Pheasant hunting w/pointers without letting training slip?

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:11 am

I have had someone invite me to go hunt their private land that they say is thick with pheasants but they dont have any dogs (perks of having good dogs). One of my dogs has hunted pheasants alot and the other is pretty young and only hunted quail. They are both trial dogs and both hold their birds solid. I know the rule about not shooting birds that the dog does not point, but many times a dog will be working scent and the bird will run and get up in front of them before they establish a point. I do not want to create any bad habits in my dogs especially my young ones. So what is the best way to hunt pointing dogs (GSP's) without potentially causing them to not be steady by shooting birds they do not point? I cannot have them lose their steadiness because if they stop holding their birds I obviously cannot trial them. Any advice?

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:22 am

with a dog you want to trial you probably shouldn't do it.... lots of pheasants in a concentrated area is going to get them chasing in my experience, mine usaully go nuts in that situation

sound like fun though

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:28 am

Romeo I did the exact thing you are looking at last weekend up at Fairview and look at it differently than Bobman. I took two of my trial dogs, along with one of my veteran pheasant dogs all three had Pheasant experience in the past just Maddie had probably ten times as much. The way I looked at it such a hunt would show me any holes I needed to work on and gave me an oppurtunity to view potential issues that would not show up otherwise. I looked at it from this perspective it is better to find a hole while hunting than while on the course, the same way I do any time I hunt any dog.

Chief_dog · Post by **Chief_dog** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:32 am

As long as the dog keeps its manners and stops to flush on those birds that get up wild, I'll shoot anything that the dogs don't intentionally take out. My Ace dog has never broke on a bird in his field trial career (I probably just jinxed myself :roll: ), and he is my best wild pheasant dog.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:39 am

I wouldn't consider it a problem either,I've got the exact situation you describe,I lease land with lot's of pheasants and I hunt them with my trial dog and my washouts.I would think that it would be a good experiance for your younger dog and just old hat pointing birds for your trial dog.If the place is thick with them you shouldn't have a problem shooting birds over solid points.Consider this it'll be an excellent opportunity for stop to flushes.If your host can't resist shooting wildflushers hunt dogless I guess.I've shot wildflushing pheasants at times and never noticed anything bad happening with the dog training wise.They weren't roading the birds up the birds popped up within gun range and the dog stopped to flush,bang dead bird,because I consider this to be within the rules where pheasants are concerned.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:51 am

As has been said. A good training opportunity for stop to flush and steadiness. You may have to be more trainer than shooter.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:03 am

Thats kind of what I was thinking about looking at working the dogs more than hunting so to speak. I would like to shoot one but Im not worried about me personally trying to shoot every bird that gets up. They are both trial dogs so it will be important to make sure they stay on their manners. Would it be better to only work one dog at a time or would two at a time be okay? So I guess the key is make sure they stop to flush if a bird flushes wild or is running and as always do not shoot any birds they take on whether on accident or on purpose.

Also, my younger dog has been woah broke using the collar around her belly as her que. I do not normally hunt her with it on her belly but consistently work her with it on there. Would it be a good idea to hunt her like this on pheasants since we will be working on not chasing.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:16 am

I'd take them. Don't see any problem so long as you insist on the same level of preformance. A pheasant is just another bird. Does things different at times but just another bird. The bird work you expect from your dog should not wavier. I would not shoot a bird that the dog stopped to flush on. I'd just go let the dog know it did a good job.

One more though. Your either a dog man or a hunter. If your a hunter then the dogs preformance doesn't matter all that much so long as you get birds. If your a dog man, it's the dogs preformance that does matter. Be one or the other, it's real hard to be both with a dog down.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:07 pm

I have never trialed and this is why. From what I have gleaned from people I know, and what I have read, a good trial dog ain't worth a nickel for real hunting, and a real hunting dog ain't worth a nickel for trialing. Completely 2 different entities. I have learned in a relitively short amount of time that when a potential customer asks if we trial our dogs, that it is a loaded question... If you say yes they might hang up. If you say no, they sometimes are no longer quite so interested. I would like to keep one pup from a litter and try it though. I just can't seem to break that barrier between the two right now.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:50 pm

From what I have gleaned from people I know, and what I have read, a good trial dog ain't worth a nickel for real hunting, and a real hunting dog ain't worth a nickel for trialing. Completely 2 different entities.

Yep cant be the same at all. One dog this weekend palced every stake she was ran in and the other was the top horseback SD his puppy and derby years in the state. Wish someone would tell them they cant hunt.

Sorry man but every time I read that kinda stuff I am reminded of when a certain person who was banned from here last year went hunting with a pup I raised as a trial prospect and went on to win multiple cover dog stakes. That pup whoopped his brag meat dogs so bad on Sharpies, Pheasants and Huns he would not even admit it on the boards, along with a guy who lived where they hunteds own dogs. I think that guy was banned from here a couple years back as well.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:16 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:I have never trialed and this is why. From what I have gleaned from people I know, and what I have read, a good trial dog ain't worth a nickel for real hunting, and a real hunting dog ain't worth a nickel for trialing. Completely 2 different entities. I have learned in a relitively short amount of time that when a potential customer asks if we trial our dogs, that it is a loaded question... If you say yes they might hang up. If you say no, they sometimes are no longer quite so interested. I would like to keep one pup from a litter and try it though. I just can't seem to break that barrier between the two right now.

Now that is a load of bull hockey, and I know from experience. As I said my oldest female has had as much wild birds as any dog and she is just shy of being a champion. I fully expect to get her there this spring. I took my dogs hunting with another guy who owns the stud I plan on breeding her to about 3 weeks ago and that dog pointed 4 coveys one day and 5 the next. By the way he is a 2x Champion. Someone better tell him he ain't worth a lick in the field and stop that crap. I think that is what your average meat hunter tells himself because he knows his dogs aren't as broke and well trained, so that is how they console themselves. Kind of like the people who say "I want a hunting buddy not a robot!". That is until they hunt over a fully broke dog who knows how to mind his manners in the field.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:53 pm

LOL I figured that remark would get someones hackels up.

Now I'm not saying I totally agree with what I have heard, but I have heard it alot. I hear alot of stuff (especially here) that makes for a good arguement. That's why I could'nt resist casting that out to see what I caught.

Some time ago, a newcomer to this site posted a thread bragging on his young birddog for something it had done afield.. His dog had pointed, the rooster started to head, so the dog repositioned itself between the rooster and the hunter. The guy was proud and posted the nice move to pin the bird in and get it bagged. NOW.. some "trialer" in the next post gave a lengthy disertation about how the aforementioned dog would have been docked x amount of points for breaking point. Then went on to say that they have seen dogs lock up on point and hold when the bird was 60 ft or so ahead of them. :roll:

I myself have no basis for comparison. I understand that trials are a great way to exhibit dogs and to gain accomplishments with them. I am interested in them, but they are just not for me.. just like polotics. (which I hear there is alot of in FT) Idunno.

I threw this in for the sake of conversation and to see how fast the FT's would tear up.

JK.

SO if I razz you about the pro's and con's of trialing pointers I will be banned from this site?? HOW WILL I EVER SLEEP NOW

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:10 pm

Only way that dog you mention on the Pheasant would have been docked points is if the handler had called point and began to make a flushing effort. A repositioning before that is not, USUALLY, docked by good judges for sure in a wild bird stake especially.

Did not get my hackles up at all just my humor bone since I heard the same from so many internet experts, most who have never set foot on a trial grounds. Shoot I did not even trial this past season so it's not like I am a "hardcore" trialer, just enjoy em and really appreciate the dogs abilities.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:30 pm

Yeah I understand.. I was merely seeing what reaction it would get. You can't deny that there is and will always be argument between the two. Heck, I have a mentor who has raised birddogs for approx 30 years and I mentioned I might be interested in trialing. "Steve" dissuaded me telling me about all the political hogwash and that until you have trialed long enough for the judges to get to know you and your dogs, it would'nt matter how good they were, they would'nt place you.
So.. I was a little disapointed (as I was hoping he would show me the ropes) and I have yet to try it. I have no complex about trials because I have dogs that

aren't as broke and well trained

H*ll I have pups and prospects that would be great canidates I think, and ones that would'nt be worth a sh*t for it.

We see Ft's buy pups/dogs, canhunters, and wild bird foothunters. What they do with them is up to them. Right now, until I find the right person to "learn me" & win me on the idea of trialing my dogs, I will hunt and train and be happy. (and less broke!)

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:45 pm

edited out as it offended someone

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:46 pm

bobman wrote:with a dog you want to trial you probably shouldn't do it.... lots of pheasants in a concentrated area is going to get them chasing in my experience, mine usaully go nuts in that situation

sound like fun though

This made me laugh, Goodness Gracious a birddog hunt wild birds??????? Can't Have That !!!!!

Okay I don't trial I just had to razz bobman on that. I'm not trying to bag on you. It's just funny from the perspective of someone who doesn't trial..... Isn't the point of trials to showcase a dogs hunting abilities???????

BUT

If you expected the same manners out of a dog while hunting wild birds as when trialing wouldn't your dogs be all the better for it. A bunch of wild birds on a private piece of ground. SOUNDS GREAT!! Sure you will probably watch way more fly away than you bag. SO WHAT. After being schooled by a bunch of wild birds wouldn't they handle the pen raised birds at the next trial much better as long as you hold up your end of the bargain ??? Shouldn't all pointing dogs learn not to chase ???? Wild birds will teach them that there is no POINT in it....

Are you seriously worried about wild birds teaching your dog bad manners?? Shouln't it be the pen raised birds you are worried about...

Like I said I don't trial. Although I don't have anything against them and would like to got watch sometime.
SO
If the crowd that says a trial dog shouldn't hunt is right, then they are right ,I'm not saying they aren't.
I just hope they are wrong.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:29 pm

We have plenty of serious posts without anyone posting just to create an arguement. There are other boards that may need that to get people to post but we don't have that problem.

Ezzy

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:15 pm

I have watched what were deemed good trial dogs that weren't good hunting dogs. Then again I wouldn't have called them good trial dogs myself. I have watched good hunting dogs that had everything they needed to make good trial dogs, except an owner that wanted to train and trial them. It is my opinion that no dog is ever a good trial dog until first it is a great hunting dog. With a hunting dog, beauty is in the eye of the owner and the observer's don't count; as it should be. In a trial dog beauty is in the eye of the judge and your opinion don't count; as it should be. There are to many judges that need to take their assignments much more seriously. Then again most hunter's don't really take training their dog as seriously as they could.

Only great hunting dogs should ever receive a rating of "champion".

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:We have plenty of serious posts without anyone posting just to create an arguement. There are other boards that may need that to get people to post but we don't have that problem.

Ezzy

Ezzy
if you are refering to my post. I apologize. I was not trying to create an argument by posting it. At most I was simply trying to add constructive criticism to the discussion in a friendly manner.

And I am serious in my opinion that I don't see how hunting wild birds would hurt a trial dog as long as all the same manners of dog and shooter are expected. But take my opinion at what it is because I don't trial. If someone who does trial differs with my opinion that is fine. I won't argue with them, but I would be curious as to the why and how and hope they wouldn't mind me asking questions about their reasoning.

for bobman I apologize for singling out your post. I just saw it as the post that sparked my interest in the discussion. And was intrigued by the differences in perspective.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:35 pm

I will say this. There is nothing better for any dog trial or meat than wild birds. My question was what are some things to avoid to help keep from creating bad habits.

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:50 pm

romeo212000 wrote:I will say this. There is nothing better for any dog trial or meat than wild birds. My question was what are some things to avoid to help keep from creating bad habits.

IMO Avoid the temptation to shoot the wild flushes, or bumped birds (sometimes hard to do, and alot of times too hard to tell what was a wild flush and what was a bump). Don't overhandle them, let them learn not to chase and how much pressure to put on the birds. When they do get it right, don't miss.(LOL). Don't worry about how many are in the bag.

Have fun it sounds like a great oppurtunity.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:57 pm

Sadie__Marie wrote: BUT

If you expected the same manners out of a dog while hunting wild birds as when trialing wouldn't your dogs be all the better for it. A bunch of wild birds on a private piece of ground. SOUNDS GREAT!! Sure you will probably watch way more fly away than you bag. SO WHAT. After being schooled by a bunch of wild birds wouldn't they handle the pen raised birds at the next trial much better as long as you hold up your end of the bargain ??? Shouldn't all pointing dogs learn not to chase ???? Wild birds will teach them that there is no POINT in it.... Are you seriously worried about wild birds teaching your dog bad manners?? Shouln't it be the pen raised birds you are worried about...

Out of the mouths of innocent babes come's another breath of fresh air! Very good post!!!!

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:38 pm

I hunt my trial dogs with my son and his hunting buddies, with them, if it flies it dies, or at least it will get shot at 2 or 3 times. With a young dog it causes me some extra training, with the older dogs it is just good practice.

But then I don't worry about hunting my dogs with unsteady dogs either, they will see it in a trial.

I think most worry about those sort of things too much. Not saying it is good thing to shoot knocked birds or to have another dog steal their points or break at the flush/shot, just saying it is some of things they have to learn to overcome.

Biggest problem I have with hunting my trial dogs is that on weak, planted pen birds, that just flutter up and back down at the shot, I have to be careful that they don't circle back after the find to make a retrieve, which judges call a delayed chase. The dog just thinks we left a bird back there.

I would go, try to keep them steady, but have a good time, not worry about it, and do some more training when you get back. What you might lose with a break or two in a trial you will make up for in their improved drive and hunting ability.

Neil

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:26 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:I have never trialed and this is why. From what I have gleaned from people I know, and what I have read, a good trial dog ain't worth a nickel for real hunting, and a real hunting dog ain't worth a nickel for trialing. Completely 2 different entities. I have learned in a relitively short amount of time that when a potential customer asks if we trial our dogs, that it is a loaded question... If you say yes they might hang up. If you say no, they sometimes are no longer quite so interested. I would like to keep one pup from a litter and try it though. I just can't seem to break that barrier between the two right now.

All I can say is that if you do indeed try your hand at trialing you are in for some surprises... and with the kind of attitude you are displaying on this post, some of those surprises are likely to be humbling ones. It can be a very demanding game, on both dog and trainer/handler, if you want to play at a serious level.

If you are interested in trialing because you think it will help you sell your dogs, my advice to you is to forget it and concentrate on the hunter market.

The reason a breeder trials their dogs is to prove them... and to find out how to improve them. The trial dog has to do it on trial day in front of objective, impartial judges and in front of a gallery of spectators. The trialer has to put it out there for everyone to see. you cant just talk the talk...on trial day you gotta walk the walk. Trials are a crucible, a way to expose shortcomings in a dog and in a handler like no other activity. They can provide clear direction in what must be improved, in dog breeding, dog training & finishing and handler/trainer education.

By the way...what the heck is "real hunting"? What then is "fake hunting'?

Maybe I've been doing it all wrong for the last fifty years or so?

RayG

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:09 am

I am not going to argue the point any further.. Because I have been "formally warned" not to do so.. Its not allowed on GDF :roll:

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:24 am

No, PFP, you've been warned that personal attacks and blatantly sexist stupidities aren't tolerated here.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 am

No offense Ezzy and Greg but seriously guys PFPs post was not what I consider an attack or even flaming, maybe ill informed but not an attack and as such it does lead to the real information coming out.Like I said I found it pretty dang funny myself. Besides if ya look at his dogs ya will see theres a few CH in the blood, must be some reason why he has that in there.

I'll be the first to admit there is some politicking in the trial game, worse in some venues than others and when ya get to individual grounds it gets worse. Just think y'all who do trial how many times have ya seen a dog place when ya knew it was not the best dog of the day? Or how about those grounds where it seems a certain one or two folks dogs always get those first two or three prime braces of the day. I've heard the storys in every venue and sure seen it inmine with my own eyes. Plus there are/were some big time dogs in the trial game who never in their lives saw a wild bird because their handlers never saw the need for wild birds. Some of y'all know I speak the truth on that last one.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:44 am

Duane M wrote:No offense Ezzy and Greg but seriously guys PFPs post was not what I consider an attack or even flaming,

Never said it was in a public post. You aren't privy to the PMs that were exchanged. We are. End of story.

I have a simple guideline. If I think it's something that would get me fired, I'm not going to allow it here.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:08 am

Greg I was reffering to Ezzys post below:

We have plenty of serious posts without anyone posting just to create an arguement. There are other boards that may need that to get people to post but we don't have that problem.

Ezzy

Far as the PM issue goes thats another story I am not interested in. Thats between y'all and the cyber fence post. May well be issues I have no idea of but it seemed Ezzys posts was talking about the initial post that got this all started, not anything in PMs.

Shoot I think guys like Ray, Neil and others who actually trial and have for a long time really handled it well myself. It was obvious from some of the posts who has actually dropped the tailgate and who has only dropped the cyber tailgate.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:10 am

Neil Mace wrote:I hunt my trial dogs with my son and his hunting buddies, with them, if it flies it dies, or at least it will get shot at 2 or 3 times. With a young dog it causes me some extra training, with the older dogs it is just good practice.

But then I don't worry about hunting my dogs with unsteady dogs either, they will see it in a trial.

I think most worry about those sort of things too much. Not saying it is good thing to shoot knocked birds or to have another dog steal their points or break at the flush/shot, just saying it is some of things they have to learn to overcome.

Biggest problem I have with hunting my trial dogs is that on weak, planted pen birds, that just flutter up and back down at the shot, I have to be careful that they don't circle back after the find to make a retrieve, which judges call a delayed chase. The dog just thinks we left a bird back there.

I would go, try to keep them steady, but have a good time, not worry about it, and do some more training when you get back. What you might lose with a break or two in a trial you will make up for in their improved drive and hunting ability.

Neil

x2

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:18 pm

Sadie_Marie wrote:

"If the crowd that says a trial dog shouldn't hunt is right, then they are right ,I'm not saying they aren't.
I just hope they are wrong."

All I can say to that is ..."So do I."

Hunting a trial dog, no matter where and no matter what "kind" of birds or what species... does pose some additional challenges but in the end, you wind up with a better dog because it has gained additional experience that it otherwise would not. Hunting wild pheasants with a dog that is accustomed to liberated quail is going to give that dog a whole new perspective on the art of pinning a bird down, like as not. Should be a lot of fun to watch the dog figure it out.

If and when the dog messes up and with pheasants, and it probably will...you correct it and move on, just as you would any other time. The good news is that there are no rules against it while hunting so you can have an e-collar on the dog while hunting, or a garmin astro or whatever you want, so knowing what a dog is doing and applying a timely correction is a whole lot easier to do.

Go have fun.

RayG

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:36 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Sadie_Marie wrote:

"If the crowd that says a trial dog shouldn't hunt is right, then they are right ,I'm not saying they aren't.
I just hope they are wrong."

All I can say to that is ..."So do I."

Hunting a trial dog, no matter where and no matter what "kind" of birds or what species... does pose some additional challenges but in the end, you wind up with a better dog because it has gained additional experience that it otherwise would not. Hunting wild pheasants with a dog that is accustomed to liberated quail is going to give that dog a whole new perspective on the art of pinning a bird down, like as not. Should be a lot of fun to watch the dog figure it out.

If and when the dog messes up and with pheasants, and it probably will...you correct it and move on, just as you would any other time. The good news is that there are no rules against it while hunting so you can have an e-collar on the dog while hunting, or a garmin astro or whatever you want, so knowing what a dog is doing and applying a timely correction is a whole lot easier to do.

Go have fun.

RayG

Just so you guys know both dogs have been hunted on wild quail, my oldest one has had a bunch of wild birds shot over her. My youngest one not nearly as many but make no mistake, these are hunting dogs. I just wanted to know if there were and things to really watch out for with pheasants specifically.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:52 pm

Romeo -

Heck that's easy.

Pheasants will run out on a dog's point in a heartbeat, tempting the dog to break point and trail. Pheasants will run to the end of a piece of cover, hesitate, and if they feel the slightest bit threateded, will flush wild, also testing a dog. Cock pheasants, when they do hold actually hold for the dog , make a GAWDAWFUL ruckus getting up that can un-nerve some young dogs a bit. When you work to the end of a piece of cover. like a draw or ditch bordered by harvested fields, several birds might get up all at once or in waves as the ditch or draw peters out, and that can also mess with a dog's mind.

If you can handle it, I would suggest running dogs in pairs, because two dogs have a much greated chance of pinning a pheasant either betweeen themselves and the hunter or just between themselves, allowing the hunter time to get there.

RayG

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:16 pm

Thanks Ray. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. So if one of my dogs slams a point but then loses their style and gets this confused look on their face (which means they lost scent and the bird is probably running, I know that look) should I be quick to tell them its okay to relocate? I have done this with them on wild quail that were running like there is no tomorrow, and it has worked fairly well. Sometimes the dog bumps them and they flush wild and we watch the covey down and go hunt them. Sometimes the dog chases them down and they get tired of running long enough for the dogs to point and a hunter to get in there and flush. Is this kind of the way I need to hunt these pheasants as well?

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:50 pm

RayGubernat wrote: If you can handle it, I would suggest running dogs in pairs, because two dogs have a much greated chance of pinning a pheasant either betweeen themselves and the hunter or just between themselves, allowing the hunter time to get there.

RayG

Actually, this is one of the strongest arguments I have never seen iterated for dogs with a lack of "manners". Dogs that quickly and willingly back another dog pointing are at a disadvantage when working running pheasants. I didn't realize this until we started teaching our dogs manners and realized how many times that having 2 or 3 dogs working over the same running bird would cause them to go into hiding to try and let the dogs work by.

However, that shortcoming has been made up for by having dogs that work the birds faster and more aggressively from body scent with less foot tracking. That also makes the roosters sit. Just like working cattle, approaching deer or trying to work in closer on rabbits and grouse for shots with the 22. Angle past them and suddenly stop and they will freeze to avoid detection - get on their trail or work directly towards them and they will never stop moving because they think you have them located. Pretty simple stuff really.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:14 am

Pheasants are going to act up, and your hunting partners that I assumed were going to hunt with you because they have no dog at the new place are going to shoot them no matter how the dogs handle them, aren't they? That was my reasoning FWIW.

On the other hand I hunt everything with my shorthairs including pointed rabbits and pointed deer with no problems, although they certainly dont handle everything perfectly, and when I'm hunting pheasants I myself am guilty of shooting birds not perfectly handled also. Pheasants don't play by any set of rules I am aware of, I shot one out of a tree last year in ND ( I did try to flush him

).

Quail act like gentlemen so I treat them with respect, those sneaky chinese birds not so much.

Lots of fun take the dogs hunting.....

Mike Clutter · Post by **Mike Clutter** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:44 am

I have to laugh at these threads.....hunters that bash trialing and the dogs. How many trialers have you seen bash hunting?
Exactly....... none! Like the post from PFP I'l never trial because so and so said it's real political and you'll never win blah blah blah.
It's like saying I'll never eat ice cream cuz' chuck said it was no good, Won't even try it, he said I won't like it. Hey that's your opinion and this America so knock yourself out. While we're at it the world is flat too. Watch out for that horizon.

Why do all the HB pros go to the prairies here and Canada to train? Wild birds! Ask guys like Doc Favor, Neil Mace, Gunner,R Heaton, The Gulledges, Jerry Paddock, Ross Callaway, Me, The Woodys, Jim West, Sean Derrig, Rich Barber, Doug Spencer,Brett Bryan, Amatulli. All these people run and train and HUNT field trial dogs.

Are pheasants hard on trial dogs? Not any harder than they are on any other dogs. The birds don't care what kind of dog you got. If you are going to a place that 75 or 100 birds are going to flush out of a buffer strip or food plot all at once, I doubt your dog can hold it together, it could but do you care. can you?

I live in Iowa, all I've known is pheasants and quail. That's what we got, that's what I use. I have broke dogs. If they blow up so what I have plenty of time before spring trial season to steady them up. I doubt you'll do any permanent damage.

If you have good dogs and you don't hunt them, that's kind of like having a race car and only driving it to the grocery store. to each his own I guess

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:17 am

Quail act like gentlemen so I treat them with respect, those sneaky chinese birds not so much.

Hey Bobman come on out to Oklahoma bet ya our Bobs will change your mind on them being a gentleman bird. Them devils run as much as any ditch parrot nowdays but I stll treat em with respect.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:43 am

Duane is right. The bobwhite holding for a flush while the dog stands on point is a romantic notion that frankly does not happen nearly as often as many would be lead to believe here in Oklahoma. I have seen those little buggers run like pheasants. And don't even get me started on blue quail.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 pm

The quail I shoot are all in Kansas but because I dont hunt with trial dogs they hold perfectly

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:13 pm

Oh now ya gone and done it!!!!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:12 pm

Heck Ray not only do cock pheasant getting up unnerve a young dog it startle me when I walk in on a point and know what is going to happen.

I think you made a valid point with that statement though.

Edited for language by Ezzy

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:44 pm

Like the post from PFP I'l never trial because so and so said it's real political and you'll never win blah blah blah.

I never stated that I would never trial.. As a matter of fact I stated more than once that I would like to try my hand in it at some point, just not right now.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:07 pm

Romeo -

Your plan of attack seems reasonable to me.

What I was kinda getting at was this:

When it comes to those nasty ditch parrots doing their thing, even the best of dogs will have some lapses, from failing to hold to failing to back to taking steps to outright chasing.

You gotta expect them to mess up, if only just a little and not get all twisted up about it. An experienced, trained dog will probably already know it messed up and be half expecting a correction, so a mild reminder in the field might be all that is appropriate.

Scott L. makes a valid point that I hadn't really considered, because I really haven't hunted running pheasants much since I started field trialing. The dogs I hunted them with over the years were not steady, just staunch and they learned how to tag team those road runners.

You can always get out the spit and polish back at home in the training field, but I still say the education the birds will give the dogs is well worth it.

RayG