Newlitter-Bad news

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:22 pm

I took my litle girl Kurits to the vet on Tuesday as she looked very weak and was kinda unresponsive to food, she was to be due this Saturday May 28th. Come to find out she had Whip Worms and we had to do an emergency C-section. We lsot one pup at the start and there were 10 total that we had. Today we lost another, but that is not the bad news. Kurtis, the mother to this litter didn't make it. Those little D*** worms got the best of her so I was faced with letting the puppies just die or bottle feed every 2 hours for however many weeks. Not much of a questionthere, so i set in to bottle feed every two hours for the next two weeks till my mom and and got back from Fl and they coudl help or takeover for a while (they are leaving tomorrow). Dad was at work the day this all happened and was telling soeone about it, this someone has a dog that use to be ours (in fact we had two litters of pups with her) and he said he had just taken her away from her pups the day before and we could come get her. Being we had two litters with that dog and we knew she was a good momma dog we were going to give it a try, she was use to being with us and we were use to dealing with her. The only problem we would have is if she wouldn't accept them. We showed up at the guys house with a bunch of rags that had had the puppies in them and gave them to teh dog as soon as we got there, then put her in a kennel with the rags. We got home and when she saw then she immediately nosed all of them and then crawled inot teh box the pups were in and assumed feeding position. How awesome is that. So basicaly grandma dog is feeding her grandkids.

To add more to the little fire the other two dogs have whipworms and they are being treated. Want mor fuel, the 80'x80' area we let them run that completely encases the kennells has to be dug out 6" deep, have lime spread and then refilll with new dirt. Looks like I got pups and bobcat work ahead. The bobcat will show up at 10 am on Thursday.

Oh yeah, at the vet we had to rub the rib cages to stimulate the heartbeats on all these pups. My girlfriend was with me and she joined right in next to me rubbing down puppies covered in after-birth and all and later took over the bottle feeding process. I think she's a keeper.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:32 am

Birdhunter, I'm sorry for your loss. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for the rest of your pups.

Patty, what is fading puppy disease? Is it vet talk for what we call failure to thrive in human babies? Wow, and I didn't know they could go into shock from having their tails and dew claws done. What method does your vet use that you think might need to be changed? SOrry for all the questions, I'm just curious.

Best of luck to both of you.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:44 pm

I'm sorry to hear about all the pain you've had to go through these past few days. At least there is a light at the end of the tunnel and you found a "grandma" to take care of them...you lucked out! How are the survivors doing now? How about Grandma? Have you moved them so that they can't get by the contaminated area? Yeah, you better stick with that lady...she'll do you good!

*The Tail docking topic has been split and a new thread started.

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Fri May 27, 2005 9:21 am

Sorry for your loss, but great to hear you caught a break on the feeding. Nothing like have grandma step in & save the day.

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Sat May 28, 2005 11:35 pm

To follow up the grandma wasn't working out. She was tryig but it just wasn't working, it may have been the pups just weren't meant to be or whatever, I don't know. I have 1 survivor right now that I am just bottle feeding. Kinda hectic but he only wakes me up once in the middle of my sleep and ten early in the morning.

He takes almost a full tablespoon at each feeding, sometimes more sometimes a little less. I'll be glad when he can lap it up out of a bowl.

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:44 am

Birdhunter1 wrote:To follow up the grandma wasn't working out. She was tryig but it just wasn't working, it may have been the pups just weren't meant to be or whatever, I don't know. I have 1 survivor right now that I am just bottle feeding. .

Sorry to hear things have taken another turn for the bad.

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:00 pm

On the upside though my other two dogs are doing fine and the one surviving pup is getting fattened up. I had his tail chopped off today and his dews removed, the dew claw removal has to be the most gruesome thing ever. I think it is just the crunching sound that gets to me. The pup has a start of a name, "Gunner Jo". I'll probably add something else to that soon.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:17 am

Brother I feel your pain! The last week, I lost the whole litter of Clown and Niki's pups to Parvo! 7 of them spent many days at the vets and could not pull the hat trick! And yes they all had there first rounds of shots at just shy of 6 weeks.
Know I am doing everything I can to prevent the other litter of 8 pups from getting it! I have moved the litter to my inlaws and I can say I have never used so much clorox in my life! I also vacinated them at 4 weeks to give them a jump, and I will again at 6-7 weeks.

QC ask your wife if this is OK or if I am over doing it?

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:40 am

Sorry to hear about your loss but I'll still trade you scenario's.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:04 am

Birdhunter, I'm happy to hear that the lil guys are on the road to survival! I HATE having the tails and dews done! If they were meant to be that way, they's be born that way! But, it's not up to me to decide. How do you have their tails done? Do they just cut them and then stitch? Do they give them a local at all?

TAK, I'm sorry to hear you lost the entire litter! What a tragedy! What some bad luck we're all having here with losing litters and partial ones. I've not heard of this many litter problems in a long time. There weren't any indications of them having it until it was too late, was there? Any idea as to how/where they picked it up from? Were the vaccines MLV or killed?

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:55 am

Man thats awful Tom. How old were they? Did you give vaccines yourself or vet? We always do it ourselves and have had good luck, so I was just wondering. I don`t think you can overdo it, I have heard you even need to kill the ground around where you had it, and that it takes a yr to go away. Also I always worry about picking it up at the vet. We have always shot pups at 5-7-9-12 weeks.

gsprescuewi · Post by **gsprescuewi** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:13 am

And here is yet another reason why it's not always "fun" or cheap to breed. I'd prefer to leave it up to the professionals. I suspect alot of this could have been avoided had the mother had appropriate vet care prior to and during pregnancy. Dogs need to be tested for all sorts of intenstinal parasites on a routine basis, especially in outdoor situations. I hope all works well, for what you salvaged of this little nightmare, maybe valuable lessons to be learned at the same time?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:44 pm

gsprescuewi wrote:And here is yet another reason why it's not always "fun" or cheap to breed. I'd prefer to leave it up to the professionals. I suspect alot of this could have been avoided had the mother had appropriate vet care prior to and during pregnancy. Dogs need to be tested for all sorts of intenstinal parasites on a routine basis, especially in outdoor situations. I hope all works well, for what you salvaged of this little nightmare, maybe valuable lessons to be learned at the same time?

Lisa,
First Niki the mother is in top condition and up to date on all shots. As ALL OF MY DOGS ARE! Before breeding Niki was in Perfect shape. Tell you the truth since I took a members advice on feeding Raw meat I think she was in better shape than with her first litter! No this can not be avoided because I do everything possible to avoid this! Clorox? I own stock in it! Every Am clean kennels and after PM feed time clean again! No one is allowed at hte keenel with pups around. I do however give all my shots but my vet also keeps a record of when I need to boost!
I take great offence in your coments as you addressing me as I am just doing it for the money and putting two dogs together. This litter and any other litter I have I hope to provide each of the new owners with a dog that they can say came from me and are of the best blood and quility around! I take great pride in my small but explosive breeding program! The sire of the litter Clown I have turned down $5000.00 for him. Money is not everything but enjoying a great dog is! Niki I have been asked to lease here by a few big name gentelman.
Each of the buyers of the pups have elected to just wait for a repeat breeding when done. Each was told up front what I was faced with. I was honest and up front and I have a good feeling about this in my heart!
Lisa I can understand what you do with the rescue and I do support you where I can in any breed, but to label every Tom "bleep" and Harry as a puppy mill or person that does not take steps to avoid this is WRONG!
To save this litter I had each one of them at the vet for extreme measures to save there lives.
Before you go passing judgemnet on a person stop and think "Did they do all they could?" My answer is yes I did!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:56 pm

snips wrote:Man thats awful Tom. How old were they? Did you give vaccines yourself or vet? We always do it ourselves and have had good luck, so I was just wondering. I don`t think you can overdo it, I have heard you even need to kill the ground around where you had it, and that it takes a yr to go away. Also I always worry about picking it up at the vet. We have always shot pups at 5-7-9-12 weeks.

I did the vacines myself as I have for years. I have I hope killed it around my place? I have moved my other litter to my inlaws just for that possiblility. It is hard to say where I got it. Vets? training on used grounds, Trials???? It is so hard to pin it down. I did do alot of reading on the net about the Parvo bug. Most all the info said that it happens to everyone! I also read that if treated with IV's and meds that there is a 80% live rate. I started 6 ofthe pups before I seen any signs of illness. Each did get it and I was hoping with my quick reaction to it I would save them. Well it is history know. I think one thing to is here in Ut we have had a record year for rain this spring and then we are getting some hot days and it is like a big ol petry dish for infections. Also at the same vet there was 4 other dogs of different kinds and age that had Parco also. I was pretty amazed a GSD at 8 moths died from it and was current on all vet work.
I however for the first time in a long time did take my Jesse litter to the vet for the tails and dew claws. Did I get it there???? Sad thing with Parvo it is everywhere and the Vacine is not 100%
THe pups got it between 6-7 weeks I was just starting to wheen the pups. All were eating soft food and momma was with them 3 times a day for a milk boost.
I am working hard to keep my other litter from geting it and my vet seems to think with them so close to it and still on momma and having the 1st shot I will be fine? I will give another round of shots on Wed!

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:02 pm

snips wrote:We have always shot pups at 5-7-9-12 weeks.

Brenda, can I ask you why you start vaccinating them so early and why so close together...what age do you have the pups fully weaned from Mom? All the research that I've ever done showed that they still have the immunities from Mom 3-4 weeks after being weaned off, and that each vaccination covers a 4 weeks span...just curious, is all.

At what age do you start your de-worming program? I start at 2 weeks and then every 2 weeks until they leave...pyrantel.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:11 pm

Well, good luck...We had a litter several yrs ago that we lost to parvo. It was in our old wooden whelping house. We lost them at a very young age, like 3 weeks old. Vet said he rarely saw it. We had 3 pups in the next run at that time that were 8-9 wks old that never got it. We have since built a metal whelp house that has been great. In regards to the other post, I don`t think she was referring to you but to the person that lost their dog from parasites.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:14 pm

I have pups fully weaned at 5 weeks or a few days after. Thats one reason we give the first shot at 5 weeks. I like to have 2 shots in them by the time they leave at 7 weeks. I start worming with Nemex at 2 weeks.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:17 pm

I have pups fully weaned at 5 weeks or a few days after.

Do you go cold turkey or do it gradually? I generally start at 3 weeks and have them off by 5 as well. I've tried cold turkey, but have had better luck with the gradual process...seems more humane as well...I remember those engorged days!

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:24 pm

I do it gradually.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:30 pm

What a terrible tragedy! Just goes to show, you think you are doing everything right and then this happens.

My only thought to all this is the feeding of raw meat. Everyone tells us as humans to cook our meat, why would it not be the same for our animals. In the wild with raw meat their only sorce of food, many die from contaminated raw meat and the parasites they ingest. I just don't see the advantage. I personally believe any mature dog being fed raw meat that comes up positive with parisites could be because of the feeding of raw meat..

My shot program is 6-8-12-16 weeks. As a youngster I remember our vets used that schudule and it seems to work fine.

Janet

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:08 pm

gsprescuewi wrote:And here is yet another reason why it's not always "fun" or cheap to breed. I'd prefer to leave it up to the professionals. I suspect alot of this could have been avoided had the mother had appropriate vet care prior to and during pregnancy. Dogs need to be tested for all sorts of intenstinal parasites on a routine basis, especially in outdoor situations. I hope all works well, for what you salvaged of this little nightmare, maybe valuable lessons to be learned at the same time?

Believe me I do everything possible to avoid this sort of stuff. Like TAK, clorox also sends me Christmas cards every year and I do keep tigns clean. maye she picked it up at our huntign club or from somewhere else, I don't know but I do know it caused alot of problems. The dogs showed not sign of it at all, in fact the other twoi have still show no sign or symptoms. The one that died the smptoms came practically overnight.
If you can tell me what I can do to "avoid" this in the future I've got open ears and I'd love to hear your advice.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:22 am

Country-Side Breeders wrote:
I have pups fully weaned at 5 weeks or a few days after.
Do you go cold turkey or do it gradually? I generally start at 3 weeks and have them off by 5 as well. I've tried cold turkey, but have had better luck with the gradual process...seems more humane as well...I remember those engorged days!

I too gradually start to wean at 4.5 to 5 weeks with mom helping out. The first few meal is more warm water with driy kibble sooking it up and they get the taste of watered down food and then move into eating it all up.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:26 am

birddog wrote:What a terrible tragedy! Just goes to show, you think you are doing everything right and then this happens.

My only thought to all this is the feeding of raw meat. Everyone tells us as humans to cook our meat, why would it not be the same for our animals. In the wild with raw meat their only sorce of food, many die from contaminated raw meat and the parasites they ingest. I just don't see the advantage. I personally believe any mature dog being fed raw meat that comes up positive with parisites could be because of the feeding of raw meat..

My shot program is 6-8-12-16 weeks. As a youngster I remember our vets used that schudule and it seems to work fine.

Janet

QC could give you better detail on the raw meat and the best advantages to it. My personal opinion to it.... is that it has given my dogs more bottom end. I seen an improvemnet and I do feed a good dog food. The pups was not on the raw meat but rather the mother was on it prior to her heat cycle and breeding. She was in likely the best shape of her life at time of breeding.

gsprescuewi · Post by **gsprescuewi** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:00 am

TAK: First of all I meant NO OFFENSE. My message is to all breeders, I never meant to target ONLY YOU. If you run a clean ship, do it all according to plan, things STILL happen. I'm so sorry you lost the litter, and hope the area has been cleaned so you don't have to suffer this tragedy again. My message still stands, it is not cheap to breed, you do it for the love of the breed. My hat goes off to you all! I'll keep doing what I do to save the ones that can be...you keep doing what you do. Best of luck on next litter!

Lisa

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:18 am

gsprescuewi wrote:TAK: First of all I meant NO OFFENSE. My message is to all breeders, I never meant to target ONLY YOU. If you run a clean ship, do it all according to plan, things STILL happen. I'm so sorry you lost the litter, and hope the area has been cleaned so you don't have to suffer this tragedy again. My message still stands, it is not cheap to breed, you do it for the love of the breed. My hat goes off to you all! I'll keep doing what I do to save the ones that can be...you keep doing what you do. Best of luck on next litter!

Lisa

Lisa, I am sorry I acted out! If you was not pointing a finger at me then, I be sorry!

You are so right, things do happen! We can only hope that we get more things in our favor than not.!

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:08 pm

Since the word of Parvo is around I have since set up a Clorox pan up going into our backyard. Everyone that enters (Rick & I also) has to dip feet. With 3 litters this summer I am taking no chances....

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:26 pm

good info to know!! thanks brenda!!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:52 pm

snips wrote:Since the word of Parvo is around I have since set up a Clorox pan up going into our backyard. Everyone that enters (Rick & I also) has to dip feet. With 3 litters this summer I am taking no chances....

Very good idea! I talked with a friend at the trial last week and he lost a litter years ago to. He know raises them from day one in his basement. Even tho I have the pups and mom moved I still wonder if it is on me and I track it right to them.

I really wish there was more idea of a cure out there for this! I talked to an old bird dog breeder a few weeks ago. He was saying in the 60's and 70's there was not even a vacine to help prevent it! He said he tried to have all his litters in the Fall and winter hoping the cold would fight it off. He talked about loosing 5-6 litters a year!

blitzkrieg · Post by **blitzkrieg** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:57 pm

Some sad situations.

Parvo has been common around here for a long time now. The old trainers and dog people used to keep the litters in raised wire cages/pens to keep the pups from contact with the ground and the parvo virus. I don't know how well it worked. Maybe someone knows some more about it. Luck, Aaron

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:08 pm

Sad thing about parvo is it is extremely easy to spread.....Driving over an affected area then driving in to your driveway you have spread it that far.

I also vaccinate 5 7 9 11 and 13 weeks of age...worming on even weeks and will have the poop tested and will stop worming if there is no evidence of worms in all of the pups...as this can harm the good bacteria they need.
I do the parvo with corona as i have seen corona rear its ugly head on top of an already sick pup.
As with anyone who breeds responsibly we try to do everything we can to ensure healthy pups but sometimes God forbid unforeseen things happen.
I know it tears me up something fierce when i loose a pup even if it was still born.

My heart goes out to the hard work the effort and loss ...

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:03 pm

Birdhunter1 wrote: maye she picked it up at our huntign club or from somewhere else, I don't know but I do know it caused alot of problems. The dogs showed not sign of it at all, in fact the other twoi have still show no sign or symptoms. The one that died the smptoms came practically overnight.
If you can tell me what I can do to "avoid" this in the future I've got open ears and I'd love to hear your advice.

you weren't asking me, but I think I can help on the whipworm iussue.
They get whipworms from ingesting the eggs which are encased in some sort of impossible to kill protective stuff. Bleach standard dilution, clorohexaderm and others do not do much to eliminate it from soil. They will "die" after about 3-5 years if you have no re-infestations and your soil will be "clean" again until you take them hunting and they eat grass or dirt or drink muddy water and get them again. Nastly little worms! And you are right, most dogs show hardly any symptoms, and many die quickly over only a few days. To prevent it you can use Interceptor or Sentinal (monthly heartworm prevention that also prevents whips among others.) We switched to Interceptor a few years ago ourselves.

As for Parvo... it's just plain evil in my opinion. Way too contagious!

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:25 am

ALL of them are on Interceptor now. They were on heartguard before and I had them tested for other worms everytime I went to the vet, now they are on interceptor and no problems.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:14 am

Well my Jesse-Jinx liter of 8 all made it! It was a little more work but it was worth it!
The last of the pups will be going on Sat and Wed.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:46 am

Is this the litter you moved. or did you keep them there?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:44 pm

snips wrote:Is this the litter you moved. or did you keep them there?

Yes you are right this is the litter I moved to the inlaws. I have also been continuing to look at other measures to make sure this was a one time thing. I talked to Dave Walker and asked what he has done for Vacinations. He told me to talk to the boss, his wife. Faye did send me an email on what she does and the brands that she orders and would you know it I just deleted the entire e-mail! I will get it again and post it!
The 8 pups turned out real well. I did not get to spend as much time as I like since I could bring it to them from my place. But each pup that has went home has taken to the family great. It is funny a few of the MEN had to do some convincing to the wives for a new pup. It sounds like the pups are all taking to the gals more than the men!

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:55 am

***Follow up***

After removi g the top 6"of dirt from where the dogs ran (an 80' x 80' fenced in area to keep them out of the road), spreading 1-2" of lime and then adding new dirt, rebuilding that entire fence, seeding in grass and bottle feeding our one surviving puppy the big digs are doing well and the pup is looking great.
The big dogs knew something wasn't right with their home, it now is somewhat back to normal for them and they are eatign better and looking better.

The pup, I'll try to get some pics of him later, he's a stocky little turd. His name is Gunner Jo, he just turned 6 weeks old and weighs almost 5 lbs., looks like he's got a tennis ball in place of a belly, runs tillhe falls over and then when you put him on his back he can't hardly get his belly out of the way to roll over. And he can growl and sound like the meanest dog ever, and he's already barking at cats so he's definitely gonna be a good dog.

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:29 pm

snips wrote:Man thats awful Tom. How old were they? Did you give vaccines yourself or vet? We always do it ourselves and have had good luck, so I was just wondering. I don`t think you can overdo it, I have heard you even need to kill the ground around where you had it, and that it takes a yr to go away. Also I always worry about picking it up at the vet. We have always shot pups at 5-7-9-12 weeks.

sectagon will work well on ground sterilzation
its pretty cheap its about 50 $ for 5 gallons
its nasty stuff dont breathe it or get it on you

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:43 pm

We, at the Hospital, use something called "Coverage". I work with blood, and just about everything that humans can get, is in our lab. AIDS, hep B, STD's,

Everything! Coverage Kills everything. It is an anit viral and anti fungi. Good Stuff. You want to make sure to hose down the worked area really well before letting the dogs back in the area.

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