akc vs nstra

[dirtdober]

I have recently seen a nstra trial and am wondering what the difference is between an akc walking trial and a nstra trial? I noticed the nstra used a bird field, is this not the case in akc? They also held four trials in one weekend. What is done is the akc? Does this mean there are four times as many trials in nstra? Overall I thought this trial was very laid back and everyone was very nice and helpful.

[Dave Quindt]

Here are some differences, comparing adult stakes here:

Here are some differences, comparing adult stakes here:

AKC stakes requires fully broke dogs, dogs to honor through the shot and retrieve without being restrained. NSTRA dogs can break at the shot and must be restrained when honoring.

AKC stakes are supposed to mimic wild bird hunting as much as possible; the course follow the terrain and have no "out of bounds" or specific size requirements.

AKC stakes promote dogs that determine where birds would naturally be found, and hunt those likely places. The use of planted birds makes this tough, but the expectation in an AKC stake is that the dog will spend it's time in or near naturally birdy cover. NSTRA dogs sweep fields, AKC dogs hunt objectives. AKC stakes try to avoid the "game farm" look and feel as much as possible; NSTRA seems to accept it.

AKC stakes have no limit on entries, other than what can be run over the course of the trial or what the judges can reasonably handle.

AKC stakes, FOR THE MOST PART, do not have birdfields; birds are planted across the entire course. There are a few exceptions, but they are a dying breed (thank goodness). In an AKC stake, the hander only carries a blank pistol and does not EVER shoot the bird. Assigned gunners handle the shooting, either on course (rare) or in a call back situation (most likely)

You can use a scout in an AKC walking stake. Use can run a dog with a tracking collar on in an AKC walking stake.

AKC splits their stakes between amateur (non-pro) and open (open to all, including pros).

You can walk or ride along to watch any and all dogs run; you can ride every brace of a national championship stake, follow the judges and see everything that they do.

Judging is subjective, like NSTRA, but there is no "scoring system"; judges award placements based on their conclusions.

In AKC stakes performances are judged against a standard first, and then the competitors. If a dog's performance doesn't meet the standard of the stake (regardless of how good it is), the dog won't be placed. If no dogs are worthy of placement, then no dogs are awarded placements. In NSTRA, there is a guaranteed winner; the dog with the highest score automatically is the winner regardless of the quality of the performance.

AKC trials are make up of individual stakes; a walking trial usually will have an open puppy stake, an open derby stake, an amateur gundog stake an open gundog stake and possibly an open limited gundog stake. Depending on the age, training and past trial experience a dog might be able to run in anywhere between 1 and all of these 5 stakes.

There’s a lot more, but this should answer some of your questions.

JMO,
Dave

[kninebirddog]

I wouldn't look at it as one versus another

they are different one is not better then another

They are different and for reason it gives us choices to do what we enjoy with our dogs

one likes coke another likes dr pepper they are around cause people enjoy to do them

Figure which one you like and enjoy and go with it

[natetnc]

there are many differences as mentioned above and although i have not competed in nstra, i imagine not only the rules but the atmosphere would be very different. i think the biggest difference would be the akc being judged on a standard vs nstra being a placement event. not to say it doesn't happen, but i have never been a part of an akc hunt test that places dogs relative to other dogs in the event, they either met the standard or they didn't.

[dirtdober]

You can use a scout in an AKC walking stake.

What is the scout used for in this stake, keeping track of your dog? Also, are the walking trials and gundog trials the same thing?
I have participated in akc hunt test and attended one horseback trial years ago. I am just trying to figure out where I want to focus my attention. Only have so many free weekends.

[dirtdober]

Dave, thanks for the explaination. That covered a lot.

Gary

[Dave Quindt]

You can use a scout in an AKC walking stake.

What is the scout used for in this stake, keeping track of your dog? Also, is the walking trials and gundog trials the same thing?
I have participated in akc hunt test and attended one horseback trial years ago. I am just trying to figure out where I want to focus my attention. Only have so many free weekends.

The scout's primary job is to go find the dog if he's out of sight of the hander/judges and hopefully find him on point. The scout is the hander's "assistant"; he can find the dog if he gets lost, and put him back on course for example.

Scouting is a big deal in horseback stakes, and a lesser deal in walking stakes. Having a scout you know and trust is always nice, but I can think back to a number of stakes I've won where I went to the line and just found someone in the gallery to scout for me.

If you've seen an AKC hunt test, think of a Master Hunter test run on a straight course without birdfield and the dogs allowed to roll around as much as they want as long as they go with the handler. That's basically an AKC walking trial.

JMO,
Dave

[Don]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the scout is allowed to handle the dog. In fact, the scout is not supposed to go forward of the handler. The sciouts job is to look for the dog and let the handler know where it is and the handler is supposed to bring the dog back around, or to find the dog on point and call it. Least it used to be that way. Also there didn't used to be scouts in gun dog stakes although the judge could have someone go check over a hill ect. In a gun dog stake the dog is supposed to handle superbly and not get lost. Often a dog running gun dog is what we used to call the "gray area dog" or shooting dog which AKC doesn't have.

[snips]

As someone that has run NSTRA for years and I am doing AKC now, biggest issue I have is the number of Walking Trials to be found. We ran NSTRA 2-3 weeks out of the month, I have exactly 1 AKC Walking Trial in my area to attend this fall....Almost not worth keeping a dog broke for. There will be a few more in the spring.

[47sgs]

The number of AKC trials in our area is a big factor as well. There just aren't that many. For NSTRA, we have probably 10 within driving range in the spring, and half that many in the fall. Plus if you travel somewhere, you can usually find a NSTRA trial to compete in. I would really like to do both.
As mentioned previously, AKC trials are judged subjectively as to the quality of the dog's work. In NSTRA, the dog is scored on the work it does. Each find is scored 0-100, each retieve 0-100, one back at 0-75, then a 0-75 for obedience, 0-100 for ground coverage. The total of these objectives is the dogs score, and that score is compared to the other 31 dogs that run that field that day.
I look at both as an extension of hunting season, giving me the opportunity to use my dogs for a longer period of time. Plus you meet some awfully nice people.

[Wildweeds]

Brenda

If the dog is broke why not keep him broke?I've attended both types of trials and really don't see all the hub bub about having a breaking dog in nstra.It does not save all that much time.I did however get to watch a nstra CH setter who is also a FC/AFC/NAFC win his NAFC title 2 weeks after winning his NSTRA CH.He's a really nice dog.I've also seen other broke dogs run in nstra and there is absolutely ZERO doubt on the birdwork,no steps,no flagging,no roading in just perfection and they always scored quite high.Fact is I think one of those dogs came from your kennel as a pretty old (8 years)dog .She was a daughter of Beirs Evoultion and out of Prima banane?Her name was Annie and she was a REALLY nice shorthair.

As someone that has run NSTRA for years and I am doing AKC now, biggest issue I have is the number of Walking Trials to be found. We ran NSTRA 2-3 weeks out of the month, I have exactly 1 AKC Walking Trial in my area to attend this fall....Almost not worth keeping a dog broke for. There will be a few more in the spring.

[Sharon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the scout is allowed to handle the dog. In fact, the scout is not supposed to go forward of the handler. The sciouts job is to look for the dog and let the handler know where it is and the handler is supposed to bring the dog back around, or to find the dog on point and call it. Least it used to be that way. Also there didn't used to be scouts in gun dog stakes although the judge could have someone go check over a hill ect. In a gun dog stake the dog is supposed to handle superbly and not get lost. Often a dog running gun dog is what we used to call the "gray area dog" or shooting dog which AKC doesn't have.

Exactly. Always something the judge is watching for. I could tell you a hundred ways I have seen scouts cheat.

The scout is not suppose to even speak to the dog when scouting. Just locate the dog to see if it's on point , if he can get the dog back on course without handling/speaking then he's done his /her job.

[snips]

Wildwings, we have always kept our dogs steady to wing, and also have a NSTRA Ch, DC. But realistically, you cannot pick your dog up in a NSTRA trial if he starts breaking, and running 2 times a day each weekend is not a place I want to worry about my dog breaking after the possibility of shooting a bunch of birds in a trial. You might be referring to BA, Rick trained her, very nice dog. More power to those trying to keep dogs broke running NSTRA, I am sure there are "some" dogs you can do it with, but I have never seen anyone that runs NSTRA on an every weekend schedule keep a dog SWS.

[dirtdober]

Snips, what did you mean by "realistically, you cannot pick your dog up in a NSTRA trial if he starts breaking"?
I personally want my dog broke to at least wing. That is just a personal preferance about safety.

NSTRA guys, why does NSTRA always use an open bird field? Why not more natural cover?

AKC guys, why doesn't the AKC use retrieving in more of thier trials?

I do not mean to be rude about the questions, I just don't know.

Gary

[kninebirddog]

I shoot to retrieve you can not just pick your dog up during your 30 minues

if your in a posisition where you want to pull your dog you have to tak to your judge
they stop the brace find a fill in dog and the continue the full 30 minutes with two dogs running

If you just collar your dog and pull it out of the trial ...you can get suspended

things dogs ca get pulled for a dog is not competetive for 10 minutes
out of bounds for ten combined minutes
dog rips out a second bird
dog fights

but again they will stop the brace other handler must get and hold their dog where they are in the field and another dog and handler time is restarted to finish the 30 minutes

[ncpointers]

The main reason about the open field is safety for the dogs, handlers and judges. Also, the dogs must be steady to flush (wing) but not to the shot.

[romeo212000]

Most judges are understanding about needing to pick up your dog sometimes. Just dont make a habit of it. I seen judges allow a handler to pick up their dog because they were being completely defiant. 3 weeks ago I saw a handler pick their dog up because he got out of bounds and was blinking his handler. The time had not expired but the handler asked and the judge made a good call by bringing in a bye dog.

[Wildweeds]

I pulled mine out on two occasions,they squeaked a little about it but................it's my entry money,If I see training going backwards it is not beneficial to leave them down and reinforce the negative behavior.Ain't no one going to tell me to leave a dog down that is being defiant or dishonest on birdwork.

I shoot to retrieve you can not just pick your dog up during your 30 minues.

if your in a posisition where you want to pull your dog you have to tak to your judge
they stop the brace find a fill in dog and the continue the full 30 minutes with two dogs running

If you just collar your dog and pull it out of the trial ...you can get suspended

things dogs ca get pulled for a dog is not competetive for 10 minutes
out of bounds for ten combined minutes
dog rips out a second bird
dog fights

but again they will stop the brace other handler must get and hold their dog where they are in the field and another dog and handler time is restarted to finish the 30 minutes

[romeo212000]

I pulled mine out on two occasions,they squeaked a little about it but................it's my entry money,If I see training going backwards it is not beneficial to leave them down and reinforce the negative behavior.Ain't no one going to tell me to leave a dog down that is being defiant or dishonest on birdwork.

I shoot to retrieve you can not just pick your dog up during your 30 minues.

if your in a posisition where you want to pull your dog you have to tak to your judge
they stop the brace find a fill in dog and the continue the full 30 minutes with two dogs running

If you just collar your dog and pull it out of the trial ...you can get suspended

things dogs ca get pulled for a dog is not competetive for 10 minutes
out of bounds for ten combined minutes
dog rips out a second bird
dog fights

but again they will stop the brace other handler must get and hold their dog where they are in the field and another dog and handler time is restarted to finish the 30 minutes

Yup. And most judges are understanding of that. They have been there too.

[kninebirddog]

if your running into problems talk to your judge

but if you on your own accord just leash your dog ..

This is a NSTRA written rule

http://www.nstra.org/new_page_2.htm

PICKUP:
1. No dog may be taken out of the field or put on a leash before the brace is finished, except by permission of judge. Handler violating this rule could be suspended from all recognized trials for a calendar year following a violation. If a dog is picked up in a brace, a bye dog shall be put in the field for the remainder of a brace.
* Time must be called until a replacement dog is put in the field. The second handler must hold their dog in the immediate area the handler was in when time was called. If a dog is picked up, it will receive a zero (0) on its scorecard. A dog out of judgment (out of bounds) for a period of ten (10) minutes of any thirty minute brace shall be picked up and receive a zero (0) on his scorecard. A dog that is picked up and does not complete the full thirty (30) minutes of his brace shall receive a zero (0) on his scorecard.

[Duane M]

The main reason about the open field is safety for the dogs, handlers and judges. Also, the dogs must be steady to flush (wing) but not to the shot.

To play some devils advocate the same reason you use for NSTRAs open field could well be used as the reason AF and most AKC stakes do not do a retrieve. That question, why no retreive, has been asked a couple of times so there you go.

With the close to or actual hunting field conditions we run in as well as a gallery that is mounted the shooting of live birds is a detriment to the safety of the gallery, judges, bracemate, other handler and any other people who could be in the line of fire. Good excuse as any I say.

[kninebirddog]

Coke ,Pepsi, Rc Cola , sams Cola, Root beer Dr pepper

My point

I prefer one over another ..it doesn't make the other better or worse....But I am Thankful that I have a choice to Chose what I like

Matter a fact I prefer Fountain Coke but canned pepsi

I like Jim beam and Coke
But then Jack I litke better with pepsi

I like to watch my friend run their trials...

A good friend of mine just wn the National Amatuer All Age in Boonesville Ak The capper to it was a pup frm his breeding He sold took runner up....

I called him up with a big congratulations I was happy for him...he puts as much in to what drives him as I do to what drives me to like my dogs

It all takes work and dedication ...

So pick wht you like support your friends in what they like...in the end we better support each other in what we enjoy for ourselves and band together cause if we don't we will all lose

[Sharon]

As someone that has run NSTRA for years and I am doing AKC now, biggest issue I have is the number of Walking Trials to be found. We ran NSTRA 2-3 weeks out of the month, I have exactly 1 AKC Walking Trial in my area to attend this fall....Almost not worth keeping a dog broke for. There will be a few more in the spring.

Big problem in Ontario too.
No walkers left and I'm too old to start up on a horse.
My trialing days may be over.

[huntindog]

NSTRA has a lot going for it in that it allows active participation from the handler. You get to shoot your birds over your dog and have him retrieve it to you. This is never allowed in AKC. Only official gunners may shoot birds. People really like this aspect of NSTRA, and I think it accounts for a large part of it's popularity. Also an average person with a good hunting dog can do reasonably well in NSTRA, doing what he and his dog are used to: Putting birds in the bag!
Of course like all venues, doing very well in NSTRA requires better than average dogs and more dedication from the handler. The better one hopes to do, the more of each. NSTRA is a relative newcomer on the dog trial scene, and acceptance into this sport can be difficult for some. I think that it will continue to gain in popularity and overcome any challanges. No horses requiered, lots of opportunities, all trials open to all breeds, multiple trials in a weekend, etc. People just flat out like it.

I do AKC trials now, but started out in club trials that were very similar to NSTRA. My first dog Rusty did very well in that format. She has also done very well in AKC, Hunt tests and trials. So a good dog can be sucessful in any format, and I know that it takes a good dog to be sucessful in NSTRA.

I would suggest to anyone looking to get involved in birddog trialing, to dip a toe in the water of all of them and decide what you like best for your situation.

[kninebirddog]

NSTRA has a lot going for it in that it allows active participation from the handler. You get to shoot your birds over your dog and have him retrieve it to you. This is never allowed in AKC. Only official gunners may shoot birds. People really like this aspect of NSTRA, and I think it accounts for a large part of it's popularity. Also an average person with a good hunting dog can do reasonably well in NSTRA, doing what he and his dog are used to: Putting birds in the bag!
Of course like all venues, doing very well in NSTRA requires better than average dogs and more dedication from the handler. The better one hopes to do, the more of each. NSTRA is a relative newcomer on the dog trial scene, and acceptance into this sport can be difficult for some. I think that it will continue to gain in popularity and overcome any challanges. No horses requiered, lots of opportunities, all trials open to all breeds, multiple trials in a weekend, etc. People just flat out like it.

I do AKC trials now, but started out in club trials that were very similar to NSTRA. My first dog Rusty did very well in that format. She has also done very well in AKC, Hunt tests and trials. So a good dog can be sucessful in any format, and I know that it takes a good dog to be sucessful in NSTRA.
I would suggest to anyone looking to get involved in birddog trialing, to dip a toe in the water of all of them and decide what you like best for your situation.

Martin not sure if i will be able to pull this off since we are just going to be getting back from Texas on the 5th when the brittany trial is giong down south but i want to try and watch the champion trial at least a day and maybe make a day on the second weekend...if i can i hope i don't forget my knee braces i regretted it big time last trial

[slistoe]

As someone that has run NSTRA for years and I am doing AKC now, biggest issue I have is the number of Walking Trials to be found. We ran NSTRA 2-3 weeks out of the month, I have exactly 1 AKC Walking Trial in my area to attend this fall....Almost not worth keeping a dog broke for. There will be a few more in the spring.

Big problem in Ontario too.
No walkers left and I'm too old to start up on a horse.
My trialing days may be over.

The problem in Ontario is the "ribbon for everyone" crowd.

[JFS]

NSTRA has a lot going for it in that it allows active participation from the handler. You get to shoot your birds over your dog and have him retrieve it to you. This is never allowed in AKC. Only official gunners may shoot birds. People really like this aspect of NSTRA, and I think it accounts for a large part of it's popularity. Also an average person with a good hunting dog can do reasonably well in NSTRA, doing what he and his dog are used to: Putting birds in the bag!

Here's a vote for NSTRA. Just ran our first NSTRA event today in AL. Love the format- it's basically just doing what we do when we go hunting. I guess if you get serious you have to worry about scoring, but other than the "out of bounds" our time in the field today was very similar to hunt time.

[Razor]

Coke and Pepsi??

More like Class A ball and the Majors.

[ezzy333]

Different game with different rules but both just a game that people have thought up to have something to do with their dogs.

Ezzy

[romeo212000]

Coke and Pepsi??

More like Class A ball and the Majors.

Based on what? Your opinion???

More like International Skeet vs American Skeet. Same concept, require almost identical skills with a few variations.

[Greg Jennings]

I think it's fair to say that NSTRA has a lower threshold for entry than AKC or AF horseback trials.

First thing is obvious: no horse required.

Second, a hunter can take a steady to the flush dog to a NSTRA trial and have a good time. Might not win anything, but can get started. Take dog that isn't STW&S to a broke dog stake in AKC or AF and it'll likely ruin someone else's good time.

[romeo212000]

Yes and while NSTRA doesn't require STW&S AKC doesnt require a retrieve. It's a little give and take.

[ezzy333]

You are comparing football to baseball. They are different games with different rules and one is no better than another. Participate in what you and your dog like and are good at and enjoy what other people like to do also. That's what life is about and not that what I like is better than what you like.

Ezzy

[Dirtysteve]

AKC doesnt require a retrieve. It's a little give and take.

If they are retrieveing stakes they sure do require a retrieve

[romeo212000]

Sorry I should have been more specific. Many AKC trials do not require the retrieve.