Friend wants a Drahthaar...

[lovesuglydogs]

I told my wife I was ..."Just going to look at some pups"
I came home 8 hrs later with mine..
Problem solved!

Advantages of a DD over a Lab..(Generalizations of course)
1 Little to no shedding
2 Pointer
3 Endurance
4 Protective (some lines)
5 Hunt Tested & Health Certified
6 Better tracker & More laid back than Trial bred Labs

Disadvantages
1. More Prey drive, more sharp, will 'take out' cats/fur, no questions asked
2 More Protective
3 Slower to mature
4 More difficult to train for a novice, more stubborn, more 'complicated'
5 Not as good marking, no breed is

Both will be very loving & loyal to a family & same in cold tolerance. Thats how I see it
If I only hunted waterfowl..I might opt for Chessie or Lab. But probably not.

[coryf]

Bill, PM sent. I look forward to the hunt

[Petra]

May be I did not pick it up, but, why did your friend choose this breed for his first pointing dog? if it is the looks asimilar dog with a hairy face is the Puddelpointer (sp?), more layed back, family not so intense, a wirehair from Germany will be very intense because that is what they want, a dog is part of the hunting equipment there, most dont have being family friendly high on their requirements for their dogs. (I know I'm generalizing we dont need another tangent subject here) Hunting drive will be very high!!!! or maybe alittle watered down American version ( ditto)that has had more personality requirements at the top of the gene pool. Have you asked your wife to look at all of the choices of dogs and their characteristics and see what her choice would be? Try not to influence her, I'm even curiose to hear what her choice would be.

[lovesuglydogs]

Petra
I also considered a PP before my DD. The waiting list was extensive.

In my research I learned that the PP is probably More wired than DDs. They were created as a foundation using 85 Pointers & 15 Poodles. Ive been around a few pointers. They werent nearly as cooperative or laid back as what i now have.
My uncle has a Pointer, raised it as a house dog. His Door opens-Dog disappears. For days sometimes.
I hear nice things about PPs, but I favor the DD Over the PP for a few reasons. Consistency, Intensity & 'Switch' are but a few..the PP will probably have more field range but not the tracking ability as a general rule.

Gemans felt some things were missing in the PP, in their quest for the ultimate hunting/meat dog, and why they work to create another breed-The DD is overwhelmingly popular as the breed of choice amongst hunters in Germany & Europe now & is the most recent of all the Versatile Breeds. What does that tell you?.
The PP was used as a Foundation breed for the DD, among a handful of others.

For this fellow, a British Lab (Wild Rose Kennel) or WPG / Griffon might also be a reasonable choice-along with a PP, or DD, but if he does his homework with lines & visits various kennels to observe dogs, a DD will suit him just fine, imo.

[Greg Jennings]

OK, Bill. You like your DD's. We have caught the clue.

[lovesuglydogs]

Greg,
I like em all. But what I Really Like, is Quality Control.
I started with GSPs & Setters.
Less birds in Ohio since '76 as you well know, and I started doing more waterfowl hunting, had an occasional deer I needed help with & ended up going 'ugly'.

Im not breed blind. I know what I have & dont have.
I like the specialists. Alot. Love hunting with them. And I recommend them when fitting.
I also like the other versatiles, especially GSPSs & recommend them when fitting.

There is so much anecdotal 'BS' & misconception about the DD breed & Club, that I think its appropriate to counter distortions with truth.
Thats all I try to do.
Boards such as these can be informative but also misleading. I try to be as objective as possible, as I was once where this person was. Lots of questions & lots of advice.
I always say Seeing is believing.

[TheShadow]

May be I did not pick it up, but, why did your friend choose this breed for his first pointing dog? if it is the looks asimilar dog with a hairy face is the Puddelpointer (sp?), more layed back, family not so intense, a wirehair from Germany will be very intense because that is what they want, a dog is part of the hunting equipment there, most dont have being family friendly high on their requirements for their dogs. (I know I'm generalizing we dont need another tangent subject here) Hunting drive will be very high!!!! or maybe alittle watered down American version ( ditto)that has had more personality requirements at the top of the gene pool. Have you asked your wife to look at all of the choices of dogs and their characteristics and see what her choice would be? Try not to influence her, I'm even curiose to hear what her choice would be.

well he really likes the idea of a dog that can be versatile in upland and waterfowl. Although his main focus is upland game he does dabble in waterfowl once a year. Myself I like upland a lot more than sitting in a blind, doing the calls (which I'm not that great at), waiting... i like to be on the move, walking and exploring the fields and country. So does my friend. He also loves the coat of the DD.

He also likes the idea of a dog that is more cautious to strangers. He loves labs but at times wishes they were more on the cautious side vs running up to anyone that shows a treat/food! Well that just goes with the breed.

He likes the idea of high prey drive BUT I'm not sure if he honestly can control it if this will be his 2nd personal hunting dog. Mind you he was use to a flushing dog for upland and now he wants a pointer. A totally different game than what he was brought up with. He grew up with labs and his father used a lab to hunt upland game although he said it was not trained well but...

Everything he reads/hears about the DD he really respects the "honesty" of the breed and the "pureness" of the breed. I have to agree on that as well. DD owners really know their stuff and breeders are truly keeping the breed "clean" of any defects vs labs which are really messed up and all over the place.

His wife said she'd love another lab.

The kennels he plans on visiting are in MA, upstate NY/NYC(??), and NJ. I might tag along to a few. He found a bunch of good ones in PA but they are way too far from us for just a visit at this time.

[ezzy333]

I like em all. But what I Really Like, is Quality Control.

Quality control is necessary when practised in free enterprize but has no place within a government body, wether that is in our federal government or by a breed registry. When someone else starts telling you what you can breed and not breed all it means is someone else is making the decisions to his standard instead of yours and sure doesn't guarantee an improvement in the end result.

Ezzy

[wems2371]

I am gonna guess that his wife wants to go with what she is comfortable with. And she's probably been dealing with information overload, and maybe a little fear, if she's been following this thread in regards to potential agression. I sure hope that he is going to take her to these DD kennels so she can see for herself. While I don't discount genetic background--there are a lot of bad dogs out there made by man.....kind of the nature vs nurture. If you were closer, I have a friend in my NAVHDA club that tests and occasionally breeds DDs. His dogs are just about always off leash on training day, are social, and listen very well--but he has put some time into them, no different than me with my gsp. This last weekend, we went out to his acreage for training. Due to the weather, we hid in the barn most of the day, where his raised kennels for his 4 DDs are. Most everyone went over during the day, and petted the dogs through the cage (without his supervision), and we all came out with our fingers and nary a bark. On the other hand, I went over to visit his mates spinones and was greeted with a bunch of deep barks, and walked away. Not saying spinones are aggressive (cause I'm sure they're not), but they were way more intimidating than the ugly dogs. To me, it depends how much research he puts in to finding a good kennel--and ask for contact #s for other pup owners to find out how they have been temperament wise AND deciding how much effort he wants to put into training and socializing (key ingredient with any dog). If he doesn't take his wife to the DD kennels though, he's probably wasting his time going IMO. Denise

[Petra]

I hope I'm not opening the worm can. Why doesn't your friend get a pointing Lab?

[lovesuglydogs]

EZZY-I couldnt Disagree with you more

With a lack of QC, you will have a free-for-all, which leads to destruction & polluted or weakened gene pool

Any Industry: dog breeders club or auto manufacturer, needs QC. And why there are Standardized, Regulatory bodies in these industries. Some anyway.

With dogs, as in other industries, it ultimately becomes about greed, ego, vanity & Self interest, rather than a guild with a common purpose. That being...To Follow & Continue the standard set forth, by the BREED FOUNDERS..the Creators

Self Destructive is the term I use. Greed gets involved and corrupts.

Anything that is enginnered..home, car, tool, gun or utility dog, is done with a plan & a purpose & Plan. Thats QC. There are then engineering standards ( with tolerances & acceptable deviations) but tightly controlled. Think about it.
Even trialers use a form of QC. Their own QC ie Ribbons.. Governments rarely get involved, except to DEREGULATE, as Reagan & Bush did. We're seeing the results now, correct?

The better something is designed, & the Tighter the QC, the better & more reliable is the by-product, as a rule. That is why I like & trust my life with Glocks & Sig Sauers. Navy Seals & 90% of US police departments think so & go with them, over say, a Taurus.. Why? Its not cost.
Better QC=Better Reliability & Better product.

Want a list of Breeds Ruined in the USA by NON QC Breeding?
Boxers, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Goldens, Dobermanns, Irish Setters, need I go on?

[lovesuglydogs]

I was just warned by the moderator..Im now on 'double secret probabtion.'

This is now a 'hot topic' as my post to address Ezzy's post about

government body, wether that is in our federal government

& QC control, standards, DeRegulation & regulation was seen as a No, no.

Ive never been a 'PC' Person.
The truth often isnt polite & those to thin skinned to deal with reality & the facts, make communicating very difficult.

I'm bowing out of this board, rather than put up with tippy toeing on a board & wondering if someone might possibly be offended & have their wittle feelwings hurt, with anything posted. I relish Free Speech, not controlled speech.
I want to live in America, Not AmeriKa
Been nice typing to some of you & posting. Best of luck with your dogs.

[pear]

Loves, That isn't what you were warned about and you know it..... Try the Finacial Melt Down you were ranting about beore you edited it.... "pear"

[lovesuglydogs]

Pear..in your private email to me, you did not mention 'financial meltdown' as the smoking gun in your warning of me being 'history'... you may post our private correspondence if you wish, or I can.

Is a financial meltdown news to anyone today?
Unless one is in a coma, one would not know it..Or is Meltdown not descriptive enough? "Crash" more appropriate perhaps?
I have a wide vocabulary & could be more descriptive if it was insufficient.

I cant do a ballet dance & tip toe with my posts.
I responded to a post. I addressed it directly & used an example. I never brought up politics, finances or anything else prior, except to Respond to Ezzy's Post.
Did you Warn Ezzy too & threaten him with Banning & being 'history'?
I already know the answer..

If thin skin is the order & complexion of this board, Im better off banning it, & parting ways. I have strong views & dont apologize for them. I think you should be ashamed really, but Not having Any shame, is the order of the day in AmeriKa these days.

Best to everyone here. Stay well.

[wems2371]

I like quality control too.....call me crazy. You're not forced to buy a DD, you CHOOSE one and therefore you CHOOSE to follow their rules. No different than me choosing to drive a car and being forced to stop and stop signs and drive in the correct lane--if I don't want the right taken away. No different than choosing medical insurance and being told which provider/clinic I can go to. Open your eyes, there are people all around you telling you what you can and cannot do in this world (for example moderators).............so why is this any different.

Your friend has been given a lot of valuable information in this thread, what's left IMO is for he and his wife to investigate and come to conclusions on their own if this is the right breed for them. You could go forever here, back and forth on good vs bad points. :roll: If he goes to check them out, please let us know what he thinks and decides on for his family. Good luck to him. Denise

[Trekmoor]

Why doesn't your friend get a pointing Lab?

I have been wondering exactly the same thing ! I have also noted that labs appear to be getting slagged off. Yes there will be "rubbish" labs around but the same thing applies to that breed as to any other - go to a good breeder ! I no longer have labs but I still think they are one of the best gundog breeds around when bought from a good source.

We have D.D.'s in this country too. I am anti them here for reasons that may not apply in the U.S. As I understand it in order to be a D.D. dog eligible for breeding they have to pass various tests. One of these tests is the willingness to kill "vermin." They have to prove that they will kill. I believe vermin is actually supplied for the tests . Our press and our antis would have a field day with that deliberately bred for characteristic !
Cartoons would appear in daily newspapers of dear old auntie Florences darling puusy cat disappearing down the throat of a ravening gundog. It could lead to a lot of trouble, we have some real nutcase antis and the papers are ever ready to jump onto the bandwagon.

From another perspective , trials over here are hard to win . A dog showing the least tendency to hard mouth will be eliminated. It would do no good to explain to a judge that the reason a dog turns pheasants into soup is because it is bred to kill rats, cats, foxes and badgers and to pull down and finish off deer. Some dogs can kill vermin and remain soft mouthed but many others cannot, I don't know how much that would matter to this prospective D.D. buyer ???

Bill T.

[coryf]

This thing just won't die will it?

Bill T.,

Just because a dog will dispatch fur doesn't mean it has a hard mouth on birds. Mouth habits and manner of retrieve are judged very closely in the DD tests. I saw many retreivers a couple weekends ago at a hunt test in North Dakota that wouldn't have passed "manner of retrieve" in a DD test. I'm not defending anything......just sayin'. Cory

[TheShadow]

yes a wealth of info in this thread.

i am unsure what happened with "loves..." as I did not follow it so... Loves gave some good info

pointing lab well he doesn't want to consider it. personal pref. also there aren't any breeders even remotely close to us that he could go visit. and they want a premium on them.

[edit] my friend really likes the way these dogs are tested. He likes to see the proof and for whatever reason likes the fact that a DD can "dispatch" fur game (but not his house cats so) and he told me on another board he just signed up with a GWP owner said his dog dispatched a bobcat! yikes! I guess his GWP ran into the woods and came back and delivered a dead bobcat to its owner. I don't know if I'd want that much prey drive in my dog. Granted this owner admitted he has a lot of training left to do with his GWP as it is not totally under control but my friend was facinated with this story, i hope its not some dark side of him! j/k

i think he is setting something up for a visit this sunday with one kennel in NY and another in MA for the following weekend... i might tag along so I'll report back my observations!

again thanks for all that have put in a great deal of effort in giving their thoughts and opinions and advice! myself and my bud greatly appreciate it!

[lovesuglydogs]

Bill T
Hardmouth is Not a problem in the DD. Never has been. Never will be.
Dispatching vermin is valued in the breed, as European hunters are game managers, licensed with the state.
Controlling vermin numbers is mucho importante. Vermin isnt 'supplied' it is based on field encounters & judged.
This degree of sharpness Does not effect retrieving ability any way, shape or form. But it helps, if the dog is unwilling to withstand adversity in such an act, it will also give up on difficult retrieves.
Hard mouth is a serious fault & judged in every test. It is unacceptable. Cory was correct.

Denise..
Good point.

Shadow..
These dogs can have alot of drive & need to be well trained. Easy enough to do, comes with time & knowledge.
If your friend is willing to spend the time, he can have a great companion.
Have your friend go visit a breeder & be done with it. The more posts, the more BS.
Nothing wrong with Hunt bred GWPs, but they are not DDs. If I looked at them, Id favor Navhda bred dogs but I dont accept substitutes. I want a Sig or a Glock, not a Taurus.
IMO, the Better GWP lines are heavy in DD blood.

I hope I didnt offend anyone with my post. Carry On

[sjohnny]

I am very intrigued with the DDs. They seem to be the "ultimate versatile dog" and that has a great deal of appeal to me but I just like dogs with soft fur. I spend a lot more time petting my dogs than hunting with them.

I like the testing/quality control concept as well. I don't think the government should be involved in dog breeding but I have no problem with a registry/organization having requirements for breeding/registration within their group. Nothing says you can't buy a DD and breed it to whatever you want - you just can't register the offspring with that group unless you comply with their rules. My wife works in a vet clinic. The worst tempered dogs she sees are labs, cockers, and rotts. I agree wholeheartedly that popularity ruins breeds. People start breeding poor examples of the breed just because they have papers and they know they can sell the offspring fast. I also know that there are still a lot of good responsible breeders of labs and the other breeds who breed for temperament, health, ability to do the job for which the breed was established. People who just want a lab because they heard they were good with kids and don't research breeders but get the first $50 lab they find in the paper are the ones who are hurting the reputation of the breed. Some of these are great dogs but it's a roll of the dice. Some of these people then breed their papered $50 lab to another $50 papered lab who may even be the sister of the one they bought. Fast forward a few years and labs bite more people than any other breed ( I do realize that raw numbers are meaningless outside of the context of percentage but there are a lot of people that just look at raw numbers).

I'll quit rambling now and go get some more coffee.

John

[ezzy333]

Nothing wrong with liking a DD but absolutely no need to try and run anyother breed down. DD's are what they are regardless of any other breed and always will be. Plus it doesn't make much sense in trying to run down the most popular breed in the world that make great housepets as well as hunting dogs. And there is a reason they are popular whhether we like them or not.

Ezzy

[lovesuglydogs]

Ezzy.. I never ran the Lab down. In fact (if you took the time to read my posts) you'd see that I stated I admired Labs alot, that no other breed can do what they do: take the training, Mark, or Perform as they can at an extreme level. I also stated they are very user friendly & probably easier to train than any other hunting dog, especially a beginner.

I dont compete in SRS- Retreiving Games, or have a desire to have a dog do a 500 yd blind retrieve. I favor pointers over flushers & Id rather a non shedding coat.
Nor do I excuse the more common poor temperments seen in Labs these days, that are overbred & poor specimens. Personally, Ive seen a few even at HRC hunt tests. One, An adult dog that couldnt even jump in the back of a truck bed. Owner was titling the dog to 'breed' it.

Ezzy-If I sum up your posts related to mine, it is....That You dont like 'QC', you dont want interference or any mandatory club bylaws, with strict controls, for breeding, & you dont like someone 'criticizing' a Popular household Pet icon. Correct?
This is fine & ok. For you. But not for me and members of our club. I dont fault your view or viewpoints. Im just pointing out a different way. A way that produces consistency & results.

[Trekmoor]

Some dogs can kill vermin and remain soft mouthed but many others cannot

That was what I said on this subject . I believe it to be true. Nothing said here so far has given me reason to change my point of view. Not one single D.D. dog has won a trial in Britain yet. Wirehairs have but not D.D.'s. Something is wrong ,I can't say for sure it is their mouths I haven't been there when they were eliminated.

Your country is different in many ways. The D.D. breed may be very suitable there but .I.M.O. it isn't here. Despite our H.P.R. breeders having made an effort to breed soft mouth dogs for many years now, every trial season at a great many trials dogs get eliminated for being hard mouthed........ sometimes several dogs in the one trial. The dogs that can do the full H.P.R. while staying under control and while staying soft mouthed get through and maybe even win. No D.D. has done that yet that I am aware of. I am assuming from what has been said that D.D.'s are very good at hunting etc, so that only leaves the control or the mouth as eliminating factors in trials.

I had no intention of offending anyone - I spoke of what I have concerns about with the D.D. breed in Britain.

Bill T.

[coryf]

No offense taken here. My reply to trials would be that the DD is bred to be a hunting dog not a trial dog. There often is a big difference .....not always....in America anyway.

NOw that should open up a whole new can of worms. I see no end to this thread. LOL.....

[lovesuglydogs]

Bill T
How many DDs are even in Scotland? Theres No Registered VDD Club in the British Isles, at this time.
I Know of 1 British Breeder that won Krufts Best of Breed, with her dogs & Ran in German Hegewald! Shes has trialed & won, however.
They test in Germany. But she has attained:

a Sled Dog Champion and 5 UK Full Champions (Show Champions with field trial awards) we have 6 UK Field Trial award winners and 4 dogs with a Show Gundog Working Certificate - all of our own breeding.
We have won Best of Breed at Crufts 3 times, in 1997, 1999 and 2004 with all the winning dogs owned by friends.

Their dogs are actually Out placing GWPs at trials.. Latest News
http://www.kimmax.co.uk/kimmax-triple-s ... king-test/
http://www.kimmax.co.uk/

In addition to the primary reason of not having a club, DDs arent run in trials because generally Ribbons arent valued, judged or prized in that group. Here or abroad.
The DDs here arent AKC registered & have no wish to be. With German Hunters, where trained dogs are required, & losing game is punishable, DDs are overwhelmingly popular. And gaining here in the states.
The Only 2 DDs that I know of that were 'campaigned' here in the states, did very well. Both German Imports. Lutz V Cadenburg & Timo V Richtof.

The real hoot is that the top US FT GWP producer (Lutz) was a German import & a 'Hog dog'. The top versatile producer (Lutz)is a straight german bred dog - VC Kettlecreeks Moe MH and the top show dog in the history of the breed was sired by a German import. Imagine that!!!

This German Hog Dog was sold to a trialer & achieved his FC in record amount time.
Sultan V Richtof, DD German Import, won a Midwest Open Pheasant Championship. Last dog to run, 5 longtails ahead of him had No finds, & yet he won the trial. Just as a case in point.

And back to your point, dispatching fur has No correlation to hard mouth.
Schutzhund trained dogs retrieve dumbbells over hurdles. They are Hard mouth dogs (as they bite & Fight), but not on the retrieve!
Next..

[ezzy333]

Ezzy.. I never ran the Lab down. In fact (if you took the time to read my posts) you'd see that I stated I admired Labs alot, that no other breed can do what they do: take the training, Mark, or Perform as they can at an extreme level. I also stated they are very user friendly & probably easier to train than any other hunting dog, especially a beginner.

I dont compete in SRS- Retreiving Games, or have a desire to have a dog do a 500 yd blind retrieve. I favor pointers over flushers & Id rather a non shedding coat.
Nor do I excuse the more common poor temperments seen in Labs these days, that are overbred & poor specimens. Personally, Ive seen a few even at HRC hunt tests. One, An adult dog that couldnt even jump in the back of a truck bed. Owner was titling the dog to 'breed' it.

Ezzy-If I sum up your posts related to mine, it is....That You dont like 'QC', you dont want interference or any mandatory club bylaws, with strict controls, for breeding, & you dont like someone 'criticizing' a Popular household Pet icon. Correct?
This is fine & ok. For you. But not for me and members of our club. I dont fault your view or viewpoints. Im just pointing out a different way. A way that produces consistency & results.

Lovesuglydogs,

This may surprise you put I wasn't even talking about any of your posts and felt no need to since you had already told us how you felt and then said you were through and were leaving. Somehow I believed you! I was refering to the post directly before mine which if you are back to stay you might read and understand what and why I posted. I have no real interest in what you like and dislike since that is a personal preference. My preference is more along the lines of free enterprize where we all have the freedom to make our own decisions. Granted, this allows some real wierdos to make their own decisions but if I wanted to live in a society where just the elite and powerful decide what we all are going to do I wouldn't have defended our freedom with my life on the line.

Sorry but it just the way I feel,

Al

[Trekmoor]

I am aware of the Kimmax D.D. dogs. They may be excellent in many ways but ,I'm sorry, you are misinformed if you think that those dogs are being placed first, are actually winning trialsin Britain. Last I heard a Wirehair from that kennel won a novice trial. I congratulate the kennel on that win but as I said earlier a D.D. has yet to win a trial in Britain.

Perhaps that has changed this year. Our trial season is just getting going so I may not have heard yet of any D.D. wins. I will enquire about this and if I find a D.D. has won then I give you my word I will report back on that.

We live in differing countries, the requirements from the dogs are a bit different and I think there is some confusion here between British trials and British tests.
Dummies (bucks) are used for tests over here. We do not take tests seriously, I have won many tests but that means nothing. Test wins, no matter how many or at what standard , cannot be entered on a U.K. pedigree. I think of tests as playing at gundog work. I hope folk enter them, I hope folk win them, I hope folk enjoy them - but they are not held on game and prove not much at all. The K.C. gives no credit whatsoever to a test winning dog of any breed, retriever, spaniel or Hunt - Point - Retriever.

I wish you every joy and every success with your D.D. dogs. If I lived over the pond I might even own one 'cos it's, .I.M.O. a case of horses for courses.

Bill T.

[TheShadow]

wow, never thought a DD thread would get this much attention and traffic! i somehow feel guilty...

[fuzznut]

not to side track this discussion, but... Lutz is not the top producer of field champions, he was a very good dog and was a good sire. Lutz was imported and gave much to our breed. He was AKC registered and I don't believe he was ever tested in the DD system.

GWP's will dispatch vermin, but can switch from that to retrieving a bird tenderly. They know when to use those teeth and when not to.

This is not a breed (nor the DD) for anyone who wants a leisurely, sometime hunting dog. Without a lot (A LOT) of work, exercise and training, they WILL make you crazy. I would suggest your friend spend as much time around a bunch of DD's or GWP's before making a decision. And tell him to be careful when he goes to look at any litter of these guys.... they are adorable with that peachfuzz on the face!

[TheShadow]

well guys, my buddy went on a road trip with his wife to a breeder out in MA. He told me it sorta opened his eyes. Although the breeder was new (but not new to owning a DD) he grilled them both and flat out said he would not sell them a DD when the time comes. The guy said that he honestly feels he should stick to a proven lab and even a British Lab if possible. If he really wants a pointing dog he suggested to look into GSPs but also consider a Britt. This is the second person that said this! I am unsure of the specifics (questions asked) but the wife didn't like the breed. friend just said the DDs were aloof and a bit uneasy. He still is going to NY tomorrow to check out a "better" breeder if all goes well. But he's having second thoughts I think.

He does appreciate all the posts in this thread as it helped him in his research.

Tomorrow I'll ask him about the GSP / Britt suggestion. I find that very interesting...the only thing I can think of is his "energy level", family plans, amount of hunting he does, and training experience (only trained one dog).

What are your thoughts on a GSP vs a DD? I would think not too much right? And a Britt is a whole other thing

[Chaingang]

What are your thoughts on a GSP vs a DD? I would think not too much right?

Maybe that should be refraised "What are your thoughts on a DK vs a DD" ?

Oh! Oh! was that the sound of another can of worms being opened...

[coryf]

I'm staying out of this publically.

Looks like some nice shorthairs chaingang. Like the pedigrees!

[TheShadow]

What are your thoughts on a GSP vs a DD? I would think not too much right?

Maybe that should be refraised "What are your thoughts on a DK vs a DD" ?

Oh! Oh! was that the sound of another can of worms being opened...

NO not talking DKs now!!!!

[TheShadow]

i feel bad but i just want to thank all that contributed to this thread. my buddy has decided not to pursue a DD. Second breeder also suggested that he look at a GSP if he really wanted to get into the pointer game. But again suggested he'd be best with a proven lab. I did not get details but I think a bit of it had to do with the wife not liking the breed and his "commitment" to the DD? might be too much dog for him to handle? i don't know. he works a 9hr day 5 days a week and is not the most athletic person but... he said he might start looking into GSPs now. oh boy. well thanks again and my friend wanted me to say thanks as well. interesting ride...

[Chaingang]

Just so you know. GSP's require a big commitment as well. If your not the active type or willing to give them the exercise and guidance they need, then he may not be happy with them as well. For someone with less time for training and or vigorous exercise, a lab may just be the ticket.

[TheShadow]

i agree, i think he should look into a british lab. we know a few guys that have GSPs and well they are not the best trained in the field and some of these guys are CONSTANTLY yelling at their dogs like they understand English my friend probably doesn't remember this but 2 years ago he said "i would not want that dog (a GSP)!" this guy who had a GSP could not control it or just did not care(?) and the GSP was running rampant getting everyone's dog into a frenzy and just goin nuts. so i'm not sure what he's doing anymore! i think he just likes the idea of hunting behind a pointing dog. but his level of commitment may not be there and starting a family within the next 2 yrs? i don't know. he has his whole life ahead of him so it doesn't mean he will NEVER get a pointing dog.

his previous lab was a real joy to hunt behind and just a joy in general. i remember the begining stages he said it was tough to train and he got frustrated a lot but things worked out after 2yrs. and then the lab was fine until it passed. his wife is use to this temperment and he is use to a lab so its logical to stick to it again and after his kid is older then i say if he still wants a pointer then go for it. more time on his hands hopefully.

i think the best thing he could have done was that he was honest with the breeders. he told me both breeders catch a lot of people lying. they just want the dog because "its cool". one breeder said that he sold a DD pup to a guy and then come to find out the guy lied about being a hunter and gave the DD to a "real" hunter who in turn contacted the breeder about the dog's history.

so it seems even "pet dog" people want a DD just because... then they find out the dog is too hard to handle thus giving them up. horrible.

[ezzy333]

We have switched gears now and are talking about how well trained a dog is and not about the breed. There are few dogs that need to mind anymore than a Lab and to get them to do that takes training. I find no more problems having a bird dog of any breed as a pet than I do any larger working type dog. A toy breed does take less work but the rest are all about alike.

I hope he picks the breed he likes and forgets everything else and then if he takes the time to work with the dog he should end up with a nice pet and a hunting dog.

Ezzy

[Greg Jennings]

OK, since the original choice of a DD has petered out, I have an off-the-wall suggestion.

Have your friend and wife look at a Vizsla. They are incredibly people-oriented pointing dogs. I actually got mine when going from a lab to a pointing dog myself and wanting a pointing breed with the people-skills of a lab.

Nix this suggestion if your friend wants to duck hunt in cold water.

If you're close enough, I'd be happy to have your friend and wife meet my dog and have him/them hunt over him.

Greg J.