What is NSTRA?

[Greg Jennings]

Claiming that every dog of every breed will retrieve is beyond support.

So, Neil, come on down to Nashville. Sister wants to goose hunt; her 14 year old, arthritic, blind Yorkie is having a hard time. Get 'er done, Neil.

Now, if you want to loosen to the more reasonable claim that the drive for AF HB games contributes to such a degree to the desire to retrieve that the AF feels it's not worth it to have retrieve in the game, then I will not poke at you any further.

[snips]

I agree with Gonehuntin here. I see very few dogs that are good natural retrievers. Setters and Brittneys on the last of the list for natural, and being hard to FF even. Best are GSP's and E Pointers for natural or easyier to FF.

[scott townsend]

I have yet to see this heavily covered NSTRA field, if there were one, after 32 dogs and hunters, with judges and bird planters on 4-wheelers tromped through it, it would be beat down. I have been to Amo, and my backyard has more cover between mowings.

Neil, I happened to be over at the Amo grounds 3 weeks ago. All 3 fields had cover that ranged from no less then a foot up to 4 foot tall


All field trials produce good dogs, but all are games and artifical, none are wild bird hunting, for me, the ones that are run on wild birds come the closest. The purpose of field trials is to improve the breed, I don't know of any horseback guys that look to NSTRA for pups, I can tell you for a fact, most of the top NSTRA dogs come from horseback stock. The NSTRA guys I have talked with know way more about All-Age bloodlines than I do.

Have you ever heard of Sir Lancelot ????
There are also plenty of NSTRA trial fields that are loaded with objectives.
These are facts based on participating in thousands of braces all over the country.





NSTRA has some really nice dogs, dogs any hunter would be proud to own.


NeilNeil Mace
Rank: Senior Hunter

Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:05 pm

[wems2371]

In nearly 50 years of hunting, I have never and I have never heard of anyone that would hunt wild birds in a 40 acre field for 30 minutes, not even woodcock. And it is a fact that many of the NSTRA fields are smaller than 40 acres.

Welcome to Iowa in August. This is a wildlife magangement area 3 miles from my house. The all grass area is the border for this field, that the county actually mows every few years. It easily gets 3' and dense. The taller stuff (native grasses and flowers/weeds) is the bulk of the field, many of it taller than my 5'9" stature. Often our dogs have lept over the grass cover to get anywhere--otherwise you just bounce off of it like a trampoline. And they weave there way through the taller cover. Most of the time I cannot see my dog, and look for the tops of the weeds/grass for movement. I didn't even get into the worst parts of the management area, as my pup was already tired with the August heat and density of cover on her first outing here. The best time to come here is after the frost has melted a lot of the vegetation, or the first real snow has knocked it over. This is not unusual cover in my area.

http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa28 ... CN2895.flv
http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa28 ... CN2887.flv

I have never been to a NSTRA event to know what cover they provide, but in my experience this is the type of cover that could take 30 minutes to cover 40 acres on foot accurately. I don't live in the wide-open prairies that a few of you continue to use as an example. Where I'm from, if a dog cast a mile, he'd have crossed 2 roads already and probably ran through someones barnyard. Any public grounds of significant size (over 1000 acres) are few and far between, and have been visited by everyone and their brother. I might have to go to one farmer's 40 acre CRP field, then load back up and do some road ditches, and then move on to some creek bed border. We don't all live in the same location/cover, we don't all like to hunt the same things, we don't all have the same breed of dog, most folks don't own a horse, we don't all have the same economic status to play in the different games (wish I did), and we all like to have fun in different ways.(facts) Your reality of what hunting is in your area, may be vastly different than mine...... Out of the millions of hunters using dogs in the US, how many folks really care about (or even know about) FT's or NSTRA? Let people have their fun.....it's all good. Denise

[ckfowler]

My favorite 50 acre pheasant field. Even here in pheasant poor Ohio, I have found 18 pheasants in this mess. Typically a 3 hour hunt.


I appreciate the desire that AA dogs bring to the breed and my setter has those in her pedigree. I would not enjoy hunting with a dog with that much drive and run, just not my style. Most of my hunting is on singles, pheasant and grouse though I have had a couple opprtunities for coveyed quail and the dog did fine. Too much dog also not much good in the areas I have access to as earlier stated, a dog on a 300 yard cast is trespassing or lost.

Tall cover makes judging dogs very difficult.

I think we benefit from all the different formats and would think that crossing the drive from an AA type dog with the retrieving and tracking skill of a NAVHDA type dog would have great results for the average Joe. Mix a little more towards AA if you live in Prairie or chukar country, more towards the other for a dog for smaller thicker stuff. NSTRA showcases these kinds of dogs well.

[gunner]

Quote:" Have you ever heard of Sir Lancelot ???? "

Yes, a very fine Open All-Age Dog trained and handled by Field Trial Hall of Famer Hoyle Eaton nearly winning the National Bird Dog Championship at Grand Junction a few years ago.

While Lancelot's sire was 25x NSTRA Champion Crow's Little Joe and is often touted as an shining example of NSTRA breeding it is a fact that this dog's ancestors were winning horseback all-age dogs, including Hoyle Eaton's own National Champions and Hall of Fame Dog's Red Water Rex and Riggin's White Knight.
Also figuring heavily in the dog's pedigree is Hall of Fame,1980 National Champion The Texas Squire.

Crow's Little Joe was by 9x NSTRA Ch. Copper Nickle whose sire was by Mike Branscum's winning horseback all-age Ch. Branscum's Nickel.

The bottom side of the pedigree are again full of open all-age horseback champions including the Pike Creek dogs, which include Ch. Pike Creek Mike and Ch. & HOF Red Water Rex.

Hoyle Eaton continues to train and win major circuit trials with dogs carrying the blood of his great champions.
It's a fine fitting that those dogs progeny are being proven not only in the 3 hour wild bird endurance venues, class shooting dog stakes, foot hunting bird hunters that hunt various game birds across the country, as well as those that show their mettle in the NSTRA bird field shoots.

[Ruffshooter]

Many Grouse and woodcock covers are no more than a few acres, then you move on to the next.

[gunner]

I have often heard that NSTRA competition was for the true blue foot hunter and his dog and is the closest thing to actual hunting. However after attempts to run their good dogs on several different NSTRA grounds the complaint heard was pretty much the same; "my dogs go to where they've always found birds, cover that holds birds. They aren't going to dilly-dally around the middle of some open bird field."
I've always felt most dogs could be trained to hunt a bird field, but then again it's in the training and I think some hunters will not take the time to train a dog for that.

Also having heard participant's and officers of some clubs comments, I wonder if the enjoyment of NSTRA competition would be as it is if the emphasis would be more on the dog work and less on killing by having as in some AKC competition, using designated official guns? The answer I hear most often is "no way, I like the shooting, it's cheaper than the shooting preserve. I want something to kill for my money."

[romeo212000]

Thats not the reason I like NSTRA. It wouldn't matter if I was the one shooting or someone else, but I do like one of the requirements being that retrieving is considered of such importance. In order to get scored for a retrieve the bird has to be shot. Thats one of the reasons I like NSTRA.

[Dave Quindt]

Romeo212000 wrote:

In order to get scored for a retrieve the bird has to be shot.

No, that's not true. In order to get scored for a retrieve the bird has to be shot AT, and the dog must retrieve the bird. I know a guy who won a NSTRA trial and never hit a single bird; dog ran down and caught all 5 finds. Know another guy with a multiple CH dog who was a good enough shot to "tickle" birds in order to make for better retrieves.

NSTRA is not a "field trial", at least in the tradional sense of the term. It is a contest, like a horse race. In a contest, the "best" performer is the winner regardless of the quality, or lack thereof, of the performance. There is no minimum standard of performance, nor any ability for the judges to withhold placements, just like a horse race. In a field trial, the judges are there to sort out which dogs meet the minimum standards and which don't, and from there decide if any are worthy of the placements.

Field trials, at their core, are designed to be breeder's stakes. NSTRA events, at their core, are competitions. Now, of all of the different "hunting dog contests" out there, NSTRA BY FAR is the most established and refined of them all. It's a great game, and certainly "best of class".

Supporters of both formats would do each other a favor if they'd just accept this reality; you can't directly compare the formats because field trials and contests are two radically different things.

JMO,

JMHO,

FWIW,

TIA,

AFAIK,

SYLA,

Dave

[PntrRookie]

Romeo212000 wrote:

In order to get scored for a retrieve the bird has to be shot.

No, that's not true. In order to get scored for a retrieve the bird has to be shot AT, and the dog must retrieve the bird.

Dave I agree with your post, but even if you flush the bird and it "hops" (flies) 10 yards away and you do not shoot, or call safety, your dog can run out scoop it, retrieve it back and you get scored on that retrieve. So, splitting hairs, you do not have to shoot to get a retrieve. The judge may ask you to throw the bird for a "better retrieve" and even then, you do not have to shoot the bird (or even in the air).
FWIW

[kninebirddog]

though it only happens when you ahve poor birds which when your in a format that ahs to release birds ALL VENUES ARE SUBJECT to what the supplier sells them

in NSTRA it happens it is Not what we want and the Handlers I know including me are disgruntled at poor flyers it can and does


NSTRA dog has t show it can go for a solid thirty minuyes...it os judged on how good or bad it does

better your dog is trained the better your dog will score


I like what I can enjoy so my dog hunt they guide and the NSTRA trial If i had the time and the extra I would go for what ever i cuold run them in

i chose NSTRA because i could run more then other venues

Its all good

My dogs they don't care they get to find birds and run


that is what they LOVE and that is what I love to see

[Neil Mace]

Guys,

I am not going to argue, guess I have just been lucky, but I have never seen a dog that would not retrieve. Seen a good many that wouldn't/couldn't track or hunt dead, but they all can be trained to pick something up and bring it back.

Please go to the NSTRA site and look at the photos taken of the champions at the course, do they look like places you would wild bird hunt?

http://www.nstra.org/trialof.htm

I have seen some really nice NSTRA dogs and I have no doubt many, perhaps even most, would do well wild bird hunting, but they are not proving it at their tirals.

Neil

[RayGubernat]

I think knine hit on a very salient point.

THE DOGS DON"T CARE.

A friend of mine used a very similar argument to get me to cross register my dogs to AKC. He said that near as he could tell, his dogs did not know which organization was sponsoring the event since they could not read the premium.

All they know is there are birds out there and they get to run and find them. Can't really argue with logic like that.

Enjoy your sport, wherever and however you find it.

RayG

[trhoades]

Romeo212000 wrote:

NSTRA is not a "field trial", at least in the tradional sense of the term. It is a contest, like a horse race.

According to Merriam-Websters online Dictionary this is the definition of a field trial.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... d%20trials

Main Entry: field trial
Function: noun
Date: 1849
1 : a trial of sporting dogs in actual performance
2 : a trial of a new product in actual situations for which it is intended

I believe NSTRA falls under the field trial classification under #1

trhoades

[Neil Mace]

NSTRA is not a field trial in the traditional sense as they first practiced it in 1874 at Greenlawn Plantation in Memphis, TN about 15 miles from my house, the first US field trial.

On this retrieving thing, If you won't take my word for it (and who would blame you?), how about a guy I have breakfast with 2 or 3 times a week, Buddy Smith. Buddy is a 9 time winner of the NBHA Handler of the Year and a member of the Field Trial Hall of Fame, plus some years a 1/3 of the field at the NC at Ames has been through his program? Now those NBHA wins came when you had to have a shoot and retrieve on course, and he has said to me a couple hundred times, "All dogs will retrieve, some just won't come".

I am not saying Buddy has had more experience, just more successful experience.

I realize that is not fact, but it is personal observation with some level of credence.

I have also heard Buddy say, "Some of those Shoot to Retrieve dogs are pretty nice", which is high praise from a salty dog trainer.

If you are force breaking a dog to retrieve and he is blinking on you, you need to go back to the basics. Dog training is pretty simple stuff, it is not easy, but it is not all that complex, just lay the building blocks in order and build on them. Takes a lot of work to build a house or train a dog, but not a lot of deep thought.

Neil

[snips]

I have to disagree on a couple of points..Just because they had field trials early on does not make it the "only" field trial. Granted, I have run some NSTRA trials lacking cover, bad birds, bad this or bad that...:) BUT, I think there are T'rials all over America that there is nothing perfect everytime you run. If you counted the birds I have missed in my career you might see how many trials had GOOD birds:( After doing both I see this. I also see a dog win in NSTRA occasionally that IMO is not breeding worthy or a quality dog, but I have seen it in other FT' formats too. Sometimes I judge a dogs worth on how fast they can complete their CH. A NSTRA CH is not easy to finish, 18 pts and 3 wins when there is between 26-32 dogs running each trial. Nat'l trials have between 96-196 each trial. The final days running they may have to run 2 1/2 hours. It is pretty grueling to get to the final 4. In AKC I have seen dogs that get by with anything as long as a judge does not see them, in NSTRA a judge is watching that dog the entire time out, what a dog does on point is seen from the time he scents it til you get there so when you get that 90 on a find (or 50) it is not what the judge sees when the dog is found, it is his entire piece of work. It is a plus to get a good honor for a good score, does not seem to be a plus in other FT venues to even honor.. One field I used to run in NSTRA was over a MILE out, I have had more than one dog not point a bird until they were at the back edge. 8 minute fast walk to get there. (when I was in shape). I would ask the jugde when I arrived what my dog had been doing, and he could tell me a blow by blow, good or bad.. There are minuses and plus's to every venue, but a quality dog will pop to the front in each thing. There are always certain folks that feel they need to look down their snoot at others and to me just shows their shortcomings. There is a huge luck factor in anything you do, everything has to go just right to get there, no matter where you compete, but one thing I have found is they are all fun, esp if you win!

[romeo212000]

Good post Snips.

[Elkhunter]

Snips, that was a good post.

I run NSTRA and am planning on running in HB trials this fall also. I bout an EP that I thought was bred more for NSTRA trials, Honky Tonk Attitude stuff. He was always going like a bat out of heck. Sent him off to a trainer to break, now evidently I have a All Age screaming dog. Go figure.

Its also VERY hard to win in NSTRA. When you are competing against 30 some odd dogs it takes a special dog to win IMO. And if you cant do it consistently then thats even better. I always get horrible scores on my retrieve.

Elkhunter

[Neil Mace]

Brenda,

A NSTRA field that was a mile long? Or did it just seem like a mile? A section, 640 acres, is a mile by one mile, that is enough for 16 NSTRA fields. So unless it was only 40 feet wide, seems unlikely that it was a mile long. I don't know anyone that can see a dog at a mile with the necked eye. You can win any All-Age stake in the country with a dog that will run half of that, you can win most of them with 1/4 mile casts.

I thought we were going to stick to facts.

Neil

[ezzy333]

One field I used to run in NSTRA was over a MILE out, I have had more than one dog not point a bird until they were at the back edge. 8 minute fast walk to get there. (when I was in shape).

This sounds like fact to me whether it is unusual or not.

A NSTRA field that was a mile long? Or did it just seem like a mile? A section, 640 acres, is a mile by one mile, that is enough for 16 NSTRA fields. So unless it was only 40 feet wide, seems unlikely that it was a mile long.

This sounds like an opinion that the fact someone else stated is not true or is unusual.

NSTRA is not a field trial in the traditional sense as they first practiced it in 1874 at Greenlawn Plantation in Memphis, TN about 15 miles from my house, the first US field trial.

This sounds like fact but does not in any way indicate that any other format is not a trial.

I see many opinions and some facts from everyone. I do think most of the facts have been stated and now we are getting to the place where all that is left is to repeat or start stating our opinions about someone else'd opinion or facts.

Is it time to just lock the thread or is there more to say about what NSTRA is and not what each of us think of it?

Ezzy

[snips]

Well, the field was fairly narrow, I called it "the racetrack," because my dogs always seemed to end up pointing at the far end. Still a mile. There were fields in Mt and Az we have run in that the dog could not be seen with the naked eye at the far side. But the judges stay with them. Been on AKC courses that were practically 2 track roads thru narrow wood edges. This is my point, good and bad in everything. I think people have this mental image of what they have heard of it without all the facts. So sometimes these threads are for the best to enlighten folks. There are some great places to run trials while sometimes you gotta make due with what you got:)

[BrettBryan]

I run in NSTRA. Why? Pretty simple really. I enjoy it. I like competition. I like working with bird dogs. My reason for running in NSTRA has nothing to do with shooting a bird. I could care less about shooting a pen raised bird. I'd rather not, to be honest.

I'm not sure if it's a field trial or not. Could be a dog competition. I don't know. I do enjoy going to them whatever they are. I can go to them on the weekend, while I'm off work. I enjoy training and handling my own dogs in them. Makes me feel pretty good when we win. I lose more than i win. But, the way i see it, there are 30 more losers there beside me

I have ridden in horseback trials. I have great respect for the handlers and the dogs they run. I have seen some super nice animals. I would like to give it a try myself one day. But, at this time in my life, I just don't have the time and means to compete. Maybe one day.

For now, I'll just keep having fun running bird dogs where I can, when I can. I don't think one is better than the other. To me, both are bird dog games. Play it and have fun with your dog!

[Greg Jennings]

OK, it's out of hand. I'm locking it. Thanks to all the people that kept it it factual. Sorry I was too busy to keep it reined in.