Brown Growler

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prairiefirepointers
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Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:05 pm

I have a 4 year old English Pointer who we call Brownie, brown, brown dog, and now 'The Brown Growler'
The thing is, She had her first litter of pups early this spring, and prior to this was a standoffish, quiet dog, but very well tempered. NOW.. She is 'The Brown Growler" to strangers or percieved threats in her mind I guess. I mean she can be the living satan when she goes off. She is like VElCRO to me. Loves daddy to death, we have another Pointer (my Stud) and a Lab in the house, plus my wife. All that's fine. If someone knocks at the door or she see's something outside, LOOK OUT.

Another Weird thing she does is lets (only does this with Males) people into our home, befreinds them, lets them pet and make over her. I dare you to turn your back and head for the door. She will go absolutely into full kill mode. She has hit the glass in the stormdoor so hard when our elderly neighbor came over to bring baked goods that she violently knocked it ajar and into him almost knocking him off our front porch. We got her curtailed before severe violence ensued, but I remember me dragging her by the collar backward and her just being like a freaking Poltergeist or something...
WOW. Any Ideas Why?
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Yawallac
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by Yawallac » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:37 pm

...because a stranger snuck in and docked one of her pups tails maybe?! :mrgreen:

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:58 pm

If I was to dignify the aforementioned conotation with a reply it would be abrubtly removed. So why bother..
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by topher40 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:45 pm

I dont see anything wrong with what Ross said, Maybe I missed something?? :lol: I would say that the hormones got her and she has changed for the worse because of it. Not uncommon. :wink:
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:53 pm

It was an inside kind of thing.. long story.
Yeah.. I think you're right. The hormones got her, but I can't even explain how bad she used to get.
I have since curtailed it some of the time, but I would'nt want to be a catbuglar (do they steal cats?) and come thru our door to meet her. Its kinda funny to me, but not the wife. ha ha. I always kid around with my wife and tonight she smacked me on the leg as she walked by. I yelled out (just playin around) and Brown shot off the couch and into my lap donning a "DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN" look to her. I cracked up.. The wife, not so much.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by topher40 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:07 pm

LOL!! My thats one of the reasons all my dogs are outside in the kennel. Sometimes the wife thinks the dogs like me more than she does!
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:25 pm

THE BROWN GROWLER

Image
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by Yawallac » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:25 pm

If I was to dignify the aforementioned conotation with a reply it would be abrubtly removed. So why bother.
My post was intended to make you laugh. LIGHTEN UP!! :D

The Brown Dog looks GOOOOOOOD!!

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:37 pm

Ha ha.. thats cool.
Ya you can tell from her pic she has a very serious 'air' to her. Toughest dog I've ever seen. Had a stick get poked clear through next to her eye just missing it (white side) Never even let out a whelp. Still has never grown hair all the way around it. Adds to her character.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by bobman » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:17 am

neutering affects hormones maybe thats a option
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:46 am

that would be a fine assumption if she was a hermaphrodite. (Dual or ambiguous sex organs) but she's a brood female.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by bobman » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:00 am

she shouldn't be bred again, any dog that shows those traits should be neutered
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by snips » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:01 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:that would be a fine assumption if she was a hermaphrodite. (Dual or ambiguous sex organs) but she's a brood female.
Agree,with Bob, you are breeding temperment as well.
brenda

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:01 am

YAFI
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:12 am

Post-partum depression?

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:27 am

Maybe but I don't think so.. I think several contributing factors play out in her acting out like that.
(1) I bought her as a finished dog touse as my Brood Female. She was a kennel dog and while my wife was away on a business trip I left her in the house overnight (I fell asleep on the couch and forgot to take her out) and she never returned to 'Kennel Life.' She now has it made, Queen Browndog on her queen sized bed in my gunroom, lots of love and affection she had never experienced before and OMG has she taken to me.

(2) It was her 1st litter ever and hormones changed her. She became very protective of her pups. My wife and I could get in the whelping box and pull them out and mess with them at any time, but anyone else it was a different story.

She has chilled out alot compared to what she was like right at first post pregnancy. Still has her moments though. She is just SUPER protective of her new family and her great new life I think. As I type this she is 'rooted' up under my left arm hanging over the side of the computer chair. Loves her daddy.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:30 am

I had a Champion female do the same thing and some of her pups showed a tendancy to have a bad disposition so she was not bred again. Just don't think good dogs are so hard to come by that we even take the chance.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by snips » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:51 am

I do not fault a bitch for protecting pups, with strangers, to a degree. This is natural behavior. I expect immediate family to be allowed. But when pups are done it is her temperment coming to the front. Do not be surprised to find it in pups down the road.
brenda

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by lovesuglydogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:09 am

She is acting protectively of "Her" pack, by simply barking & alerting. Birthing stoked these instincts but Id watch over it & make necessary correction if it escalates.
Bitches often are a little more alert & protective than males in a pack, with males doing the dirty work when push comes to shove.

Thats normal in the German Breeds (Weims/Drahts) & Chessies. For setters, Im not so sure.
Though you could nip it real quickly if you desired to with force compulsion.

I for one, encourage it, probably more than most. You wont steal my dog off the chain or break into my truck.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by rockllews » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:04 am

While it may be normal for a female to be protective of her litter, her current situation shouldn't be construed of as funny. Being a mother affected her hormones and instincts- she was the pack leader, protector, teacher... her pups are gone and she views your family as her pack. She's probably clingy to you and protective of you because she views you as hers, not the other way around- I see this a lot. Your leadership/authority might need increased- she should feel secure enough at home that you will protect her, so that she doesn't have to. Right now, as dominant/top "dog" she thinks she's got to protect your home and you, and I totally understand why you wife doesn't think it's funny that the dog is guarding you from her- that is not acceptable. Dominant temperaments are okay if you can handle them, aggressive temperaments are not. If you've had any experience with the results of aggression like this, you'd know it's a serious matter and unless you do something, someone is bound to get bitten. One can only hope it wouldn't be a child, but an adult is just as bad.

I'd really suggest reading these articles by Ed Frawley (have your wife read them and explain the concepts to your kids). His whole site www.leerburg.com is chock full of info.

http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf
http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf
http://leerburg.com/pdf/theoryofcorrections.pdf
http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithaggressivedog.pdf

Also, when you have people knock/ring the door bell, please make sure you've got control. You might need to have her drag a line, if she won't even adhere to a down/stay, and make her be calm- either sitting/down or standing behind you. Let her see that you're not threatened and very much in charge of the situation. If she's going to be a house dog, she needs to get used to different people coming and going (no matter her hormones... all of us girls deal with that stuff!). And she needs to accept that even your wife has authority over her.

I won't tell you whether or not you should breed the Brown Growler again, but you might keep in touch with the owners of the last litter and make sure they aren't having any aggression-related problems.

Sorry if this was lengthy, redundant, or ???. Good luck in getting control of her aggression.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by lovesuglydogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:10 pm

The hormones will take some time to drop, thats a fact

Aggression can be overcome with obedience.
Down MEANS Down. Stay Means Stay. If I give a Command, I demand it be obeyed. Yes Leadership is the key.

There are dogs alot more serious than Setters, than have true aggression, yet are still a pleasure to own.
The key is obedience.

IMO, Ed Fraweley demonstrates what Moronic is.
This comes from people that have much more distinguished resumes than Mr. Ed.
Ed's only claim to fame is to have bred '350 litters' that have done nothing in the working dog world. Thats 3,000 puppies.
He sells videos & is a 'puppy pimp' or was anyway.
His advice is fine for a novice, but best taken with a grain of salt.

Many books out there, I happen to think Cesar does a decent job & I know the person that trained Cesar, very well.
So I'm comfortable recommending Cesar Milan. Its forced compulsion but will work.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by wems2371 » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:50 pm

Agression can be controlled, but it's not a lot of fun....and I would never even take a second look at a dog with agression, or from a line with even mild agression inherent....unless it was a rescue situation. I have had a rescue lab for 10.5 of her eleven years. She is extremely obedient, as that's where my roots are. She has never been agressive towards us or my family. She has never bitten anyone but is extremely growly/charges on first meetings of persons, and is possessive of our acreage, possessive when in our vehicles, and dominant on first meeting of other dogs. So, it's not a lot of fun when we don't know when the UPS man, gas man, or neighbors are stopping over for a visit. Hard to leave her unattended in the truck during summertime to run in to the store, due to someone maybe reaching in to pet her. Hard when we leave town, and I only have a friend or too that won't be intimidated to walk in her kennel and take care of her. Yes, I can control her when I'm around and it's not even an issue....and yes at times her protectiveness has put me at ease....but IMO now having a dog that loves everyone and everything is a much sweeter way to go.

I don't think it's too funny either. Nip it in the bud quickly. It might just very well be hormones, but I'd still do like others have said, and keep an eye on past/future offspring. There's no need to purposefully breed agression, if that is the case. Denise

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:13 pm

I for one, encourage it, probably more than most. You wont steal my dog off the chain or break into my truck.
Amen to that. First of all (this will PO some people) She is a EP not one of those Setter things. ha ha.
Brown's aggressive temperment flareups are always within the confines of our house. If she's outside and someone comes over she beenlines it to the front door of the porch and remains there. Very standoffish at first. She has never acted out while hunting, training, or hauling her around. If She ever started that behavior she'd get a hands on approach to correction.
She has cooled her jets significantly since her demon pregnancy and post preg days. Anyone who pays attention enough to their dog can tell when they are getting ready to lash out before they start. When she bristles up now or gets that look I scold her and tell her no.. She still barks and growls hideously but then realizes I'm not fooling around and quits.
Its not an issue that she doent mind.. Oh no. My dogs mind empecibly (most of the time) I am one that simply will not accept a disobeyed command that the dog readily knows. It is not a democracy in dog training they get no vote. Its basicly just the funny thing with men she occasionaly does where she befriends them until the go to leave out the door. Then she'd go ape.

However on the other hand. If I am not at home and someone were to come into my yard or knock on my door and she did'nt come unglued I'd get rid of her. I won't have a sissy back down no spine birddog. I guarentee any dog that has the intestinal fortitude to jump on one of my pointers is in for an education.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by lovesuglydogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:34 pm

Some disagree, but I favor a dog & Breed that IS Protective.
I mean... as in bite, IF its master or it is threatened ie the challenge will not back down- an intruder that doesnt heed a warning growl.

Guys have their dogs taken off the chain or stolen from their trucks often.
You read these stories of LOST DOG or STOLEN DOG on the forums
It scares me to death.

I have too much wrapped up in mine and she is a family member.
She is discriminating and wouldnt dare touch a child or lady but will absolutely harm someone who intends harm

To me thats common sense.
Let someone else have their soft dogs that get stolen.
There is a big difference between unwarranted aggression vs Protective/Stable.
We should really speak in those contexts as they are mutually exclusive. Exhibit A,B

Image
Last edited by lovesuglydogs on Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by wems2371 » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:06 pm

Another Weird thing she does is lets (only does this with Males) people into our home, befreinds them, lets them pet and make over her. I dare you to turn your back and head for the door. She will go absolutely into full kill mode. She has hit the glass in the stormdoor so hard when our elderly neighbor came over to bring baked goods that she violently knocked it ajar and into him almost knocking him off our front porch.
Lovesuglydogs--I would call that unwarranted aggression. I'm not here to debate the merits of protectiveness via biting/growling. If you're happy with what you've got--go for it. I assumed from the post that this person was looking for help, and since I have a dog that borders on the line of protective/unwarranted I could relate.
However on the other hand. If I am not at home and someone were to come into my yard or knock on my door and she did'nt come unglued I'd get rid of her.
PFP--I would call that a lawsuit waiting to happen. It seems from your follow up posts that you don't really think you have a problem after all anyway..... Denise

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:25 pm

Not so much as I did.. I was just polling the opinions of others as to what made her so volitile post preg. She was protective sure during Pregnancy but afterwards, say 4 months it was interesting. Now she barks (within the confines of the house or fence) in what I feel is appropriate. Still gets Pissed when my buddy Bristol leaves the house after petting her..??? That is what gets me.

As far as a lawsuit goes.. I'd say I'm not really worried about it. I have a fairly modest sized home and large yard where 2 large pointers and a Lab roam freely via the dog door. The Elect Meter Reader and Gas Company employees come in and go thru the fence No problem. If she were to attack unwarrented It would have already happened. If she does, you can say I told you so, and It's probably a good thing I have so many lawyers in the family. She was just the only female to act this way, but also the only one to go from Kennel Life to a New Home, Living Outside, Living with the Family Inside, Getting Bred and Whelping a litter in a relitively short span. When I bought her the breeder said she would be coming in in a few months.. Try 10 days.... She was bred by my Pointer Stud and then rolls the chain of events within a 90 day period. It was too much too soon. I would have waited till she was acclimated to her new enviroment. BUT.. things don't always pan out that way do they? Can't complain We had an awesome litter of pups.
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by rockllews » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:55 pm

lovesuglydogs wrote: IMO, Ed Fraweley demonstrates what Moronic is.
This comes from people that have much more distinguished resumes than Mr. Ed.
Ed's only claim to fame is to have bred '350 litters' that have done nothing in the working dog world. Thats 3,000 puppies.
He sells videos & is a 'puppy pimp' or was anyway.
His advice is fine for a novice, but best taken with a grain of salt.

Many books out there, I happen to think Cesar does a decent job & I know the person that trained Cesar, very well.
So I'm comfortable recommending Cesar Milan. Its forced compulsion but will work.
Alright- I see where your coming from with Frawley's breeding- I know it's an amount most people are not comfortably with if they do less breeding. I won't contest what he has and hasn't done in his field- I don't have an affiliation with him. :| But I think those articles I suggested reading are still applicable and at least add tools to ones toolbox. Sure, you don't have to agree with everything they might direct (I don't) but he makes a lot of information available and understandable.

And yes, Cesar Milan is another "behavorist" that make it big on TV- there are many more not in the limelight. Some experts are skepticle of him as well :wink: , but I like and have applied some of his techniques. You mention you know his mentor- I'd love to have the name, if you'd pm me. He doesn't exactly give credit on NGC.

To prairiefires... good luck with your EP- she is a handsome dog and if she works for you, good- really. I know some like their dogs to be protective (ours are but without that craziness you spoke of) 8) so I just hope the Brown Growler knows which situations really call for teeth and which don't. I was simply trying to help with what I'd consider unacceptable behavior... didn't know that us setter-things people had dogs that were too soft and spineless :oops: ... I'll sign off on this thread... just had to back up my first post.

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by bobman » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:12 pm

its a well accepted fact that english pointer breeders have long strived to make dog and people aggressive dogs :roll:

Very Macho, we are all impressed, this has got to be the stupidest thing I've seen on a bird dog board.


One thing for sure I'll be sure to remember the traits Praire Fire pointers lines stress.


Rocklews Frawleys techniques work well I've used them on some rescue dogs with good results, Your post was a good post, consider the source of criticism on here.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:49 pm

WTF? I don't even Know Who Ed Fraweley even is so get off your high horse bobo.
DING DING DING!!! Your hitting the nail right on the head! Ya I cross them with Mountain Curr and Kennel them with the Kansas Badgers I also Raise Makes em just right! LMAO

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:24 pm

I can not and will not have an agressive dog in my family. Protective is all nice sounding until your neighbor whom you LIKE is chewed up for trying to bring you a gift. Nope. I have kids, other dogs, and I am not always there to "call my dog off." If a dog was not the slightest bit aggresive UNTIL you commanded it to BE AGGRESSIVE that's perhaps okay, but aggressive until you stop them requires a degree of me being there EVERY single time that is just asking for trouble. AND THE BIGGEST issue is that YOU are protected and the wife is not. If you have children and one accidentally pulls your hair or pinches you and you yell, is the dog going to bite them in the face for you? Protect you against others in your own family? Not acceptable here. My family is a whole and my dogs do not pick who is let in, I do. I am the pack leader here, not my dogs. If they would not let me be pack leader they do not get to stay with us. But the closest I have had is the DD. He is not terrible but has an inclination to be too protective and less willing to accept the whole family equally. He was neutered!! as I just absolutely will not allow that kind of issue to get passed on.

Also is what I find the nicest thing about my male GSP, Jed. He has the absolute best personality in the world!! Easy going, friendly to all. THE BEST! 8)

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Re: Brown Growler

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:53 pm

MTNDOG whatever you think is your opinion, and I have mine. That's what makes a forum go around. Please Never Ever incinuate I don't take care of my wife. I will leave it at that.
When the Neighbor Incident happened she had 5 week old pups in the whelping box here in the front room. I think she percieved it as a threat.. Like I had said She's not lashing out anymore like she was. The only thing now is I think She has a thing for my buddy Bristol, (haha) and gets pissed when he leaves. That's where we are now compared to where we were. MUCH IMPROVED. There were SEVERAL mitigating circumstances that lead to all the aforementioned acts of aggression. Finally either the hormones wore off and or me bustn her butt a few times sunk in. Ya it was ugly, but now it's much better. I don't raise Killers and I don't want wallflowers either.
The point WAS to see if anyone else had experienced a similar situation. Savey?
Jess Stucky
Prairie Fire Pointers & Supply
Pretty Prairie, KS
http://www.prairiefirepointers.com
http://www.prairiefirepointersupply.com
'Distinguished Dogs for the Discriminating Hunter'
Doesn't Your Dog Deserve The Best?

"Add clarity to your life, see through the eyes of a dog"

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mountaindogs
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Location: TN

Re: Brown Growler

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:30 pm

yep,that's a fact, and it is a free country, and as far as my vote goes I will vote to keep it that way. 8)

I like some vocal rucus as far as it goes, but I risk getting bitten at work all the time from dogs that don't know their place at all. Often even their owners can't handle them or even put a muzzle on their own dog, and we have to get them out of the car. Just don't like it one bit me personally, and guess I just see the worst of it and the joking set me off, because that is how those owners often are; laughing and joking about how their dog will bite them (the owners) and everyone else too.

If you want to fix it, I think rockllews had some helpful suggestions, but if you like it then "it ain't broke, don't fix it..."
Best luck.

lovesuglydogs

Re: Brown Growler

Post by lovesuglydogs » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:26 pm

Guys..
I thought this might be misinterpreted. Aggression often is.
I own my breed FOR Protection partly. If not a DD, then a Chessie perhaps. A Chessie isnt a Golden. Not every one wants a Chessie or protective breed. But some wouldnt have it any other way or own another breed.
Not every one desires or has any need for this level of protection, can handle it or wants it. It can be a pain.

Owning a trained Shepherd, Rottweiler, Pitbull, Sheepdog any working dog can be a liability.
So can guns. To each his own, every one has different needs & Demands.
Neighbors dont come by mine unannounced. And Thats what I like. Take it or leave it.

Again, Ive no use for a dog that can be stolen or wont protect its family & Pack.
I have 4 kids under 7. This dog is a house dog with them and totally trustworthy.
100% trustworthy..and lots of hours spent training. Probably more on it that birds.
A dog can absolutely be stable and protective.
The Shepherd & others were bred for that specifically. Herd sheep all day and come back to the masters home to guard it and his family with his life. Very devoted. Very protective. But Americans have now almost ruined the GSD, like most of what we were given... I digress.

Far as Frawley goes..
He claims to have bred '350 litters' No one else in America has done this"
Thats great- NONE of his bitches are tested or tested. Just Honest Eds word.
1 pup became a national competitor. Thats In over 3000 puppies,he had one.
None in International competition.
His site offers some good basic obedience info & its fine for 95% of families.
There are some laughable bits of advice as well regarding training of working dogs. Ill leave it at that.
Cesar Milan is good at what he does. I like him & I recommend him. No magic in it. Dogs arent that comlicated and basic training isnt too difficult in most cases.
Last edited by lovesuglydogs on Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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h20fwlkillr
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:44 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Brown Growler

Post by h20fwlkillr » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:51 am

I agree that the dog should probably not be bred. Pointers should have an even temperment, not an aggressive one.There is a big difference between fearless or protective and aggressive.
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snips
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Re: Brown Growler

Post by snips » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:19 am

One thing I give my bitches when they have new pups is their privacy. When they were in the house they had the Utility room back away from mainstream. Now I have a whelping house in my backyard where they get their privacy. If I bring people in to see pups the bitch goes out while we are with babies. The less you stress a new Mom the better.
brenda

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mtjim
Rank: Junior Hunter
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Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:37 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Brown Growler

Post by mtjim » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:49 am

I simply would not take a chance with a dog like this in my house. Someone will get bit sooner or later. For your sake I hope you have great insurance.
Be wary of the man in the tattered old hunting coat with the bony pointer and the well worn side by side, he'll outshoot you every day.

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rosiesdad
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Location: W. Central Mi

Re: Brown Growler

Post by rosiesdad » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:06 pm

Ask your homeowner insurance agent what happens if you get sued over a dog bite. They will settle and cancel you pronto.
Only two seasons, bird season and getting ready for bird season

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