Looking for input on Llewellin Setters

[Born2Hunt]

Hey everyone,
I have a cousin that lives in the Chicago area that is looking into getting a Llewellin from King llewellin setters ... He has 1 son that is about 2 years old, any info you can give on what type of family companion / hunting companion they are, and if anyone knows the quality of dogs that King Llewellin setters puts out.. Thanks in advance for all your input

[hustonmc]

PM, Rockllews here on gundogforum, she has studied ALOT about the breed and is one very intelligent young lady. She is very detailed and will give you a straight up answer on all your questions.

[Don]

Or contact High Cotton. He's forgotten more than most ever knew!

[highcotton]

Hey everyone,
I have a cousin that lives in the Chicago area that is looking into getting a Llewellin from King llewellin setters ... He has 1 son that is about 2 years old, any info you can give on what type of family companion / hunting companion they are, and if anyone knows the quality of dogs that King Llewellin setters puts out.. Thanks in advance for all your input

Both Wilbur Williams in Lincoln IL http://www.williams-llewellins.com/ and Chuck Wilson in Waco TX http://www.whiterockllewellins.com/ have nice FDSB registered Llewellin pups available.

[Born2Hunt]

Thanks for the input... I will pass it on ... How are they as family pets around the house with kids??

[kninebirddog]

Ok Your in good hands with highcotton

[highcotton]

Thanks for the input... I will pass it on ... How are they as family pets around the house with kids??

Llewellins come in all shapes, sizes and colors. The different bloodlines within the Llewellin strain have traits that are unique to their particular line. With only one exception, all lines have the temperment to make excellent companion dogs. If you want to discuss the different bloodlines of the Llewellin strain shoot me a PM and I will try to help.

Charles

[rockllews]

Hey, I'll stick my nose in here, although Matt greatly overestimated my knowledge. I'll simply recommend looking to another breeder. Like Charles said, Chuck and Wilbur are good starting places. I always recommend them, as well as High Fly'n Kennels (highflynkennels.com), and High Cotton and a few others are at the top of my list for people looking for pups. As far as pets/companions go, most Llewellins are great (but obviously check about parents' and pup's temperaments...).

I'd definitely take Charles up on his offer to share his take on the lines.

[quailrunner]

I got my pup from the King's at 10 weeks old, he is now 18 wks. He is a great dog out of the dashing bondhu line as far as I can tell. He listen's very well,he's intelligent, playful when you let him and calm when you want him to be. I don't know what the problem is with "King's Llewellin's" , cause I had a great experience with them and couldn't be happier.
It would be nice if some of you folks that have knowledge of the different Llewellin lines could share your knowledge here, I am sure a lot of us would appreciate it.

[highcotton]

I've not spent a lot of time learning Llewellin history. I have focused my attention on present day Llewellins and tried to build a breeding program from todays available genepool. This is only my opinion based on my experience with the Llewellins I have worked.

Bondhu/Windem- The most recent imports (within 30-40 years), will generally have heaiver coats, and more color, shorter range and less style. Some of the very best noses come from this line. Most double well as family pets and are easily trained without pressure. Their sizes range all over the board about the same as English. Although they are bred all over the world they are commonly refered to as European Llewellins. All other lines are referred to as American Llewellins.

The "American lines" that you hear referenced were pretty much created by one breeder. He has been line-breeding them for some 40 years. I have owned dogs from all the lines and there are clear differences both in appearance and performance. As with anything there are exceptions but generally speaking the lines traits are:

Royacelle- Originated from a Horseback shooting dog in Arab, AL by the name of (you guessed it) Royacelle. These dogs are mostly white with very light ticking. They are quick, snappy and stylish. They have a ton point and can take some training pressure. Sizes range slightly smaller than the Bondhus with males averaging 35-45 lbs.

Blizzard- much like the Royacells but usually bigger dogs with males running 45-to as much as 65 lbs. Many of the chestnut dogs have a heavy part of Blizzard blood. Several have been successful in broke dog dog stakes.

Gladstone-almost always tri-colored and heavily marked, these dogs are many peoples go-to foot dogs. Thay are very easily trained and real people dogs with eager to please attitudes. They come is all sizes and shapes, some being very stylish and some not so.

Bomber-tough, and more tough. Most are tri-colored with occasional chestnut or orange. These dogs are as tough as anyones pointer. They can take anything you dish out to them in training and come back for more. They are not the best choice for pets. Not that they are ill tempered they just dont give a s**t. They make excellent west tx dogs to work day in and out in the rough stuff. They don't know about quit. They are not for the novice trainer. Most have big motors and will run big if you let them. If you want to put some toughness in a line a dose of Bomber blood will do the trick.

Most Llewellins you see today are crosses from the above lines.

Like I said before this is my opinion only based on my personal experience with around 100 dogs. If you ask ten different breeders you will likely get totally different responses. Most important thing is communicate with the breeder you choose and make sure they understand exactly what you are looking for and you will increase your chances of getting what you want. Also it's a good idea to ask if the dogs are FDSB registered. Many are not.

[quailrunner]

The "American lines" that you hear referenced were pretty much created by one breeder. Should this say "maintained by one breeder"?
Excellent information by the way!Thank You!

[WolfMansDad]

For what it's worth, I have two llewellins, and the youngest one's sire came from King's. I think his dam's sire came from King's as well, which would make him sort of "three-quarters King's." I had hunted over both the sire and dam and really wanted a pup from their cross. He is unlike any dog I have ever had before, and I'll try to give you some of my observations and impressions here.

He is now 22 months and is very good around my kids (ages range from 16 years to 7 months). He is especially patient with the baby and will tolerate a good deal of grabbing and hair pulling that the older dog will not.

He does have an excellent nose, better than any dog I've owned. My subjective impression is that it is even better than my hounds'. On wild birds, he dominates over the older, more stylish, and better trained dog, finding the vast majority of them when I take them out together. This is one of the most important qualities in a dog for me, and makes up for a lot of other shortcomings.

He was surprisingly fat, weak, and slow as a young puppy. He was almost a year old before he could jump well enough to get into my jeep without help, and that still concerns me a little. I am thinking of breeding him because his nose is so good, but I will have his hips checked first. If they come out less than OFA good, I won't do it. For comparison, the older dog could clear a baby gate in one bound at sixteen weeks.

He looks retarded on point, but as mentioned above he is actually quite good at finding wild birds. While a good-looking dog is nice to have, I do prefer a dog that produces results over one that looks good.

His coat sucks, pure and simple. It is very fine, tangles easily, and is an absolute bur magnet. Most of my bur-combing time is spent on this dog, while the other one just doesn't need as much maintenance.

To summarize,
Pros: superb nose, great wild bird finder, very patient with small children
Cons: unathletic, poor coat

That's just for this dog, of course. Your mileage may vary.

[TonyS]

This is an old post but no mention was made of Bondhu lines. Or for that matter, Humphrey's bondhus.

First thing to know is that genetic defects have mostly been culled out. Next thing to know is that HB are born with the instinct to hunt birds for you. With mine I had minimal training- he got all the yard stuff at 3 months. Didn't like to return objects thrown but would readily get them. We fixed that.

As far as field work, I put him on pigeons planted in a field. First with a check cord and to understand 'whoa' is not an obedience command but as a way of life. He probably bumped and chased about 15-20 birds until he figured out "if I charge them they fly away and no bird gets shot'. After that, then back to the retrieval issue. He was shocked and dismayed when he dodged bringing back the bird and was caught and put up to go home. Not happy with that at all.

Next trip out, initial balking was met with me starting to leave. Not happy. Immediately brought the bird and sat waiting to be told 'hunt 'em up'.

As far as ranging, at 7 months he put a 'professionally trained pointer' to shame. She ranged in straight lines about 75 yards in one direction then would turn another direction. My pup ranged in a 180 degree pattern covering all the ground to find birds. He also took direction to another area of the field. Needless to say, the pointer was put up fast by the owner who wasn't happy with the 'training'.

Just my 2 cents.

[Moulders Farm]

The Llewellin breed is a great family dog & bird dog . The king family blood line is mixed in to about all your puppys you will find to day but watch some are not FDSB reg. make sure what you by is & you get the papers .There has been some trouble of later in King reg . but check out the add below from hphelp56 He has some great puppys from some great llewellin of today look at Hidden Creek Kennals .com I look to have some puppys of my own later this year . I am sure you will be pleased with Bills puppys at Hidden Creek Kennals his male Nickle has won several trails Jim

[kninebirddog]

Facts are the ones that didn't get reg FDSB llewellyn setter from King were ones where the Sire couldn't be determined via DNA.
There is a twist in his version on his web site about his research on the llewellyn setter as one can look at a book called the modern setter written back in the early 1900 which explains how llewellyn purcell marketed the Statter Rheobe, Duke Laverick breeding

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id ... g=GBS.PA21

or go under google books and look up modern setter Chapter 2 is devoted to llewellin and Laverak again this was long before Kings day

Copyright, I9I9 By A. F. HOCHWALT

THE EARLY LLEWELLlNS—The story of the origin of this strain of setters known here in America as Llewellins, is an oft-repeated one. Its foundation lies in the Duke-Rhoebe progeny being bred on that of the Laveracks. The proportions were immaterial; as long as the blood in its entirety came from this source, they were, according to G. Teasdale Buckell's interpretation, Llewellin setters, no matter who bred them or where they may have originated. Mr. Buckell was R. Purcell-Llew ellin's manager at the time he issued this famous edict. I forbear to enter into the minute particulars as to how the strain was named, but judging from the correspondence that passed between some of the early importers and Messrs. Llewellin and Buckell we cannot escape the per fectly obvious conclusion that it was at their suggestion that this strain of setters was named Llewellin. R. Purcell-Lewellin bred many of the early dogs which figure in the formation of this strain, but he did not breed the type as we know it here in America. Let me reiterate that the Llewellin setter is distinctly an American evolution with the name of an English breeder attached. Perhaps this was done as a compliment in recognition of his early efforts, but the fact remains, Mr. Llewellin was advertising setters for sale here in our American kennel press as "Lewellin's Breed” in the same issues in which articles appeared from the pen of Arnold Burges, L. H. Smith and others suggesting the change of name, and we know now, that it was G. Teasdale Buckell who broached the subject to these writers before any of them expressed their views in print.

[Bud Savoie]

The late C. Bede Maxwell, dog breeder, show handler, judge, and author, claimed in her book The Truth About Sporting Dogs that "There are still those in this our own time who talk glibly of 'Llewellin Setters' and identify the present-day field competing English Setters as such. Actually, the strain has been dead for decades. The last successful 'straightbred' Llewellin was La Besita, the National champion of 1915!" --p. 105 (1972)

Bud Savoie

[Familytradition]

I recently bought a llewellin from mountainview kennels. It is early as my pup is only 16 weeks old, but I really like her. She is calm and willing to please. My tomoka/tricky "bleep" bred setter is hyper, runs big, and has a poor nose. I wasn't into bird dogs when the Kings had their falling out with FDSB, but seems to me that they bred some very good dogs. Now the llewellin blood is split up even further and I'm not sure FDSB nor the IPDBA has enough blood left to save them. I can only find 4 kennels with with IPDBA and maybe with 20 FDSB dogs online. Anybody have a guess as to how many llewelins ever exist?

[TonyS]

Don't worry about the strain fading away. There are lots and lots of non FDSB dogs out there. Interesting how ONLY llewellins are 'DNA' tested; no other breed.

Can we say Vendetta? I bet we can.

[shags]

Geez. Sounds like someone didn't take his happy pill this morning :roll:

[CARAWAY57]

Great breed.I have owned several.Most if not all training comes natural.great with kids and most all people.My last one was my daughter's favorite pet.She is now six and wants another one after the last one died at 14yrs. old .Great choice and good luck.

[ezzy333]

Don't worry about the strain fading away. There are lots and lots of non FDSB dogs out there. Interesting how ONLY llewellins are 'DNA' tested; no other breed.

Can we say Vendetta? I bet we can.

they are DNA'd for your protection as many setters were being marketed as Lews that were not. DNA is the only way to tell.

[TonyS]

Ezzy,

Here's the real scoop. DNA will ONLY indicate parentage NO FARTHER. Any other story is just that. I never heard of anyone using testing on mitochondrial DNA on dogs.

“No ONE can prove a setter is a pure Llewellin setter with DNA testing, simply because there are no DNA samples of dogs even just a few generations back, never mind all the way back to the setters Mr. Llewellin owned….

DNA cannot even separate English setters from Llewellin setters.”

From http://llewellinsetter.8k.com/DashingBonhu.html

Sorry but he's right.

Not opinion, fact.

[shags]

Too bad you couldn't have cited a more credible source of 'facts'.

You realize that IPDBA was formed in order to register designer breeds? And that Kings' kennel had a credibility problem pertaining to their dogs' pedigrees, thus barring them from registering with this country's oldest registry?

[TonyS]

shags,

See above.

[RayGubernat]

shags,

See above.

I dunno...kinda sounds like a sales job to me. Bob Whele would be proud.

There is absolutely NO way that ANYONE can say with any degree of certainty that a line(ANY LINE) of bird dogs is "pure"...whatever that means. Folks have been mixing and matching for a couple of hundred years in this country alone. Pointers, setters, GSP's... you name the breed and someone, somewhere, has been messing with the gene pool and registering mixed breed pups as purebred. Every single bird dog breed with the possible exception to the tightly controlled German versatiles that were bred in Europe. Once the dogs crossed the pond and escaped the purview of the breed wardens...all bets are off there too.

Llews are English setters. They are nice enough bird dogs, based on those few that I have seen, but at the end of the day...they are English Setters. How they work in the field is much more a function of who their parents and grandparents are, than some tenuous attachment to an eighteenth century breeder.

The standard to which all bird dogs are held is the field trial. For better or worse, it is the most objective means of determining the talents and abilities of a dog in the field.

RayG

[TonyS]

The standard? My dog has no affinity for trophies nor do I. We hunt birds.

[33Scout]

Great dogs!! Awesome hunters and great with kids. Gentle dogs.. My is a 6yo male and I have a 6yo son he is great with him. Awesome wild bird hunter (Grouse).

[woodsway]

Like one person said at one time we should get some hair from Count Noble in the Birg Dog Hall of Fame there is some old DNA there..LOL...I love Llewellins ....Yes the DNA can only tell the parents.....I have a 8 week old male for sale if any one is interested FDSB Reg and DNA 500.00 located in Central IL

[33Scout]

Sorry, not to high jack this post but I have a 6yo tricolor intact male that I am looking to breed. He is a beautiful animal. His hunting abilities are second to none. He is steady to wing, shot, and flush. His drive cannot be matched. He is kept in the house so he is a family companion. PM me if anyone knows someone in the upstate, NY area. Thanks

[NEhomer]

Hi folks, new to the forum and new to LLewellins. I'm picking up my first LLew pup a week from Saturday on the 24th!

Too excited...what beautiful dogs.

[ckfowler]

I have been converted and now share my home with a young Llew. Had a cover dog ES and several Gordons, still have a black dog and love them all. My Llew is out of Jerry Idlett's Wildwood kennel in Ohio and Russ Leaming's OnPoint kennels in MO. She is smart, points with style and a natural retrieve that I haven't had to force yet. I did buy a GPS collar because she runs past beeper range and I do t want to hack her in at this point. Will also register her AKC and run in some derby stakes when it warms up. She is very talkative but has never offered a growl at any person, might lick a kid to death.