REPUTABLE TOP GSP or DK LINES FOR THE FOOTHUNTER?

[briarpatch]

I know its early but am already starting the search for my next GSP or DK female puppy for the spring of 09 and am considering an outcross for my male..

must haves qualities in the bloodlines

naturally close working for a foot hunter
calm demeaner in the house
bidable
natural point and retrieve instincts
natural love of water(swimming)




any suggestions of breeders or lines? Just starting the research I have a few lines in mind but would still like input from the breeders or owners of dogs from breeders with those qualites in mind..I have plenty of time to decide on a breeder or line but like to do my homework way ahead of time any suggestions would be appreciated.

[intothewind]

you might look at the no mars kennels. ve been there and i love the nature of his dogs. they live in a communal type of setting. they get along well, didnt hear any barking when i was there. very calm in nature, the ones i saw. i really wanted a male he had, but had already put a deposit on one from another kennel. i will def look to him for a future purchase.

[Will]

Definately not too early. In fact, you might find yourself pretty low on the waiting list of the good, reputable breeders. I think you should step up your search and get a deposit in quick!!! I've had my deposit in for a spring puppy for at least 2 months now.

Your Westwind pup goes back pretty nicely to Hustler as a foundation. If you like that...you already have your answer. Find a breeder who will help put you in a complimentary breeding. I would stick with the Hustler foundation, but pull away from the Westwind with your bitch.

Lots of good breeders using these lines....Walnut Hill and Top Gun come to mind immediately. Both will help put you in what you want/need....not just what they sell.

[Sharon]

You have a lot of excellent GSP breeders on this forum. Check their websites listed at the bottom of their posts and check the ads above.

[Adam]

Check out Honey Run shorthairs you pretty much described my alli to a T

[ballgamedrink]

Baier Den Kennels
Peculiar, MO
Wayne Baier
Ph#816-779-5234 or 816-779-5145

I bought a shorthair from Wayne a couple of years ago and was pleased. I had sent him a Brittany to train for me, when the Brittany showed no promise he told me that he had a some shorthair pups if i was interested. The first time i saw the pup he was 4 months old and he was hunting, finding, pointing birds. He also instictively honored point. To this day the dogs has had the best instincts of any dog i had ever been around.

[briarpatch]

Definately not too early. In fact, you might find yourself pretty low on the waiting list of the good, reputable breeders. I think you should step up your search and get a deposit in quick!!! I've had my deposit in for a spring puppy for at least 2 months now.

Your Westwind pup goes back pretty nicely to Hustler as a foundation. If you like that...you already have your answer. Find a breeder who will help put you in a complimentary breeding. I would stick with the Hustler foundation, but pull away from the Westwind with your bitch.

I simply love my linebred hustler pup from westwind he is pure style in the feild a pleasure to watch him work ..but his COI is rather high, though think it would be great to find a complete outcross with simular characteristics to breed to.. My mostly hege-haus pup belle also had many of the same of what I consider great traits I am hoping to find another bloodline also with simular traits to perhaps someday do outcrosses to..

Also I will never put a deposit down on an upcoming litter again.. I have done it twice in the past and both times after waiting months and months never recieved a pup from either breeder one breeder didnt have enough pups for me to get mine and the other the breeding never took after 6 months of waiting... So from now on I will wait till the pups hit the ground, lots of times the breeders have more pups than deposits and many times people back out of deposits so even the best breeders end up with more pups than they can immediately sell especially in our current economy.. This way also I can see the pups available and decide if it is the one I want or not and switch breeders if the pups aren't exactly what I expected to see looks wise, many times there are several breeders with the same lines if they are good lines, so even though I may not get a pup from the original breeder of the line I can still get one from someone else who is breeding the same line and has bought dogs from the original breeder of the line and are now breeding them..

you might look at the no mars kennels . ve been there and i love the nature of his dogs. they live in a communal type of setting. they get along well, didnt hear any barking when i was there. very calm in nature, the ones i saw. i really wanted a male he had, but had already put a deposit on one from another kennel. i will def look to him for a future purchase.

This guy has interesting lines anybody ever buy a dog or pup from him? whats it like?

[briarpatch]

Walnut Hill and Top Gun come to mind immediately

Both of these breeders immediately came to my mind also when looking for a quality dog for the foot hunter I have heard many great things about both breeders.. not sure if they would really lower the COI much on the possible future pups though they both have very simular lines to my Caliber back a few generations at least from what I have seen in some of their pedigrees? Perhaps I am wrong and this would be enough of an outcross to lower the COI?

Has anyone done any complete outcrosses with successful pups or own an outcrossed dog from the hustler lines with another line that still has the qualities mentioned in the earlier post?? If so what line was it outcrossed to and what successes in testing or qualities did the pups or dogs have?

[briarpatch]

Calibers COI based on a 10 generation pedigree is like 21% based on the breeders standard results..I live in NJ where most the birds are released but there are still a few wild quail and wild woodcock and of course ducks but I am not a big duck hunter only do it once in awhile.I have never done hunt testing and not sure if I want to, but am interested in the possibility of maybe doing some in the future (not sure)...
I have read a bit about linebreeding and think an outcross with simular traits is the way to go at this time to another linebred line I am not completly sure if I should go with a complete outcross pup like my Belle or simular lines that have already had slight outcrosses..

This seems to be getting a bit of topic though?

The question I was asking is basically is does anyone know what a good outcross line-bred bloodline that would be good to breed my pup to someday? A line that has been crossed previously with the hustler line-bred line and has produced dogs with simular traits or improved traits and has already provided dogs in the past, with simular or improved traits in the areas listed in the earlier post ? Or know of a complete outcross linebred line that has simular traits to the ones described in the earlier post?
I am also undecided if perhaps it would be better to go with a line that has simular lines that has already had slight outcrosses this would probibly require me to do some extra homework on my breeders standard to really know what the resulting COI would end up being, higher or lower from a possible breeding in the future if I went with a line with a very simular background?

I certainly am not looking to become a large scale breeder by any means but I will probibly buy 1 more female pup next spring with the hopes that she and my Belle will turn out well enough to possibly someday breed a litter or 2 from, and hopefully my Caliber will turn out well enough to be the sire..
So far I am very impressed with him he is pure style in the field and he is still just a pup but only time will tell for sure..I am also very happy with Belle so far she is quickly coming into her own for as young as she is both have seemed to do very well so far for the type of hunting I do even though they are both very young and my training technics are certainly poor at best and need fine tuning...But I think by next year even with my poor training technics the pups I have selected so far are going to be something to see in the field for the type of hunting I do ..I just hope to find another pup or bloodline that would complement Caliber for a possible quality mating in the future,of course only if both dogs turn out as good as I hope..

[briarpatch]

I'm not trying to flame you with this guestion by no means, but you seem to be hung up on big name kennels so you don't you leave breeding up to them, Not join the ranks of the little guy and by happy just owning a dog. sincerly, Howie Hill

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say there Howey

I believe you are trying to say why not leave the breeding up to the big name kennels since I obviously like the well known kennels..
Not join the ranks of the little guy and I should be happy just owning a a dog

if thats what you are asking it is because I believe the little guys can have a well bred litter by breeding lines from the big name kennels as you call them or by combining lines from quality breeders as I like to call them and I want to have a litter or 2 for myself in the future if my dogs perform well for me in the future so I can keep a pup or 2 for myself from my own future litters..

[intothewind]

howie- give this guy a break. why dont you tell everyone what your giving back to the breed, its really not your business at all.

[briarpatch]

I have never done hunt test and not sure if I want to, But am interested in possibility of maybe doing some in the future (not sure)



Where are you coming from with this comment. What could you give back to the breed? Howie Hill

I am sure just as much as you can possibly even more who knows....

also in case you didn't know or wasn't aware there are some quality breeders that don't do hunt tests they focus on hunting only ..they use lines that are very well known in hunt tests and have puppies that are very well known for their hunt test abilities but don't actually do hunt tests themselves with their breeding dogs ..although many of their puppies have excelled in hunt tests..
Those breeders are also called hunters and breed solely for the purpose of getting better hunting dogs some of those breeders are even what you called big name breeders..

however howey if you have nothing productive to add to this post you needn't bother reply as I said before we are getting off the topic and I really would like help with the topic from knowlegable people..

the question was for quality breeders or owners of dogs that could help with the questions obviously you cannot help or answer the questions posed or do not wish to which is fine ,so why bother with this posting. Its become quite obvious you never intended on assisting with answers that could possibly help someone out with information but instead are only responding to this posting to flame. So why bother ...

[briarpatch]

by intothewind on Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:01 pm

howie- give this guy a break. why dont you tell everyone what your giving back to the breed, its really not your business at all.

thanks intothewind... I agree, you must have been typing that as I was typing my last responce..

if anyone can actually help with the original topic it would be appreciated?

[intothewind]

i think its out of line when people come online and dig into other peoples business just to get under their skin. its nobody's business. its not your responsibility to question what anyone is doing to better the breed. my opinion only, of course.

[wems2371]

I certainly am not looking to become a large scale breeder by any means but I will probibly buy 1 more female pup next spring with the hopes that she and my Belle will turn out well enough to possibly someday breed a litter or 2 from, and hopefully my Caliber will turn out well enough to be the sire.. So far I am very impressed with him he is pure style in the field and he is still just a pup but only time will tell for sure..I am also very happy with Belle so far she is quickly coming into her own for as young as she is both have seemed to do very well so far for the type of hunting I do even though they are both very young and my training technics are certainly poor at best and need fine tuning...But I think by next year even with my poor training technics the pups I have selected so far are going to be something to see in the field for the type of hunting I do ..I just hope to find another pup or bloodline that would complement Caliber for a possible quality mating in the future,of course only if both dogs turn out as good as I hope..

It sounds to me like Briarpatch is trying hard to do some research to purchase a breeding prospect. Every prospective breeder has to start somewhere.....and I cannot see where starting with well known lines is heading down a wrong path in doing so. "Bettering the breed" is a huge mountain of a subject as well. In my book, breed conformation standards combined with high hunting instinct would be the determining factors. Who decides that? In my limited time with gsps, I've seen conformation champs that leave me confused and a few "tested" dogs that were bootlickers or couldn't point if their life depended on it. Somebody thought they were good enough to give titles to, yet I wouldn't have given a nickel for them. Go forth with as much knowledge as possible, keep high goals, have great intentions that you follow through with, and always re-evaluate.

I have been following your thread, as I'm in the market for a 2009 pup as well. I do think your original topic is pretty open-ended, as not everyone shares an idea of what is reputable or "top". I have about a top 20 kennel list on my favs right now. Kind of had it broken down into two different lines, but I think I'll head back to what I know and love vs going out on a limb. I'd like to share my list with you Briarpatch, but then I might have to beat you to a deposit too! Good luck. Denise

[Yawallac]

I like Shooting Star and Sharp Shooter bred GSPs for foot hunting prospects. They do very well in the NAVHDA system. That would also give you the outcross you are looking for to well established line bred GSPs.

Good luck,

Ross.

PS I don't think Howie was trying to flame you. He was making a point that is probably a better choice for some folks.

[Huntemup Chuck]

Dennis,
I've owned a dog from No-Mars Kennel and I currently have a dog for Sharp Shooter Kennel. I have nothing but good things to say about these two kennels. My Shorthair that passed away was from No-Mars Kennel and he was an all black male shothair that was a dream to own. He was from the Bow and Feta litter. He passed his UT test with a Prize II 175 well before he was even 2 years old. His name was No-Mars Miles V Beaugraf and he was well on his way on becoming a Prize I dog before the age of 2. I currently own a female from Sharp Shooter Kennel, named Sharp Shooter's Prima Donna and her call name is Star. She is only 6 months old and has been on numerous wild pheasant hunts with me already and I can tell you that this little girl has it all! I see myself running this girl in UT before the age of 1.5. From the No Mars line I like the dogs that have Enzo in their blood. Indian Brook Kennel I believe owns Enzo and would put them high on your list as well. I know I can't replace my dog Miles, but I recently put a deposit down on a DK dog from Beaver Creek Kennel. Butch is a super nice guy and I would also endorse him to anyone interested in top notch DK's. I like the Pottsiepen blood lines so I am going to go with a DK dog from his Kennel. Based on your previous comment of not being too interested in testing dogs I would tell you that a DK would not be your best choice. As a matter of fact I can't think of any NAVHDA or NADKC breeder that would want to sell someone a dog that didn't have a strong desire to test their pup. I have a great respect for DK breeders and their level of dedication to DK breed. Numerous test and evaluations go into a dog before it is even considered to be bred. Your Westwind dog is a great looking pup and I am sure Gary could sell you another great one, but as you know he hold the breeding right to his females. I guess what I am trying to say is that their are tons of great Kennels out there that can provide you with what you are looking for and would also encourage you to not only hunt with you dog but to also test your dogs if you plan to be a breeder. Here is a list of GSP's and DK's breeders I am sure you would find helpful.

GSP's

http://www.no-mars.com

http://www.sharpshooterskennel.com

http://www.walnuthillgsps.us

www.thunderheadgsp.com

http://www.topgungsps.com

http://www.sundance-gsp.com

http://www.westwindgsps.com

http://www.garbonita.com

http://www.odysseygsp.net

DK's

http://www.vomriverwoods.com

http://www.gspbeavercreekkennel.com

http://www.vomblauengras.com

http://www.vomwustenjager.com

http://www.coveyrun.net

http://www.keljerkennels.com

http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.de Check out the studs dogs from the German Club
http://www.nadkc.org/ North American club

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

I encourage you to talk to Bruce (AHGSP) on this board. Shoot him a pm and I'm sure he'd give you his number. I'm no expert, but I'm thrilled to the gills with my Cash, an 8 month old pup I bought from Bruce this spring. He's had dozens of wild pheasants shot over him and is a better hunter than 75% of the dogs we see hunting roosters in SoDak already. You seem to have a pretty good idea of what's going on, so I'd imagine you could do a lot better than I've done with training as well. The great thing about Bruce is that if he can't give you what you're after, I can guarantee you he'll have some sort of helpful advice on who to contact.

I can also speak well of Steve Ries from Top Gun - He's a standup guy and very open to questions and helping a guy out. I haven't purchased a dog from him (I had a deposit down but the pup unfortunately died) but he was always straight forward and honest. When I switched to AHGSP after the pup died Steve refunded my deposit when he didn't need to and offered all the help in the world. I don't think you could go wrong with either.

[Ditch__Parrot]

I agree talk to Bruce (AHGSP). He seems to be doing some outcrossing on dog's from Hustler lines with good results.



Hey SD Pheasant Slayer the bottom of Cash's pedigree looks pretty similar to my Daisy May's.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Agree, talk to Bruce. I can assure you if he doesn't have a dog that would match up with what you are looking for he can help find the right one. (He probably already knows a dog that would be right) We are beyond happy with the pup we got from him, and she is one her way up to spend a month with him. Can't wait to go grouse hunt with him in Jan and pick her back up.

This picture is her at 5 mos. The pup 2 above this post is her brother cash.

[Greg Jennings]

Walnut Hill and Top Gun come to mind immediately

Both of these breeders immediately came to my mind also when looking for a quality dog for the foot hunter I have heard many great things about both breeders.. not sure if they would really lower the COI much on the possible future pups though they both have very simular lines to my Caliber back a few generations at least from what I have seen in some of their pedigrees? Perhaps I am wrong and this would be enough of an outcross to lower the COI?

Has anyone done any complete outcrosses with successful pups or own an outcrossed dog from the hustler lines with another line that still has the qualities mentioned in the earlier post?? If so what line was it outcrossed to and what successes in testing or qualities did the pups or dogs have?

I'm 100% sure that you'll find something at WHK that'll answer the mail. My own WHK dog's COI (see pedigree below) is not tight at all. Contact info on http://www.walnuthillgsps.us/ .

Here is a thread with some other pics...
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 79&t=13594

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

I can also speak well of Brenda from Walnut Hills. I failed to mention in my previous post that Cash is out of Fritz from Walnut Hills and I don't think you could go wrong breeding any legitimate dog to Fritz. Send Snips a PM and I'm sure she'll fill you in with any info you need.

[Will]

I think one of the best things about the kennels listed within the thread is that there is a wealth of breeding knowledge to be accessed. I doubt there is one of them that wouldn't discuss with you what you'd like to accomplish....pros and cons....COI's....any of the things that are important to you.

[pear]

I think one of the best things about the kennels listed within the thread is that there is a wealth of breeding knowledge to be accessed. I doubt there is one of them that wouldn't discuss with you what you'd like to accomplish....pros and cons....COI's....any of the things that are important to you.

VERY VERY well said Will. ...."pear"

[Prairie Hunter]

Briar,

Just curious why you are so intent on out-crossing?

[Dirtysteve]

Briar
1 more you should check out is Teds' (vzkennels) litter in the for sale section http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 58&t=13659
I have a son from Wendy and have hunted over Jake. This litter will be outstanding and very worth checking out.

[briarpatch]

Briar,

Just curious why you are so intent on out-crossing?

I am not really sure that I am intent on a complete outcrossing.
or if a pup that has already had a slight outcrossing from the same line wouldn't be perfect for me.

I personally love the hustler linebred dogs, Cal so far has exhibited all the qualities I was looking for in a pup for the type of hunting I do. But based solely from what I have read on COI's and linebreeding, I think it would only be responsible of me when looking for a pup, that may well be someday a mate for Cal if both pups turn out as well as I hope, to take this into consideration. So I personally don't want to buy a pup that would increase the COI of any possible future matings. I would like to find a pup that would either lower the COI or at least maintain the current level of COI and not increase it should they ever have a litter. I know a lot of people don't buy into the whole COI thing. I also know there have been a ton of great dogs with a lot higher COI's than my Cal has. But that is just something I personally feel I need to look at after reading a bit on linebreeding and COI's when considering my next pup. This more than likely will be the last pup I ever buy ( since I already have 2 GSP's in the house and a Bulldog) so I want to make every attempt possible to make the best possible decision I can since I do hope they will eventually turn out well enough for a possible mating in the future.

[schultz's honor]

I have 3 Sharpshooter dogs and I can't say enough good things about the Vetters and their kennel.
There is another Wisconsin kennel that has not be mentioned and they produce some fantastic dogs.
Krystal Creek kennel

[Yawallac]

briar,

I am not completely sure of what it is you're looking for and after reading your posts I'm not convinced that you are either. The good news is that there are so many fine GSP breeders here that you are in the right place to be sure. I mentioned a couple of breeders because of your inclination to outcross. I didn't mention Snips or Bruce simply because of the Hustler similarity. I didn't mention Ted because I didn't realize that he had a litter on the ground. What I would recommend is that you find similar pedigrees on this site and talk to those experienced breeders. They will be able to give you insight far beyond some Internet blog about COI. They make successful breeding decisions every day. JMO.

Good luck,

Ross.

[Prairie Hunter]

Briar,

There has always been controversy over line breeding vs. out-crossing. I fall in the line breeding camp. There are no guarantees in breeding, but I feel line breeding give you the best chance a consistently producing the type of dogs you are looking for. However, I do not bash those that feel out crossing is better. Obviously, you have heard or read information about line breeding and inbreeding coefficients that makes you feel it would be better to outcross. Would you care to share your rational? You can send me a PM if you like.

[briarpatch]

y Prairie Hunter on Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:32 pm

Briar,

There has always been controversy over line breeding vs. out-crossing. I fall in the line breeding camp. There are no guarantees in breeding, but I feel line breeding give you the best chance a consistently producing the type of dogs you are looking for. However, I do not bash those that feel out crossing is better. Obviously, you have heard or read information about line breeding and inbreeding coefficients that makes you feel it would be better to outcross. Would you care to share your rational? You can send me a PM if you like.

As I said before though

I am not really sure that I am intent on a complete outcrossing.
or if a pup that has already had a slight outcrossing from the same line wouldn't be perfect for me

But Check out this thread http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 69&t=15767 the 2 links I left in this thread cover a lot of the basics on what I have read. There are tons of articles out there though on linebreeding and COI's from professors and scientists and breeders of everything from pigs to birds to horses and many have differrent takes on the subject.

[Razor]

Briar
1 more you should check out is Teds' (vzkennels) litter in the for sale section http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 58&t=13659
I have a son from Wendy and have hunted over Jake. This litter will be outstanding and very worth checking out.

I would take a look at this litter also. The sire is a bird finding machine.

[kumate]

Dennis i would give Gary a call and get his input, he could probably steer you in the right direction, he knows shorthairs

[briarpatch]

Dennis i would give Gary a call and get his input, he could probably steer you in the right direction, he knows shorthairs

Your probibly right on that one. I definately should give him a hollar and get his input.

I always like to get as much input from as many people as possible when attempting to make a decision like this. the input you get from this forum is great. Many Great breeders and owners on here and most are great about sharing information. Especially when it comes to their dogs


I've already taken some of you alls advice and been talking a little with a couple of the well recommended breeders from the e-mails and PM's and Threads I recieved in this posting and quite a few owners of dogs from a lot of simular bloodlines some outcrossed and some from the same line and some very simular and also talked to a couple of the totally different bloodlines breeders and owners and think it all has been very helpful.

In my Book there is nothing better, than recommendations from the people who owns a dog or dogs from your breedings or bloodlines when looking for a breeder.



So I want to thank everyone for their input.
All your advice has helped a great deal as usual and will weigh heavily in helping me in making my decision.

I definatley will still be talking to a few more people in the near future..

thanks again everyone
Dennis (AKA BrairPatch)