Pointer- Setter biased world???

[Razor]

Why won't the pointer and setter judges give a short tailed dog a fair shake??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


Does anyone know who judged the 73 International Endurance Championship??

[ezzy333]

It would be extremely rare to find a short-tailed dog that can run with a pointer or setter. Nor would I want one too really. I think every breed has a spot to fulfil and it is us who have produced the bias by judging our dogs to a pointer-setter standard rather than advancing and judging on the strong points of our short-tailed breeds. We have almost ignored the retrieving ability our breeds have, or the ability to handle running birds, or the water abilities that were bred in. Those are the qualities our breeds excelled in but instead of advancing them we have decided we will downplay those qualities and try to make our dogs run like a pointer. Doesn't make much sense to me but we sure work at it. Every brred has there strong points so lets keep them that way and provide a great dog for any situation.

Ezzy

[phillipsgsp]

That's right I would rather have adog that can do it all, Waterfowl, upland, whatever. I love having versitile dogs doing what versitile dogs are supose to do, not just run big and point. Earning trial ribbons without having to retrieve to me makes no sense at all. I love it when one of my dogs points a coon or a fox, just as fun to shoot them as it is to shoot birds over them!

Chad

[DGFavor]

Why won't the pointer and setter judges give a short tailed dog a fair shake??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

They will and they do - more often than tail envied, pointer wannabe, short tailed judges do IMO. I've always felt treated fairly - lost when my dogs lost, won when my dogs won. Only time I can think of with my dogs was when my pointer buddy was runnin' Stitch at one of the Oregon championships, had a good outing and was pretty PO'd when he didn't get the nod - funny when the long tail guy got short tailed!! Rich, you out there?? You over it yet?? Musta been something to it though when I got phone calls and apologies at the ID championships the following week! Big deal, sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. In my experience, far more negative judging (finding reasons not to use a dog) goes on in AKC/breed specific trials. Personally, I don't like when AF clubs get AKC folks to judge the championships - way too much focus on run because that's their misguided perception of AF trials, not enough on bird dog which is the focus (at any trial!!).

Have you felt your dogs have been judged unfairly? Not sure you've competed in any open Ch's have ya'...??

[RayGubernat]

This kind of complaining goes o all the time.


Lets see...

Short tailed dogs can't get a fair shake from longtail judges.
Longtail guys can't get a fair shake form short tial judges.
No sense entering a brittany club all age stake with anything but a brittany because first palce is reserved for Brittanys so they can qualify.
A grouse dog guy will never place a horseback dog in a grouse stake because they don't run with enough snap, crackle and pop.
A setter judge will never place a pointer at a grouse trial..

Yada - Yada - Yada.

If you want to play with pointers and setters in AF/AFTCA stakes you had better have a dog that can perform at their level or you are going to get whupped.

If a longtail guy wants to play with the continentals in an AKC retrieving stake, that longtail better be able to retrieve or you are gonna get whupped.

If you want to run your dog in a gundog stake, you had better be able to hold onto him.

I hear this garbage all the time...mostly form GSP owners who are convinced that their dogs are the greatest thing since sliced bread and HOW DARE anyone not hand them top placements. They must be biased or blind if they don't see that these dogs are the most talented...blahblahblahblah.

Baloney. If the dog does the job and beats the competition, it gets put up. If not...YOU LOSE. That is the nature of the game...one winner...all the rest are losers. Deal with it.

RayG

[slistoe]

Yeah, that's how I see it too Ray. I have never felt that I was at a disadvantage running my Brittanys in an AF Pointer trial because of the judges, but I was most certainly at a disadvantage because I was running Brittanys. Pretty tough to keep pace with those dogs. But when we did we got ribbons. Sometimes even a first place when we deserved it.

Good judges look for good dogs.

[remmy]

Good judges look for good dogs.

That is the key! There are biased judges out there. But if you run under a good judge with a good dog then you stand a good chance.

[dlfl]

Wasn't Delmar Smith the first to put a champion title on a Brittany?

[slistoe]

Good judges look for good dogs.

That is the key! There are biased judges out there. But if you run under a good judge with a good dog then you stand a good chance.

Yeah - any judge that doesn't place my dogs is biased.

[ezzy333]

I really do feel most of the bias is with the owners and not thge judges. You never hear a winner complain about judges, it's always the loser. I also think you will find the winning breed percentage will mirror the percentage of entries for each breed. And that sounds very fair to me.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Too true. All of you. Whouldn't be a birddog owner if you didn't think your dog was the best birddog in the world. But just because we think it, doesn't make it so. Even the best dogs out there have bad trial, heck, hunting days. My male, who holds really well, broke on a bird during a trial on Sunday. Too many chuckars running in front of him while he was on point and he broke. Could have gotten mad but decided to laugh instead. His head seemed to shake back and forth in an almost, "oh no, now what do I do," sort of way. Guess we'll have to work on that.

[Sharon]

Brittany. Only dog my setter won't back. Can't see that tail. LOL

[Flush]

Come on man, back that statement up.

What are you basing that on? What venues are you talking about, all-age horseback or walking trials, etc.?

Personal experience or just the fact that there are very few AF Champions with short tails?

[3Britts]

I guess that you get a long tell because you need a signal to tell you that your dog in on a bird. With a Brittany, you don't need a sign. You just know your dog is on birds. In other words, big tails run, short tails find. I guess it is run aways vs. birddogs.

[RayGubernat]

3 Briitts-

You wrote:

"I guess that you get a long tell because you need a signal to tell you that your dog in on a bird. With a Brittany, you don't need a sign. You just know your dog is on birds. In other words, big tails run, short tails find. I guess it is run aways vs. birddogs."

I guess some people might see it that way. Of course they would be wrong. Thankfully not many judges that I know see it that way. Most judges I know won't place a run away because the rules say you have to have the dog at the end of the brace and the judge has to see the dog. Can't do that with a run away.

By the way, not all Britts out there run the risk of getting trampled by their handler's horse. I've actually seen quite a few that could run a lick. Hunted over a few, here and there. Even been braced with a couple that did a nice job on the ground when braced with a shore 'nuff crazy longtail runoff( of mine). Amazing...to some, I suppose.

I guess if it is your dog, you know if it is on point or not. With some Britts I do have to wait a moment and look twice to make sure it ain't just peeing...but that's just me.

Gotta be careful when you are throwing those bouquets of roses around. Sometimes you get stuck by the thorns.

RayG

[DGFavor]

I guess that you get a long tell because you need a signal to tell you that your dog in on a bird. With a Brittany, you don't need a sign. You just know your dog is on birds. In other words, big tails run, short tails find. I guess it is run aways vs. birddogs.

Sweet! Sounds like we'll see you this Fri/Sat/Sun at the Everton Derby Classic and the Region 9 Amateur Shooting Dog Championship at American Falls backing that smack up - just up the road from ya!! All native birds, no planters so should be a perfect opportunity to put up a real birddog over the runaways. You can give me your entries here and I'll jot 'em down. If it's OK, we'll wait to put your dogs name on the trophies until they win!!

I do know that the Derby judges are a couple local short tail guys wowed more by intelligent application and bird work than by "run" if that motivates ya' to enter.

[3Britts]

I guess that you get a long tell because you need a signal to tell you that your dog in on a bird. With a Brittany, you don't need a sign. You just know your dog is on birds. In other words, big tails run, short tails find. I guess it is run aways vs. birddogs.

Sweet! Sounds like we'll see you this Fri/Sat/Sun at the Everton Derby Classic and the Region 9 Amateur Shooting Dog Championship at American Falls backing that smack up - just up the road from ya!! All native birds, no planters so should be a perfect opportunity to put up a real birddog over the runaways. You can give me your entries here and I'll jot 'em down. If it's OK, we'll wait to put your dogs name on the trophies until they win!!

I do know that the Derby judges are a couple local short tail guys wowed more by intelligent application and bird work than by "run" if that motivates ya' to enter.

Can't this weekend. But, I will tell you what. My last two trials for 2008 will be the WFBC trial on 10/04-10/05 and the GSPCU trial the following week end. I'll be running agd, op & od. Of course, I rarely see any long tails there. I guess they don't have it in them.
If you boys have it, I'll see you there.

[DGFavor]

That's cool! Those sound like much more difficult and prestigious events - a single 1/2 hour circle in the dust of Faust, UT on dizzied birds vs testing bird dogs on 3 one hour courses on native game!!

Just kiddin' ya', hope ya' have a good time and your dogs do well!! Those guys are good down there on those birds and those grounds for sure!! Hope to see ya' in the Brags!!

[3Britts]

Deal.

[RayGubernat]

DGF -

That was pretty funny stuff. I wish we weren't the best part of a continent apart. Sounds like we have the same kind of slightly warped sense of humor.

Have fun and be careful out there.

RayG

[glk7243]

All the guys in Idaho are a bit different.