EP sire question

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birdogg42
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Re: EP sire question

Post by birdogg42 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:32 pm

That is one good looking avatar! I have two miller silver ending X redemptions reward females coming in a couple weeks. Cant wait to get my hands on them pups.

R-Heaton

Re: EP sire question

Post by R-Heaton » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:15 am

How do ya tell if a dog is a good wild bird dog or a good pen raised bird dog?

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:23 am

How do ya tell if a dog is a good wild bird dog or a good pen raised bird dog?
I was wondering about that myself. :D

My best bird dogs were good bird dogs period. They would find them no matter what they smelled like. :D

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:43 am

RayGubernat wrote:On lines...I would pick Guard Rail over anything Miller, except Chief...hands down for the kind of bird dog I need. Miller dogs are at their best on wild or nearly wild birds. Heavily Miller bred dogs do not do well on a steady diet of liberated birds. You do not see Miller breeding on both top and bottom of any dogs on the Shooting dog circuit in the Northeast which is all liberated birds, essentially. You actually see relatively few with Miller close up on one side. If the heavily bred Miller dogs were winning trials in the Northeast...everyone would have them, and you can take that to the bank. They don't... and haven't. Where I trial and hunt there are virtually no wild birds. Guard Rail bred dogs seem to be able to maintain their composure, style and intensity... over time, on a steady diet of liberated birds, and can also handle the occasional wild bird exposure.

Of the individual dogs alive today, Sugarknoll Buckshot is probably the best birdfinder I have seen personally. I also hear very good things about Rock Acre Blackhawk but I have not seen him or too many of his get...yet. One of the nicer moving dogs I have seen is Lester's Thunderbird and Mowhawk Mill Ride moves pretty well also. I do like the way Mowhawk Mill Sportster seems to want to stay with his handler. That is impressive for an all age dog.
I do not want to seem combative, but, I cannot agree. Bird dogs are bird dogs. Most will introduce a dog to wild birds before working liberated birds, simply because if a dog can handle a wild bird it will certainly do well with liberated.

I would think the Northeast provides a different topography than say; the South or Midwest. It is similar to the phrase, "Horses for courses". I would not think the thick cover of the Northeast would take advantage of the Miller Line's attributes.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:19 pm

birdogg42 wrote:Ray, so you are saying if you were wanting a big running, nothing but a wild bird dog then MIller is the way to go?????

It would certainly make sense to me to consider heavily Miller bred dogs if you were exclusively oe predominantly wild bird hunting in big country. That IS what they seem to excel at.

Power point -

I have no doubt about your ability to train your dogs on liberated birds. All I ask is that you check the records for the last couple of dozen years. The most successful shooting dog handlers in the nation are here in the Northeast. That is a fact, not an opinion. They do not currently have and have not had HEAVILY Miller bred dogs in their string for many years. That is also a fact, not an opinon.

Why? Go ask them!

I am certain in my own mind that if the most succdessful shooting dog trainers/handlers in the nation felt that Miller dogs were the way to continue to win...that is what they would have in their strings.

Ross -

Guard Rail and Miller does seem to be a very good cross. I am interested to see if the Blackhawk stuff continues to live up to the hype. They sure do seem to have tons of style, but then with the Fiddler back in there, style is an expectation.

I also like Miller(or something else) mixed in with Redemption's Reward breeding. I think Reward was one of the more underrated sires in the recent past and the pointer breed is the poorer for it. He seemed to throw the kind dogs that had so much desire that you couldn't keep them from hunting , no matter what.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:35 pm

scotly50 wrote -

"Most will introduce a dog to wild birds before working liberated birds, simply because if a dog can handle a wild bird it will certainly do well with liberated."

I am not sure about the first part of your statement, but I actually completely disagree with your conclusion. I find EXACTLY the opposite to be true. I find that if a dog can handle liberated birds well, it will almost certainly handle wild birds properly.

It is far, far more frequent to have a dog that is dead steady and stylish on wild birds to flag, creep and even attempt to catch liberated birds, than it is the other way 'round.

At least that has been my experience.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:04 pm

RayGubernat wrote:scotly50 wrote -

"Most will introduce a dog to wild birds before working liberated birds, simply because if a dog can handle a wild bird it will certainly do well with liberated."

I am not sure about the first part of your statement, but I actually completely disagree with your conclusion. I find EXACTLY the opposite to be true. I find that if a dog can handle liberated birds well, it will almost certainly handle wild birds properly.

It is far, far more frequent to have a dog that is dead steady and stylish on wild birds to flag, creep and even attempt to catch liberated birds, than it is the other way 'round.

At least that has been my experience.

RayG
Well we will have to disagree. That's okay by me. But I will just continue to send my pups up north on wild birds every summer, like most all of the other trial dog handlers. :wink:

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:32 pm

RayGubernat wrote:scotly50 wrote -

"Most will introduce a dog to wild birds before working liberated birds, simply because if a dog can handle a wild bird it will certainly do well with liberated."

I am not sure about the first part of your statement, but I actually completely disagree with your conclusion. I find EXACTLY the opposite to be true. I find that if a dog can handle liberated birds well, it will almost certainly handle wild birds properly.

It is far, far more frequent to have a dog that is dead steady and stylish on wild birds to flag, creep and even attempt to catch liberated birds, than it is the other way 'round.

At least that has been my experience.

RayG
Much agred on that Ray, for example no wild bird would pull BS like walking betwen a dogs legs, re: the NBHA NC four or five years back. Lots of stupid things libs will pull that requires breaking beyond wild bird abilitys. Plus what you and I talked about via PM on Miller dogs and libs, think I will listen to the source of the blood ya know. :wink:

Ya might want to reconsider your stance on the NOSD dogs though since 01 Gunsmoke's Single Barrel, Calico's Lap Dancer, Spirit's Blaze and Weber's Little Bullett were from Miller blood in the first two gens, Calico dogs are pretty heavy Miller(also Rail). Ferrel himself bred bred Little Bullet matter of fact. I do assume you are talking Hb shooting Dogs and not walking. But even in walking Bruce up at Hi Five has done quite well with his heavily Miller blooded dogs.

BTW sent ya a PM ya ,might look at in regard to our DNA discussion. Something sure is fishy with how them "Elhews" look dont ya think.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:52 pm

My pups get heavy doses of libbys before they ever see a wild bird. They learn to find, bump and chase libbys. They develop the lust of birds on libbys. Then, when they are ready, they learn proper manners using both pigeons and libbys.

Wild birds teach my pups "how" to find birds ....and "where" to find birds. My pups see wild birds last. I guess if I lived elsewhere or headed north in the summer I may do it differently, but here in the southeast I have to work with what I have.

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:17 pm

It has been my experience that a dog trained on lib's will bump wild birds, generally requiring additional training.

I know wild birds are so few these days it is nearly impossible for trainers to use wild birds solely in breaking dogs. And even if they did most would not like young dogs busting up their nests. I have always been under the impression working dogs on lib's were more of convenience than the ideal.

Also at Ames, it did not seem that a rampant "flagging" and "diving in" problem going on with the dogs on lib's.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:37 pm

scotly50 wrote:It has been my experience that a dog trained on lib's will bump wild birds, generally requiring additional training.

I know wild birds are so few these days it is nearly impossible for trainers to use wild birds solely in breaking dogs. And even if they did most would not like young dogs busting up their nests. I have always been under the impression working dogs on lib's were more of convenience than the ideal.

Also at Ames, it did not seem that a rampant "flagging" and "diving in" problem going on with the dogs on lib's.
Scotly I have started several dozens of dogs on libs and have not had that problem in the least. It's all in how ya train em. I have a litter of 8 month olds I that were on libs all summer and yesterday they did fine on the wild birds we hunted, did not bump one covey even the ones we could see running through the mesquite and sparse grass where we were. Libs aint the ideal for sure, especially if ya do the bump and chase stuff, but they aint the bane that so many "trainers" on the web say they are. Like I said all in how ya train.

Ames birds are not libs so to speak they are early release that have been in the wild for several months and had constant pressure by trials, biologists, predators and trainers. From what I have heard from some who have been there ya cant tell much difference at all. This pic was on lib Tenn Reds, the rest of the covey aside from this one bird flushed to the front, the smart one went out the back door as ya see by the pic. Never seen a true lib show that kinda smarts and the birds at Ames get way more pressure than these birds have.
Image

birdsandbirds

Re: EP sire question

Post by birdsandbirds » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:45 pm

I believe that the birds at Ames this year were released on Sat before the trial started on Monday. Then another batch was released the next weekend....

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:48 pm

I have 11 Johnny Houses spaced out on two training courses. Our birds are very well flight conditioned and are rarely ever caught. They do not fly as well as wild birds ....but they are danged close. :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:18 pm

birdsandbirds wrote:I believe that the birds at Ames this year were released on Sat before the trial started on Monday. Then another batch was released the next weekend....
Could be this year but not in previous years. Did not check much this year so I cant say.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by oakcreek » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:24 pm

Am I the only one that has trouble calling what Miller did cheating. Most people cheat in order to win, he bred dogs to lesser stud dogs then the original papers showed and still produced champions. I don't know why he did it, he didn't have to. I guess I am more aw struck then anything.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by ACooper » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:37 pm

scotly50 wrote:It has been my experience that a dog trained on lib's will bump wild birds, generally requiring additional training.

I know wild birds are so few these days it is nearly impossible for trainers to use wild birds solely in breaking dogs. And even if they did most would not like young dogs busting up their nests. I have always been under the impression working dogs on lib's were more of convenience than the ideal.

Also at Ames, it did not seem that a rampant "flagging" and "diving in" problem going on with the dogs on lib's.

The dogs I have seen that bumped wild birds excessively were allowed to crowed liberated birds, you know the old let them get a little closer and really staunch up. Well if a dog is allowed to crowd liberated birds, that usually will put up with a lot of crowding, it is dang sure going to try to crowd wild birds that wont put up with any crowding.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:09 pm

scotly50 wrote:It has been my experience that a dog trained on lib's will bump wild birds, generally requiring additional training.

I know wild birds are so few these days it is nearly impossible for trainers to use wild birds solely in breaking dogs. And even if they did most would not like young dogs busting up their nests. I have always been under the impression working dogs on lib's were more of convenience than the ideal.

Also at Ames, it did not seem that a rampant "flagging" and "diving in" problem going on with the dogs on lib's.

It has been my experience that a dog that is thoroughly schooled on libbys will almost certainly get too close to the first wild birds it encounters. With no additional training, but with some additional experience, the dogs seem to figure out for themselves(generally in a couple of days or less), how close they can get without busting them.


The real value of wild birds, in my opinion, was touched on by a previous poster. Wild birds teach a dog where and how to hunt. If someone were to say that they let their dogs bump and chase wild birds as yongsters in order for the birds to imprint on the young dog the ability to know how and where to seek the birds, I absolutely will not argue with that.

Wild birds are what they are, are where they are and they do what they do. If a dog wants to find wild birds in the early morning and in th early evening it needs to look in the places the birds should be at those times. if the dog wants to find birds during the balance of the day, it needs to know where to look for them then. This obviously varies with terrain, speicies and weather conditions and the only way to get a dog accustomed to this and proficient at finding them is through experience.

Everyone trains their dogs differently. Lots of different ways work and work well for different folks in different circumstances. I personally prefer to have the brakes and steerng installed and working reasonably well before I take the car out for a high spped trip around the racetrack. I find I have fewer wrecks that way.

As I stated previously, for myself, and I am sure many other swho live in my area, training with liberated birds is not a "convenience". It is a necessity...there ain't no wild birds.

The last point about Ames is a real red herring. The birds there are pre-released...weeks and months prior to being pursued by men and dogs. They are, I am sure, as close to wild birds, in as close to sustainable conditions as the research folks at the Univeristy can manage. Also, the dogs that comete at Ames are ALL CHAMPIONS. All have withstood the tests that trials can put on them and excelled...multiple times. And even those superlative dogs still occasionally screw up because they are not machines.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Duane -

Single Barrel was, as I recall, fairly heavily Miller bred. However, i don't ever remember seeing him in the Northeast(except perhaps one time he may have gone to Ontario) when in the hunt for the DOY award. I seem to remember him doing most of his winning down South.

Not sure about the breeding on two of the dogs you mentioned but Calico's Lap Dancer was not "heavily"" Miller bred, in my opinion. There was some Miller in there, for certain, but it was not shot through in the same manner as a dog like , Bullett, White Powderor Dateline Excel, whom I consider to be very heavily Miller bred. Lap Dancer had, as you noted a considerable amount of Guard Rail and Pork Roll blood in there. I could not find an online pedigree for Lap Dancer, but I believe she was a littermate to Thrillogy. If that is the case, then in actuality there is far more Rebel blood in there than Miller and more Guard Rail and Pork Roll than anything else.

Heck...it is darn near impossible to find a dog these days that actually runs a lick that does not have Miller blood in there somewhere. There is Miller blood in each and every one of my own dogs and I am sure it is a postive addition to their genetic ability as bird dogs. That is not, and never was my assertion.

My point was that heavy Miller breeding(top and bottom---close in) and heavy continuous doses of liberated birds is not a good, long term combination. I believe the facts support my position.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:14 am

RayGubernat wrote:Duane -

Single Barrel was, as I recall, fairly heavily Miller bred. However, i don't ever remember seeing him in the Northeast(except perhaps one time he may have gone to Ontario) when in the hunt for the DOY award. I seem to remember him doing most of his winning down South.

Not sure about the breeding on two of the dogs you mentioned but Calico's Lap Dancer was not "heavily"" Miller bred, in my opinion. There was some Miller in there, for certain, but it was not shot through in the same manner as a dog like , Bullett, White Powderor Dateline Excel, whom I consider to be very heavily Miller bred. Lap Dancer had, as you noted a considerable amount of Guard Rail and Pork Roll blood in there. I could not find an online pedigree for Lap Dancer, but I believe she was a littermate to Thrillogy. If that is the case, then in actuality there is far more Rebel blood in there than Miller and more Guard Rail and Pork Roll than anything else.

Heck...it is darn near impossible to find a dog these days that actually runs a lick that does not have Miller blood in there somewhere. There is Miller blood in each and every one of my own dogs and I am sure it is a positive addition to their genetic ability as bird dogs. That is not, and never was my assertion.

My point was that heavy Miller breeding(top and bottom---close in) and heavy continuous doses of liberated birds is not a good, long term combination. I believe the facts support my position.

RayG
Most of the time I avoid conversations such as this because they always seem to degenerate into a, "I am right, You are wrong", argument. it is refreshing to see it remain civil.

Like it or not, Miller's contributions to the English Pointer breed should not be diminished, or underestimated. Why, he allowed himself to be put into the situation he is in, is beyond me.

Yawallac's situation with the 11 Johnnie houses, seems he is using as good a method with Lib's as i have heard set-up. I would imagine his birds act much like wild birds.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:44 am

scotly50 -

I would never deliberately diminish the efforts or positive impact that Mr. Miller, or Mr. Whele or any other breeders who have actively worked to advance the breed, has had.

Folks have dedicated significant portions of their lives and their resources to the advancement of the breeds. That should always be recognized and appreciated. It is because of these efforts to both expand and to refine the talents and abilities of our dogs that we have the great dogs that we have today.

It is because of this foundation work that such phenomenal outcrosses, such as Guard Rail(Elhew/Rebel) came to be, and through his prepotency, what is essentially a new line, with a distinct combination of genetic talents, came into being.

I agree that it is great to have a spirited discussion, with differeing viewpoints, because that is how we all have the opportunity to get "outside the box" and learn some things.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:25 am

Ray,

When a man, (ie Ferrell Miller), can dominate the ultra competitive all-age circuit as he did both as a handler and breeder, there is certainly something there everyone could learn from . Ferrell knew what he wanted and he was willing to work for it.

As a breeder, when a great deal of Miller bred dogs, keep showing up at the Nationals, it does not happen by accident. It is very calculated planning and evaluation of his breedings were unmatched. Many successful breeders now owe, and give credit for their success, to his model. I am certain they would not mind me mentioning some of the more notables; such as Gary Lester, Joe Don House, and even the setter boys, Jack Elliott. Jack's Hytest kennels were languishing in mediocrity, (their words not mine), until seeking out the advice of Ferrell, when taken turned their program around. (Even though Ferrell did not think they could do it with Setters !!) These guys have turned into some of the leading breeders today. Oh, by the way, good luck getting a pup from these guys.

I like his philosophy, "You cannot judge what you don't see", and "you have got to shoot your gun". Those two tidbits are what made him what he became. The genius is always in the detail.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:42 pm

Scotly50 -

I think what really made Mr. Miller was a tremendous work ethic, a clear vision of what he was trying to produce, attention to detail, the willingness to cull, the willingness to put the necessary resources to work and the singleminded determination to adhere to his vision and drive to success. For all of that, and what he has accomplished with his dogs, he has my respect.

I do not want an open all age dog. I do not want a dog that will be able to win on the praries in open competition. I am not really comfortable with that knd of dog. Running such a dog would be outside my financial limitations for one and while running such a dog is exhilarating, it is also very worrisome to me and that just plain ain't fun for me. I have trouble letting go to the extent necessary to compete effectively in all age competition. My preference runs more toward a big running shooting dog, actually.

If one did want a dog that could scorch the praries, win in wild bird trials there and win at the National at Ames, one would have to consider heavily bred Miller breeding...among others.

That is not where I want to go with my sport, so I have many other choices.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:49 pm

oakcreek wrote:Am I the only one that has trouble calling what Miller did cheating. Most people cheat in order to win, he bred dogs to lesser stud dogs then the original papers showed and still produced champions. I don't know why he did it, he didn't have to. I guess I am more aw struck then anything.

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No. See Ray's post. :)
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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:11 pm

Sharon wrote:
oakcreek wrote:Am I the only one that has trouble calling what Miller did cheating. Most people cheat in order to win, he bred dogs to lesser stud dogs then the original papers showed and still produced champions. I don't know why he did it, he didn't have to. I guess I am more aw struck then anything.

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Elhew Strike, Dateline, A rambling rebel, mrawsom, Go boy, fiddler

No. See Ray's post. :)
Got much more of a problem with those who have been caught and not punished just due to paying fines myself as well as "hunting dog" kennels who's dogs will never be trialed let alone win a CH where DNA is required. Plus from looking at several sites I can tell ya that some dogs sure as heck aint bred how the owners say they are. I see supposed Elhews with more white than some Miller dogs and real whippy tails more like Fiddler than Elhew. Not to mention dogs I see sired supposedly by dogs I know have been dead longer than the advertised dogs has been alive. I wonder just how many dogs that people advertise would pass DNA to be honest from the physical traits they exhibit. How many of you have DNAed your own dogs voluntarily? If not then why?

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:38 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Scotly50 -

I think what really made Mr. Miller was a tremendous work ethic, a clear vision of what he was trying to produce, attention to detail, the willingness to cull, the willingness to put the necessary resources to work and the singleminded determination to adhere to his vision and drive to success. For all of that, and what he has accomplished with his dogs, he has my respect.

I do not want an open all age dog. I do not want a dog that will be able to win on the praries in open competition. I am not really comfortable with that knd of dog. Running such a dog would be outside my financial limitations for one and while running such a dog is exhilarating, it is also very worrisome to me and that just plain ain't fun for me. I have trouble letting go to the extent necessary to compete effectively in all age competition. My preference runs more toward a big running shooting dog, actually.

If one did want a dog that could scorch the praries, win in wild bird trials there and win at the National at Ames, one would have to consider heavily bred Miller breeding...among others.

That is not where I want to go with my sport, so I have many other choices.

RayG
My point was not an advertisement for the all-age circuit. It was for Ferrell's model for breeding a dog dog that will win. Whatever venue. Miller would have dominated the shooting dog circuit, or the grouse woods, just as he did in all-age.

Happy trails in "your" sport. That is why there are many different trials to enter a dog. I am not a professional trainer but I have always been told, "You cannot make a dog run, but you can always reel him in".

By the Way, watched the Quail Championship in Kentucky with half the field Miller bred dogs and did not see one dog "flag" or "dive in" on any of the liberated quail they pointed. :wink:

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:19 pm

Scotly50 -

Not surprising about the good manners on the dogs there. They are indeed some of the best.

I was braced with Lester's Thunderbird last year in VA, so I know a bit about what he can do. I would actually have been braced with Tommy Liesfeld and Thunderbird again this year(with a different dog of mine)at the same trial but for the fact my wife took a spill and got hurt, nixing our plans to attend at the last minute. I was looking forward to seeing and competing against Gary Winall's two dogs that were also at the Invitational and a few others that were entered. Three of the dogs at this year's Invitational were from VA, so they have a few dogs down that way that can run a lick. Jim Jones has a dandy young setter that I would have liked to watch on those grounds. I actually really wanted to watch Sportster run and handle. He might just be the kind of all age dog that I want a piece of in my dogs, but I gotta see with my own eyes. Oh well, there is always next year.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:48 pm

I watched a pretty nice setter yesterday.

Jetsetter is the dogs name. He had had style and run. He ran hard and was plenty fast. He came up from the rear once then ended up lost. I am sure he has had better days, but alot fancier than I had anticipated. Skyhawk is by far the best setter I have watched. I think he has Miller in him. :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birdsandbirds » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:47 pm

By the Way, watched the Quail Championship in Kentucky with half the field Miller bred dogs and did not see one dog "flag" or "dive in" on any of the liberated quail they pointed.


Wonder why that is :wink: Miller dogs are just different from all the rest plain and simple. If Ferrel had lived in Pa and wanted to dominate the grouse circuit he could have done it just as easy as he did it in the AA stakes. It is the brain power behind the scenes that wins on gameday. No matter what game you are playing the same rules apply.

Scotly50. Have you saw Happy Jack?

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:46 pm

Anybody remember the 2007 National champion??

His name was Funseeker's Rebel. Check out his pedigree...no Miller at all in four generations. Tons of Rebel and a double dip of Guard Rail back in there on the dam's side.

How 'bout dat?

See boys...not everybody thinks Miller is the only way to go for all age dogs. I wonder how the Robinson's dogs are bred? You know Redemption, Redemption's Reward, Handsome Reward...you know that stuff. Seems to me that I don't recall too much Miller blood in those dogs. I hear them dogs can even run a lick too. Amazing, ain't it.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:31 pm

Shoot Ray theres other examples outside that Trailrider had none, heck he was straight out SD lines and not even a natural AA dog. Remember I knew Bill before Gary(RIP) knew him and still say his brother Rip was the better dog, but Gary managed to stretch him out on the Praries and Texas to get him at a respectable AA race. Point is no other line has dominated the scene in AA like them there white dogs have, none. Just like in SD lines Elhew is tough to beat, dependent on the branch of the line of course. Take a look clsoe and you will see both those lines producing winners from Walking stakes to AA, yeah I know very few AA Elhews out there. :wink: Good dogs is good dogs and the best handle it all.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:24 pm

Duane -

You said:

"Good dogs is good dogs and the best handle it all."

I completely agree with that statement.

I will however reserve judgement on your conclusions about Elhew dogs being tough to beat...Swami, Sunflower and their get excepted. If you had said Calico dogs, I would have agreed with that but as you know, Quackie and Frankie are not shy about using the best that they can, from whatever line, All age or Shooting dog.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:43 pm

There are not a great deal of stud interest in Funseeker's Rebel because of his breeding.

I was told by a prominent, very well known AA breeder recently, they went into the Grouse dogs to pick up style in their line. (After consulting Ferrell Miller about how to breed winning dogs in AA, "who da thunk it") Worked out really well judging by their results. Miller always wanted style and a great nose in his dogs. They were the foundations that he built on. It is common to think Miller bred for run, which he did but never at the expense of style and bird finding ability. There were other lines that featured extreme range, greater than Miller's line. But Ferrell liked the judges to see his dogs, and when they did, he wanted them to see style, and as important, he wanted to shoot his gun over his dogs pointing.

birdsandbirds

Re: EP sire question

Post by birdsandbirds » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:49 pm

scotly50 wrote:There are not a great deal of stud interest in Funseeker's Rebel because of his breeding.

I was told by a prominent, very well known AA breeder recently, they went into the Grouse dogs to pick up style in their line. (After consulting Ferrell Miller about how to breed winning dogs in AA, "who da thunk it") Worked out really well judging by their results. Miller always wanted style and a great nose in his dogs. They were the foundations that he built on. It is common to think Miller bred for run, which he did but never at the expense of style and bird finding ability. There were other lines that featured extreme range, greater than Miller's line. But Ferrell liked the judges to see his dogs, and when they did, he wanted them to see style, and as important, he wanted to shoot his gun over his dogs pointing.

Ray

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Re: EP sire question

Post by BrettBryan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:17 pm

I hate to change the subject some, but has anyone ever heard of a bitch named Bear Creek Bess? I had a couple fellows a few years back said that she would scorch the prarie. I was curious to what her breeding went back to. I have never really found much information on her. I did see a picture of her up at the Bird Dog Museum though. I always wondered what her lineage was.
Great opinions so far. I love hearing them. Keep it up.
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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:39 pm

BrettBryan -

Bear Creek Bess was by Go Boy's Shadow out of Hendrick's First Lady. Same breeding as Lehar's Main Tech.

Never saw either dog but from what I read, they really put it out there.

RayG

PS - Hendrick's First Lady was by Miller's Chief out of Guard Rail Susan.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:19 pm

Scotly50 -

Well I just might be contrary, but I kinda like Funseeker's Rebel's breeding. I happen to like Rebel breeding in a shooting dog. But I also like Evolution/Endurance and Hook's Bounty Hunter breeding in my dogs. I would have to see what the dog looked like when running and how it handled however because many all age dogs simply don't run with enough of a merry tail and some don't handle all that kindly. Those two atributes are crucial to me.

Where I trial, if(in addition to everything else) the dog does not cover the ground with a merry tail, it is going to have an uphill battle when it comes to placing in major stakes. A high, cracking tail would be even better. A dog that runs with a floating tail has to be spectacular in other aspects, and that is a tall order. Where I trial the courses are tight and often have sharp turns. The cover is often so thick with multiflora and greenbrier that if a dog gets off and the course turns away, the dog often has no option but to come from the rear...and that never looks good. If the dog don't handle real well...you ain't gonna win much.

As far as going to cover dogs to improve the style aspects of a line, that is very logical. Cover dogs tend to be a little smaller in size, have blazing fast foot speed and run with tons of snap, crackle and pop. Real fancy. If they don't...they don't win.

All that fancy and foot speed has a price however. Just like everything else...there ain't no free lunch. You breed to improve one thing and often lose a little... somewhere else.

RayG

birdsandbirds

Re: EP sire question

Post by birdsandbirds » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:26 pm

Ray , you are going to argue no matter what. You are anti Miller and that is all there is too it you cannot ever find anything good to say about them ever. Since you seem to have all the breeding scenios down pat, i guess we should just call you the new age Ferrel Miller.

How many true Miller dogs have you ever owned or for that matter ever watched? you have said yourself no one runs Miller dogs on the east coast so i am doubting you have saw very many.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:59 pm

Great post Ray. This is a great thread.

I love Shooting Dogs! I love everything about them, how they go, how they handle, the animation, the style, everything!!

We have some extremely well bred shooting dog females in our kennel. Direct daughters of Guard Rail, Addition's Go Boy, Honky Tonk Attitude, Shadow's Attitude, Blackhawk, etc. Great looking girls with animation to die for.... BUT I prefer to breed them to All Age studs or big going Shooting Dogs.

Why? because I want to maintain the run in them. I recently bred several of our girls to one of our in house studs, Duke. He is not titled but he has absolutely everything in an All Age package and his pedigree fits perfectly. He has as much run as any dog I have ever owned, he flat out gets it, he has a great nose, high intelligence and is fairly biddable. His only negative is that he runs with a lower tail than what it would take to win in the Shooting Dog world. On point he is straight up.

I bred to him because of all the pluses and left it to my gals to put the tail in the pups. So far, all of the litters have their momma's tails (thank goodness). It's too soon to tell if his run and all the good qualities that I see in him will show. I obviously really like the boy to breed our big time females to him ...and it was a bit of a risk. Hopefully he'll throw some of his grand dad's abilities (Guard Rail....with some White Powder mixed in). :D

BTW, three Guard Rail straws left.......

Duke
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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:45 pm

Birdsandbirds -

You really need to read what I have written. You have it quite wrong.

I have the greatest respect for what Mr. Miller has done with his dogs. His accomplishments are absolutely awesome in the all age arena. I have never said anything any different than that. Never will. What he has done is in the record books. Facts.

That has nothing to do with the FACT that heavily bred Miller dogs do not do well where I trial . I don't know why you can't get that. Geeez - Heavily Miller bred dogs also do not do well in cover dog trials. So what?

If I choose to deal with facts, why does that make me anti anything except misconceptions and misinformation? Your singleminded fixation with Miller breeding as all things to all people, in the face of facts, befuddles me.

Now, if I said that an Indy racecar might not be the best choice if you were contemplating a Baja run though the desert, even Danica Patrick would agree, I think. However, if you took the engine from an Indy car and put it in a dune buggy body...you might have something!

The fact is...Rebel bred dogs seem to do well where I trial when that rebel blood is dialed down a bit. Calico's Rebellious Sue was heavy with Rebel and Evolution and she did well enough to get elected into the Hall of Fame as a shooting dog. Guard Rail was as much Rebel bred as he was Elhew, and he also seemed to do pretty well also. Calico's Thrillogy was a blending of Pork Roll, Guard Rail, Rebel and Evolution that seemed to work rather well. The fact is...that judicious additions of Miller blood(and other all age lines) to do indeed seem to have had a positive impact on shooting dogs. It is my hope and expectation that they will continue to do so.

It is almost a certainty that the conditions under which you train and trial and hunt are quite different than those which I find myself. Is it too much to ask that you consider that widely different circumstance might just favor different dogs or do you insist that one size(Miller) must fit all?

Think about it.

RayG

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:46 pm

Yawallac wrote:Great post Ray. This is a great thread.

I love Shooting Dogs! I love everything about them, how they go, how they handle, the animation, the style, everything!!

We have some extremely well bred shooting dog females in our kennel. Direct daughters of Guard Rail, Addition's Go Boy, Honky Tonk Attitude, Shadow's Attitude, Blackhawk, etc. Great looking girls with animation to die for.... BUT I prefer to breed them to All Age studs or big going Shooting Dogs.

Why? because I want to maintain the run in them. I recently bred several of our girls to one of our in house studs, Duke. He is not titled but he has absolutely everything in an All Age package and his pedigree fits perfectly. He has as much run as any dog I have ever owned, he flat out gets it, he has a great nose, high intelligence and is fairly biddable. His only negative is that he runs with a lower tail than what it would take to win in the Shooting Dog world. On point he is straight up.
It appears to me that you and Ferrell are on the same page just in reverse. Ferrell's dogs had the run he went looking for style, yours have style and looking for run. But it appears you both have the same philosophy.

I am no expert, but I listen well, it seems to me what Miller's line is to AA dogs; Guard Rail is to shooting dogs.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:51 pm

birdsandbirds wrote:Ray , you are going to argue no matter what. You are anti Miller and that is all there is too it you cannot ever find anything good to say about them ever. Since you seem to have all the breeding scenios down pat, i guess we should just call you the new age Ferrel Miller.

How many true Miller dogs have you ever owned or for that matter ever watched? you have said yourself no one runs Miller dogs on the east coast so i am doubting you have saw very many.
We love personal attacks on here. Ray's too much of a gentleman to say anything, but I'm not. Just remember what goes around......Just stick to the discussion and leave personal attacks out of it.
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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:05 pm

Ross -

I just checked out Duke's pedigree. Very impressive. That is a very nice blending of complementary strengths. Fiddler style, Guard Rail intensity and drive, Miller gait and reach and comeback. That breeding with an Addtions/Guard Rail dam should be something special.

Good luck with it.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:16 pm

I just checked out Duke's pedigree. Very impressive. That is a very nice blending of complementary strengths. Fiddler style, Guard Rail intensity and drive, Miller gait and reach and comeback. That breeding with an Addtions/Guard Rail dam should be something special.
Thanks Ray,

I bred him to my Elhew females, my Go Boy females and today I was rolling on the ground playing with his litter out of my Guard Rail daughter ....his Aunt. :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:40 pm

highflying wrote:
Sharon wrote:
birdsandbirds wrote:Ray , you are going to argue no matter what. You are anti Miller and that is all there is too it you cannot ever find anything good to say about them ever. Since you seem to have all the breeding scenios down pat, i guess we should just call you the new age Ferrel Miller.

How many true Miller dogs have you ever owned or for that matter ever watched? you have said yourself no one runs Miller dogs on the east coast so i am doubting you have saw very many.
We love personal attacks on here. Ray's too much of a gentleman to say anything, but I'm not. Just remember what goes around......Just stick to the discussion and leave personal attacks out of it.
Yes it does sharon.. I don't think it was a personal attack at all.. But i have some of his dogs right now... he might know more than you or ray think... you might be surprised... The circle can be very tight...

Bo...
I'm quite sure that EVERYONE on here knows a lot more then me. I wasn't talking about dog knowledge. I was talking about forum respect.
I don't want to interrupt this excellent thread any further, That's the last I have to say on the subject.
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Re: EP sire question

Post by springpoint » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Wow what a great thread this is. I'm new to bird dogs and interested in pointers so this is a great thread.

This is probably a really stupid question but what is the difference between a shooting dog trial and a All Age trial? :oops:


thanks in advance

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birdogg42 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:56 pm

big running dogs and BIG BIG RUNNING DOGS. :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Big Dave » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:23 pm

This has become more of a general pointer line discussion. I would like to read some opinions on specific ep sires that you guys like, and why. Duane, Topher you midwest guys especially.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:01 pm

Highflyin wrote:

"What do you want know????

WE ALL RUN PUPS ON wild BIRDS WELL BEFORE THEY'RE EVER PUT THEM ON A PEN RAISED BIRD??????


you never know what you have until you have ran them on wild birds???? what lines????"


Well that is ONE way to go about it...I suppose.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:51 pm

Highflying -

There are many, many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. I know a couple...most of the pro trainers I am acquainted with know quite a few more ways than that. That is why they are pros.

Anyone who claims to have the ONLY way or the BEST way for everyone and every dog... simply has not done their homework. It might be best for you and your dog and your situation, but to leap to the conclusion that because YOU think it is the berries...then it MUST be the best way and the ONLY way, is actually rather amusing... in a self absorbed sort of way.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:22 am

This thread is headed in the wrong direction. Address the content of the post, not the people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Nose it back on the map or I'll have to bring out my red pen.

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