustin the others), and I have it mounted on a collar with an ancient Sonic Sport beeper. I run both at the same time, but I gotta admit I run in real heavy cover on a lot of birds without a great deal of previous contact. Works super, and saved my dogs life for certain once last fall.

The weight of the Sonic keeps everything in place pretty good.

When I made my purchase I decided that I was only going to a couple of trials a year due to work pressure, but was hunting and training a bunch more than that, and I don't lose track of my trial dog on horseback very much due to the openness of the Saskatchewan prairies, and my current dog's desire to stay in touch.

So for me the the purchase was a no brainer. But if I could have both, that would be something.

[vzkennels]

John in simple terms if we always knew where the dog was the dog would more or less be handling us instead of us handling the dog.The dog is supposed to go with the handler not the other way around.

[sjohnny]

Thanks. That clears it up some.

John

[LarryLowell]

Like I said, let's ban all guns because someone might use one for ill purposes...

It wouldn't be hard to eliminate cheating, if that's a primary concern. All they'd have to do is write a simple piece of downloadable software. Or, the collard ID's could be reset at the beginning of each brace, so no one knows which of the ID's they're using. Or, for the price of $180 each, the host club supplies the collar portion, for which the ID is not known (and can be changed).

Or even better Yet, make both scouts carry a GSP collar either on their person or attached to the saddle of their horse, so then judges if they like can keep track of each dog and the scout at the same time ? If the scout is up front pushing the dog tell the handler their done.

These GSP units have a map program that will tell you where you are and where the dogs are. At the end of the brace open the map page and you could see where the dog and scout were at all times. This could actually stop cheating if used right.

Larry Lowell

[Rodger]

Perhaps another topic, but I thought trials are supposed to resemble hunting. Who while hunting sends a scout to find their dog? You guys worried about someone cheating with a GPS?? Might want to consider that some scouts heal, whoa and generally hack those dogs around that are out on a limb.

John in simple terms if we always knew where the dog was the dog would more or less be handling us instead of us handling the dog. The dog is supposed to go with the handler not the other way around.

Ted, The dog still needs to show on course. If a guy is having to ride half a mile away laterally or behind to gather up his dog then it’s not getting it done and should be dinged for it. What does it hurt to replace scouting with the option of using or not using a GPS during a stake? Everyone stays with a judge. Let the judge do his job to distinguish as to whether you are handling the dog or the other way around. If honest, most know what the problem with that is and it's that most rangy dogs would be out a contention without a scout to go out and gather em up and get em back to the front on course.

It's still about the dogs overall performance and shouldn't be about what happened out on a limb beyond the view of the judge. Scouts also ride past dogs that are buried up on point in cover. If given the opportunity, why not be more precise about what is being judged? Now I know I don’t have years of experience like several here do, but I do know that anyone can read these GPS devices which IMO would be huge in leveling the playing field. Not everyone has a buddy that is a good scout or feels comfortable asking a competitor to scout for them.

Now I expect to get hammered for the above, so fire away.

Rodger

[Greg Jennings]

Perhaps another topic, but I thought trials are supposed to resemble hunting. Who while hunting sends a scout to find their dog? You guys worried about someone cheating with a GPS?? Might want to consider that some scouts heal, whoa and generally hack those dogs around that are out on a limb.

Heck, Rodger, you know far better than I do that scouting is the biggest scam in field trialing.

I think the GPS units are going to be a disruptive technology. I posted above about someone suggesting *requiring* the dogs to wear the GPS collars and judges to use the GPS trackers to track the dogs. No need for scouts except as retrievers of dogs out of judgment. I just think it is too radical an idea to implement all at once.

Greg J.

[Rodger]

Heck, Rodger, you know far better than I do that scouting is the biggest scam in field trialing.

Yep, it's rampant. I'd even bet most judges when scouting have been know to skirt the rules a time or two. You know like when they've scouted to find that fiery young dog on point way up to the front on course and in between yelling point they're also quietly growling, whoa "bleep" it!

It's not always about the best dog or the dog that truly handles as it should, but it could be.

Just seems kinda ridiculous with the tools available today to have some one out riding all over h3ll's half acre searching for something that can be precisely found by simply looking in the palm of their hand. Try explaining scouting to a new comer looking at getting involved in trials and chances are they'll view it as a stacked deck.

Let handlers locate just as hunters do and in plain view of the judge and nothing more, and you'll start to see a whole other dog evolve. Just my 02.

Rodger

[huntindog]

Heck, Rodger, you know far better than I do that scouting is the biggest scam in field trialing.

Yep, it's rampant. I'd even bet most judges when scouting have been know to skirt the rules a time or two. You know like when they've scouted to find that fiery young dog on point way up to the front on course and in between yelling point they're also quietly growling, whoa "bleep" it!

It's not always about the best dog or the dog that truly handles as it should, but it could be.

Just seems kinda ridiculous with the tools available today to have some one out riding all over h3ll's half acre searching for something that can be precisely found by simply looking in the palm of their hand. Try explaining scouting to a new comer looking at getting involved in trials and chances are they'll view it as a stacked deck.

Let handlers locate just as hunters do and in plain view of the judge and nothing more, and you'll start to see a whole other dog evolve. Just my 02.

Rodger

I am in complete agreement !

Since we don't have horse's, Julie and I rarely do the scout thing. When we do, I gotta say we aren't very good at it.

Eliminating scouts and replacing them with GPS units to be used during the brace in full view of the judges would be a great thing. It ain't gonna happen, but it sure would change things up!

And, yes I have heard many stories about how Scouts can ssstttrrreeettttccchhh the rules.

That is probably where the famous field trial saying "You can't judge what you can't see" came from.

[AHGSP]

Were I on the AKC's review board and I wanted to see what folks thoughts of the technology were, the last dozen post or so is where I'd want to start. Good discussion and while rather idealistic, good thoughts on how the technology could even make the game better.

[Greg Jennings]

Got the low-down on high sensitivity GPS here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sensitivity_GPS .

As an aside, it gives you an idea of just how trick GPS is (and why it is so easy to jam).

Greg J.

[RCB]

What is the difference between sending your scout out to find your dog or picking up the GPS unit to find him? In the past the scout was the only way to find the animal when he was out of sight, but now there are better options. Also with a scout a whole lot of things can be happening outside of the judges view; however, the field trial game has a lot to do with tradition and that may override all technological advancements, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

As for practical use, a friend of mine has the old garmin and it has been really impressive. We were out one evening with some very young big running dogs in some new country and the unit makes your day a lot less stress free. As you know, the young ones are the ones that make your ride/walk all over the place but with the tracking ability of the GPS unit you are still in the game at all times. You know the dogs where abouts so no need to panic, etc if the dog has not shown for a while in big dangerous country. Really a great tool for training dogs and finding/understanding your big running dogs ground pattern.

[Rodger]

What is the difference between sending your scout out to find your dog or picking up the GPS unit to find him?

RCB, A GPS can actually find the dog every time , however it can’t influence or control the dog which is problem. If it were as simple as only needing to locate the dog and the collar was approved, then it’s a no brainer. Unfortunately that’s not today’s reality. Even with a scout many times the dog is lost. Remove the scout and many changes to most.

IMO if scouting were ever to be replaced by GPS units, initially it would be pretty ugly, lots of placements withheld and those that got around might not be all that impressive. Over time though, I think it would improve with the end result being better dogs, Dogs that truly do handle and are honest out on a limb. This would be significant. I’ve personally invested a lot resource in having a pro campaign my AA dog and have had a fair amount of success with the current format. Having said that, I’d like to see GPS adopted over scouting, as I believe it would lend more legitimacy to the results being handed down, by removing the question of what going on out of view of the judges.

the field trial game has a lot to do with tradition and that may override all technological advancements, and there is nothing wrong with that either

As for the tradition aspect, BS! I’d much prefer a more honest and accurate assessment of how good or bad a dog applied himself to the course.

The trial community at large should at least petition to update the rules to allow the scouts to handle verbally provided they’re mounted. Then we wouldn’t look so silly having to pretend otherwise.

I also like Larrry’s idea of having a GPS on the scout in order to scout the scout. That was good one.

At least others are discussing the merits of this which is a good start.

[mm]

It seems to me this could also help a foot guy in a horse stake. Things like this GPS could add a lot of people to the game. Tradition is nice but if you want to attract new people you need to bring things up to date a little. GPS and ATVs could be a big difference to people without horses.
mm

[phermes1]

With no sarcasm intended, I'm finding this conversation very thought-compelling. While I have to agree with Greg that full time use of GPS units is way too radical of an idea to implement all at once, and I really don't see it happening anytime soon, but the points brought up in favor of the idea aren't bad at all.

Personally, I love the idea of a GPS unit to scout the scout.

[RuttCrazed]

So has anyone pre-ordered on yet? Did they tell you when it might ship out? I am still trying to scrape some more pennies together!

Rut

[BlacknTan]

I ordered my upgrade collar as soon as I got the e-mail that they would be available.. There's a $50 rebate from Garmin if you owned the dc-20.. LCS told me the collar unit would be available around the end of July.

[Buford Boone]

As much as I like my Astro, I must admit that the new system appears to be better.

My main question, however, is "Have they fixed the software yet?" I complained about the unit loosing the "Dog Type" last fall. I was told that a fix was being worked on.

I've seen no fix yet.

Anybody have any info on the issue?

[Az Draht]

Since they are now offering the 2nd generation, I sure hope they don't skip providing a fix for the original unit. Although I suspect the will. I will buy a new unit for my second dog, but I don't want to replace my original one.

edited to add:

I just looked at the warranty. I think I will send my original unit back and hope they just send a dc-30 as a replacement.

[richmond_rod]

So has anyone pre-ordered on yet? Did they tell you when it might ship out? I am still trying to scrape some more pennies together!

Rut

I preordered one already , I went ahead and ordered a topo map card while I was at it , can't wait to play with my new toys ! Today I am waiting on the UPS guy to deliver my TT Field 90 G2 Exp , it's like Christmas in July !

[Rodger]

I'm going to hold off for now. I emailed LCS regarding the weight. I was seeing different numbers from LCS versus Garmin. The info from LCS suggest that Garmin may have missed a good opportunity to get the weight down enough to be considered for trials, disappointing if true. AKC requirement is less than 5oz.

My inquiry:

What it the actual scoop on this item with regards to collar size and weight? Your email to me indicated 4oz, but the Garmin site indicates 6.5oz without batteries. I’m interested in this item possibly being approved for field trialing and considering purchasing on, but this issue is paramount to me making a decision.

I need the accurate collar weight, both with and without batteries please

LCS Response:

The collar is rechargable we weighted it at 8.2oz....As far as we know it's not legal for field trials..Garmin gave us that information we believe that's with out the collar strap a bare unit..

Anyone know what Tri-tronics has in the works?

Rodger

[Greg Jennings]

Bummer about the weight.

Haven't head a peep about TT.

Greg J.

[Flush]

LCS Response:

The collar is rechargable we weighted it at 8.2oz....As far as we know it's not legal for field trials..Garmin gave us that information we believe that's with out the collar strap a bare unit..

From Garmin's website on the DC30:
4.1 oz (116 g) for transmitter and antenna
8.7 oz (246.6 g) total weight

Unfortunately It doesn't say where the batteries are included in that estimate. My understanding on the field trial rule is the 5 ounce limit do NOT include the collar itself.

From AKC's website:
"The transmitter, battery, antenna and screws placed on the dog shall weigh no more than five (5) ounces. The transmitter shall be mounted on a one-inch (or less ) wide collar. A regular ID plate may be affixed to the collar. The collar surface adjacent to the dog shall have no protrusions."

Case in point, the Tracker "Strike" collar is approved by AKC yet that system, with the collar, weighs 7.6 ounces.

Maybe the Garmin DC30 will meet the rules?

[phermes1]

According to AKC, this collar is not approved but they ARE starting the review process towards approval.

Based on the AKC's website, I don't see weight as being an issue with this collar. The transmitter and antenna weight quite a bit less than 5 ozs. Unless for some odd reason they're not including the battery, it should fit well within the weight limit. AKC might still not approve it, but it won't be because of weight.

[Az Draht]

My main question, however, is "Have they fixed the software yet?" I complained about the unit loosing the "Dog Type" last fall. I was told that a fix was being worked on.

I've seen no fix yet.

Anybody have any info on the issue?

Buford and everyone else see my thread title NEW Garmin ASTRO DC 20 SOFTWARE UPDATE