Was I wrong?

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cesarike
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Was I wrong?

Post by cesarike » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Was up North in Wisconsin Grouse Hunting when my GWP starts to get into it with a rather large raccoon.

I yelled at her "No" and she stopped momentarily, and then started to go after the coon. I yelled "No" again then gave her a nick on the shock collar and she backed off.

Generally I use the beeper on the collar in point only mode. Over the past 2 years she has handled really well in the field and typically complies with all my commands and I have never had to zap her.

A friend stated that this type of action can ruin the dogs prey drive and I misused the collar.

I contend that I did not need to stop my hunt to run to the vet to get the dog stitched up and incur an unneccessary vet bill. Not to mention that the coon might have laid my one and only dog up for a portion if not the remainder of the hunting season.

Interested in your thoughts on this subject.

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GSPVIZ
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by GSPVIZ » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:50 pm

Well I am not sure about the training portion of your ? but my GSP got into it with a muskrat last fall and we had a $400 vet bill! :( His nose was bleeding like crazy (it looked like a murder scene in my kitchen!)

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bobman
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by bobman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:51 pm

You did right except dont say anything next time and really nail her at a high setting thats the right way to trash break a dog, keep your mouth quiet so the dog believes the coon or deer or whatever zapped her.

It won't affect her bird hunting at all
Last edited by bobman on Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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topher40
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by topher40 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:52 pm

You didnt do anything wrong, I would have BURNED the dog on high and cont. added with keeping my mouth shut. No different than a dog running a deer, light em up and keep your mouth shut. Nothing you did would worry me other than not being firm enough with the collar.
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topher40
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by topher40 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:53 pm

You beat me to it Bobman........... :lol:
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romeo212000
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by romeo212000 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:53 pm

Your buddy is blowing smoke. What you want to do is make sure he knows what kind of prey your arent after and a raccoon is one of those prey. Next time he goes after a raccoon or rabbit or something burn his butt.

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GSPVIZ
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by GSPVIZ » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:55 pm

Should this trashbreaking be done for anything other than the birds the dogs are used for?

I take my dogs to a deserted golf course every night and my dog takes off after a squirrel every time. I did zap him good when he went after a turkey though.

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topher40
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by topher40 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:59 pm

I personally dont care if its not a yote, deer, skunks, possums, coon, bobcat, horse, or cow. I have only had a dog catch one squirrel in 20 years and they usually are to busy hunting to worry about them. Turkeys I havent ever worried about either. Lots of them around but havent had to many points.
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cesarike
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by cesarike » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:38 pm

Your right about the keeping quiet part.

I got a little stoked up and lost my composure when the dog outed the coon. For the most part I have been lucky with all my dogs when it comes to critters.

Next time I'll keep quiet and apply the juice.

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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:45 pm

You not only didn't do anything wrong...you did right. Unless you plan on having your dog join a a pack of walker hounds , coons, possums, deer, and other furred game are trash and the dog needs to understand that.

I trashbreak my dogs off deer and snakes and rabbits and it does not damage their "prey drive". That is hogwash, in my opinion.

It is better if the dog thinks the trach animal is the source of the discomfort, but in the final analysis ...it doesn't really matter. The dog knows that "leave it" means just that..."leave it."

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:55 pm

The corollary of this, however, is that if you zap a dog while on point, he obviously thinks the bird is getting him. Seems rather obvious, but it happens all the time....

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dlfl
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by dlfl » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:59 pm

Off the subject but a friend of mine had a setter growing up that was a good bird dog. He got loose one night when they were coon hunting and they found him treeing with the hounds. He said that after a couple times of him getting loose to go to the hounds they gave up. He became a good night hunter and stayed a good bird dog.
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bobman
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by bobman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:30 pm

GSPVIZ wrote:Should this trashbreaking be done for anything other than the birds the dogs are used for?

I take my dogs to a deserted golf course every night and my dog takes off after a squirrel every time. I did zap him good when he went after a turkey though.
I wouldn't especially with the dog you have the doesn't want to range, my dogs love to chase squirells and a turkey is abird so I wouldn't do it over them either. Mine point a lot of turkeys.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Neil Mace » Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:28 am

Greg Jennings wrote:The corollary of this, however, is that if you zap a dog while on point, he obviously thinks the bird is getting him. Seems rather obvious, but it happens all the time....
Greg,

I don't care if he thinks it is the bird or me that tells him not to move, as long as he learns to not move. The big difference is in how high the collar is set. Trash breaking and polishing around birds are not the same thing at all. There is no corrollary. On the first you burn them, on the other you tickle.

I often hear people say to never use the collar around birds, I always think, "Other than to trash break, where else would I use it?"

Now this is from a guy that believes more dogs have been harmed than trained with e-collars, so they have to be used properly, and from your comment I am not sure you understand that.

Neil

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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by griffgirl » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:24 am

I hope the coon isnt still walking around.

My brother-in-laws DD had a mom on his back and 2 babies,one on each ear.Still had a scar on his nose before he passed at 13.He got real smart,he would circle and circle and do the pounce when the coon was unsteady.Farmers in WI WONT let you back on there land to hunt if you let a coon go.

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:07 am

Neil Mace wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:The corollary of this, however, is that if you zap a dog while on point, he obviously thinks the bird is getting him. Seems rather obvious, but it happens all the time....
Greg,

I don't care if he thinks it is the bird or me that tells him not to move, as long as he learns to not move. The big difference is in how high the collar is set. Trash breaking and polishing around birds are not the same thing at all. There is no corrollary. On the first you burn them, on the other you tickle.

I often hear people say to never use the collar around birds, I always think, "Other than to trash break, where else would I use it?"

Now this is from a guy that believes more dogs have been harmed than trained with e-collars, so they have to be used properly, and from your comment I am not sure you understand that.

Neil
Neil,

Note the word "zap" in my post. Perhaps "fry" would have been more clear, but seemed over the top.

I know pros that come down on both sides of the "on birds" topic. I know some that do themselves but tell amateurs not to.

I have no advice to give other than my previous post which, rephrased for clarity, is: "BURNing your dog while on point may lead to blinking".

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bobman
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by bobman » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:19 am

Gregs right, 90 % of the people with ecollars should put them in their drawer and forget them.

What a pro thats reading dogs all the time does is a totally different story. And even they get negative reactions and bad suprises with some dogs, the difference is they see it. Up until about 15-20 years ago nearly all non pro trained dogs were trained without collars , thats the route a first time dog owner should use. Its safer and prevents attempts at shortcuts in training and teaches people how to do things like read dogs and be patient. This collar thing is in my opinion the reason people expect finshed dogs in 1 year instead of a more realistic 2-3.

I rarely use collars for anything but trashbreaking but I guess I'm old fashioned. I know I'm getting old :D
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:27 am

bobman wrote:Gregs right, 90 % of the people with ecollars should put them in their drawer and forget them.
Now, now. That's not what I said... But I do think that people should go train with a pro before doing anything on birds.

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bobman
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by bobman » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:44 am

Yeah you didn't say that... I did, and its true :D

I'll rephrase

Gregs correct. IMO 90% of first time dog trainers should not use ecollars without supervision. Like I said I'm getting old.. and cranky :mrgreen:
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:29 am

I don't know that I'm getting crankier, but after powerwashing and sealing all my concrete and powerwashing and staining my 12'x35' (10' in the air) deck, this weekend, I'm pretty sure that I am getting older ! :cry:

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gar-dog
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by gar-dog » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:51 pm

Greg Jennings wrote: I'm pretty sure that I am getting older ! :cry:
I turned 44 this week :(

I am a newbie trainer with a collar, and I only used it to reinforce obedience type commands and a couple of times breaking the dog from digging. I find I never really use it in the field. Occassionally she gets a tap when I call her in, and only when I see her, but that's about it. I kind of wonder what I have it for now. I haven't really worked on steadying the dog yet, so maybe it could come into play, but I think I'll wait until after this season for that.

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Sharon
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:32 pm

Used to raise beagles with my Dad.
Had one go after a coon ( pre e-collar years - yes I'm very old.:) and chased it. Coon crossed a creek with the dog after it. ( planned??) Coon climbed on the dog's head and drowned it. I couldn't get a shot off for fear of hitting the dog. Bad memory.
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bobman
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by bobman » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:01 am

In 1969 I had the exact same thing happen only I jumped in an got my dog back and the living heck bit out of me by the coon, my mom wasn't too happy with me. I wasn't afraid of the coon so much as my little brother on the bank with his shotgun. I kept yelling at him not to shoot, he was aiming at the coon while I was in the middle of the tussle. Pretty funny stuff now but it could of been bad. All participants lived to fight another day!
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Greg Jennings
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:32 am

With the exception of trash breaking, I overlay the e-collar onto what I do with a check cord and then treat it like an, essentially, infinitely long check cord.

Teach 'em with the check cord first, then overlay the e.

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MTO4Life
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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by MTO4Life » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:08 pm

I've only used my collar for trashbreaking. I had to hit my dog with it this past weekend that jumped a deer and she took after it. I hit her pretty hard and she pumped the brakes pretty quick and stood looking where the deer went, then just started hunting again. Next day, she jumped a deer again, looked at it, then started chase, so I gave her another dose of juice, and she hit the brakes. Jumped a deer the third day, and she just stopped and looked at it run away. The whole time, I never said a word.... was quite effective as she runs faster than me so I can't catch her when she goes.... :wink:

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Re: Was I wrong?

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:18 pm

MTO4Life wrote:I've only used my collar for trashbreaking. I had to hit my dog with it this past weekend that jumped a deer and she took after it. I hit her pretty hard and she pumped the brakes pretty quick and stood looking where the deer went, then just started hunting again. Next day, she jumped a deer again, looked at it, then started chase, so I gave her another dose of juice, and she hit the brakes. Jumped a deer the third day, and she just stopped and looked at it run away. The whole time, I never said a word.... was quite effective as she runs faster than me so I can't catch her when she goes.... :wink:
Wow I can't believe she was still jumping deer the third day. A deer shocked mine about 3 1/2 years ago and she hasn't so much as looked sideway's at one since. Won't even slow down just a slight change in direction and pretend she didn't see it.
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