i think a client has been hoodwinked

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:00 pm

we have a new guy that has a very birdy dog This dog is solid liver with a white blaze on the front chest Light yellow like eyes and he has papers that say it is a pure bred Weim...He said when he went to buy the pup the breeders said that the dam and sire were the dogs in the property which were both normal looking weims

Yes I doubt daddy on this pup was a weim maybe the litter mates had a weim daddy but this pup i think her daddy was a GSP ...IE the dual sired litter ... but just incase I am missing something is there a possiblity of a Liver weim with a white streak on the front chest?
or am I right in suspecting other

he will be back next weekend..I will try and remember to take my camera down to get some pictures

she is going to be a nice hunting dog no matter what and the guy loves her but what gets me is if someone is passing off a dog as a purebred with papers when it isn't..

I hope I am wrong but except for the lighter eyes and a slight difference in body...i would have thought this dog to be a GSP

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:54 pm

I have seen Weim colored GSP's, never GSP colored Weims. What the heck is next??? :roll:

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:10 pm

It's possible that this is a mouse colored Weimaraner. Mouse is an uncommon color that does occur naturally in the breed. It ranges from a brownish black to dark liver--very similar to a liver gsp. The white blaze is also common in the Weimaraner. As are white toes. I'm not sure what you would get if you crossed a weim with a liver gsp, but I do know that if crossed with most breeds, the pups come out black (as in 'blue' weims, which is not a natural color). Unless the bitch had access to a liver gsp, or similarly colored stud dog, then I would say this is probably a purebred weim.

'Mouse' is an accepted color within the WCA and AKC, and as such, this dog (if purebred) is eligible to compete in the breed ring. Oddly, AKC doesn't have a notation for 'mouse' on the application. The dog should be registered as 'gray.'

Aline
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bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:11 pm

the very birdy part pretty much assures your suspicions are correct

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:25 pm

bobman wrote:the very birdy part pretty much assures your suspicions are correct

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:33 pm

zzweims wrote:It's possible that this is a mouse colored Weimaraner. Mouse is an uncommon color that does occur naturally in the breed. It ranges from a brownish black to dark liver--very similar to a liver gsp. The white blaze is also common in the Weimaraner. As are white toes. I'm not sure what you would get if you crossed a weim with a liver gsp, but I do know that if crossed with most breeds, the pups come out black (as in 'blue' weims, which is not a natural color). Unless the bitch had access to a liver gsp, or similarly colored stud dog, then I would say this is probably a purebred weim.

'Mouse' is an accepted color within the WCA and AKC, and as such, this dog (if purebred) is eligible to compete in the breed ring. Oddly, AKC doesn't have a notation for 'mouse' on the application. The dog should be registered as 'gray.'

Aline
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Interesting.........the guy has a great sense of humor...guess I will have to call her Mouse

Thanks...

cause I have never heard of this nor seen it obviously by my asking

I know there is blue and gray and I have also seen a Long haired weim now I can add a mouse colored weim to the list of dogs we ahve had come to the preserve

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:53 pm

There are about a dozen different weim colors in Germany. All are natural and accepted as long as the basic color is liver. Ironically, the color that is most common in America--silver--is probably the least common color in Germany. I have three Rei Grau, two Dunkel Rei Grau, and one Helles Rei Grau. Then there are the double coated weims--kind of like a silky lab (I have one), and the Stockhaar, which is kind of like a silky GWP.

Aline
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WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:27 pm

Well I'd question the DNA just for my own satisfaction if I were the owner. I have seen two litters of Weim/GSP crosses and that's exactly what they looked at. If it's truely a dark liver like a solid liver GSP I would want to know. If I were the breeder I'd absolutely have done the DNA before selling the pups. CR

h20fwlkillr · Post by **h20fwlkillr** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:50 am

It most likely is a pure bred weim. I've seen quite a few of the mouse (liver) colored weims. My female is one. When here new fur comes in, it is a very dark greyish brown. She looks a lot like a solid liver GSP. It is short lived however. The sun fades it very quickly.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:42 pm

There is a guy here in town that has a weim that is darn near black I would guess a mouse then, when I first saw it I thought it was a gsp.I have seen the liverish weims too.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:56 pm

tfbirddog2 wrote:There is a guy here in town that has a weim that is darn near black I would guess a mouse then, when I first saw it I thought it was a gsp.I have seen the liverish weims too.

One of the reason you see so few mouse weims is that many of their owners incorrectly register them as blues. I have met many 'blue' weims that were really mouse. If you can see even a hint of liver undertones (excluding sun damage to the tips of the hair), it's mouse. Blue weims have no underlying liver color at all. The irony is, these people pay more for the 'rare' blue weim, which is a DQ, and end up with a perfectly normal weim that is well within the standard.

But I agree with Charlie. Even if I were certain this dog is 100% weim, I'd go for DNA just to quell any suspicions. Especially if the dog hunts well

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Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:28 pm

I don't think the guy really cares as long as he can go hunting...which she has the most important thing and that is desire for birds
I think she may already be spayed also as he has no intentions of breeding

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:43 pm

If the dog is truly "liver" I doubt its pure bred, all of the maybe this or maybe that is probably not the case. Kind of like the orange and white gsp that was talked about on this board a few months ago, and there is a current post about now, in my opinion it is much more likely to be a crossbred than a "rare" color, a mouse grey weim doesnt look anything close to a liver GSP to me, but never the less it is possible that it could be pure.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:36 am

Mouse isn't really rare, just less common in America than the other colors (but more common in Germany). Kind of like a solid colored gsp vs. those that are roan, ticked or patched. And all weims are some shade of liver. If they aren't liver, they are DQ'd. There is no comparison to the lemon gsp.

Aline
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ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:04 am

My point is a mouse grey wiems dont look like a soid liver gsp, and the fact that if it is solid liver like a gsp it directly compairs to the lemon and white gsp, Neither are likely to be pure bred dogs but crosses.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:16 am

Is there anything that can be determined from the color of the nose, eyes, etc?

I looked around for pictures, but didn't find any that really told the story.

Greg J.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:26 am

Sure was odd looking.... and

and yeah i had to ask just incase it was possible found out there is such color

...I mean yellow GSP's, Red and silver Labs, now mouse colored weims the first time you see one ...It does leave you scratching your head

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:06 am

Another reason to ask...
In the Brittanys though there are the french lines which allow black the American briattany club has it where Black is a DQ in the show ring even though a brittany with black can recieve a full registration when it comes to the American lines it is looked down on...but there are some well known names in the Brittany world that will on purpose breed an american line to a french line...and treat it as acceptable breeding practice when the french and the american lines are striving hard to maintain what they have

So what better way to learn then to ask?

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:03 am

ACooper wrote:My point is a mouse grey wiems dont look like a soid liver gsp, and the fact that if it is solid liver like a gsp it directly compairs to the lemon and white gsp, Neither are likely to be pure bred dogs but crosses.

Actually, in terms of color, the mouse gray weim looks almost identical to the liver gsp--some lighter, some darker. The color is relatively common in Germany--more common than silver. The difference is in the eyes (yellow), head shape, ear length, etc. Weims just don't look like gsps.

The lemon gsp, on the other hand, I would compare to the blue weim. Could it be due to some extremely rare genetic mutation? Or did a pointer (dobermann for the blue weim) get mixed up in the wood pile? Either is possible, but the latter is much more likely.

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h20fwlkillr · Post by **h20fwlkillr** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:47 am

There is a lot of color variation in weims. Grey is a diluted liver. I have no doubt that the dog is pure bred, but it's color alone could be a DQ in the ring depending on how dark the liver color is. The WCA states that any color darker than mouse grey is undesirable and any distinctly blue or black coats are a DQ.

That said, what difference does it really make if the dog isn't being bred, is birdy and the guy likes him. That's all that really matters.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:34 am

I realize you are far more knowledable regarding weimaraners than I am but the first weim I owned was mouse gray I am familiar with the color at least I think I am, I would like to see a weim that was a dark liver like a gsp that would be a new one for me, but I guess possible I have just never seen one near that dark. Or on the other hand a liver gsp that was that light.

Iam posting two pics I found on google, when I am saying liver this is what I am talking about, I have never seen or had anyone claim that weims come this color, but again I am willing listen I have just never seen or heard of one.

LIver GSP

When I think of mouse gray this is what I have in mind, am I mistaken?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:23 pm

that top picture is what this one that came here looked like

Like I said I will try and remember to take my camera out when he comes back for a training session and get some pics

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:15 pm

ACooper wrote:I realize you are far more knowledable regarding weimaraners than I am but the first weim I owned was mouse gray I am familiar with the color at least I think I am, I would like to see a weim that was a dark liver like a gsp that would be a new one for me, but I guess possible I have just never seen one near that dark. Or on the other hand a liver gsp that was that light.

Iam posting two pics I found on google, when I am saying liver this is what I am talking about, I have never seen or had anyone claim that weims come this color, but again I am willing listen I have just never seen or heard of one.

LIver GSP

When I think of mouse gray this is what I have in mind, am I mistaken?

Yes. You are mistaken. The weim in this photo is Rei Grau or 'Deer Gray' which is a lighter color than mouse. Mouse is considerably darker, and closer in color to the gsp in the picture. There are variations within 'mouse' (as there are within Deer Gray), ranging from solid liver to nearly black. I've searched the web to find a mouse gray weim, but all I get are William Wegman mouse pads!

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ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:42 pm

kninebirddog wrote:that top picture is what this one that came here looked like

Like I said I will try and remember to take my camera out when he comes back for a training session and get some pics

I would bet if it looks like the dog in the top photo it is more likely a half breed, but again just my opinion.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:21 pm

I'm not sure if this dog would be considered mouse or deer gray, as it's pretty light. The mouse weims I have seen range roughly from this color to very dark blackish brown, similar to the photo of the gsp.

Aline
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ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:42 pm

Man if that weim is as dark as that liver shorthair I would be pretty skeptical. I have never seen one that dark, even the blue ones I have seen were sort of a pewterish gunmetal blue color. And Those "yellow" shorthairs.

come on

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:43 pm

I would say that there is a GSP in the woodpile back in there somewhere if the Weimy looks like that top picture. I've never seen a liver Weimy before, at least nothing that looks like that. I think the dark almost black Weimys are actually dark Blues arent they ? Mouse color is not a dark liver its more of a sandy brown, at least the ones I've seen anyway.

Larry Lowell

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:55 pm

I've never seen a mouse color Weim that liver colored. I've seen some dark ones that might even border on being blue but they aren't blues because they don't have the black cast to them.

I'm thinking with that much white and the liver color there could possibly be some pointer or GSP in there.

Knine, what is the ear length? What about ear folds?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:34 am

Hopefully the guy will be back out this weekend ...he is scheduled to be..and I just bought some new batteries for the camera and I will try and remember to take it out to get some pictures

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:42 am

hmm just visited the weim site http://www.weimclubamerica.org/auntie/a ... html#brown

No i am back to my original post.....

Q. What is a 'Brown' Weimaraner?
A. There is a group of people in this country who think they are breeding a better Weimaraner by breeding German Shorthair Pointers to them. They truly believe at some point everyone will think they are improving the breed. It is disturbing at times to receive letters from pet owners asking about 'brown' Weimaraners. Even though these dogs are not papered, they are being sold as true Weimaraners to unsuspecting buyers. The color is the brown of the GSP. One of the most distinctive features of the Weim is its grey coloring, I can not imagine why someone would want to change that. If they want to hunt with a GSP, they should go buy one! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BROWN WEIMARANER. END OF CASE.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:42 am

Man it feels good to be right. haha just kidding..................kinda

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:02 am

Well i did learn about mouse color

but this dog appeared to be darker then a mouse....Can say one thing I am glad he has no intentions of breeding from what information I am gathering

but if the breeder is one of "THOSE " breeders...it sure doesn't do their breed any justice at all

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:22 am

kninebirddog wrote:hmm just visited the weim site http://www.weimclubamerica.org/auntie/a ... html#brown

No i am back to my original post.....

Q. What is a 'Brown' Weimaraner?
A. There is a group of people in this country who think they are breeding a better Weimaraner by breeding German Shorthair Pointers to them. They truly believe at some point everyone will think they are improving the breed. It is disturbing at times to receive letters from pet owners asking about 'brown' Weimaraners. Even though these dogs are not papered, they are being sold as true Weimaraners to unsuspecting buyers. The color is the brown of the GSP. One of the most distinctive features of the Weim is its grey coloring, I can not imagine why someone would want to change that. If they want to hunt with a GSP, they should go buy one! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BROWN WEIMARANER. END OF CASE.

You all understand that this is a blog by an individual who maybe has never seen a Weim. Don't believe much that you see on the net before checking it out.

Ezzy

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:29 am

kninebirddog wrote:but if the breeder is one of "THOSE " breeders...it sure doesn't do their breed any justice at all

Well I dont know if I would go so far as to say that, they did choose to use a GSP, to outcross with, LOL, so that would help the breed as far as becoming a better "Birddog", or at least those dog anyway, LOL

I sure like this topic better than the modern white GSPs are an outcross with EP's, LOL.

Larry Lowell

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:53 am

ezzy333 wrote:[
You all understand that this is a blog by an individual who maybe has never seen a Weim. Don't believe much that you see on the net before checking it out.

Ezzy

Auntie Weimaraner is a twit. ALL weims are brown. Some lighter, some darker. But the brown (liver) is diluted. Even the lightest color-silver-is more of a shimmery taupe, than silver. And I've been around field weims a long time. The notion that anyone would intentionally breed to a gsp is laughable. If someone wanted to cheat, they'd breed to a POINTER

This dog may be a mixed breed. I'm not trying to convince anyone that he's purebred. But the fact that he is more liver in color, is not enough evidence to conclude that he is a cross.

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h20fwlkillr · Post by **h20fwlkillr** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:26 am

Auntie Weimaraner is a twit.

I agree. Came across some of her Q&A's a few years ago and couldn't believe some of the crap she came up with. Read the one about "inbreeding" (aka line breeding). Refers to it as incest and thinks it should not be allowed. Lots and lots of crazy stuff.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:41 am

Maybe it's got some Yellow GSP in it

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:03 pm

ymepointer wrote:Maybe it's got some Yellow GSP in it

Lol Now had it been a white weim I would have thought that or millers LOL

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:51 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
ymepointer wrote:Maybe it's got some Yellow GSP in it
Lol Now had it been a white weim I would have thought that or millers LOL

Funny, when I saw the pictures of the yellow gsp, my first thought was that it looked more like a Weimaraner than a shorthair---just the shape of the head, ears, body, etc. Of course, that doesn't explain the yellow color, or why anyone would want to toss in weimy blood (maybe to improve the gsp?

It's a joke! Don't shoot me!) Maybe these two dogs should get together and create a new designer bird dog--Yellow Weims? Miller's Sour Lemons? Toss in a little (more) Millers and you might just have something

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vcgsp07 · Post by **vcgsp07** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:50 pm

you never know when you will see that yellow gsp at your local hunt test!!!! I just find it funny in reading all of this stuff about the unusual color, i just dont know what to say...

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:24 pm

well the guy didn't makae it out he got hung up in traffic and turned around

can't blame him gets to hot to fast here and he lives over an hour away

so stay tuned will hopefully get a picture the following weekend as we are supposed to have a trial this weekend