Dog pricing

[Better Birddogs]

I was wondering what makes a dog worth 5000. What makes 8 week old pups worth a 1000. I feel that there are very few dogs in the world that are worth 5000 and furthermore if a dog is truly worth that then there should be no reason he is for sale. JMO. I'd like to hear a little philosophy behind the pricing of dogs for sale. I have bred a few litters (50-75) and sold most of my pups for 250-400. That includes pups out of Shadows Mark, Miller's Online, House's Rain Water, House's Rain Cloud, Miller's White Powder and so on. Just wanting to hear people's thoughts.

BB

[JakeDD]

Supply.
Demand.
Perceived value.

[gar-dog]

Supply.
Demand.
Perceived value.

And location... It seems dogs on the East Coast are more expensive - as is everything else. I paid $900 for my pup. I could have bought one for $500 in other locales, then paid $300-$400 for shipping.

[cgbirddogs]

An age old question...I suppose some of it has to do with what the market will bear. People are willing to pay more for the "Stud de jour" pup (most recent winner of the National Championship, Sinbad, Fibber McGee, Strut, Blackhawk, etc.) Sometimes it's a matter of trying to recoup the expense of a litter. If you pay $1,000 for stud fees, and incur $1,000 in shipping costs to get the female to the stud, a higher cost for the pup is in order. Not everybody is getting over with 1,000.00 puppies. All it takes is an unexpected trip to the vet because of some ailment, and there goes any hope of breaking even on a litter.

[PntrRookie]

I probably would never pay more than 750 for a pup, but I would pay 2-3x that once it is started and I see what's it got. I cough under my breath when I see pups trying to be sold by a CH/FC/AFC/this and that - out of my "huntin' buddy" for 1000 or more. To me it looks like they are taking advantage of a fad or need to get their stud fee out of the pups and are hoping for "name recognition" pricing. When really we all know that pups are a crap shoot, but starting with good blood helps playing the game.

[Better Birddogs]

But CG just because you foot the money to get the bitch bred and shipping and all that is involved does that make your litter worth more money. To me the value of a dog should be determined but how nice the dog is. Not someone's expenses involved.

[cgbirddogs]

But CG just because you foot the money to get the bitch bred and shipping and all that is involved does that make your litter worth more money. To me the value of a dog should be determined but how nice the dog is. Not someone's expenses involved.

I guess I'm more of a 'glass is half full' kinda guy. I think as a whole, there is a better class of bird dogs being whelped today (speaking about EPs since that is what I'm breeding). I believe a pup's success has more to do with how it is brought along, as oppose to what's missing from the pedigree. That's why you can go down to Texas and watch a string of dogs that hasn't sniffed a field trial put on field trial caliber performances day in and day out. The pedigree is there, these dogs have been exposed to wild birds consistently from a young age and they end up being exceptional bird dogs. So to sum it up, these 1,000 pups are nice pups. Whether they turn out to be all that they can be is up to who owns them, not the pedigree. I hope that makes sense.

[tfbirddog2]

Dog pricing on here to me is almost like religion and ploitics at morning coffee at the coop, one point of view to the next.or maybe like classic cars people think if I buy it for $1000 and stick this motor,tranny,tires,and ect..I can sell it for $20,000 you never get you money back so dont ask make things reasonable.Im out here with average joes and farmers and will ask or average price too $300 to $500 it depends lots folks dont care about who granddad or grandma was, they want to know the thing that everyone forgets here but is a major for me, and what everyone asked me when I was selling pups"DO MOMMA AND DADDY HUNT" not test well and do they have JH,MH.SC,BLAH,BLAH I could care less about a dog that test,heck I didnt test well in school but I got a full freezer full of dead birds me and my dogs got. There is a kennel I wont disclose that gets around a $1000 ro better a pup and sells there finished for thousands and of the 9 dogs I have hunted with those floks paid about $950 to much.I just paid $500 for a pup this year was it worht it so far so good tell you more in 3 three months if sees worth it but not worried so far.basicly price I think goes with the region and community so to say, $500 is my tops $1200 to $1500 for 1yr old to 18month old dog, make sure my wife doesnt see this post please she might file papers if she knew how much Im willing to spend on a dog, she gasped at the pup 3 months ago.

[Karen]

Purchase price of a puppy is such a small drop in the bucket compared to training, vet care and just general maintenance for the next 12-14 years (if you're very lucky), that it's really irrelevant to me. I've been given free pups, I've paid $500, I've paid $1000. I've never looked back and thought I paid too much, although I have looked back and wondered why some were so cheap.

I say that, when puppy shopping, find the pup that you think best suits your needs and buy it. I wouldn't let $500 stand in my way. You have to live with that decision for a lot of years to come.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

If you have pups out of a national champion breeding, by a dog that has not shown to produce much as of yet, and a female who is well bred, but has had 50 pups with one hour champion, those pups might be $600 pups. Then, you breed your female, who has produced 4 hour champions in only two litters, all pups proved to be pretty good performers, certainly excellent birddogs with style, speed, only thing lacking might be big range, then those pups, as prospects might be worth at least $1,000.

A derby who has proven he has the style, speed, stamina, range, and desire, he's 18 month old, then he might be worth every penny of $5,000. But a pup from $700, send him to the prairies as a 10 month old for $1,500, hunt him for a year, let a pro have him to mess with, then he turns out to be a decent hunting dog, but not a trial dog. You sell him for $1,200, but you have $5,000 in him. Spend the $5,000 on the mostly proven entity and be ahead of the game.

A puppy who is running big, hunting hard, has tons of style, and can win now, he sure is worth $1,500 to $2,000.

Or, just keep shelling out $600 on pups, buy 10, and none are what you want. The $2,000 to $5,000 is worth the investment.

[Better Birddogs]

I'm of the opinion that there is NO 7 week old pup worth 600 to me and there sure is no derby aged dog that is worth 5000 to me. Just because a dog has all the characteristics doesn't mean he'll finish. And even if he does finish out it doesn't mean he'll win. Dog prices have gone through the roof and for no good reason.

[ezzy333]

Purchase price of a puppy is such a small drop in the bucket compared to training, vet care and just general maintenance for the next 12-14 years (if you're very lucky), that it's really irrelevant to me. I've been given free pups, I've paid $500, I've paid $1000. I've never looked back and thought I paid too much, although I have looked back and wondered why some were so cheap.

I say that, when puppy shopping, find the pup that you think best suits your needs and buy it. I wouldn't let $500 stand in my way. You have to live with that decision for a lot of years to come.

I hear this arguement so often but I still have problems with it. Seems like I could use the same arguement about buying a car or most other appliances and yet the same people who say that what you pay for a pup is too minor to even be concerned with sure don't follow that thinking when buying a car or any other appliance they use.

It always seems to me you hear the arguement from sellers a lot more than you do buyers. Price does make a difference to me and I do agree we have let the price of dogs get way out of line but I also am smart enough to know that the free market needs to set the price and when that happens I have to think the price must be right since people are willing to pay the amount.

I know I bought mine for a lot less than a thousand dollars. I had to go out east to get the breeding I wanted and paid $350 and then went to Michigan for the female but had to pay 500 for her. More than I wanted to but when you consider she is a daughter to the 98 NFC runnerup and a grand-daughter of the 83 NFC and it was the pedigree I needed I decided to do it and both of those dogs are leading sires of good birddogs. And it has worked well. Both of my dogs are short coated, lightly feathered, show quality dogs that love to hunt and are very good at it. I haven't trialed them but have run in some fun trials and both have always placed with nice comments from the judges. Off hand I don't know just what I would do to improve them other than more and better training and I find that a never ending project.

Ezzy

[Don]

I'm of the opinion that there is NO 7 week old pup worth 600 to me and there sure is no derby aged dog that is worth 5000 to me. Just because a dog has all the characteristics doesn't mean he'll finish. And even if he does finish out it doesn't mean he'll win. Dog prices have gone through the roof and for no good reason.

I am firmly in your boat. I believe it is all about whatever the market will bear. I traded a nice shotgun for the two I have now but I didn;t like and never used it, Browning Citori 20ga. Had I been paying cash I'd have never paid what was being asked, $750. I don't care what a pedigree say's, every pup is a crap shoot, duffer's come from NaT Ch bred dogs just like any other. And lot's of ch's come from pretty much backyard breeding. taht a look at Sunrise, would anyone have paid a bid price for him as a pup? Out of two unknowns and unproven dogs at the time.

I keep hearing about how much it cost's to get a dog proven then how much it cost's to raise a litter. I guess I should believe that the only reason anybody trials a dog is to make money off of it somehow, they don't and most know it. So once the dog does anything good, the price of pup's goes up. What that does is to allow the backyard breeder, who may have very nice dogs himself, the raise the price of his pups to unreasonable. Whatever the market will bear!

[gar-dog]

Your opinion is very valid, as you are the one that makes your purchase decisions. Others have different needs and requirements. If someone wants a finished dog, they want a finished dog, so an 8 week-old pup isn't even worth $10 to them. Likewise, if someone wants to raise and train a pup themselves, they may pay up for a good breeding merely to increase their odds, and scoff at a great price on a started or finished dog because that is simply not what they want. For some people, dropping $1k-$2k on a dog is no big deal. To others that is a fortune. It is what it is.... let the market bear what the market will bear.
G

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

If you want a meat dog, don't really care about pedigree, or much about the lineage, and you pay $350 for a pup, then another guy wants a trial prospect, he buys from national caliber breeding from parents who are proven to produce nice trial dogs, often winners, and he pays $1,000 which buyer is right? which is wrong? Neither, IF they both get what they want from the dogs. I've seen far too many people buy from national champion dogs, who have never produced much, they buy 4 pups, spend $500 a piece and end up with 4 barely hunting caliber dogs. To me, the guy who spends $2,000 and buys from unproven producers is a fool, if he thinks what he gets will have a good chance of becoming a dog, based solely on the parents' winning records, NOT on their production records. Many national champions have produced great dogs, many national champions never produced much, many no named dogs have produced nothing dogs and many have produced national champs. It's the prooduction of the parents, not their own winning record.

A pup for $1,000 is only too much if no one will pay the $1,000. A derby is worth $5k if you have a buyer with a checkbook standing at ready.

[Better Birddogs]

This argument I don't get. How many pups from proven parents wash out every year? A bunch. If you breed a dog enough he'll throw one or two good ones but during that process how many culls has he thrown. "Proven Parents" throw more culls then winners. This is why the above argument holds no weight with me at all. Proven parents are a nice thought but to me are just a way to jack the price up on people who don't know any better. Proven is such an overused term anyway.

[gar-dog]

Proven is such an overused term anyway.

It definitely means different things to different people. That's why it doesn't matter to anyone but you when it comes time for your decision.

Do you believe breeding means anything at all then?
For instance, take a backyard breeder's pup versus a pup from champion pedigrees.... do you think there is an equal chance of success of the two pups? I think most would think the pedigreed pup has better odds, and they are willing to pay for those odds. But there are no guarantees. But there is a price on those odds. You value those odds less than others I presume. So be it.

[topher40]

Do you believe breeding means anything at all then?
For instance, take a backyard breeder's pup versus a pup from champion pedigrees.... do you think there is an equal chance of success of the two pups? I think most would think the pedigreed pup has better odds, and they are willing to pay for those odds. But there are no guarantees. But there is a price on those odds. You value those odds less than others I presume. So be it.

I dont believe that breeding means more from a Nat. Ch. than a guy that has an ocassional litter. Ten bucks says that out of every litter, no matter the breeding, your going to have dogs that make it and dogs that dont. I have a litter on the ground right now, may not be much for breeding by some peoples opinions, but they have the same odds IMO. If you take an unproven female and breed her to some big time dog what are your odds? The only odds you have are that your going to ask more for those "crapshoot" puppies. Are yours going to be any better than the next guys? When you buy a puppy you can do all your research, spend all the money, and ask for all the papers. In the end your "shooting crap". How many people breed unproven females, then say " Yeah but I bred her to such and such dog". People that dog this have their views on breeding backwards, and unfrotunately there are TONS of them out there. I know Betterbirddogs and believe I know where this is coming from.

By the way I still have 3 pups left for all those who like to play "craps"

[zzweims]

I charge between $1000-$1500 for my pups. Even I find this ridiculously high. So a couple of years ago, I lowered my price in hopes of attracting better homes. Well, it backfired. People called and asked me what was wrong with my pups. Afterall, puppymills get at least $1000 for pups out of parents with no titles at all. If I charge less, people think they are getting an inferior product.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[Yawallac]

If you have pups out of a national champion breeding, by a dog that has not shown to produce much as of yet, and a female who is well bred, but has had 50 pups with one hour champion, those pups might be $600 pups. Then, you breed your female, who has produced 4 hour champions in only two litters, all pups proved to be pretty good performers, certainly excellent birddogs with style, speed, only thing lacking might be big range, then those pups, as prospects might be worth at least $1,000.

A derby who has proven he has the style, speed, stamina, range, and desire, he's 18 month old, then he might be worth every penny of $5,000. But a pup from $700, send him to the prairies as a 10 month old for $1,500, hunt him for a year, let a pro have him to mess with, then he turns out to be a decent hunting dog, but not a trial dog. You sell him for $1,200, but you have $5,000 in him. Spend the $5,000 on the mostly proven entity and be ahead of the game.

A puppy who is running big, hunting hard, has tons of style, and can win now, he sure is worth $1,500 to $2,000.

Or, just keep shelling out $600 on pups, buy 10, and none are what you want. The $2,000 to $5,000 is worth the investment.

Read this over and over until you get it.

Great post Trueblu

[gar-dog]

You wonder in a long line of champions... did a dog become a champion because it was trained and campaigned hard because of its lineage, as opposed to becoming a champion because of its lineage? In other words, is someone more likely to put the time and effort into a champion pedigreed dog. So does Phil Simms' kid get a better look at tryouts and get more opportunity simply because he is Phil Simm's son.

I am of the view that breeding matters, but it is not everything.

FYI, as for adult dogs, I would have no problem paying $3k for a good solid, finished hunting dog. Especially now that I am learning what goes into training a pup.

[romeo212000]

I think that has a lot to do with it. Someone who is capable and willing to pay the high price for a dog with amazing bloodlines will also put a great deal more money and time into training and campaigning.

[ezzy333]

This argument I don't get. How many pups from proven parents wash out every year? A bunch. If you breed a dog enough he'll throw one or two good ones but during that process how many culls has he thrown. "Proven Parents" throw more culls then winners. This is why the above argument holds no weight with me at all. Proven parents are a nice thought but to me are just a way to jack the price up on people who don't know any better. Proven is such an overused term anyway.

The answer I think is very few. Pups from well bred dogs will basically be as good as their parents. And all of out hunting breeds have been bred long enough that probably 95% or better will be good dogs. Some may be better than others and there may be differences in the pups within the litter. Nice thing is there are people looking for different qualities in the pups they want and that is great. The challenge is getting the right pups to the right people.

Hunting dogs have been around for many years and I have seen very few that are bred to hunt that don't.

Ezzy

[Meller]

I think there is justification for both the back yard breeder and the trial breederand thier pricing; where I dissagree is where people condem the backyard breeder as not trying to improve the breed, I never heard of anyone saying your dog isn't worth a hoot would you mind if I breed to him, so I can sell cheap puppies, most people that want to breed to a dog see something that they like in the male or female that they think will improve in the pup's, plus they can sell reasonable enough and keep one for themselve's.
As for the professional breeders they have spent numerous hours time and energy gathering information on several different dogs, breeding several different crosses, watching puppies from several different crosses trying to get just the right mixture of bloodlines to turn out the probable pup that will perform in the manner they expect and hopefully pass this on in thier gene's. So when you are buying a puppie from the professional your also buying a lot of research at thier expense; granted we all don't need a champion trial dog, but if we did it would be nice to know where to find one and if we just want a puppie out of someone's good hunting partner it's good to have that too.
So I think I can see justification for both venues and some justification for the difference in pricing. Would I give a thousand for a puppie just to hunt with probably not; would I give a thousand for a better chance in field trialing maybe.
Just a thought

[BarkRidge]

If you have pups out of a national champion breeding, by a dog that has not shown to produce much as of yet, and a female who is well bred, but has had 50 pups with one hour champion, those pups might be $600 pups. Then, you breed your female, who has produced 4 hour champions in only two litters, all pups proved to be pretty good performers, certainly excellent birddogs with style, speed, only thing lacking might be big range, then those pups, as prospects might be worth at least $1,000.

A derby who has proven he has the style, speed, stamina, range, and desire, he's 18 month old, then he might be worth every penny of $5,000. But a pup from $700, send him to the prairies as a 10 month old for $1,500, hunt him for a year, let a pro have him to mess with, then he turns out to be a decent hunting dog, but not a trial dog. You sell him for $1,200, but you have $5,000 in him. Spend the $5,000 on the mostly proven entity and be ahead of the game.

A puppy who is running big, hunting hard, has tons of style, and can win now, he sure is worth $1,500 to $2,000.

Or, just keep shelling out $600 on pups, buy 10, and none are what you want. The $2,000 to $5,000 is worth the investment.

There is no such thing as a $1000 puppy. Only a seller, or the foolish, will buy into that one. It is not what a puppy does now that asserts value; it is what that dog does at three and beyond that deems worth.

I agree in principle. A non-breeding trialer will buy a dog that IS showing something before money changes hands. A breeding trialer will go thru pups looking for the one, selling off the ones which do not make the cut..

[wems2371]

There is no such thing as a $1000 puppy. Only a seller, or the foolish, will buy into that one. It is not what a puppy does now that asserts value; it is what that dog does at three and beyond that deems worth.

That's great in theory, but by the time the dog is 3--if he's any good, you won't be able to touch him for $1000. So the puppy price is an investment. Yes it might be somewhat of a crapshoot, but if you do your research you can increase your odds of coming out on top. Denise

[Dave Quindt]

There is no such thing as a $1000 puppy. Only a seller, or the foolish, will buy into that one. It is not what a puppy does now that asserts value; it is what that dog does at three and beyond that deems worth.

I agree in principle. A non-breeding trialer will buy a dog that IS showing something before money changes hands. A breeding trialer will go thru pups looking for the one, selling off the ones which do not make the cut.

So what's the magic price tag that changes a pup from a high-dollar pup that's worth the asking price and the price only a fool would pay? To you, $1k is too high. It is $999? $899? What's the number?

Do you ever take into considering location and local economy? Let's say you are a plumber and I am a plumber; I'm located in TN and you're located in suburban Boston, or Seattle. We both live in 4 bed, 2 bath homes on a half-acre. We both have 15% of our annual income to spend on "fun stuff" (i.e. dogs, hunting etc) Take a guess and what the difference of that 15% is! Take a guess at what the difference is between our annual incomes or the mortgage payments on our homes. To the guy making $45k a year, that $1k pup is out of reach. For the guy making $80k a year, it's a reasonable price.

BarkRidge, you come from the old school AF pointer model which was based on volume; breed 50, cull 45 and get 5 worth trialing. In that model, prices were always low because the expectations that each pup would make the cut were low. That's a fine model, but it's not the only model out there.

Right now in the Lab FT/HT world repeat breedings of litters that produced mutiple FCs/QAAs/MHs will run up to $5k a pup. Quality derby prospects will run in the $25k range. Now, to you folks paying that kind of money are fools. But to the guy who is going to pay $850+/month for training (not the $350 the pointer guys get) for 10 months a year, and will have 24 months of training in the dog before he knows if he's got a national caliber dog or a hunt test dog, the difference between paying $500 and $3000 for a pup is a drop in the bucket. Keep in mind that it takes 2-3 times as long to train a Lab to to be ready to run that Master Hunter hunt test than it does to train a Pointer to run a broke dog stake. And that's just a hunt test dog! That derby dog for $25k is a STEAL if he's the real thing because you'd have paid $50k+ to go through the 3 or 4 washouts before you've got one that's really got the goods.

Is the $1k pup 10 times as better as the $100 pup? Of course not, but odds but if I'm buying a pup and I know what I want, that $1k pup will have much better odds of meeting my expectations that any $250 pup will. And considering what I'm going to stick into a dog my the time I'm done with him, I'll gladly trade the $750 to get the dog I really want because it's a drop in the bucket.

FWIW,
Dave

[gar-dog]

Wow, $25k for a dog. The type of people that have $25k to drop on a dog are likely not fools, or they wouldn't have that $25k in the first place.

I paid $900 for my pup, and probably have dropped at least $500 on the vet so far this year for vaccinations, microchipping, etc. $350 for a collar. Joined a training club with 350 acres. $50 in gas in the SUV for each visit to the club. My trainer will charge $400 per month. I will spend several hundred dollars for a cabin in NH and a couple of hundred in gas for 3-4 grouse (hopefully). I am with Karen - in that in 4-5 years what I paid for the pup - be it $100 or $3000 will be irrelevant. This is an expensive hobby. I also spend a couple of thousand a year at the clays range - rendering the price of my shotguns irrelevant over time as well. And you people with horses? I guess we are all fools ! Maybe we should just shoot the dogs and watch TV instead.... uh oh, don;t get me started about my cable bill....

[ezzy333]

And now we know why the average famijy isn't trialing and why the numbers are down. We are talking a rich mans game and I do mean game. Spend the money Dave talks about and there still isn't a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. When I got interested in birddogs, I did it because I loved to hunt abd loved the dogs. 50 years later I still have the dogs because I love to hunt and love to see the dogs work. And not being able to afford to play the games that would be fun is still the same. Single income and 5 kids through school was about all that we could afford. And the dogs are still getting better I think and the people getting pups sure think they are good. Just hope I can keep it that way for a few more years.

Ezzy

[birdsandbirds]

I bet Ferrel never paid $1500 for a pup....opportunity is what makes alot of dogs not the puppy price..

[Ryan Baumann]

I bet Ferrel never paid $1500 for a pup....opportunity is what makes alot of dogs not the puppy price..

He sure didn't! If your in it to really win it. you breed your own and only share what you have with close friends. Nothing is really for sale that carries value. The good stuff is never seen until its time.

This thread has some real players talking people. pay attention.

Ryan.

There not me.

[oakcreek]

I don't understand why anyone would sell a pup for $250. If you have done your job as a breeder then you most likely have near $200 in every pup if you bred to an outside stud. Why even breed a litter?

I realize that $1000 is a lot of money, but that is the least of your expenses. If that gets you into a breeding that you like, have a good knowledge of what the sire and dam have produced, and future potential then why wouldn't you.

I have culled out $1000 dogs, kept $400 dogs, but I still believe that if you do your homework and buy from the right litter that should produce what you want 1,000 is well worth the time you spent in choosing your pup, and the future time you will spend with your pup

[PowerPoint]

This is a good thread!I try to breed Ch sired pups,when I do breed,which hasnt been alot,but what I see is IF you dont you cant get a wooden nickle for a pup,unless theres an "Elhew" prefix on the dog,which I REALLY dont get that "800" bucks for one of those pups?!?!?.It is rediculous.You cant charge too much either these days,with the wonderful economy either.I look on the web at going prices,and try to go below that, trying to give the blue collar guy,like me a chance to have a shot at having a chance to have a real special dog.My last litter I sold I priced at 200 bucks under what I had paid for the EXACT bloodlines.It makes me feel good seeing peoples face light up when they get their pups.As long as I can make enough to keep playing I will.

[wems2371]

I think it's interesting that someone thinks they shouldn't be charged more for a well-bred, titled lineage, good conformation, health checks & guarantees, etc puppy than the generic AKC pedi. dog in the paper where someone decided to breed blackie to blondie charge $350, and has no clue. I don't mind paying a breeder who has what I'm seeking in a dog. Why shouldn't they be compensated for their knowledge, experience, training/showing costs in the sire/dam, genetic health checks, etc? They have expenses too. I'm faaaaaar from rich, and will forego all luxuries to save for something I want. Would I buy a cheaper dog--heck yeah, if it was what I wanted. I tend to look for what I want first, without considering price. Once I figure that out, then narrow it down by what I can afford......not the price first. Why is it not a live and let live situation? If you want to sell your pups for $250..........or $1000--go for it. Same thing for what you want to spend. Denise

[Don]

I charge between $1000-$1500 for my pups. Even I find this ridiculously high. So a couple of years ago, I lowered my price in hopes of attracting better homes. Well, it backfired. People called and asked me what was wrong with my pups. Afterall, puppymills get at least $1000 for pups out of parents with no titles at all. If I charge less, people think they are getting an inferior product.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

Did you tell any of these people that you simply thought the prices were to high and you were looking for good homes? Did you offer to put the sire and/or dame down and show what they could do? Just courious. This is not the first time I've heard this and not only from Weimaraner breeders.

[birdsandbirds]

I don't understand why anyone would sell a pup for $250. If you have done your job as a breeder then you most likely have near $200 in every pup if you bred to an outside stud. Why even breed a litter?

I realize that $1000 is a lot of money, but that is the least of your expenses. If that gets you into a breeding that you like, have a good knowledge of what the sire and dam have produced, and future potential then why wouldn't you.

I have culled out $1000 dogs, kept $400 dogs, but I still believe that if you do your homework and buy from the right litter that should produce what you want 1,000 is well worth the time you spent in choosing your pup, and the future time you will spend with your pup

what is a right litter? unless it is a tight line bred litter all pups will be different, even in tight line bred litters there are differences between breeding and littermates. getting champions is a #'s game no matter how you wrap it. all age dogs can come from anywhere i know of a Elhew female that is rolling over 1 mile and laying out there, now tell me that is a commonplace. Freaks will come from anywhere at anytime. How many pups did Bullet produce?? now how many culls did he produce?? a "secret "a whole lot more culls than Ch's.. NO DOG will produce great dogs all the time no matter what culls are more common than high end dogs. I will take quantity over a big named stud dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Dave Quindt]

And now we know why the average family isn't trialing and why the numbers are down. We are talking a rich mans game and I do mean game. Spend the money Dave talks about and there still isn't a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Ezzy

Numbers down? Where?

Retriever field trials are the most expensive hunting dog game to play, with retriever hunt tests not a ton cheaper. The retriever folks are struggling with entries; not a lack of entries but how to manage the huge numbers of entries they do have. There is talk of limiting the number of dogs each pro can enter per trial, or running amateur-only trials because they can't get enough help to hold trials that can handle all of the entries.

The retriever hunt test folks run what they call their Master National; a invitational type hunt test for AKC Master Hunters. Dogs qualify by being a MH AND having passed 5 of 7 (or 8 total) MH tests in a year. Every dog has to requalify every year. Dogs that pass get nothing more than a normal MH pass to their record; the Master National pass is an unofficial title. The entry fee is $300. They keep raising the qualifications, but this year they've got 405 qualified dogs! For a hunt test!

Lots of folks working side jobs, extra hours, running "lean and mean" in their household budgeting to make it to that event. Just because someone can afford something others can't, doesn't mean they are "rich". Rich people play field trials, not hunt tests.

You are right, they are "games". But those games are the best (and only effective) way to objectively judge breeding stock and training methods. And I'll bet those 405 dogs see more wild birds every year than any random group of 405 untested "meat dogs".

[Ryan Baumann]

And now we know why the average family isn't trialing and why the numbers are down. We are talking a rich mans game and I do mean game. Spend the money Dave talks about and there still isn't a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Ezzy

Numbers down? Where?

Retriever field trials are the most expensive hunting dog game to play, with retriever hunt tests not a ton cheaper. The retriever folks are struggling with entries; not a lack of entries but how to manage the huge numbers of entries they do have. There is talk of limiting the number of dogs each pro can enter per trial, or running amateur-only trials because they can't get enough help to hold trials that can handle all of the entries.

The retriever hunt test folks run what they call their Master National; a invitational type hunt test for AKC Master Hunters. Dogs qualify by being a MH AND having passed 5 of 7 (or 8 total) MH tests in a year. Every dog has to requalify every year. Dogs that pass get nothing more than a normal MH pass to their record; the Master National pass is an unofficial title. The entry fee is $300. They keep raising the qualifications, but this year they've got 405 qualified dogs! For a hunt test!

Lots of folks working side jobs, extra hours, running "lean and mean" in their household budgeting to make it to that event. Just because someone can afford something others can't, doesn't mean they are "rich". Rich people play field trials, not hunt tests.

You are right, they are "games". But those games are the best (and only effective) way to objectively judge breeding stock and training methods. And I'll bet those 405 dogs see more wild birds every year than any random group of 405 untested "meat dogs".

I'll bet right 90% of the time. But I will put the money where my mouth is that I have the pictures to prove my meat dog';s successes. I am breeding right in the heart of some of the toughest hunting in the states and bet i can produce the pictures in fresh print. The 2007 season. There is a real difference between the hunter and wanna be. I don't have time for junk or long shots so i breed my own!!! Its working real well and one is in the heart of trial country sleeping soundly tonight. The rest are filling freezers here in the west.

Ryan.

[Ryan Baumann]

didn't mean to scare you all off.

Ryan.

carry on.

[ezzy333]

You are right, they are "games". But those games are the best (and only effective) way to objectively judge breeding stock and training methods. And I'll bet those 405 dogs see more wild birds every year than any random group of 405 untested "meat dogs".Dave Quindt
Rank: 2X Champion

Dave, you are partially right. Trials and tests are one way to judge a dog but far from the only way. I judge most dogs by what I see and if they have a title it is nice. Titles do tell you something when you can't personally see the dogs. One of the problems with titles is that people only look at the ones that apply to what they like and not to the overall dog. Just look at these threads that have trialers posting and all they can talk about are field titles. The same thread with people who test will look for test titles and the people who show will look for show titles. But the bulk of the people wanting a dog to hunt with don't care about any of them but they do care how the dog hunts. And for them and many of us that is the true test and not the ones made up for our games. I can guarantee you that many more people who call wanting a pup consider field trial breeding a liability than a plus. And in all honesty I think we have asked for some of our problems. When field titles become so important that we either ignore or even downplay any other titles we have lost our ability to actually judge a dog or make an effort to improve the breed. We may improve one facet but many time at the expense of other qualities that make up each of our breeds.

Most of the posts seem to be from trialers and pups that will perform well enough to win in some of their games may be rare enough that people will pay huge prices. However, the average family wanting a hunting dog is not going to pay those prices and rightfully so. This is where the small breeder fits in when he breeds his female to the real good male down the street that he saw and was impressed with in the field. And the pups produced will in all likely hood be really nice hunting dogs that people will buy enjoy and come back for more when the time comes.

I see the people in each venue trying to improve the ability of their dogs to perform in that venue. But it is darnhard to find anyone that is really improving the breed or even trying to. Its a great talking point but we let our interest overshadow what it really takes to improve a breed and we settle for just changing the breed and callinbg it an improvement when the dog wins in whatever we are doing.

Ezzy

[BarkRidge]

So what's the magic price tag that changes a pup from a high-dollar pup that's worth the asking price and the price only a fool would pay? To you, $1k is too high. It is $999? $899? What's the number?

Too me buying a pup, for trialing purposes is a waste of money at any price.

Do you ever take into considering location and local economy? Let's say you are a plumber and I am a plumber; I'm located in TN and you're located in suburban Boston, or Seattle. We both live in 4 bed, 2 bath homes on a half-acre. We both have 15% of our annual income to spend on "fun stuff" (i.e. dogs, hunting etc) Take a guess and what the difference of that 15% is! Take a guess at what the difference is between our annual incomes or the mortgage payments on our homes. To the guy making $45k a year, that $1k pup is out of reach. For the guy making $80k a year, it's a reasonable price.

No I do not take into account location and local economy. As far as I can tell, $1000 is still the same amount of money no matter the income of who possesses it. But I do not spend much time in toilets, just on them.

BarkRidge, you come from the old school AF pointer model which was based on volume; breed 50, cull 45 and get 5 worth trialing. In that model, prices were always low because the expectations that each pup would make the cut were low. That's a fine model, but it's not the only model out there.

The “expectations that each pup would make the cut were low” has not changed. I challenge your figures on a pup worth trialing. I believe it takes 50 to get only 1 worth trialing.

Right now in the Lab FT/HT world repeat breedings of litters that produced mutiple FCs/QAAs/MHs will run up to $5k a pup. Quality derby prospects will run in the $25k range. Now, to you folks paying that kind of money are fools. But to the guy who is going to pay $850+/month for training (not the $350 the pointer guys get) for 10 months a year, and will have 24 months of training in the dog before he knows if he's got a national caliber dog or a hunt test dog, the difference between paying $500 and $3000 for a pup is a drop in the bucket. Keep in mind that it takes 2-3 times as long to train a Lab to to be ready to run that Master Hunter hunt test than it does to train a Pointer to run a broke dog stake. And that's just a hunt test dog! That derby dog for $25k is a STEAL if he's the real thing because you'd have paid $50k+ to go through the 3 or 4 washouts before you've got one that's really got the goods.

I have no idea about Labs. I have absolutely no interest in them. Sorry

Is the $1k pup 10 times as better as the $100 pup? Of course not, but odds but if I'm buying a pup and I know what I want, that $1k pup will have much better odds of meeting my expectations that any $250 pup will. And considering what I'm going to stick into a dog my the time I'm done with him, I'll gladly trade the $750 to get the dog I really want because it's a drop in the bucket.

The price of a pup has NOTHING to do with improving “the odds of meeting your expectations”. That is an example of foolishness. But it is you money and feel free to spend it as you wish.

[Dave Quindt]

The price of a pup has NOTHING to do with improving “the odds of meeting your expectations”. That is an example of foolishness. But it is you money and feel free to spend it as you wish.

Huh? For this to be true, you are saying there is NO relationship between the quality of a breeding and the price put on the litter!

If I'm looking for a dog that's an excellent grouse & woodcock hunting dog, so superior that he is capable of winning cover dog championships then wouldn't my odds be best if I was to buy a pup from a repeat breeding that produced such dogs? And do you think the average price of such a litter is higher or lower than that of two unproven dogs, or of two casual hunting dogs? To even better my odds, should I not purchase a dog from such a litter that produced MULTIPLE dogs of this type, and from parents who have produced multiple dogs of this type in other breedings? What do you think this does to the price of these pups?

Once again, you say that a $1k pup is a foolish purchase. What is the "magic number", the exact dollar figure that a price goes from being foolish to being a good buy?

I guess what we're learning is that anyone who buys a pup at any price above what you've paid for a pup is automatically a fool in your mind?

Too me buying a pup, for trialing purposes is a waste of money at any price.

Pretty odd comment from a guy bragging about his "double bred Lancelot & Miller female summering in the Dakotas right now." That female is the product of generations upon generations of dogs owned by folks who disagree with you.

[tfbirddog2]

OC you said you cant believe why anyone would sell pup for $250, I did to my friends that wanted a pup from my female and the stud I used becuase people out here wont pay $600 to $800 for a pup no matter what the papers say or if they hunt if you ran a add in the local papers and in the Denver paper only three people in bother areas would know names from the papers and still would care and I would still have puppies in a keneel out back and be divorced too.If the breeding would have taken between the two in the spring again folks would have been paying $400 this time and crossing my fingers they would have sold and no been looked over because of the price, I had more 3 different guys from Colorado that wanted to come down on the price or wait till they were 12 or 14 weeks old (what one guy told me), come to find out 2 of the 3 were trialers looking to make a buck or get a cheap one I was asking $300 then.I have seen pups in the paper here that dont have papers nears mine have when it come to that fact and he was asking $600 to $800 and guess what at 10 weeks he had sold 2 for $500 to guys from Denver, and when they were 5 months old he tried to give me 2 that were left, should have taken them they were hit by a car 3 days later.So why $250 or $300 cause that what sells out here if you arent into feeding potlickers forever, dont get into it for money.

[BarkRidge]

Huh? For this to be true, you are saying there is NO relationship between the quality of a breeding and the price put on the litter!

Actually, I never said that. But refer to my previous answer.

If I'm looking for a dog that's an excellent grouse & woodcock hunting dog, so superior that he is capable of winning cover dog championships then wouldn't my odds be best if I was to buy a pup from a repeat breeding that produced such dogs? And do you think the average price of such a litter is higher or lower than that of two unproven dogs, or of two casual hunting dogs? To even better my odds, should I not purchase a dog from such a litter that produced MULTIPLE dogs of this type, and from parents who have produced multiple dogs of this type in other breedings? What do you think this does to the price of these pups?

What you want to pay.

But the price of a litter does not have anything to do with a dog winning at the open level.

Once again, you say that a $1k pup is a foolish purchase. What is the "magic number", the exact dollar figure that a price goes from being foolish to being a good buy?

I guess what we're learning is that anyone who buys a pup at any price above what you've paid for a pup is automatically a fool in your mind?

"We're learning"...... Are you more than one person ??????

'The exact figure" ......... I will try another way. If you are wanting a dog, with a certain breeding, I would expect to pay the going rate for that breeding, if i was not buying the dog for the purposes of trying to win at the open level. BUT, I do look for a dog that can do as stated previously, and puppies can not tell me that.

[Better Birddogs]

The idea that a 1000 is going to get you a better pup then 400 is ludicrous. This idea is what led the whole idea of "the owner" in the trial community. "The owner" is a person with limited dog knowledge who has unlimited pockets to finance the "prospects" of the world but I digress. You could buy any pup on Miller's place that was for sale for 500. I guarantee that Miller's culls were better then most peoples stuff. The folks who sell pups for a pile of money dislike the puppy mills the most but what you fail to realize is that your 1000 pups are what drive the backyard breeder. The average everyday guy is not going to pay 1000 for a pup. Even if that guy wants to trial hes going to look a cheap litter and take his chance there. If people would lower there prices on pups you would squash the backyard breeder. The idea that if you bring your prices down people will question your quality is rediculous. Maybe in the versatile breed world.


And yes Ezzy I see the same 8-9 guys at every trial I go to. You're correct.

BB

[wems2371]

If you, other breeders, or your breed in general is pumping out 50 dogs in hopes of getting one good one (to your standards), then it's no doubt that either you can't get a higher price or the "culls" aren't worth more. You've flooded your market. By the way, what kind of homes are the 49 culls finding, since it's all about the numbers? Denise

[Duke82]

I got my EP for free from a old guy that had one left over. He got to be 12wks old and he said the phone calls stopped and said if you want him he is yours. He has more bird drive then I have ever seen in a bird dog, granted I have not seen a ton of bird dogs. You can not totaly determine what a puppy will be like just from his parents. Look at your selfs are you all spitting image of you parents. It does not work that way its how you were raised is what determines you. Physically features blue eyes and blond hair that can be determined before you are born. But not how you will act around people when you grow up (Like how a dog will act around birds).

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Far too many misonceptions being espoused as truth here. What pup is worth $1,000? The pup from the two litters I have had in the past 4 years, total of 12 dogs. Each was "worth" the $1,000. If a person calls me and his first question is..."how much?" I tell him we have no reason to talk any further. Go to the paper and buy a $300 pup from "Clown lines", with eye problems, thyroid problems, hip problems, unproven parents with Clown as the great grandfather, a pup that has no bird sense, but go right ahead. Or, the $1,000 pup that has parents that are Field Champions, are hunted every year on wild birds, who are steady to wing and shot proving their trainability, were winning as young dogs, have tons of style, you see them in the field and on point, you can see other older dogs by and out of these parents at the kennel, with OFA Excellent certification, DNA, hips/thyroid/eyes all tested, hard charging at 8,9,10 years old, with proof in their limited breedings to have produced many winners, not just 1 out of 500 hit in the head puppies.

Do some breeders buy pups, please don't give me the "so and so doesn't need to buy pups" argument. You have 40 litter a year, 500 pups, you hit all but 495 in the head and claim your a successful breeder? Please, learn how the world operates. Some of us have limited breedings, our pups are hour champions, national placements, Field Champions, and at worst are dang nice wild bird dogs.

Spending any amount of money on a trial prospect is foolishness? Won't dignify that comment with a response, other than to say, wake up.

No Barkride, it does not take 50 to get one worth trialing, it involves sire and dam that are producers, that lines have proven to cross well many times or linebreeding properly, putting pups in the right homes, with the right opportunities, NOT killing 'em until you get the 1% that is worth the money. You've got it DEAD backwards.

I bought the last pup from a recent breeding of two multiple hour champions, excellent producers, great sire, dam, great grandparents, quality great grandparents. He was the last pup of the litter, but I also knew the lineage and the production records. He has been run off horse now around 20 times, has seen 6 coveys of wild birds, has been run off 4 wheeler around 20 times, has been put on only around 10 pen birds and amazingly he is one heck of a nice dog. I must be a great dog trainer!! He is only 8 months and he will make a trial dog. Didn't have to hit a pup in the head for him to work out. Can't believe it.

Some seem to think that trial are the ONLY way to prove dogs. Be assured, trials prove trainability, prove athleticism, etc. but multiple breedings and winning percentages of get and grandget prove dogs!!

Bottom line...as the old axiom says, "if you have to ask how much", you can't afford it!! Get back on the porch!!

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Denise, what "homes", they are all in holes in the grounds, at best.

[PowerPoint]

I AGREE 100%!!!! And dont get me on my Elhew soapbox...$800-1000 for a 7 wk old pup with no champions in at least two generation?!?!? someone should have their head examined for spending that.I dont doubt they are "nice" pups.Maybe Im just not yuppie enough,and dont get it...And Maybe.. Id of paid that if Wehle himself would have bred the pup,and handed it to me himself,just to say I did it...