Stud Dog Options

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MOOSE
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Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:37 pm

Ok here is the pedigree link. We haven't decided to breed her yet as we want to show and do some hunt testing with her before making that decision. And of course hip checks and all but want some input on where to look into for a possible stud dog that would cross well pedigree wise. Throw them at me......

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1123

I was almost thinking getting some hustler lines back toward the front but not quite sure.

Just personal prefrence I am going to not breed back any Abe Lane into the mix on this one.

Thanks for your input.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by snips » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:41 pm

I have frozen semen on Snips Ticked Off, my Hustler son. We have a couple of sons of his too. I have semen on my Logan, and his brother, Rebel is still alive. 10 yrs old, a 7 x NSTRA Ch. His sire was a 10X Ch They are all on the website with pedigrees.
brenda

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MOOSE
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:48 pm

Thanks Brenda. I do have your website in my favorites list. I will look at the pedigrees. I am not sure how soon this would be happening as it depends on how soon we start showing and such.
Beth
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Dave Quindt
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:00 pm

There's no way anyone can make a recommendation based on a pedigree alone.

What are the strengths and weaknesses of your dog? What about siblings? What are the strengths and weaknesses of her parents?

First, come up with that list. Then, find proven sires that have been shown to throw those traits missing in your dog into the pups that they sire. From that list, find the sires that also complement the strengths in your dog. If you want to compare pedigrees at that point, so be it.

Hunt the snot out of your dog, go try to put a MH or UT1 or NSTRA CH on your dog. By the time you've completed any one of those titles, you'll have a really accurate view of what your dog's strengths and weaknesses are. Even if you never succeed in getting a title on your dog, the process will be equally as useful. You'll also have seen enough other dogs to have a good idea what's out there.

Focus on finding great proven studs, not on finding great pedigrees.

JMO,
Dave

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:00 pm

Dave-
Thanks for you opinion. I will be trialing this dog and such along with doing show work with her. I know what I am looking to improve in her already and do have a great list going at this point. I don't know anything about her siblings. She was a drop off with papers in hand at a shelter and was HW positive so we battled with getting that taken care of for the last year and making sure she is 100%. I do know many of the dogs in her background as far as the Abe Lane stuff goes and I am not seeing anything that they have that will compliment her.

I also now have a deper understanding of line breeding and because I don't know much about the dogs real close up front I want to get some of the blood that I do know from back further closer to the front again and also feel if I can find that dog that they will compliment many of her weaknesses.

I am not going into this blindly by any means. And I will be making sure whomever has the stud dog will also help be a mentor too as many breeders have become to me.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:32 pm

MOOSE wrote:Dave-
I also now have a deeper understanding of line breeding and because I don't know much about the dogs real close up front I want to get some of the blood that I do know from back further closer to the front again and also feel if I can find that dog that they will compliment many of her weaknesses.
Beth,

How do you know that the weaknesses in your dog are not coming from those dogs further back that you think you want to linebreed on? What do you think linebreeding will give you that just breeding to an exceptionally proven stud, regardless of pedigree, won't?

You asked for stud recommendations; what are the traits in your dog you are looking to fix?
MOOSE wrote: And I will be making sure whomever has the stud dog will also help be a mentor too as many breeders have become to me.
Why do you think the owner of the stud dog has any insight into this? They might be nothing more than really lucky in picking the right pup. If the owner of the stud is also the breeder of the litter that produced the stud, then you might have something to talk about.

FWIW,
Dave

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:05 am

Dave-
I appreciate your concern but I am not going into this blindly with no reasearch and no knowledge of anything. The Hustler lines is not what contributed to this girls flaws. The Hustlers lines have in them what I am looking to correct. The studs I will look at are going to be proven first and foremost but I want to also have something that is going to compliment her bloodlines as they are nice in the back and I want to bring that back to the front.

Hey at least I have a goal in mind when I consider breeding. That is a lot more than what most people have these days.

You can go on all you want about finding a proven stud dog and such but I will be going with a dog that compliments her both in structur and in bloodlines. If I can't find that dog then the breeding won't happen bottom line.

So if you have any good opinions on what you feel are proven stud dogs send them my way.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:12 am

What are the outstanding qualities that make you want to breed her?

scotly50

Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by scotly50 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:40 am

Greg Jennings wrote:What are the outstanding qualities that make you want to breed her?
Now that is the real question. Well said

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by adogslife » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:21 am

A hugh downfall in breeding practices is that the breeder breds what they have in hopes of improvement.
It may takes genrations to fix flaws. It may never be improved.In the mean time, registered dogs are being produced who may likely be bred, as well. Where does it end? Breeding can not be an experiment for the breeder unless they are prepared to "deal" with the litters.
What is so great about a dog that it needs to be bred?

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by wems2371 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:35 am

So if you have any good opinions on what you feel are proven stud dogs send them my way.
Thought this was the question at hand......

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Dave Quindt » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:42 am

wems2371 wrote:
So if you have any good opinions on what you feel are proven stud dogs send them my way.
Thought this was the question at hand......
The question is too vague to allow for any meaningful response. That is the issue at hand.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:14 pm

First I want you all to know that if I don’t respond quickly it is because I am at work and it is hard to respond here. I actually am writing this in word doc. First and then will copy and paste it over so I don’t get in trouble for being online when I am not on break or at lunch.

What makes one dog a good representation of the breed is open to interpretation. I have no issue discussing her strengths and weaknesses. But what may be a weakness now may not be in 6 months once her training is fully under way. You all act like I am just going to take a female dog that hasn’t proven herself and breed her. I have already stated that she will be a show CH with the UKC ( I won’t show AKC for the lack of them allowing black colored GSP’s). She will also have a hunt title on her whether that be with the AKC or NAVHDA. She will also have her hips and elbows check with OFA. Have her eyes CERF’d. Those above things alone are WAY more than most breeders around us do.

But she has a long way to come before the hunt testing will come. If you all must know she came from a VERY VERY abusive background. Was almost 20 lbs under weight when she got here weighing in at 35 lbs and she is now a healthy 55-60 lbs. She was full of Heartworms which took about 6 months to treat with a lot of rest and down time. She was scared of everything as I am sure the person before her hit her often. She had been left outside to fend for herself and was not taken care of. In the short year we have had her she has become bird crazy. Points very well and loves to retrieve. We (me and the co-owner) are now working on her slight gun-shy issues which we’re working on and she has such a great trainability she is overcoming this with no problems at all. This shows me she has the personality and confidence that just needed someone to bring it out in her.

She is conformationally very correct. Great angles in front and back, beautiful head with well set ears, teeth are great, eyes are nice and dark, tail is set in a good position, has a beautiful double coat. The one area of her I want to help improve is her chest. It isn’t as deep as I like but isn’t horrible or out of standard. She is right in the middle of the standard for her size as well.

Now that she is off of resting for her Heartworms we will be able to evaluate her bidability, dependence and pure natural ability as we can really push her in her training. She will also become a certified therapy dog and possible be tested CGC.

How many more things do you all want me to test her in? To me to have a dog that is:
1. Show CH
2. At least NA if not higher in NAVHDA, and or JH/SH
3. CGC/Therapy Dog Certified
4. Has Hips,elbows, and eyes certified

Shows that dog is well proven to represent the breed. I very well understand the responsibility of having pups and that they are my responsibility for life. I am a very open and honest person. We had an “oops” litter about a year ago. Not with this dog but a different one. You can ask any one of those owners about me and how I am always checking in on the pups and making sure that they are doing well along with answering any questions of the new owners. Once a pup is born they are a part of my family. I also sold those pups on a spay/neuter contract and will do the same with this litter unless I see something that stands out. Then that pup will be on a co-ownership basis only until proven. I appreciate all you being concerned but it isn’t like I am just some joe blow who decided that on the next heat cycle no matter what I am breeding this female. I feel the steps we are taking are the right ones. And I will make the dog prove herself before breeding her. There are no opportunities for “oops” litters as the male has been neutered. And the males I am looking at are from VERY reputable kennels. I just wanted some other opinions on what may compliment her . If I had a nice pic of her I would post it but can’t find any right off hand.

So back to topic on hand feel free to email me, pm me or post anything that you all would see as good proven stock that would compliment her lines.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by adogslife » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:47 pm

Counting your chicken before they hatch, I see.
Good luck I hope all turns out they way you invision.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:10 pm

I was not aware that trying to plan ahead was such a problem. It was clearly spelled out that unless the dog developed as planned she wouldn't be bred but if she did what would any of you suggest or recommend. Sounds very reasonable to me for someone to ask that question from people whose opinion she respected. The responsws now are exactly why most of you wouldn't ask that question. It does little to promote good will or respect to start in critising someone for doing it right.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:12 pm

adogslife wrote:Counting your chicken before they hatch, I see.
Good luck I hope all turns out they way you invision.
Would you rather have me go to the dog next door and not research anything?

It is better to have a goal in mind and work toward that than to just say hey that dog looks good.....
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by adogslife » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:27 pm

It occured to me to ask if you have gone back to the breeder to confirm the that the dog is indeed theirs. You also implied that her conformation is champion worthy, maybe it is, and that you would be looking more so for flaws in her hunting. Kennel blindness is a dangerous thing. You mentioned that her teeth are good, are you referring to her bite? It may be of concerned that a young dog that was abused would have the correct temperamnet to be bred. It is the dam that passes along most of the temperament to the puppies through the first 6-8 weeks.
I commend your research and willingness to maybe not breed her at all. You are an example of a responsible breeder.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:14 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I was not aware that trying to plan ahead was such a problem. It was clearly spelled out that unless the dog developed as planned she wouldn't be bred but if she did what would any of you suggest or recommend. Sounds very reasonable to me for someone to ask that question from people whose opinion she respected. The responsws now are exactly why most of you wouldn't ask that question. It does little to promote good will or respect to start in critising someone for doing it right.

Ezzy
Agree wholeheartedly!!
Researching is important and it can take a long time to sort through things. Even then you really need some experience to see the weakness and strengths in certain lines. Strengths are usually bragged to you, but the weaknesses may be sorta hidden. Some things that have surprized me personally as I have seen very well titled dogs throwing these: dog to dog aggression, bite occlusion issues, eye issues, lack of natural pointing instict though very birdy,trainable and ultimately titled, reduction in retrieving desire, not so straight front legs, tendancy to throw some pups with kinked tails, Tri-color pups in lines occasionally. You have probably seen lines with all of these on here with brags. I had no idea when I got started. I very easily could have bought from lines with the tri-color. Some folks don't mind that and the dogs are great hunters. Maybe the occasional tri pup is fine with you cause most everything else is near perfect. Maybe you don't want to breed for retrieving desire cause you FF all your dogs and don't care. (which I will try not to digress on!) Point is IF it bothers you, you may be out of luck if you don't do your homework as most people won't tell a "newbie" even like myself. I am not trashing the lines or the dogs. They are from awesome lines. LOVE many traits about these lines. I am just saying you need to do your research LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO DO :wink: and find out what you are getting into the best you can. Balance and focus.
Did you list out your favorite traits yet? I kinda skimmed I admit :oops:
They may not all be stuff your girl has, but you want.
If you do I can maybe give you a little advise for each of the trait(s)
Does your girl have a specific trait you do not like? If so it would be good to at least make sure your male choice does not carry this. And rather strongly throws against it even.

Tentatively I would tell you to look at Shooter's Shortairs and linebreed on Trekker and Mr. Manly. Trekker's get seem to be dogs I personally like very much. Also Hustler has some strong great attributes.
Edit, link added: http://www.shootersshorthairs.com/

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:17 pm

This dogs temperment is IMPECIBLE! The crap she has put up with from our two year old son is enough to show she is a true specamin of a good temperment for a dog. And have you ever had a dog get certified for therapy dog work or CGC? She is able to get these certifications now not down the road. So that shows her temperment in and of itself.

I hold my breeding stock to the highest regard. I have made mistakes in the past that I am not going to make again. Once again she will not be bred unless she does achieve the things I have mentioned in past posts. If this it not good enough for you then so be it. I don't care. And yeah I expect all my breeding stock to achieve this or they are fixed no questions asked.

I have contacted the breeder and have confirmed she is out of their stock. They also have no further interest in her.

This is not a post about "what do you guys think of breeding this dog". I will be the one to make that decision based on my criteria and if she will be a betterment to the breed.

I don't mind answering all your questions but lets stop beating around a bush here folks.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:20 pm

mountaindogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I was not aware that trying to plan ahead was such a problem. It was clearly spelled out that unless the dog developed as planned she wouldn't be bred but if she did what would any of you suggest or recommend. Sounds very reasonable to me for someone to ask that question from people whose opinion she respected. The responsws now are exactly why most of you wouldn't ask that question. It does little to promote good will or respect to start in critising someone for doing it right.

Ezzy
Agree wholeheartedly!!
Researching is important and it can take a long time to sort through things. Even then you really need some experience to see the weakness and strengths in certain lines. Strengths are usually bragged to you, but the weaknesses may be sorta hidden. Some things that have surprized me personally as I have seen very well titled dogs throwing these: dog to dog aggression, bite occlusion issues, eye issues, lack of natural pointing instict though very birdy,trainable and ultimately titled, reduction in retrieving desire, not so straight front legs, tendancy to throw some pups with kinked tails, Tri-color pups in lines occasionally. You have probably seen lines with all of these on here with brags. I had no idea when I got started. I very easily could have bought from lines with the tri-color. Some folks don't mind that and the dogs are great hunters. Maybe the occasional tri pup is fine with you cause most everything else is near perfect. Maybe you don't want to breed for retrieving desire cause you FF all your dogs and don't care. (which I will try not to digress on!) Point is IF it bothers you, you may be out of luck if you don't do your homework as most people won't tell a "newbie" even like myself. I am not trashing the lines or the dogs. They are from awesome lines. LOVE many traits about these lines. I am just saying you need to do your research LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO DO :wink: and find out what you are getting into the best you can. Balance and focus.
Did you list out your favorite traits yet? I kinda skimmed I admit :oops:
They may not all be stuff your girl has, but you want.
If you do I can maybe give you a little advise for each of the trait(s)
Does your girl have a specific trait you do not like? If so it would be good to at least make sure your male choice does not carry this. And rather strongly throws against it even.

Tentatively I would tell you to look at Shooter's Shortairs and linebreed on Trekker and Mr. Manly. Trekker's get seem to be dogs I personally like very much. Also Hustler has some strong great attributes.
Edit, link added: http://www.shootersshorthairs.com/
I am in very close contact with Shooter's so they are on my short list and I hold them in the highest regard. Thanks! I will take advice on my dogs anytime I can get it. You can ask Lisa at shooters. I have a shooter pup (now 5 months old) and almost weekly I email stack pics and such for input on how she is developing. I only want to make sure I breed a dog who has the best qualities. Or at least what most would consider to be best qualities. Thanks for staying on subject and recommending a breeder! I apprecaite that!
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by chicago0517 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:08 pm

MOOSE wrote: 2. At least NA if not higher in NAVHDA, and or JH/SH

I don't think you're setting a terribly high water mark for yourself right here as far as testing goes.

I'd also put a dog that hunts real birds on your list.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:53 pm

chicago0517 wrote:
MOOSE wrote: 2. At least NA if not higher in NAVHDA, and or JH/SH

I don't think you're setting a terribly high water mark for yourself right here as far as testing goes.

I'd also put a dog that hunts real birds on your list.
I am sorry if that wasn't a given. No kidding a dog should be able to hunt real birds. :roll:
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:45 pm

Sharp mountain recently had a litter from their female Mika to one of shooter's males. They litter is doing well in many vebues and male are maturing up nicely. feel free to PM for details on what I am seeing. Also Josh, is a nice boy : CH crystal's up close N' personal MH, the sire of my male. Temperment is absolutely THE BEST and would just strengthen what you've got there. I here pretty frequently about possible repeat breeding due to the outstanding temperment and it is one of things I value highly in my own male. He is driven but can stand next to another unnuetered male or female at a show and behave! He is the best most tolerant house dog and was an easy to have indoors puppy. Calm when inside but very birdy.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:11 am

MOOSE wrote:2.At least NA if not higher in NAVHDA, and or JH/SH
Beth, first off I commend you for doing your homework and putting yourself out here for suggestions and criticism. Secondly how old is the female (I may have missed it through all the postings)? Remember a NA NAVHDA title is only good for dogs under a certain age (I think 18-24 months).

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by wems2371 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:14 am

NA dogs can't be over 16 months to recieve a prize. You can run them for evaluation, after that age, but no prize will be given. Denise

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:50 am

I think a lot of what you're hearing is people uncomfortable with people advising you where to go without having had an opportunity to know what you have from a performance perspective. Anything right now is, IMHO, an "appeal to pedigree" which is, also IMHO, not a good idea.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:08 pm

Even though she is 3 I am going to run her in NA for the evaluation from the NAVDHA people. She has a very long story behind her and I don't want to push her to go for more than that at this time. And it will give me a good building block to work from with her. For her to come to us last February scared to even set foot in a house to being able to get a good evaluation at a NA test would be a HUGE accomplishment and will show me her desire to please her owner along with her trainability. We will continue to train from there and hopefully run a UT in the future. I know many a young dog who wouldn't even pass an NA test so I want to know how she stacks up with that. I personaly feel an NA test shows a lot more about a dog than the JH test. Thus I would rather run her NA and not actualy recieve a prize but get good feedback to work from than have her hold a JH title.

I do appreciate all your questions but from what I have already wrote it is obviouse I am going to prove she is worthy of breeding before it is done. So I want to start my search now for an appropriate stud dog.
Beth
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by SD Pheasant Slayer » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:42 pm

Moose - I commend you for your patience in dealing with some of the comments directed at you in this thread. I wish you the very best of luck in whatever decisions you make down the road with your dog(s).

To some of the others on this thread: You guys are absolutely brutal. Moose came on here seeking help for a stud dog. Maybe the question was a little broad, that doesn't open the door to criticism right away. If you have a problem with the question being too broad then don't contribute anything, or ask some questions to narrow things down. I'm so sick of reading threads like this where someone is genuinely trying to do right by her dog and the breed in general and is just getting torn apart by the "pro's" at breeding. Everyone recognizes the issues with poor planning in terms of breeding, but that doesn't mean we can assume every breeding that comes up is a poor one. Ask anyone that breeds for a living and I'd bet they'd tell you that their first litter started the same way - with a dog they thought had the qualities worthing of being bred and by soliciting help from others that knew what they were doing. How else would you have a person get started? Give credit that Moose took the time to consider asking for help and recognizes that maybe the dog won't turn out being worthy of being bred. NOBODY is born an expert and NOBODY breeds perfect litters everytime. Moose is trying to do what's possible to prevent a poor breeding and you guys are like lions tearing apart a gazelle. Let's all keep in mind why this board is so enjoyable - because it's a place where a person can come to get help and have a pleasant discussion of dogs. If you don't want to contribute politely, then find a different board.
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by ohiogsp » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:36 pm

Moose, your dog is a distant relative to my dog B.A. Have we talked about this before? My dog goes back to the Harrison's also. Where did you get yours?
<table width="300" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4"><tr><td width="75"><a href="http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview ... =184"><img border="0" src="http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/picture ... /td><td><a href="http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview ... 184">DIXIE HIGHWAY'S BOOZE RUNNER JH
<a href="http://www.perfectpedigrees.com"><font size="2">Get your free pedigree!</font></a></td></tr></table>

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:53 pm

OhioGSP I sent you a PM as well. But no we have not discussed this dog before.

I am going to pretty much stop posting on this thread unless there are new questions that one wants to ask of me which is fine. But I have said all I have to say of what I am going to do to prove this female and what I am looking for bloodline wise with a mate for her in the future.

Thanks to you who have PM'd me and asked me more detailed information. I am always open to sharing but also don't feel like getting into the whole story of this female on the public message board. I have stated what I feel at this point she lacks and what she has to offer. This may change in the future as well and if so the stud dog search may change with that.

Thanks guys!
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:05 am

Greg Jennings wrote:I think a lot of what you're hearing is people uncomfortable with people advising you where to go without having had an opportunity to know what you have from a performance perspective. Anything right now is, IMHO, an "appeal to pedigree" which is, also IMHO, not a good idea.
They are only hearing what the want to hear. :(

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:07 am

scotly50 wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:I think a lot of what you're hearing is people uncomfortable with people advising you where to go without having had an opportunity to know what you have from a performance perspective. Anything right now is, IMHO, an "appeal to pedigree" which is, also IMHO, not a good idea.
They are only hearing what the want to hear. :(
You're welcome to your opinion.

In case anyone misunderstood, let me stick my neck out further:

For any dog of any sporting breed, having an intimate knowledge of a dog's strengths and weaknesses, in the performance of its intended purpose in the field, is the sine qua non for breeding the dog.

That might torque off some of the show-oriented folks, but that's my opinion.

scotly50

Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:50 am

Greg Jennings wrote:
scotly50 wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:I think a lot of what you're hearing is people uncomfortable with people advising you where to go without having had an opportunity to know what you have from a performance perspective. Anything right now is, IMHO, an "appeal to pedigree" which is, also IMHO, not a good idea.
But an "Appeal to Pedigree" is exactly what Moose is looking for in his original post.

He, too me, is looking for a dog that looks well on paper. He is asking for advice for a stud for his female without any knowledge of what traits his female has that he wants to see carried on, or weakness he would like to see diminished. How else can that be taken?

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:13 am

scotly50 wrote:But an "Appeal to Pedigree" is exactly what Moose is looking for in his original post.

He, too me, is looking for a dog that looks well on paper. He is asking for advice for a stud for his female without any knowledge of what traits his female has that he wants to see carried on, or weakness he would like to see diminished. How else can that be taken?
*She* probably doesn't like being focused on here. 8)

I think the original post is pretty understandable: "Is there anything that leaps off this paper that is a known good breeding?" I just jumped past that question and probably should not have.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by mountaindogs » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:36 am

I think you all misunderstood. When you buy a puppy that you might want to breed, you have hopes and dreams about who might make a good match. You look around and just make little mental lists and watch other dogs' progress through the field events and such and see how they do. You ask about certain dogs from those who have seen them perform in more trials and events than yourself. BUT if you are not familiar with every dog out there, reccomendations are nice to look into. They are not set definate breeding plans, just suggestions of dogs that your peers have been impressed with. That way you can kinda get different opinions and make sure to note them if you see tham at an event. I could list several dogs that I and others are impressed with regarless of pedigree. I think the pedigeree was just posted to help narrow the reccomendations. That was my impression. No one can make a descision based on the information provided, but I guess it's like searching for the right vet school or something. You've got to start somewhere and other people may know alot more about the details than you do. There are thousands of them and you have to narrow the search to what you are looking for. If you want to study say cardiology, then other vets may know what schools have specialists they feel are very helpful in those fields, and may reccomend that, but they don't know what location, price range, or time schedule, you are looking at. They can still reccomend it without expecting the potential student to jump right into that school. They know this is a big descision and they will do their homework so to speak about the details, but give a little guidance.

That is the impression I got anyway.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:57 am

Once again what I was wanting is a stud dog with heave hustler breeding at this point as I know this will compliment her from what I have seen of the few dogs I do know.

But I only know a handful of breeders who have the hustler line up close so wanted to make sure I didn't miss another one out there that I didn't know about.

By asking my dogs strengths and weaknesses you are just watching out for the future of the breed. But now that I have answered that question it would be nice to get back on track.

I am not oposed to an outcross but from everything I have done on researching genetics there is more of an emphaisis on linebreeding being the way to go if you want to produce consistenty and also the only way to really achieve the closest thing to the ideal shorthair.

Now I am not going to get in the discussion of what the ideal shorthairs is or looks like.

Just some insight as to the reasoning behind what I am looking for.

Once again I thank those who have been supportive of my search.
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:31 pm

Perhaps you should call Dave Hill and ask him if he thinks line breeding on Hustler is a good idea.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by lvrgsp » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:40 pm

I'm gonna guess that's a big fat NO Greg?......Just a thought, Just a thought. :D :D

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scotly50

Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:53 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I think you all misunderstood. When you buy a puppy that you might want to breed, you have hopes and dreams about who might make a good match. You look around and just make little mental lists and watch other dogs' progress through the field events and such and see how they do. You ask about certain dogs from those who have seen them perform in more trials and events than yourself. BUT if you are not familiar with every dog out there, reccomendations are nice to look into. They are not set definate breeding plans, just suggestions of dogs that your peers have been impressed with. That way you can kinda get different opinions and make sure to note them if you see tham at an event. I could list several dogs that I and others are impressed with regarless of pedigree. I think the pedigeree was just posted to help narrow the reccomendations. That was my impression. No one can make a descision based on the information provided, but I guess it's like searching for the right vet school or something. You've got to start somewhere and other people may know alot more about the details than you do. There are thousands of them and you have to narrow the search to what you are looking for. If you want to study say cardiology, then other vets may know what schools have specialists they feel are very helpful in those fields, and may reccomend that, but they don't know what location, price range, or time schedule, you are looking at. They can still reccomend it without expecting the potential student to jump right into that school. They know this is a big descision and they will do their homework so to speak about the details, but give a little guidance.

That is the impression I got anyway.
First if I were to, (and I don't), "buy a puppy that I might want to breed" I would, in fact, be pedigree buying. Because I cannot tell anything about the characteristics of the dog until it gets older and then I am able to tell if she possesses traits I would like to carry on. There is no way I can make that decision intelligently when the dog is a pup.

If I were to blindly seek a stud dog, I would ask for a stud possessing certain traits I am looking for rather than just seeking "the name stud" of the month.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:56 pm

If you look at the pedigree it isn't a very strong line breeding at all! Hustler is so far back in her lines. Not like I would be taking a hustler daughter and breeding her to a hustler son for goodness sake.

I said I would like to bring some hustler back to the front of the pedigree.

If you actualy look at the pedigree you would know that it wouldn't be a heavy line bred hustler breeding.
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by wems2371 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:08 pm

If I were at this point, with a whole lot of future time to think about it, I would be taking the wide approach and asking what studs or breeders with Hustler lines--you all think are the best. I think maybe that's what Moose is trying to do, but I don't want to speak out of line on that. She has plenty of time to narrow it down and make her own opinions.....cause frankly, like everything else here :roll: , the readership might not even come close in agreeing on the individual dogs. I don't think this is an attempt to get the stud of the month, but rather to compile a list of dogs for future reference--and to follow them, there offspring, and their kennels as a whole. Seems like excellent sense to me. Denise

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by lvrgsp » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:13 pm

Fritz...............The dogs performed, he's won everything. Looks like he's gonna be a good producer, and while were on the subject of pedigrees and there preference in breeding vs. performance and production,(sorry another thread) heck here is a dog that qualifies. And to boot it does'nt bother me that he does not run the hour horseback stakes, trialers.... You want an option, theres one for ya.He's got a nice mix of Huslter thrown in with some other good producers.
This is of course just my opinion,

Chip

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:21 pm

Fritz is a nice dog. Would suggest giving Rick a call and talking about what is wanted. Would suggest calling Dohse about his performance in the hour SD stakes (I've got a good idea that he'll tell you Fritz has more than enough of everything).

But, I don't think it would help "pull Hustler to the front", even if I agreed with that as a goal.

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:25 pm

It sounds like most of you disagree with pulling Hustler to the front. So inform me as to why?

I have had a few PM's mentioning some thing to look for with hustler bred dogs but want some other input as well. Like I said to that person a pretty picture doesn't always make the dog. So enlighten me. This is the whole point to this post.

Just because I wanted to pull Hustler to the front at the very begining doesn't mean I will stick to that.

Thanks!
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by bruns333 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:14 pm

Beth, I wouldn't worry too much about "looking out for Hustler dogs". They have and continue to prove themselves in a many types of events. See how many NAVHDA VC's don't have some Hustler behind them? There are some really good kennels out there having good success with Hustler bred dogs. I am sure there are some terrible stories about them out there, as well as a ton of people that have tham and have seen Hustler dogs run. I don't know how many times he was bred, but it seems like 50% of the litters I see advertised have him 3 to 5 generations back. He produced nice DC type dogs and those DC's have continued to produce. I would guess the FT crowd would not be into the Hustler line as they probably consider them too slow and methodical. For the weekend hunter like most of us, they are plenty of dog and easy to train. JMHO

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by lvrgsp » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:54 pm

Ok I'll bite here. Just keep in mind I am not a real Hustler afficianado', I have seen a few Hustler bred dogs, never saw him personally.
Now having Hustler 2 or 3 times in a 5 gen ped to me is not linebred. SOMETIMES tightly linebred Hustler had a tendancy to throw bad bites, soft dogs, and lack of intensity on game, correct me here if I am wrong Hustler folks, that's the way I know it.

Now in saying that I've known Hustler to throw birddogs with excellent noses. Good friend of mine had a litter out of his Kurzhaars Ruger v Haven son bred back to a Hustler bred bitch. Good little birddogs, typical Hustler heads, decent noses, hit the field and it was like watching paint dry. I think two of the dogs out of a litter of 10 were pretty quick and snappy, all had decent noses and could find birds, all retrieved well as best I can remember him telling me. He got one back from a guy he sold it to, called me up to help him out trying to get the dog from being timid. We showed it a pigeon in hand no wings flopping, just very little interest, very soft dog, the litter in my mind was very inconsistant. Other Hustler dogs I have seen are fireballs, and helacious birddogs, one I know is a NBDCA national CH. tough tough birddog, he can find a "bleep" bird in a parking lot. Seems to me Hustler produced better when not tightly linebred, there are always exceptions, I know that.
Others have had great success with Hustler bred to Evolution, or Wildburg, or Old Man Slick , and Handleburg stuff, and there are others.
Just how I see it

Just My Observations,
Chip

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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Just wanted to update the post with a few pictures. They are not the greatest and for the first time being stacked and in a show ring and being 3 years old I think she looked pretty good. Also here are some fun shots of her in the summer. I know many of you are not show people but I think it helps to show her structure. Hopefully this helps with getting some opinions on what to improve on etc.

Image

Thise second one she is a bit too far under herself with the back legs but this was just practice for before we went in the ring.

Image

Fun Pics:

Image

Image
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by pear » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:29 pm

Hey she's a looker.... If you get tired of her she can live here..."pear"
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by Sharon » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:47 pm

Very Interesting markings . In Canada ,the liver color doesn't do well in the show ring. What about where you are?
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Re: Stud Dog Options

Post by MOOSE » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:18 am

This is just my decision personaly. I will not show with the AKC until they allow black for the GSP in the show ring. So we are only showing with the UKC. That being said I do expect it to be a little more tough to get her CH because of her color. But I know we can do it. I also am showing our black GSP with the UKC and expect the same struggle. But at least in another month my black GSP will be old enough to compete in the regular show and even if it is just the two dogs competing they will then have competition to get those competition points towards their championship. Not really the way I want it but hey they are getting out there and being seen and doing well. I also know they both diserve a CH title for conformation.

In another couple years we will also take them to have their International inspection done to get CH there as well.

So yeah I have been told unless you have a dog with a solid liver head, ticked body and the liver patch at the tail you are going to have to work hard to get your CH. Which I am ok with!

Just for kicks here is our 5 month old black female at the show yesterday. She was in the fun puppy class and it didn't count toward anything! Other than fun and exposure. Wich we had a blast and she did great!

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