Gun Dog Forum

Ginger is 12 months old now and there is a trial coming up next month. I have been thinking about putting a "toe in the water" by entering a trial. There is an Open Puppy and Open Derby stakes. Which one should I do and why?
Thanks,
Gary

Gary,

Be sure you know the difference between the two. Derby is 20 minutes and puppy is 15. Derby dogs MUST point where puppy doesn't have too.

Do one or the other or BOTH.

Both Open stakes will have professional in it. Is it walking? If not, both are horseback.

Go for it! Have fun and keep it positive for your pup.

Don

On the form it says "horses are permitted in all stakes" - (there are numerous events in addition to these two). I have emailed the committe person to see if most people use horses for the puppy stakes. Do they?

Ginger points. She may bump the first one on each outing, and then is like "oh yeah, I can't do that." She is not steady to wing.

Thanks,
G

It is a horse back trial then.

No need to be any steadier then that for an AKC derby.

I would say, depending on where you are running, the majority of handlers in a horse back OP or OD will ride. No worries... walk if you have the inclination. It's perfectly acceptable.

Remember now, a field trial is a beauty contest on wheels. Juviniles are judged based on potential. Go for it with an open mind and have some fun.

Don

Gary,

It is a horseback trial. You can walk though but nobody else will be I'm sure you could borrow a horse or rent one for your brace. In Derby they only have to point long enough for the judge to see the dog on point then they can take the bird out chase whatever. In the puppy stake no birds planted no gun fired usually. In the derby even if your dog takes out the bird you would want to get off and fire your blank gun at that time. Try them both it'd be alot of fun. She can only run puppy until 15 months so I would for sure try that one. You will be running against pro in open stakes but so has my little puppy and we're still coming away with placements. Expect nothing but have fun you'll enjoy it there's nothing more fun that watching you dog from the top of a horse you get to see so much more its a real treat.

Rob

Gary, why not put her in both! If you're talking about North Jersey's trial, I'd assume 100% of the other entrants will be on horseback, but there will be a wrangler there so you can be too (and I'll scout for you) We usually don't get a lot of pros at our trials, and puppy and derby stakes are usually pretty small (lucky if we have 7 or 8 entries usually).

The rules only say that she has to be over 6 months to play the game, under 15 months to run puppy stakes and under 2 yrs old to run derby stakes so you can absolutely do both.

With puppy stakes, they don't put birds out and you probably won't have to fire a gun if she has bird contact (that's information included in the trial premium). In derby stakes, she has to have bird contact to place, and you have to dismount and fire your gun to show she's not gun shy. Both really fun stakes.

gar,

I'd do both. Your pup will get the experience that it needs. Again, puppy is always fun and derby is for the more trained dog.
Neither requires the dog to be finished. I do want to mention that you are not required to use a horse. But, if you do, there will probably be a wrangler there with horses that you can rent on a per-brace basis. I tend to walk during trials as I run gundog and have never seen the need to ride. Some trainers do not like to be braced with someone who walks but, most do not seem to mind. At least they still run their dogs with mine and talk to me at the fire later that night. This Fall I will be running my 11 month old female in puppy and derby just to get her used to running in competition. That and the fun of it.

Both if you aren't worried about her catching birds in the derby. Typically no birds down in the puppy.

Do both and have a some fun.

I rented from the wrangler for a few braces at a trial this Spring and am comfortable enough on horseback. When I ran her from an ATV, at first she was right by me, like what are you doing on that thing? She eventually got the hang of it and took off. I wonder what she would do if she saw me on a horse? I worry she would want to dork around with the horse, in addition to wrastling around with her bracemate.

The prior weekend we will be on grouse for a few days in NH, so she should get some good exposure. And the trial is at the club we belong to so she knows the grounds.

Anyway, she does point and is normally steady on birds, and I have fired a blank gun over her. Her sire is a NGDC, so maybe there are some genes there too She also can be a real screamer at times and has prey drive. I will check my schedule - maybe we will do this thing. Karen, thanks for offering to scout. Hmmmm....... my fear is she does well... and then "uh oh" $$$$$$$ horses $$$$$$$...
G

It'll be the most fun you have spending money in your life though Gary!!

My club, Eastern GSP Club, is having a trial the weekend of Oct 4. We are offering a Walking Derby Stake (I'm judging it). It should be a lot of fun. If you are interested let me know and I will send you a premium.

Rob

What town will the trial be in?

The Setter Club in Medford, NJ.

Take a look at the premium and see if they offer Am Puppy/Am Derby. If they do both stakes will be walking. If catching birds isn't an issue you could always enter her in both am/open puppy/derby and give her four chances to have a good time if you are eligible as an amateur. CR

Both puppy and derby are "Open." But anyway, even considering myself an amateur dog trainer/handler would be a compliment!

They do have something called Amateur Gun Dog. What is that? What is a "bird field?"

Here is the line-up:
OPEN ALL AGE
AMATEUR GUN DOG
OPEN DERBY
AMATEUR ALL AGE
OPEN GUN DOG
OPEN PUPPY

COURSES AND BIRDS
All stakes are single course without bird field. Quail released in all stakes except
open puppy. A blank cartridge will be fired in the open puppy if situation warrants.
Only plugged barrel blank guns permitted. No live ammunition permitted.
Horseback handling permitted in all stakes.
AKC APPROVED TRACKING COLLARS permitted in all stakes

Our walking Derby is Amateur only. We also have Open Derby and Open Puppy, which are horseback.

The Amateur gun dog stake is for broke dogs...steady through wind and shot. Any gun dog and all age stake is for broke dogs.

A birdfield is an area, usually at the end of the course, where birds are planted. Birdfield trials used to be quite common, but not so much anymore. You'd get 22 minutes on the backcourse, and then 8 minutes in the birdfield for gundog stakes.

Amateur simply means that you haven't received money for training. There is a time limit to this but, since I don't train dogs and charge a fee, I have never paid it much attention. The really serious trialers could tell you more. I trial when I have the time, which isn't often, and when I have the funds. That is why I run amatuer gundog, puppy and derby exclusively.

Gary, as you know, you and I are at similar stages with our dogs. If you think you might have interest in any type of club or trialing or testing, I would definitely recommend giving it a try and seeing what happens.

I joined a local NAVHDA chapter and have been training for the better part of this year and was very "gunshy" about running Tucker in the natural ability test (mainly due to the fact that I'm a novice handler and such). Those guys really spoonfed me and got me over my concerns and we're running the test in a few weeks. Now that I've actually sent my money in, I'm excited, anxious, confident, nervous, all of the above. I say give it a try and have a blast, that's the only way you'll find out if you like it.

Good Luck

IMHO, so both and run the risk of getting bitten by doing hoseback field trials.

It is a lot of fun.

Let us know how it goes, there are lots of folks to help you.

Pepper

Gary...what have you got to lose but a few bucks on entries? Enter the Open Puppy stake at least ( go ahead and enter her in Derby too if you want to spend the extra $40 entry fee for fun). Get together with Karen ( if she is willing) and set a time where you can get Ginger out in front of a horse, if only once before the trial. Ginger knows the grounds....she is birdy.....she wants to please..........and most importantly is BRED for this......I say.............

GO FOR IT!!!!!!

and have yourself the best fun $80 will ever buy you and Ginger.

Thanks, I am going to do it. Karen has offered to scout for me. This time of year I have been seeing people training on horseback down at the club. I think next time I may just ask someone if I can turn my pup loose around one. Ginger has seen them gallop across the way when she is off leash and hasn't done anything. She just needs to do a sniff or two maybe.

Thanks for the encouragement!
Gary

Gary, I think Ginger has been on enough birds at the setter club to know that she's there to hunt and just may have an advantage over pups that have never been there or don't have the bird exposure she has.

If you're available, come up to Windsor,CT this weekend, bring Ginger, and ride some braces (same wrangler that will be at the NJBC, Delval & the horseback Anthracite trial).

Also, Anthracite (in Weatherly, PA) is having an all-walking trial the weekend after North Jersey. You might want to think about entering that one too just to see what the walking ones are like too.

Hopefully this is the same wrangler used in April and maybe I could get the same horse. I didn't have any problems with it. I am reasonably comfortable on horseback, although it's really been 20+ years since any significant riding, which wasn't even that significant. But I know trying to handle a dog from one will be a different story.

Yes, same wrangler as last season. You should be fine. I'm told they have some pretty nice horses.

My first trial - i thought that when the judge said " pick up your dog", I had to carry her all the way back to the car!

Shhhhhh... Gary doesn't know how much this trial is really going to cost him..

Sure the entry fee... Then the horse, trailer, dually, LQ trailer, 2nd horse, acerage, kennels, stud fees, trainer....

Gary,

I was thinking about testing out a trial this fall myself. I know my dog isn't ready but it might be fun. Sammy gets very anxious at W&W when there's heavy training going on (singing, whistling etc.). He does much better ECSA. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to a trial situation. I don't know if its the place or the commotion (or combo) that makes him nervous.

I am also unsure about handling the dog and horse at the same time. If youre serious about trying it out, we could let the secretary (Anne Marie?) know that we plan to walk and ask her to brace us together. That way we wont slow down the horeback folks. I dont know if the rules allow this but I can check.

For now, I will stick with the puppy and not do the derby. When at ESCA I now stay well clear of the quail pens (seems birds are always nearby). Sammy has a tendency to work the birds until he's right on top of them and often ends up flushing them before establishing a solid point. It could just be bad scent conditions but for now I want control of him and the birds until he is steady to the flush.

Let me know what you think.

Brent

Brent, I would definitely walk the puppy stakes with you if they would allow that. My guess is that braces are drawn randomly and that may be the rules. But it doesn;t hurt to ask. I will ride in the Derby stakes for sure.,... it is the next day.

The draw is supposed to be random. It isn't always, favors do happen, but it's supposed to be random.

I thought it might be random. I was hoping we might do everyone else a favor.

Thinking about it more, Gary and I would probably learn a heck of a lot more braced with someone who knows whats actually supposed to happen out there. It would probably look more like a field trial 101 class than an event. I'm definitely not going to walk in a horseback stakes. Maybe ride along and watch a bunch this fall, regain some confidence on horseback and see where things go for next year. An official walking stakes might be a better alternative for the near term. We would just make it in the under 15mo age bracket for the Anthracite walking trial.

Brent:
On this thread, or one I accidentally high-jacked about "walking in a horseback trial," a member mentions a walking trial at the Setter Club on October 4th. Maybe you should give that one a try. Anyway, I am far from an experienced rider even though I know how to, but the wrangler horse I had in the gallery in April was pretty good. I'd rather not ride in my first trial, just so I don't have the distraction, but at the end of the day the dog is loose and doing its thing, so maybe it doesn't matter.
G