Gun Dog Forum

Just got this in the e-mail:

http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/New-Pro ... ollar.html

I think it will make the product much more acceptable. Don't know if it is light enough to be accepted by the field trial organizations and thus replace the radio direction tracking collars.

Greg J.

Greg, The email I received from LCS claims the collar unit weighs just 4oz. I checked the Wildlife Materials site and their AKC approved collar (Mod 3850) weighs 4.8 oz. Pretty sure Garmin had this in mind when they did the redesign. They also claim range has increased to 7 miles. If this info is correct, I can't imagine AKC or AFTCA not adopting this collar for FT use. IMO this new capability makes trackers obsolete. This is bad news for some tracker companies , but great news for hunters and trialers. I plan to order one.

Info on the Wildlife Materials collar.
http://wildlifematerials.com/dog/produc ... itters.php

AKC Approved collars.
http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/ ... ollars.cfm

Edited From AKC site.

The transmitter, battery, antenna and screws placed on the dog shall weigh no more than five (5) ounces. The transmitter shall be mounted on a one-inch (or less ) wide collar. A regular ID plate may be affixed to the collar. The collar surface adjacent to the dog shall have no protrusions.

PS, I had heard rumors that Tri-Tronics was going to offer a GPS unit, but so far nothing much beyond rumor.

Thanks
Rodger

I got that email too and posted something in another thread.

I think the new collar looks great. At first glance, it looks too big for field trials, but if it's only 4 ozs, I guess not.

I guess AKC is going to have to take another look at their list of approved collars.

Looks pretty cool!

Don't think I'd go so far as to say it'll make telemetry obsolete - I can't see any reason to switch, pretty comfortable finding some pretty rangy dogs with my Tracker set up. To start out anew though, might make the decision more difficult if it works as advertised.

Doug and Greg,

The wealth of this will be for dogs that get over a high hill and no tracker signal is picked up. LB with Dan a couple of years ago was gone for 6 days and walked into a cattle ranch 25 miles away at that point. Wickens' Windee dog was lost for a week at this years gun dog championship in Utah and a laldy brought her back in a car.

Those sleepless nights would easily be worth that money. I really like the looks of it. I am anxious to see what Jim fromTri Tronics says will be the cadillac. Competetion for this will make us a great instrument to use.

Pepper

I want one BAD. It would have been very useful in ND last fall. It's going to have to wait, though. The toy fund is low from just buying the new TT 2-dog.

Greg J.

I would guess that that 7 miles is close to maximum range. Without testing, we won't know what is "real world", but as a rule of thumb, I'd apply the standard 1/2 to it like we do with the e-collars.

The way is works is this:

1. The GPS receiver on the collar receives signals from 3 or more sats in the GPS constellation. So, it knows with great precision where it is every few seconds.
(see this tutorial on how GPS works: http://www.trimble.com/gps/howgps.shtml )

2. The handheld also calculates its position with great precision using the same process.

3. The collar unit very frequently radios its position to the handheld unit just like a walkie-talkie. That's the reason for the second, walkie-talkie-like antenna on the handheld.

4. Since the handheld knows where the dog has been, how fast the dog is moving and its own position, it can display things like the dog's position on a map, a "trail" showing the dog's movement (in the past), the direction to the dog, how far it is to the dog and whether the dog is currently moving (i.e., is the dog on point, treeing or similar).

Bottom line: you see the collar unit still has to radio its position to the handheld and the signal will probably be subject to a lot of the same attenuation (like mountains) as the RF direction-finding collars. But, then again, it might be able to use different freqs, etc. that give it different properties.

Glad to have something that I know something about to post on vice having to stumble my way through helping a newbie with dog training...

Greg J.

Exciting news, I was just starting to think about getting a Tracker, this would probably get my business.

I always go get on top of that high hill Jerry in my country and find 'em every time.

Dan's country as you know, where LB skedaddled, doesn't have alot of high, high points but has a lot of those eroded scabrock canyons that sort of drop down off the level prairies - and yah, telemetry in those would be dang tough. You'd just about have to ride to a vantage point on every bend of every one of those canyons to be confident you weren't missing something! I kind of dread having a dog get away from me up there for that reason.

I think that new collar looks good - anxious to hear how it works and holds up for folks. Hard for me to not want to try out some new gadget!!

Don't you just love technology? I just bought a DC 20 collar last week and now the DC 30 comes out and is $15 less than the DC 20?? After looking at it, I may like the DC 20 more due to the fact that I can put it on top of my TT e-collar and not add another collar to my dog's neck. The DC 30 does look cooler though!

Doug,
Nice collection of cell phones, where is your Blackberry??

Rut

Doug,

Why don't you buy one and hang it up at the corral and I will test it out for ya.

Gary

I would buy one. they look great.

Why don't you buy one and hang it up at the corral and I will test it out for ya.

How about I leave the GPS at the corrals then you go see if you can find the collar!! You might want to take, oh, say, 7 miles worth of food and water with ya'...and a raft.




Hey Rutt - I lifted that photo off the web somewhere. The 1st generation Garmin deal reminded me of the old brick phones!

do you guys want these just for field trialing or do you need them for hunting also??

bobman wrote:do you guys want these just for field trialing or do you need them for hunting also??

I want one strictly for hunting. I have a liver gsp and she can disappear in almost any cover, throw in some crp grass or milo and she is gone. I have a beeper, but on a windy day with a little range and rustling milo, I have no idea where she is or if she is on point, sleeping in the truck or headed to Nebraska. I would also like to see how far and how fast my other dog goes everyday!

Rut

I would want one mainly for field trialing, but also because I just think they're pretty darn cool. I don't have a big problem losing my dogs at this point, although my male pup has his moments.

btw, I emailed the AKC yesterday and asked about potentially getting this collar approved. They will be contacting Garmin and seeking more information about it. They will be proceeding cautiously and will make a decision once they feel they have a comfortable understanding of the product. I can't blame them - this would be the first GPS-enabled product they've ever considered for field trial/hunt test use.

Greg Jennings wrote:I want one BAD. It would have been very useful in ND last fall. It's going to have to wait, though. The toy fund is low from just buying the new TT 2-dog.

ditto

This is really really high on my "want list". So far my dog stays close enough and this year's hunting will be done in relatively open places but I have plans for next year to go to some places where the terrain is a little more variable. My dog is my little buddy and I'm highly paranoid about losing him. One of these would do a great deal for my peace of mind. Hopefully I'll have the cash before next fall. Maybe some more competition will bring the prices down a little bit by then as well.

John

I want it for both field trialing and hunting.

Greg J.

[quote="DGFavor"] You might want to take, oh, say, 7 miles worth of food and water with ya'...and a raft.
{quote]

Raft????????? There ain't no water by the corral. You must be talking about another corral.
I mean the corral by my secret............. I mean your secret training spot.

Pretty sure there's a river running about 7 miles as the crow flies north from there isn't there?? Maybe it's farther than that...I asked Rich how far it was and he said it was a good stone's throw. The Garmin deal oughta reach at least a good stone's throw.

If this system get AKC approval I will get one, I'm in the market for a tracking system anyways. In general what is the time range for getting AKC approval?

Terry

No idea on a timetable, but they did say that they would be proceeding cautiously, so I would guess that it'll take a while, especially considering that this collar is basically the first of its kind.

I used a Beeper last season. I am going to get one. I like the idea of hunting silently and still keep track of my dogs. If anyone needs any prices I offer a member discount on Garmin tracking units. If interested in any prices e-mail me at mark@coonriverkennels.com

My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

You can do that with a tracker also.

Doug

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

You can do that with a tracker also.

Doug

But one difference is that a GPS handheld is a lot more discreet than a tracker handheld. No big antennas to unfold.
The other problem I see with anyone trying to pull that shenanigan is that a GPS also needs time to locate satellites and figure out its position; it's not instant-on, especially the handheld models. A GPS hidden inside someone's jacket probably isn't going to get enough signal to resolve its position.

Either way, that begs my next question - how does the handheld work with the collar? Do they both have to be turned on and synched up prior to the brace? Or can you leave the handheld off until it's needed, then turn it on and have it pick up the signal from the dog who's God knows where at that point?

phermes1 wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

You can do that with a tracker also.

Doug

But one difference is that a GPS handheld is a lot more discreet than a tracker handheld. No big antennas to unfold.
The other problem I see with anyone trying to pull that shenanigan is that a GPS also needs time to locate satellites and figure out its position; it's not instant-on, especially the handheld models. A GPS hidden inside someone's jacket probably isn't going to get enough signal to resolve its position.

Either way, that begs my next question - how does the handheld work with the collar? Do they both have to be turned on and synched up prior to the brace? Or can you leave the handheld off until it's needed, then turn it on and have it pick up the signal from the dog who's God knows where at that point?

The GPS seems to work through windshield glass and overhead limbs and things quite well. So, I suspect that a little cloth won't stop it. A human body is probably going to attenuate the signal some, though.

I don't know how they sync. That's an interesting question, through. Anyone have contacts at Garmin?

Greg J.

I have a friend with the first version. I want it bad!
As far as the AKC goes. If they make it legal the cheating will run rampant. It is wayyyy too easy to use. the scout would have to be strip searched.
And even then I think a determined person could get one during the brace (Have one stashed somewhere etc.) It could be used very discreetly and quickly.
The trackers on the other hand are much harder to use, and most people would have a hard time hiding it's use.

If they do make it legal, I will get one fast as the trackers would then be obsolete.

Greg Jennings wrote:
The GPS seems to work through windshield glass and overhead limbs and things quite well. So, I suspect that a little cloth won't stop it. A human body is probably going to attenuate the signal some, though.

I don't know how they sync. That's an interesting question, through. Anyone have contacts at Garmin?

Greg J.

Clothing does indeed make a difference. I have a Garmin 60Cs, which is the model series that the Astro is based on. It will lose a signal pretty readily inside my jacket. Hanging on my belt, not so much as the antenna isn't covered. It does a decent job considering the size of the antenna. Granted, mine is about 2-3 years old and they might have improved the reception some since then. Mine does work fine in my car and also rarely ever lost a signal when I had it in the woods of Maine last year, and that cover got thick!

I'm curious how much people would be tempted to cheat with one of these - it's certainly going to be the first concern as the AKC goes. Are people going to be motivated to go out and buy an extra $400 handheld so they can give one to the judge and another to the scout?
I'm thinking judges are going to want to ensure that they have the handheld, vs the practice I see at some trials where they let the handler carry it on their saddle since there isn't much chance of them being used without somebody noticing.

$400 is chicken feed in the trial game. Most serious trialers have much more than that in their tracking units. Mine was $1250.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

You can do that with a tracker also.

Doug

Yep, but not as easily as could be done with one of these. I personally would like to see them become legal for Trials, but just wonder how the "stray" units could/would be addressed. I don't know about you, but I'm not about to volunteer to do a strip search of anyone around here that Trials! Well, there might be a gal or two

I'm surprised clothing bothers it Paul. I have a Magellan I wear around my neck Grouse Hunting and keep tucked inside my clothing so it doesn't get ripped off of me clawing up one of these Godforsaken Appalachian tangles and can count on it never losing track once it has its initial Satellite lock.

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

I'd see this as a total non issue Bruce. You could easily have twenty tracking systems tuned to a single dog, and there's no way judges would ever begin to try and police them.

You make sure the scout doesn't have one and that pretty much takes care of everything. I don't even worry if the handler is carrying their's because he's not going to be using it and be out of my sight unless his dog is done. CR

WildRose wrote:

AHGSP wrote:My only concern would be the ease with which 2 of the handhelds could be used on one collar. Judge has one handheld....who has the other?

I'd see this as a total non issue Bruce. You could easily have twenty tracking systems tuned to a single dog, and there's no way judges would ever begin to try and police them.

You make sure the scout doesn't have one and that pretty much takes care of everything. I don't even worry if the handler is carrying their's because he's not going to be using it and be out of my sight unless his dog is done. CR

That's what I see as a potential problem. I don't think that there is any limit on how many units can be matched with the collar. A determined scout can find a way to get his hands on one during the brace, even if he and his saddle(bags etc) are searched prior to the brace. I can think of at least two ways that this could happen right off the bat. After using it, it could then be ditched somewhere and recovered later.

Sure this could also happen with a tracker,,,,, but not nearly so easily and discreetly. And the tracker recievers are much more exspensive and fragile than the gps units, which are waterproof and can take much more rough treatment.

AHGSP wrote:
I'm surprised clothing bothers it Paul. I have a Magellan I wear around my neck Grouse Hunting and keep tucked inside my clothing so it doesn't get ripped off of me clawing up one of these Godforsaken Appalachian tangles and can count on it never losing track once it has its initial Satellite lock.

It does. It picks up a signal fairly quickly once I pull it back out, but I wouldn't count on it to retain a signal in my pocket.

On another point, I really don't see people hiding GPS units on course as a valid concern. Is it possible, sure. Is it easier with a GPS than a tracker, sure. Is it a rampant problem - no. And I don't see that changing with a GPS.

Why dont they just let people track the dogs during the trial whats the big deal. I mean as long as it was available to all dogs running I dont see the point. Is it a game of hide and seek or a field trial. I think if its used for hunting than whats the harm. This is my opinion but I dont see the reason for not allowing it.

mm wrote:Why dont they just let people track the dogs during the trial whats the big deal.

The deal is scouting. We're supposed to be putting up dogs that handle to the front, not dogs that are scouted by the person with the best GPS skills. Scouting is the biggest "game" in field trialing already, but I don't see any reason to make it worse than it is now.

phermes1 wrote: Clothing does indeed make a difference. I have a Garmin 60Cs, which is the model series that the Astro is based on. It will lose a signal pretty readily inside my jacket.

I have just about the same one and it doesn't lose track in my pocket. I've only tried it in the pocket of my vest.

SGJ

Thats kinda what I dont understand I am not trying to be a wiswguy or start any trouble. I mean I thought it was about the dogs and their peformance. Why care how you keep track of them.

Greg Jennings wrote:

phermes1 wrote: Clothing does indeed make a difference. I have a Garmin 60Cs, which is the model series that the Astro is based on. It will lose a signal pretty readily inside my jacket.

I have just about the same one and it doesn't lose track in my pocket. I've only tried it in the pocket of my vest.

SGJ

Well ... maybe I got a raw deal on the one I bought. Darn, guess I need to go get a newer, fancier model!!!

Outside pocket of my vest, it's fine. On my belt, it's fine. My inside jacket pocket, or inside a bag, backpack, etc - ie, the places I'd be hiding it if I didn't want anyone to see it - it generally won't hold a consistant signal. I don't think it takes a LOT of access to the open to pick up a signal, but it does take some.

mm - if the constant use of GPS units or trackers in trials were allowed, we'd eventually end up with dogs with no handling inclination whatsoever. All handlers would rely on their GPS vs actually worrying about having a dog that wants to work with them. jmho.

phermes1 wrote:Well ... maybe I got a raw deal on the one I bought. Darn, guess I need to go get a newer, fancier model!!!

Outside pocket of my vest, it's fine. On my belt, it's fine. My inside jacket pocket, or inside a bag, backpack, etc - ie, the places I'd be hiding it if I didn't want anyone to see it - it generally won't hold a consistant signal. I don't think it takes a LOT of access to the open to pick up a signal, but it does take some.

That might be the difference. I put it in a "vest" pocket that barely holds it. That pocket seems like it was made to order for the receiver unit, so that's the only place I've carried it. Also, I've only used it when I was on a single hunting trip in ND.
sgj

phermes1 wrote:mm - if the constant use of GPS units or trackers in trials were allowed, we'd eventually end up with dogs with no handling inclination whatsoever. All handlers would rely on their GPS vs actually worrying about having a dog that wants to work with them. jmho.

My feeling as well.

Really want to shake things up? Suggest that we REQUIRE the dogs to wear them and have the judges keep track of the dogs... OMG, you'd have to go into the Witness Protection Program....

Greg J.

I guess I did not think of that I have limited trial experience.

Let me ask you this about hunting with these garmin GPS units. I want to get one but do you put it on the e collar or do you not run and e collar or do you put both on the dog.

Also has anyone used a gps collar called ROMEO its cheaper but I dont know anyone who has used it.
mm

I put mine on the e-collar, but their is a balance issue. In looking around on the internet, I found that keeping the unit in the top center is a problem and someone came out with a 90 degree fitting and a cable type antenna, does anyone here know how difficult it would be to build one of these:



Could all the supplies be found at your local Radio Shack??

Rut

With the new collar, that wouldn't be an issue.

I have no hands-on experience, but particularly with the new collar, I'd put it on separately from the e-collar. The new collar's design doesn't look very conducive to adding anything to it, and the transmitter/antenna look integrated into the collar, so I don't think they could be moved to another collar very well, either.

phermes1 wrote:With the new collar, that wouldn't be an issue.

The only problem with that is the $400 needed for the upgrade of two collars.

Rut

The handheld unit for the Astro has a high sensitivity receiver. In most handheld Garmin products, this is usually indicated by an "H" in the model number. I bought my dad a Garmin Rino 530HCx for Christmas last year, and the high sensitivity receiver works everywhere - even indoors. I was able to get a good signal in the basement of a two story house with it, and track my path through the house.

Conversely, the E-Trex Legend I have does NOT have a high sensitivity receiver, and it barely works in the woods in winter, and won't work hardly at all with light leaf cover.

So, the new Astro receiver and transmitter units should work absolutely everywhere - inside, outside, in a car glove box, and yes - in a pocket.

NJ GSP,

You're right, the Astro 220 will get a GPS signal just about anywhere. That goes for the DC 20 or DC 30 collar units as well. However, the way the system communicates with eachother is not through the GPS receivers...it's via radio frequency. And I can tell you from experience that one way to limit the range of communication between the two parts is by burying it in a backpack or glove box.

I can't really believe this dicussion is going on...reluctance to adopt a new and arguably superior product because someone might cheat with it? That's like banning guns because someone might rob a bank with one. In my mind, if someone gets caught cheating then they are publically branded a cheat and tossed from the sport for good. I don't understand what would motivate people to be such snakes as to cheat at something like field trials. Can't for the life of me comprehend it.

Dos Perros wrote:NJ GSP,

You're right, the Astro 220 will get a GPS signal just about anywhere. That goes for the DC 20 or DC 30 collar units as well. However, the way the system communicates with eachother is not through the GPS receivers...it's via radio frequency. And I can tell you from experience that one way to limit the range of communication between the two parts is by burying it in a backpack or glove box.

I can't really believe this dicussion is going on...reluctance to adopt a new and arguably superior product because someone might cheat with it? That's like banning guns because someone might rob a bank with one. In my mind, if someone gets caught cheating then they are publically branded a cheat and tossed from the sport for good. I don't understand what would motivate people to be such snakes as to cheat at something like field trials. Can't for the life of me comprehend it.

The problem as I see it wouldn't be the pros or well established Amatuers. Heck I have seen some of the pros who are so skilled with a Tracker unit, that they could cheat now! What stops them is the years they have invested in the sport, and their reputation, along with some basic honesty and dogs good enough to win their share without cheating.

The Astro is an AWESOME product. It is so easy and fast to use that just about anyone could cheat with it. There's the problem. In any competition there will be those with little to lose looking for a shortcut to the top.

Think about this. Most trialers aren't the ones you read about in the magazines, rather they tend to be average people with day jobs who trial when they get a chance. This of course limits how many trials a year they can enter. Most all of them are basically good honest people.
What if someone started cheating with this unit and taking wins that they otherwise wouldn't have. Suppose he/she eventually gets caught and is tarred and feathered etc.

How many good honest regular people will lose out before that happens? Those trials won't be run over. No those people and their dogs just lose out. Since they go to limited numbers of trials, it could easily be the the difference on getting their dogs titled.

AKC will do what they will with it, but I think it would be bad for the sport.

I think the product is superior and I think it will be adopted. What we're discussing is how to have our cake and eat it...how to use the superior product and limit cheating.

Greg J.