Gun Dog Forum

In Ginger's Open Puppy win, there were 8 dogs, so I think that gets her 2 points, which is all she can get out of puppy stakes towards FC status, correct? There is another trial in a couple of weeks that I may do... would it be considered inappropriate to do a puppy stake again? I would like to for the experience, but I realize if she were to place, or even win again, that takes away the opportunity for someone else. Maybe I should just focus on derby from now on. What are your thoughts?

Also, what months are considered the field trial season? Ginger was born in September, so I am thinking she only has a couple of derby chances going forward. Sounds like I will need to focus on finishing her next year, eh?

I would just concentrate on Derby now since she's maxxed out on puppy. Oh wait a minute she can run in Amateur Puppy for pts. toward her Amateur until she ages out. She most likely wont' finish next year. It can take a while to finish a FC.

When I say finish, I do mean "steady to wing and shot" - not FC. Maybe I should be saying "break/broke" instead. I realize FC could take a long time, or not happen at all

What's the difference between Amateur and just FC?

Amateur means that every point was put on by an amateur handler This would give AFC (Amateur Field Champion) title. Points from Amateur count toward FC. FC can be a title put on by a pro handler.

Yes, 8 starters = 2 points toward your FC provided they put all 8 pups down and didn't scratch any (7 or less would be 1 point). No, it wouldn't be wrong or improper to keep racking up the blue ribbons in puppy stakes. Personally, I would just do the Derby until she won her points and then wait until she is broke for the adults stakes. Some people swear against Derby all together - opinions vary. On the flip side - this is a new sport for you - so it would be beneficial to just keep at it. Get to know the people, the dogs, and the 'game'. You might also enjoy Hunting Tests.
Anthracite BC has a walking trial this weekend where you could get some Amateur points.

The rest of your questions can be answered here http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RFTPNT.pdf starting on around page 23.

So.......... how long will it be before you are asking questions about how to care for your horses?

She will be a derby for 24 months in AKC trials. So she was whelped in Sept of 2007 she has until her whelp date in Sept 2009. Actually this only gives you the spring season and rest of this fall.
The field trial season depends on how far you are willing to drive.They start in Sept, usually none in Dec. Then start in Jan till late May. There are still a lot of Britt trials on the East coast until late Nov. then start in Jan with Tar Heel and Southeastern.
I have heard that thought of not taking someone else's points. I don't agree with it and a lot of people when they have a winning puppy continue to run her.I think it is an opportunity for both of you to gain experience and have fun. When you get derby points that may be a different situation. I don't like a derby age dog to have too many opportunities on birds where I have such little control of the outcome, so once I get derby points I usually stop until I think the prospect is ready for all age.

Regarding the Field Trial Season, it starts in August out here and go's until January. In AKC the difference between Puppy, Derby and Adult is based on the actual age of the dog. I.E.

Puppy - 6 month to 15 months
Derby - 6 months to 24 months
Adult - 6 months >

I don't know who in their right mind would run in Adult stake with a 6 month old pup but I think you could.

American Field has a different system based on the time of year and is too complicated for my febel mind to understand.

Gary,

Don't worry about taking someone else's points. Let the Pro's worry about not wanting to run unless they need the points. Heck, you beat 4 professionally trained AND handled dogs this weekend in your first trial ever. Every other dog had professional training or an experienced handler. That says a lot about you and your dog. Its a competition, make them beat you. Get all the experience you and Ginger can.

Cheers!

Brent

Brittguy wrote:I don't like a derby age dog to have too many opportunities on birds where I have such little control of the outcome, so once I get derby points I usually stop until I think the prospect is ready for all age.

Frankly, I will hunt Ginger all of this season as it is. I understand there are schools of thought about too many bird contacts. I don;t know where I stand. I got Ginger to hunt and figure I will pursue the trialing thing for awhile and see what happens. (So far so good so I'll keep it up.) I am new to all of this, and have never had a hunting dog. I want to try it all and see what sticks and what my focus becomes. With three school-age kids I only can do so much for now so i just steal time when i can and will follow the path of least resistance I guess.

sambuca: Do we know all 8 dogs ran on Sunday? I didn;t hear of any scratches. Pretty cool about the pros - I didn;t know any were handling. Good luck at Anthracite. i can's go because my wife owns this Saturday. (I stole last weekend). I think I might do the del-val Derby - so I only have to sneak out for one day.

Thanks everyone,
Gary

I didn't mean that it is bad for a dog to have too many birds. What I mean is that by the time they are well into their derby time they may also be on the way to being well broke. I don't need situtations that I have little control over such as a bracemate taking out his birds or just having birds that he can catch when out of sight, or just showing him that it is alright to chase in trials but not at home.

gar-dog wrote:When I say finish, I do mean "steady to wing and shot" - not FC. Maybe I should be saying "break/broke" instead. I realize FC could take a long time, or not happen at all

What's the difference between Amateur and just FC?

Gary,
The difference between the two is Amateur vs Open stakes.
Open stakes lead to FC
Amateur lead to AFC
You can run both if you are of a mind. The only real rule is that the Professional handlers, those who accept money to train dogs, cannot run or scout in amateur stakes.
Nice jog on the win.

I think Amateur Juvenile points can be used toward the FC.

Run her in Puppy stakes while you can. I ran mine in 5 puppy stakes this fall 4 wins and a second. Some people gave me grief for taking other peoples points but they were more than welcome to beat me I just had the better dog in most cases. She'll be to old for puppy in the spring so I'll try to get her derby points we have a third in derby thus far but it's great ti get those juvenile points. Run her in another puppy stake its great experience for you both.

Rob

gar-dog wrote: i can's go because my wife owns this Saturday. (I stole last weekend). I think I might do the del-val Derby - so I only have to sneak out for one day.

You're in luck - Open Walking Derby starts at 7am on Sunday. You could be back home with a blue ribbon by noon. Just tell the wife you are going out for a newspaper.
Phone entries close at 7pm Wednesday night.

I would advise you to watch out for derby it can be trouble for a young dog. I made this mistake and I wont run derby ever again.I was like you and had some good puppy trials and moved into derby. By the end of the derby the course is loaded with poor flying birds that any dog can catch. That happened to me and it just lead to training problems that took a long time to correct. Looking back it was not worth it. I have learned to never put my dog on poor flying birds that I dont control. I would run all the puppy you can but wait until the dog is full broke before you get involved with birds that cant fly well it will save you headaches in the long run. Congrats on the win enjoy your dog and hunting season.
mm

This is interesting. I wonder if it is a 'brittney thing' (I've never been to a brittney trial) or a 'regional thing' to continue running a dog with points. Here in Georgia,--the land of 5 point juvenile stakes, wait lists and shut outs,--you'd receive one heck of a cold shoulder for denying some else the opportunity to enter his dog.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

zzweims wrote:This is interesting. I wonder if it is a 'brittney thing' (I've never been to a brittney trial) or a 'regional thing' to continue running a dog with points. Here in Georgia,--the land of 5 point juvenile stakes, wait lists and shut outs,--you'd receive one heck of a cold shoulder for denying some else the opportunity to enter his dog.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

Yep I think it is poor etiquette and a good way to make enemies especially as a newcomer to the sport.

The reason the question came up in my mind is it just feels like "bad form" to me. Or maybe I am just too nice a guy

CherrystoneWeims wrote:

zzweims wrote:This is interesting. I wonder if it is a 'brittney thing' (I've never been to a brittney trial) or a 'regional thing' to continue running a dog with points. Here in Georgia,--the land of 5 point juvenile stakes, wait lists and shut outs,--you'd receive one heck of a cold shoulder for denying some else the opportunity to enter his dog.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

Yep I think it is poor etiquette and a good way to make enemies especially as a newcomer to the sport.

I have to respectfully disagree.
Tell me one pro that refuses to run a winning pup or derby that's on their string and miss out on that handling fee? (Although I do know a couple that refuse to run Derby at all). When you are in the trial game, it is accepted that you compete with other winning dogs, period. Anything different is sour grapes.

I'd be more frustrated if it were a 'sold-out' stake full of boot-lickers that shouldn't have been put down to begin with rather than to be upset about the competition of a proven winner.

rhines wrote:

CherrystoneWeims wrote:

zzweims wrote:I have to respectfully disagree.
Tell me one pro that refuses to run a winning pup or derby that's on their string and miss out on that handling fee? .

Every single pro who wants to run a dog in Georgia, that's who. (although some try to get away with it once, they usually won't do it again)

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

I won't take sides in this arguement but lets include FC dogs still running and winning and CH dogs being shown for years after they have finished. Each case is an example of a dog taking points from another dog that still needs them. Seems like there are good arguements on bothsides and as you can see it isn't just a Brittany thing as people with everybreed continue to do it. Heck, every dog at Westminster are already Champions. I think most people do it because they pay for it and the advertisement value is important to them.

Ezzy

There is nothing wrong with running a dog after it has its points. Any dog can win. If you have the better dog so be it you'll win again. I ran in 5 puppy stakes and won 4 this fall with Dixie, every dog we ran against had the opportunity to win but she was better. I'd rather run against dogs that are running and placing than run against all the others... Better competion makes for better dogs IMO... Sure I'd like to go to a trial and run in a gundog stake where none of the other dogs were finished but that competion. Some may have other ideas than mine but these are my thoughts. Derby is another thing but still if I had a nice running derby dog with derby points I'd run said dog through that season then work on what needed worked on.

Rob

Personally, I'd stop with the juvenile stakes once you get your points. Sounds like you still have amateur puppy and both amateur and open derby points to get. So many top 10 puppy/derby dogs are never heard from again once they reach broke dog age because their owners run them in every juvenile stake they can enter. Then they can never get the dog reliably broke for adult stakes.

I don't have a problem with Ginger busting and catching birds as it is. She holds pretty well on her own, with virtually zero steadyness training - she will start to creep some when I go in on occassion. I think I will go ahead and try to get some Derby points, and Amateur Puppy if the chance arises and I can make it. Then I will probably back off a bit and get her fully-broke. She is 13 months old, and given my schedule relative to the trial season, she probably only has minimal opportunities for Derby and way less for puppy as it is. So maybe there are 2-4 trials max before next Fall I can participate in anyway, and then hopefully she'll come to the circuit again in the adult stakes when she is broke. I think that is a relatively balanced approach.

I will keep pushing along and see what happens. I kind of feel like I owe it to the dog, and it is a helluva lot of fun.

I appreciate all of the input here.

I am competitive but I also want to see others succeed, and the sport I am sure could use more people. And man, that first ribbon does a lot for your motivation. I think I will bow out of anymore Open Puppy.
G

If you have a good dog - Showcase the dog! Field trials and Dog Shows aren't about a ribbon for everyone. If someone wants to get FC points on their dog let them bring enough dog to win it. If they can't win against any and all comers, they don't have the dog to get points. Pretty cheap points if all the good dogs stay home.

Yep I think it is poor etiquette and a good way to make enemies especially as a newcomer to the sport.

I have heard that you Weim and Viz and GSP people feel that way Heck Y'all don't even run a finished FC in an Open Stake for heavene's sake! I think it was you guys that created the Open Limited Stakes to begin with .....
But in our little world of Pocket Rocket Brittanys, we usually ENCOURAGE ALL newbies to play the game for as long as they want in any stake..no hard feeling if they happen to win. In the Brittany world it is not uncommon to have to beat the reigning NFC in any given Open stake and more then likely in a stake of 30 dogs or more at least 20 of those dogs will also be finished FCs.

So Gary....go ahead...tell the wife you are running out for a newspaper this coming Sunday and go run your Ginger girl - GO GET THAT Blue!!!!

PS....as a pro's wife, I can tell you that we usually stop running our pups in the juvie stakes once they have their points NOT so much because it is bad form and greedy for us to do so, but more so that any other juveniles on our strings have the opportunity to step up to the plate and maybe take the blue too. it is one thing to have to beat the competition of the day but quite another to have to beat the pro's string of contenders first AT least that is how we look at at and it why we limit how many dogs in each stake we accept for training/campaigning. This little unwritten policy however does not hold entirely true once they have advanced to the adult stakes. Yes we still limit how many we accept but once a dog is at the stage of being ready to run for the roses we try to give them every opportunity to run and show the judges what they are made of.

zzweims wrote:[
Every single pro who wants to run a dog in Georgia, that's who. (although some try to get away with it once, they usually won't do it again)

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

Yep I know of many pro's who won't run a pup in puppy when they are maxxed out on pts.

What's the point of doing it??? There are better ways of getting puppies out on birds.

Heck Y'all don't even run a finished FC in an Open Stake for heavene's sake!

I can name several finished FC Weims who have run in Open stakes. One being the sire of my current litter. Another is on the string of the pro that I have Scarlett with.

Your trials must not fill up in your area. We have huge waiting lists to get into trials around here and if we don't let newcomers in because the stake is full then they might get discouraged.

ezzy333 wrote:I won't take sides in this arguement but lets include FC dogs still running and winning and CH dogs being shown for years after they have finished. Each case is an example of a dog taking points from another dog that still needs them. Seems like there are good arguements on bothsides and as you can see it isn't just a Brittany thing as people with everybreed continue to do it. Heck, every dog at Westminster are already Champions. I think most people do it because they pay for it and the advertisement value is important to them.

Ezzy

CH show dogs are shown as "Specials". They only compete against other finished show champions so there is no comparison. They are only taking pts. away from other "Specials". Winners Dog and Winners Bitch can beat the "Specials" though.

Westminster is a show where only Champions are shown. That is not comparison either.

I did not mean to raise your hackles Pam. My apologies. I had heard that and was recently told by a GSP guy that was the policy across the board for everyone but Britts. I prolly shouldn't have taken his word at gospel, huh?

In my current region which is the Eastern Central zone our trials are routinely 5 pt majors in the gun dog stakes. I have only ever seen a 4 pt major in a puppy stake but maybe twice, in all my years of trialling.....and mostly when the trial is attached to a big championship. In fact, my own puppy Jade ( CH Wild Mtn's Lone Star Rendezvous) won her puppy points in Idaho in the Spring of 2005 where there were 19 starters! http://www.akc.org/events/search/index_ ... action=eve. The Idaho Brittany Club's Spring trial preceeded the AKC National Pointing Breed Gun Dog Championship that year.

Gary -

One of the things I really like about American Field and AFTCA competitions is how the dogs attain championship status. Dogs must go to and compete in a championship stake against all comers, who are also in search of a championship. In such a field of entrants, there will undoubtedly be several dogs that are of championship caliber, so if your dog wins or gets RU, they have beaten some of the best dogs kin the area.. simply put...you done somethin'.

I agree with Scott...if your dog isn't good enough to beat the best dogs in the area then it doesn't deserve to win. If it doesn't HAVE to beat those other dogs because their owners didn't enter them... what did that trial do to improve the breed?

One of the things I truly enjoy when going to an AKC trial is the competition. I am bringing longtails to a short tail event in many cases. To place, the dog usually has to do a very good job. To place first and win points in a shorthair trial, for example...a pointer has gotta win it and more than that, they gotta win it HARD. When and if one of my dogs places or takes first in such a trial...I know I got something done. To me that is very gratifying.

I say if your dog is ready for derby...run it. I am not real big on running in puppy stakes in general, because of the potential for "unscheduled and unsupervised" bird contacts, but if the dog is ready for derby stakes...why not?

Go have fun with your dog. That is a lot of what trialing should be about anyway.

RayG

Well ... there a couple of ways to discourage newcomers.
One could be to continue to run a pointed dog and keep their dogs from winning. Another could be to pressure a newcomer to stop running their dog because it already has its points.

My opinion is - do what is best for your dog. If your dog needs the ground time, keep running it. If it's time to put the dog up, but you keep running it because you want to get it as high in the top 10 as possible - and end up creating a whole slew of problems that you'll have to go back and fix later - well, reap what you sow.

Personally, I've seen more points wasted on dogs that won puppy/derby and proceeded to drop off the face of the earth and never enter a single adult stake - than I have on pointed dogs that kept running.

Incidentally - Aline, I know of a few pros in Georgia that have or are currently running pointed dogs. It never struck me as forbidden up there. You've obviously been to more trials in Georgia than I have, though, so maybe I have the wrong impression.

IMO, After getting the puppy points and derby points, I quit entering them. It has more to do with the dog learning poor habits that will have to be broken later. I never considered whether I was making it more difficult for someone to get their points. Isn't that what competition is about?
More often than not, the birds at trials aren't the strongest flyers. By definition, a derby dog doesn't have to honor or be broke to wing and shot. These circumstances significantly increase the odds of the dog catching birds or having point stolen etc..... No sense subjecting yourself to such a training obstacle to overcome later. Get your points and then hunt the dog on as many wild birds as possible. There is no such thing as too much bird contact.......only too much "pen raised" bird contact in an uncontrolled environment.

ps Lying to the wife will always come back to haunt you!!!! Get her involved so that when you start shopping for horses she will be excited instead of fighting you!

The discussion about whether to run a dog in puppy and derby when it already has its points has caught my interest. Here is the concern I have after reading this thread. If you quit running a young dog in puppy and derby because you do not want to keep another dog from getting its points, aren't you in fact allowing lessor quality dogs to get closer to being titled. Being that trials were invented so that the best studs could be determined, not running because your dog has earned its points as a puppy or has earned its championship seems counter productive.
Personally, I would rather run against the better dogs and prove my dogs there, than to run against dogs that may be of a lessor quality. Just a thought.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:Run her in Puppy stakes while you can. I ran mine in 5 puppy stakes this fall 4 wins and a second. Some people gave me grief for taking other peoples points but they were more than welcome to beat me I just had the better dog in most cases. She'll be to old for puppy in the spring so I'll try to get her derby points we have a third in derby thus far but it's great ti get those juvenile points. Run her in another puppy stake its great experience for you both.

Rob

I agree. Enjoy these years. Before you know it you will be at "Shooting Dog" and you'll be missing some fun because she's "not ready yet". Probably won't happen to you though.
The jump from derby to Shooting Dog is huge. jmo -

PS That's why I run under the American Field ( AFTCA) - no points to worry about. May the best dog win. And if he/she can still win at 8 years of age or comes to our Canadian Championship and wins it for the third time ? - Good for him/her.

John Palladino and No Boundaries

Gary,

Do what makes you feel best. Personally, I wouldn't want anyone holding back a dog they wanted to run so that I had a better chance of getting points. I would want to know where my dog stands against its competition. At the same time I fully understand not wanting to risk having your dog catching and eating birds once you have the points.

I don't know how to get this information but, given the topic, it would be interesting to know if any of the dogs in Sunday's stakes already have their points.

Brent

I don't know how to get this information but, given the topic, it would be interesting to know if any of the dogs in Sunday's stakes already have their points.

Brent, that is easy enough to look up if you have the registered names of all the pups in the stake All of that info is now available on the AKC website. But like you and others said.....run the dog if you want to run Gary! Don't hold back as a courtesy to anyone. This is a game of competition and may the best dog of the day be the winner.