What is a back yard breeder?

[ezzy333]

Backyard breeder is anyone who breeds their dog in the backyard. My neighbors thought it was good that I did it that way.

Ezzy

[wems2371]

That's a tough one for me. Someone like Ezzy is probably breeding great dogs, yet is still humble enough (or looks at it matter-of-fact) to call himself a backyard breeder. I wouldn't put Ezzy in that category (or you). I tend to put more of a negative connotation on "backyard breeder", which for me is that the person isn't putting their best foot forward with intent/research/responsiblity in breeding the best that they can, whether it be one mating a year or 10. I don't judge it on number of dogs, but more along how much effort they've put in and how much quality they get out. Maybe I should change my view and call them "horrible breeders" instead..........at least there wouldn't be any misunderstanding that! Denise

[Karen]

I think many people use the term "backyard breeder" when in fact they are referring to hobby breeders.

I agree with your definition Denise. Breeders who don't do health clearances, who don't support their puppy buyers past their driveway, who won't take a dog back, who become a burden on shelters and rescue groups are backyard breeders to me.

[topher40]

I think many people use the term "backyard breeder" when in fact they are referring to hobby breeders.

I agree with your definition Denise. Breeders who don't do health clearances, who don't support their puppy buyers past their driveway, who won't take a dog back, who become a burden on shelters and rescue groups are backyard breeders to me.

That is what drives me nuts! I really dont understand why a guy needs so many "health clearances" like heart, lungs, hips, eyes, toenails, skin, gums, thyroid, coat, the list goes on and On! If people only did this much research into something that MIGHT outlive them, like their children! These animals are not intended to outlive us so what do all the "clearances" really do? Why do we need them? I know I know, the obvious reason is to make sure we are all getting the best bang for the buck and dont incur any bumps in the road. I also know that other breeds have inherent problems with certain health concerns, and I dont have a problem with those clearances, so I aint no dummy and know the reasons behind some of them . If you are looking at a breed that NEEDS health clearances you might want to consider a different breed! :roll: ( That ought to get a reaction )
The thing that really burns me is when I get a guy that calls me interested in one of my EP pups ( since thats all I deal in ) wanting to know what guarantees I provide with the pup. I tell them all that I guarantee is its the pup, breeding, age, sex, that we spoke about and in generally good health when they pick them up. Sorry but this just burns my buns! Now if a guy calls me a year later and says the dog has cancer or something of the sort I am more than willing to replace the pup or atleast do everything to make the buyer happy. If that makes me a backyard breeder then so be it..........

I am now stepping off my soap box

[wems2371]

The hip grades of excellent, good and fair are within normal limits and are given OFA numbers. This information is accepted by AKC on dogs with permanent identification (tattoo, microchip) and is in the public domain. Radiographs of borderline, mild, moderate and severely dysplastic hip grades are reviewed by the OFA radiologist and a radiographic report is generated documenting the abnormal radiographic findings. Unless the owner has chosen the open database, dysplastic hip grades are not in the public domain

http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html

POINTER (evaluations January 1974 through December 2007)
Registry Rank Evaluations Percent Abnormal Percent Normal
CARDIAC N/A ---- 8 -------- 0.0------ 100.0
ELBOW 83---- 107-------- 0.9 ------ 99.1
HIPS 103 ---- 1232 -------- 8.0------ 91.2
PATELLA N/A ---- 1 -------- 0.0------ 100.0
THYROID N/A---- 4 -------- 0.0 ------ 100.0

If I did my math right, that equals 98 dogs out of 1232 evaluated showed signs of dysplastic hips. You might say that's a relatively low number of dogs evaluated during that time period, but I as an observer, have no reason not to believe that the numbers may not be consistent with more dogs evaluated. I can only go with the evidence presented to me. I don't need to see every test under the sun done--only the relevant ones. I'm not keen on gambling, so if I were buying a pointer--I'd like to see a hip cert before I hand over my hard earned money............ Denise

[Rick Hall]

A "backyard breeder" is anyone who breeds fewer litters than the breeder using the term, and a "puppy mill" is anyone who breeds more litters than the breeder using the term.

[Triple R]

Sometimes I get a little confused with all of the remarks about only breeding to improve on your breed. But you always see someone breeding there good OLE hunting dog to someone else's dog who has proven himself in field trials, hunt test, etc and then make the statement that they are breeding to improve there breed, are they really? :roll: So does that make them backyard breeders? I'm not trying to start any kind of argument I just think that this happens alot and no one really questions those kinda breedings.
I had a litter of gsp about 2 years ago this was my first and only litter and I only done this because I had so many friends and family that wanted a gsp for a family pet. All of the pups went to wonderful homes and are well taking care of, so does that make me a bad guy because I done this?

[Don]

I'm sure it's probably happened but I wonder how many owners of top knotch studs would turn down a big stud fee because the female wasn't up to their standards? I guess I mean, how many would admit they bred to what they concidered a lesser female?

[Sharon]

You could probably count on one hand the number of people whose setter breedings have any hope of improving the standard. JMO

[Rick Hall]

I'm sure it's probably happened but I wonder how many owners of top knotch studs would turn down a big stud fee because the female wasn't up to their standards? I guess I mean, how many would admit they bred to what they concidered a lesser female?

There are those who are careful about what their studs are bred to in order to avoid a bad reputation for pups with the bitch's shortcomings being associated with their studs.

But the flip side of your question would be, "Is the breed better off if the inferior bitch is then, instead, bred to a poorer stud?"

[kninebirddog]

The TERM BACKYARD BREEDER..is given to an UNEDUCATED breeding someone just throwing two dogs of hopefully the same breed with no concern or regards to if the dam and Sire have the desired traits for which the breed should have and the only concern is in to producing puppies to sell

Hobby Breeder is someone who does put forth effort in to a QUALITY breeding


PUPPY MILL is someone who only cares about filling a market whether they have 1 female or 100 and no care to anything about the breed

[ezzy333]

The TERM BACKYARD BREEDER..is given to an UNEDUCATED breeding someone just throwing two dogs of hopefully the same breed with no concern or regards to if the dam and Sire have the desired traits for which the breed

This catches a lot of breeders who don't think of themselves as a backyard breeder I think. And some of those people will go to any length to justify their breeding program.

I think this goes to many if not most breeders since most admit they are breeding for one purpose and any other purpose is a waste of time, politically controled, or hurts the breed.

Ezzy

[zzweims]

I mostly agree with everyone's description of a BYB, especially knine. The guy who just puts two dogs of the same breed together without a thought to health clearances, standards etc. is a BYB. They don't know what it takes to 'improve' the breed, but sometimes they get lucky. I've seen some decent dogs that came from backyard breedings. I've also seen some dreadful dogs that came from good breeders who put forth every effort. Sometimes, sh*t happens.

The BYBs generally don't bother me. They are the guys with a good huntin dawg who just want a pup like mom. Most breed very rarely and usually not for profit. Plus, everyone has to start somewhere, and if most of us breeders were honest, we'd admit that we too started from a place of ignorance.

We all know puppymills, and Jonh Q. Public is becoming aware of them too. But there is another catagory of breeder that scares me far more than puppymills and BYBs. I'm not sure what to call them---'mini-mills?' They are the ones with the slick websites. They buy their breeding stock from good breeders, mostly by hoodwinking them, so they can brag about "multiple champions in the pedigree!" They do all the basic health checks and boast about "pups raised in our home!" What they don't advertise is that they neither hunt nor compete with their dogs. (how, I wonder, do they know what a good hunting dog is?) They have several litters a year and breed the snot out of their bitches. They are only in it for the profit.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[kninebirddog]

zzweims BINGO Mini Mill thts a great one

BYBMM .....

it isn't about where they let two dogs take natures course it is the mentality ...

It is about the lack of real thought that goes in to having a litter of pups

people think breeding that because a dog has papers it makes it worth breeding

They think people will come calling them all hours for those papered puppies they do not give any thought to what will they do when those pups are 18 weeks old and they have only sold maybe half the litter...then what..stand on a street corner with a cardboard box sign puppies for sale

or dump those pups on the local shelter or rescue program

with the internet today more thought should go in to litters as ...it is easier for a person to pick a litter from someone who takes the extra care for a quality litter versus one that doesn't

[ezzy333]

Don't know how we have so many cynical people in our midst but we sure do. Our breeds have continued to exist and do quite well with all of the breeders that you want to be worried about for years. The people who scare me are the ones that promote themselves as responsible breeders who only interest is improving the breed and then talk about breeding to dogs that don't even conform to the breed standards The one dimensional breeders are what has put every breed in trouble. In the Brits, we have people who breed strictly for trial wins no matter the size or conformation of the dog and we have people who breed strictly for conformation and pay no attention to hunting instincts. And now we have people breeding for other venues and what we end up with are big oversize dogs, little dogs, or dogs that look good but are short in hunting instincts or abilities. Then we have the recent imports that are different colors and many that lack style or conformation. And we even justify poor health standards if it gets in the way occasionly. And we see the same thing in other breeds as well. And all this time everyone is preaching breed improvement. Meanwhile the BYB is still just breeding decent hunting dogs and providing them and their neighbors with nice dogs at a reasonable price.

I really think the people who worry everyone are all of the breeders other than yourself since you know everyone has a different opinion of what the breed needs and few if any are really breeding the best dogs that meet all of the standards.

Ezzy

[Karen]

Thank you Ezzy.

[markj]

Or the breeder slips in a pointer to a GSP just to win or get a high tail set, didnt used to belive that stuff but am finding it is true. Some will do anything to "win" mans ego can be soooo huge....

Kinda down about that, going another way soon. Just going to hunt my dogs and forget about the games people play.

[Triple R]

Very well put Ezzy

[Ayres]

Ezzy, I agree with a lot of what you say but I think we're squabbling over a term and not over a principle. What you term as a "backyard breeder" is something good. Then you go on to lamblast those who breed for one dimension or don't think to take care of other things such as health, conformation, hunting, style, etc. as a complete package.

What you're lamblasting is what others seem to term as a "backyard breeder". Nobody is disagreeing that those things are bad - they're just saying that's what they call it. You may call it something different. Really, we can call these things anything we want, but, for the most part, when someone talks about a "backyard breeder" it is in a negative context.

A rose by any other name...

[ezzy333]

Aryes,

You have have come up with exactly what I was saying. The definition that most people give as a BYB, and it is negative, is exactly what most of the people on this board are doing and I doubt if any of them think they are BYB's.

In actuality there is no such thing, but rather is just a negative term used to downgrade other breeders who they think are not as smart, hard working, or capable as they are. Proof of it is the way any venue other people partake of are not as good as their own prefered venue, whether it be a different type of field game, conformation shows or just plain old hunting and family companion animals.

I could go back and quote many examples but I think eveyone is aware of the posts that have been made in just the last couple of months that would fit exactly what I have noted. And almost without exception they are made by the people who are trying to sell us how principled they are as dog breeders.

Ezzy

[Karen]

Yeah, there's a "breeding police" or two on this board.

[zzweims]

Hello. My name's Aline, and I'm a Backyard Breeder.

Oh wait---This isn't BYBs Annonymous!? Nevermind.......

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[Karen]

Aline, you're a HOOT!

[zzweims]

I really think the people who worry everyone are all of the breeders other than yourself since you know everyone has a different opinion of what the breed needs and few if any are really breeding the best dogs that meet all of the standards.

Ezzy

This is a very good point. Breeders who aim to improve the breed, all have different opinions as to what constitutes 'improvement.' Even those aiming for dual champions, disagree with one another. So in a sense, we are all 'backyard breeders.'

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[kninebirddog]

12 step program


Birds first

a dog that can hunt all day and is a joy to watch..is a dog that is in good form for the most part


saddly a dog that is great in the field is not the base to what is an expressor of the breed when it comes to the ring as a lot of what does have show titles can't last 5 minutes in the field so yes there are some that accuse some pro show handler for cheapening the DC title by showing certain dogs under certain judges when they make a hugh show circuit ....but is it all bad when it is a field dog that is squeaking in for the DC and not the show champion sqeaking in as many strong show bred dogs will not fair well at all in a field trial

I am not speaking of the true dual planned dogs ...So lets keep that thought in context

I think by the field dogs squeaking in it has put more pressure on the total show breedings to change a bit and step up to a more field looking dog that has field movement not some hackney gait out in the field

yes that should be another post but...truely think about that aspect

Does the true term BYB even begin to think of either

[ezzy333]

saddly a dog that is great in the field is not the base to what is an expressor of the breed when it comes to the ring as a lot of what does have show titles can't last 5 minutes in the field so yes there are some that accuse some pro show handler for cheapening the DC title by showing certain dogs under certain judges when they make a hugh show circuit ....but is it all bad when it is a field dog that is squeaking in for the DC and not the show champion sqeaking in as many strong show bred dogs will not fair well at all in a field trial

Does this prove my point. Its always the other people who are wrong. Show people show only under certain judges but field trial people show under all judges I suppose. Lots of political stuff in the show ring but thank God the field venues are pure as the new born baby.

Truth is a dog is a dog and will be judged to the individual judges interpretation of the standards in the show ring and the field trials. Judges do vary and it is smart to show your dog under a judge that interupts the standards similiar to what you do in both venues. However, the rules make it impossible to get a title under one judge or even two. Dogs don't squeak in to anything. They go in as strong and proud as they can and it takes some longer and more shows or trials than it does for others for numerous reasons. And we all know a dog capable of winning in the show ring is as capable of hunting all day as the dog that is so bad it can't compete in a show. Conditioning is what gets the all day hunter and not breeding. I surely hope everyone refuses to show in conformation and performance under a judge they don't feel is interupting the standards correctly. Thats the only way we get rid of poor judges and keep the good judges.

I do agree the better Brit breeders of today have been able to keep the dogs in field condition winning in the ring and working at keeping their trial dogs within the standard so they can compete and win. This is what has kept the breed the leader in producing Dual Champions. Hopefully we can keep them that way if we just keep pressure on the field people to keep their dogs within the standard of the breed and we can keep the show people from breeding for more and longer coats. If I remember right that is why there is a standard for the breed. Its the guideline that people need to follow when breeding if they are making any effort at all of improving a breeds and theirperformance in the field.

By the way what do you consider an improvement and not just a change?

Ezzy

[Gordon Guy]

I saw some definitions of puppy seller once, I believe it was on this website, here's what I remember

Backyard Breeders = People who have a dog that they breed to their buddies dog because they want to make some money with no forthought into genetics or health concerns. Having a litter as often they can or until they determine it's too much work. They sell all pups to who ever shows up

Hobby Breeders = People who may have a dog or 2 of a specific breed that hunt and or occasionally test/trial their dogs that consider health and performance issues before the raise a litter. With an eye toward making better dogs. They have a litter once every year or every other year keeping one or two for themselves. Selling to people that meet their expectations

Professional breeders = people that are into one or a few breeds that campaign their dogs or train dogs on a part time or full time basis and make money at selling puppies. They may develope a specific line of dogs whether it be for show or field or both, and have built a reputation. They have to consider health and performance issues or else they will not stay in business. They sell a couple litters or more a year, keeping whole or a portion of the litters to evaluate and selling the rest.

Puppy Mills = Raising many breeds of dogs to be sold at pet stores, assuming there's no consideration given to performance and health issues. Selling lots of dogs, or whole litters with no consideration of who buys them, for a profit only.

There are variations but this is what I remeber in a nut shell

[Gordon Guy]

Ezzy,

The people who scare me are the ones that promote themselves as responsible breeders who only interest is improving the breed and then talk about breeding to dogs that don't even conform to the breed standards The one dimensional breeders are what has put every breed in trouble.

You mentioned conforming to breed standards is the way to go. insinuating that breeders should be striving to meet the standard in order to improve the breed. With Brits you MAY have an valid argument, The breed standard appears to be focused on performance. But with other breeds of dogs you may be out in left field. Look at the breed standard for English Setters, Irish Setters or Gordons. Their standard calls for dogs much larger than what I and many other hunters consider a working field dog. In the setter breeds a show dog stands a VERY small chance in placing in any competitive event. I'm being generous when I say VERY small chance. The field bred dogs offer more of the "Wow" factor, more desire and more athletic abilities that judges and the majority of hunters are looking for. It's the field bred dogs that take the cake everytime. So for some hunting breeds, keeping their ultimate purpose of finding and pointing game in mind, a dog that meets the breed standard doesn't neccessarily equal a quality hunting dog (Using perfromance events as the measuring stick).

Yes there are some dual dogs within those breeds but when competing against their own in the AKC Specific Breed Championships 99% of the time the field bred dogs (the ones that would get laughed out of a show ring) get the ribbon. So which ones are better bird dogs?

So.. do those breeders that strive to breed a better bird dog, regardless of the breed standard, have the best interest of the breed in mind? I don't think we can answer that with a yes or a no.

[wems2371]

Gordon Guy--I like the breeding definitions you posted.

Yes, I'm a cynic. Had too much of it in my face for too long, having a now distant childhood bestfriend who has ALWAYS been a backyard breeder. If the animal has a uterus or testicals, she will breed it. I watched repeated litters of cocker spaniels bred, when the first mating produced several pups that developed some kind of cataract condition. Her family didn't bother to take the dogs to the vet to find out what kind of genetic condition might me going on, they just bred a couple more times I guess to prove there was a problem. Then she bought a golden retreiver at a pet fair, of all places--with the intent of breeding it. By age two it was diagnosed with the hips of a twelve year old dog. Oh, she did spay it, but not before the beagle got her and some mutts were born. Then there's that male beagle that was purchased out of the newspaper for her father's birthday a couple years ago. Well she ran into someone that had a free female beagle.............so you know how that story goes. I believe she's had 3-4 litters from those two. They barely sell, but it's just enough cash to keep her at it. They're all AKC, so she seems to think that means they're worth something. She even spoke once to me about a year ago about trying to breed "Puggles". She only has a litter or two a year, but it still makes me sick.........and I know she's not the only one out there doing this type of thing. She does feed her dogs well and interacts with them, but still definitely comes under my definition of backyard breeder. She might be one end of the spectrum.......but IMO she and others like her contribute to the dilution of quality of breeds, multiply breed genetic issues, take potential homes from rescue dogs and create potential rescue dogs.

I think my time on the couch is up. Denise

[wchua24]

well that says everything..thanks for defining that. for me my only idea was byb are breeders without supporting papers for their dogs.

[markj]

I sure m glad my female out of show ch lines didnt know that, she was the best hunter I ever did own. Ch with Sh back, was hege-haus line bred out of a kennel in central city nebr. Wish I could find that guy again.......

The hege-haus dogs in the ped were KS dogs, maybe that had a bit to do with it?

FT isnt the end all of dog land. There are a lot of show dogs have great backgrounds, I cannot belive the hunt has been bred out of them. Why didnt that GSP won the big one go on point right there on the floor?

I think people want to think badly about other people and demonstrate it in the way they label others. Gossip is a bad thing I was taught.... I for one dont want a dog runs to the other side of the field or ranges out 200 to 300 yards... I want one that finds them birds. I had a dog many years ago I could walk along a fence line, wind in his face, he would want to go in right where them birds was sitting. Shot me a lot of limits over him. Natural point, never heard of a check cord then, he had it right off the bat. He kinda trained me to belive in him, follow him, let him do the work, I got to shoot the bird and thats what it is all about. Not how many planted birds he could find. so I could pop a cap gun and get back on the horsey but then I comefrom a long line of hunters. We were not wealthy so every shot counted.

[zzweims]

Ezzy:

You had me on your previous posts, but lost me completely on the last one. When was the last time you hunted behind a show pointer, setter, or Weimaraner? Most of those dogs you could 'condition' until the cows came home and they still wouldn't find a bird, let alone point and retrieve it. Field dogs hunt because they were BRED for it. Show dogs don't, because they weren't. If someone wants pointer, setter or weim, he'd have a better shot of finding a decent hunting partner with a byb dog than a show bred dog.

As for your comment that field judges are as pure as a newborn baby, all I can say is

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[PAHunter]

If you can't figure out what a back yard breeder is--- well I guess you deserve what you get!!!

[prairiefirepointers]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Robert Wehle was a backyard breeder at the begining? Everyone has to start somewhere, and look what he did. He started with cows long before he jumped into Pointers. Who woulda thought?
The key is to continuely strive for improvement and grow with your successes. I started with nothing once too, nobody to help me, no windfall of mony from mama and daddy to finance my desires. I think I'm doing okay. If someone were to call me a backyard breeder.. Fine. I'd just say I sure sell alot of fine dogs to better people. JMO
PFP.