Stud Dog Options

[snips]

OK, I am home from the hunt test and will throw my 2$ in. Oh, Chip already said it:) Chip you pretty much nailed the traits of Hustler stuff. I think what makes it good is what It is crossed with. I owned a son (a darn good one if I say so myself) but he was part Wildburg. Which, I think offset the traits Chip mentioned. Evolution is also great crossed there. I bred to several of the Hustler Duals and found the offspring to be very inconsistant in size and run, but loaded up with natural ability, trainability, ect. And, yes, there can be an occasional off bite. There are traits, as in any line you want to breed out, and traits you want to breed ON. Fritz has a very good influx of Hustler behind him, but blended with the Bioers Evolution x Aces Prima Banane stuff. Plus some Grief. He is not tightly bred Hustler. He IS throwing some very performance capable dogs. And Chip, we would be insulted if you were down here and did not stop in...

[bruns333]

Brenda and Chip,

Doesn't Hustler have alot of Wildburg stuff behind him already? I just see that Hustler stuff has been bred so much that we know more about his potency. I would guess if they are/were any males that show up as much as Hustler does we would have a better idea what those males produced as well, and maybe there are males that I am not aware of that have been bred and then bred upon as much as Hustler. Just seems like maybe he gets too much credit for the good and bad that came out of those breedings. It seems like alot of folks agree that Hustler dogs are easier to train, but were all the pups that way or just the good ones that went on to be bred?

I am really getting into pedigree stuff and I am jut asking questions to learn what I can. Any thoughts?

Matt

[bruns333]

I think Hustler had an IOC of around 2% which may help understand why the inconsistency. Wendy Enzstrand on the other hand was around 10% any didn't that combo produce at least 2 DC's?

[bruns333]

Beth as far as her pedigree, if I were you I would look back behind the dogs that you don't know or recognize and try to find out were they come from. What if one more generation back they were all bred to Hustler? Just see if there is any duplicated dogs or lines. I think from a breeding standpoint it helps to get a 10 generation inbreeding coefficient done and see what was really back there and it might help you see where to go. Besides that look at her weak points (build and brain) and try to improve upon them.
Matt

[Greg Jennings]

Matt,

You might want to check out the pedigrees under http://www.walnuthillgsps.us/important.htm , especially Gretta's Garbo Gamble and Snip's Ticked Off and give Rick and Brenda a call.

[MOOSE]

How do I get a 10 generation inbreeding coefficient done?

[Greg Jennings]

How do I get a 10 generation inbreeding coefficient done?

The first thing is to get a 10 generation pedigree that is complete and known to be 100% accurate. That can be difficult to accomplish.

[bruns333]

Greg is right! Make sure you check as many sources as you can to get that many generations. I use this as a decent source, but there are plenty of mistakes on it. http://www.gspdog.net/pedigree/breeding ... db=gsp.dbw. Check with Abbe Lane folks to help you get that part of the pedigree filled in. some breeders have nice computer programs that will get a 10 generation inbreeding coefficient. I know two of the top of my head. Kitty Keiner at kmk shorthairs and Donnie Ebersole at Freidelsheim. I used Kitty for my last breeding. I think Bruce knows how to do this as well.

Matt

[lvrgsp]

Matt,
I don't really know Hustlers pedigree all that well. I know there's some wildburg in there through Kay I believe. heck I think he has some Bossman in there somewhere, I recall someone telling me once, who knows more about Hustler and saw him, that there opinion was Erick V Enzstrand was a big influence in what made Hustler, who really knows unless you had both the dogs and were able to evaluate them, and what they produced in there offspring. I sure don't want there to be any misconception here that I think Hustler in your dogs is bad, actually quite the opposite, as a balanced breeding with Hustler proved to work very well, as stated above from Brenda, I think some dogs could have a little more Hustler bred into em to bring that birddog out, just my opinion.
I think where the problem lies or lyed, was when you tightly linebredbred Hustler, or incorrectly linebred Hustler for the purpose of the name.
I have no idea how many times Hustler was bred, but there have been many great sires bred upon and linebred, I am sure as much if not more than Hustler, that's a whole other thread really. As far as Wendy and her COI, I have no idea really, she was a producer though, and if you look I think she had some Essers Chick and Wildburg in there, that was a combo that worked more than once. And I believe she and Hustler produced 2 DC's in Erick and Baroque I never owned a Hustler dog, but I did own a double bred Essers Chick g-son, solid liver and a very natural birddog. He did not have the best nose, but he found and stood his birds well, hated backing with a passion, would'nt rip a bird, but refused to back, and would retrieve a mack truck if I asked him to, now in saying that he was the hard headest sum bitch I've ever owned, very independant thinker, and we could not keep him broke, we being Jim Batson and myself, that was his demise in trials just would not back and stay broke. Probably could have bred him to a Hustler Bitch and maybe that would have worked, that was the balance I would have had to go with, as looking back thats one of the nicks that seemed to work, along with the Beiers, and some Hege-Haus.
There others on here much more knowledgeable on the Hustler breedings than I. Brenda's the one you can learn alot from, Rip was a multi nstra CH. and one of if not the last living sons of Hustler. I know Bob Grove has had his hands on alot of Hustler dogs, give him a call,let him tell you stories about Stradivarius Maximillien, pretty interesting stuff. TO ME, the thing Hustler brought was biddability and birddog, something some of our dogs may need to go back to.
Just my Ramblings,

Chip

Chip

[Greg Jennings]

I did some poking around before my initial reply.

You can find some of the pedigree on this page http://www.abbelanekennels.com/ by going to dog "Tafton" that is for sale and following the "Click Here For More Info" link. For the rest in that branch you'll have call the Abbe Lane folks. Part of that will cross back into Brenda's breeding.

Some more is here: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:xy4 ... cd=1&gl=us .

Monkeyshine's M GO BLUE is Rusty x Gretchen's Pride. Gretchen's Pride is Dude x Wyoming's Gretchen. I'd email some folks about it from there.

For the Top Gun, call Steve Ries.

Some more bits here: http://www.shootersshorthairs.com/pedigrees/rudyped.htm . Trekker info there as well. Brenda bred to him once. You might talk to her about that as well.

[Dave Quindt]

Greg wrote:

For the Top Gun, call Steve Ries.

I'm pretty certain the "Top Gun" dog in the pedigree is NOT one of Steve's dogs; don't believe he was breeding dogs in '88.

I wonder if Dave & Jan needed a 10 generation pedigree and a COI calculation to come up with the breeding that produced Hustler?

[MOOSE]

Thanks everyone for your help in helping me find my 10 gen pedigree. I may enlist you all to help me with the other two female dogs I have as well.

I will see what I can come up with! It should be fun!

[bruns333]

Wendy was a DC Esser's Duke vd Wildburg and Jutta Bugelhof pup. Is Axel von Wasserschling considered Wildburg lines or Esser line or something else? I know alot of american bred shortairs go back to him. I wonder what sort of IC DC Stradivarius Baroque a Hustler/Wendy son would have. There must some sort of science with getting genes from one generation to the next?

[Greg Jennings]

Greg wrote:

For the Top Gun, call Steve Ries.

I'm pretty certain the "Top Gun" dog in the pedigree is NOT one of Steve's dogs; don't believe he was breeding dogs in '88.

That's probably why I couldn't find anything....

I wonder if Dave & Jan needed a 10 generation pedigree and a COI calculation to come up with the breeding that produced Hustler?

You know how I feel about this. Would be much better off looking for a great down with the right matchup. I'm just providing information.

[Greg Jennings]

There must some sort of science with getting genes from one generation to the next?

There is for eye color and simple things. There isn't for complicated things like "bird dog". It's pretty much totally empirical. That's the problem with "paper".

[lvrgsp]

Matt,
Axel was owned by the Wasserschling kennel, not even sure he was a line, they bred to Axel for what he produced. No idea what Baroque's IC is, who cares it's what he produced, take this with a grain of salt here, COI's are only as good as the dog flesh they produce period. A Hustler bred stud with a COI of 20% may produce timid, butt bite dogs with no drive. a 10% Hustler son may be the better producer, unless you know for sure what dog in the ped is prepotent and is capable of reproducing itself, and you know the traits he/she passes on and there of quality traits, than COI does not do much for ya, now an individual who has linebred on a particular dog to many different bitches and knows the traits has had there hands on em then the COI may become a valueable tool, and then again it may not be necessary to linebreed that tight. Very few 10 gen pedigrees are gonna be genetically correct, it's just the nature of the beast, unless you have DNA on them all, even then you need to know who carries or throws what traits, and for that I would not go past a 4 or 5 gen COI. You really need to get your hands on the dogs to evaluate them or talk to multiple people who have had there hands on them, or owned them, or watched them. As Dave eluded to earlier I am sure the Hills did not run a 10 gen COI to produce Hustler, go watch a dog a learn what his/ her traits are if you like everything, linebreed on that dog or find someone who has done it, see what it produces, if you like it then worry about the COI, don't buy a dog on COI, buy a dog for what it is, remember were talking birddogs here.
Just some thoughts,
Chip

[MOOSE]

I found all the dogs I need to make her full 10 generation except:

Keefer Der Fallschirmjager MH
In Due Time Rusty
Katrina V Geulkerhaus
Direct's Broadway Revue
Kaos Will
Ruthie II
Pepper Mein Liebe
Schnapps Sueweine Von Baker
Calahans North Wind
Jims Jagende Herzogin
CH Brookstone's Dot's Incredible JH
Shooting Starr's Wind Walker MH
Bavern's Ursa Major
Abbe Lane Loki N Lace
FC/AFC Sunshine's Abigail

[Dave Quindt]

There must some sort of science with getting genes from one generation to the next?

There is, but we don't understand it yet. Not only do we "don't know what we don't know", we "don't know as much as we think we know". This is the crux of my arguement through this entire thread.

We don't have DNA-verified 10 generation pedigrees, so until we do the COI % is somewhere's between flawed and meaningless. No one has ANY idea if the pedigree actually matches up with the dogs that actually produced the dogs in question.

We don't have ANY scientific idea on how complex traits are inherited; things like hunt, point, drive, conformation, independence, temperament. NO IDEA! We struggle to find markers for single genes; we have no clue on anything more advanced.

We have NO IDEA on how sex-linked genes, or multi-generational inheritance patterns play a role. NO IDEA!

And for all of you linebreeding/COI/pedigree experts out there, how does one linebreed successfully across multiple generations and avoid inbreeding depression when inbreeding depression starts to show up around the same time that COI % gets high enough to give you all the supposed "consistency" that you desire?

The amount of unproven, home-cooked theories and ideas that get passed around here as "fact" is mind boggling.

[adogslife]

very good post.

[bruns333]

Dave, what sort of IC are you talking about with consistency/depression?

Chip, I can't get my hands on Baroque, and what he has produced gets watered down for every generation. I think you guys are making great sense. In the absence of "hands on the dog" paper and word of mouth(message board) is my next option.

[lvrgsp]

Very good Matt, You answered your own question when you said " I can't get my hands on Baroque and what he produced gets watered down every generation" Bingo, that's the way it works. find some linebreeding on him, find some sons of his that are good producers. Was he himself a good producer, if you never saw him, why do you like him? Is it the Hustler x Wendy Cross? Ask yourself these questions, I love studying pedigrees, love to look at em, love everything about them, they do not replace seeing the dog in person, pick a dog alive today that you like for some reason, and go watch him for a few days, spend some time with a trainer, thats where your gonna get hands on. Either throught the trainer telling you or you visually watching in yourself.

Moose,
We kind of went astray from your original post, at looking at your pedigree and never seeing your dog, I would say I would'nt worry to much about linebreding on Hustler, as you said, to me there's not a ton of it there. I gave you my reccomendation, to Fritz, but I would definately talk to Rick about it, it may not be a good match, anyways I hope you research what you want and find it.

Chip

[Greg Jennings]

I like Fritz too, but I'm biased (see dog in signature).

[MOOSE]

I don't mind at all that we have gone astray from the original question as this is all good info we are discussing! I am learning in the process as well. Right now I am looking at 3 different dogs. Two are pretty solid Hustler bred and one I don't see any hustler at all and that dog is no real relation to mine except for back in like the 5th gen. of each pedigree but man do I like that dog!

So now with this female I am trying to narrow down what our goal for this litter will be. Things such as small as color even.

The one male I am looking at is solid liver

The other is the white base with ticking and patches

The other is colored just like this female. HUGE saddle that covers the entire body and then legs and chest are white

All would add nice chest depth as I don't feel hers is as deep as I would prefer it to be. All are conformationaly correct. One has a CH title along with hunting titles, one had show points but has his SH title, the other the person doesn't worry much about the show ring and the dog has SH title. All have health clearences done. Two OFA Hips excellent one is OFA good.

So they are all on a very even playing field as far as credentials go. The two are local enough that I could take a day to go meet the dogs and hunt over them and see them work along with meet other dogs from their offspring. The other dog is a bit further away but know that it would be a solid breeding even if I didn't meet the particular dog. Stud fees are all about the same. Within $100 of eachother give or take.

I will try to get the owners permission to post pics of the three I am looking at for some opinions on what you all think the cross' would produce and how they would compliment eachother.

[Fieldmaster]

I may have missed it in your posts but What are you looking to produce out of this litter ? Competitive Dogs / Hunt Tests / Conformation / Family Companion Gundogs ? This will help us a bit with knowing your goals for this litter. There are some studs that are more prone to producing certain traits in their off spring that you may or may not be looking for.

Robert

[MOOSE]

I am looking to produce dogs that will hunt first and foremost. I want them to be versatile hunters and do well in things like NAVDHA. I also am looking to produce pups that will in time do well in the show ring. I expect all the pups to be family pets as well.

[Greg Jennings]

All would add nice chest depth

So you've seen pups that they throw and they put that stamp on the pups?

[MOOSE]

On two of them yes I have seen that first hand. The other person whom knows this is something that I want to add would not lead me astray if the stud dog I was looking at of their wouldn't or hasn't done this in the past.

[Fieldmaster]

On two of them yes I have seen that first hand. The other person whom knows this is something that I want to add would not lead me astray if the stud dog I was looking at of their wouldn't or hasn't done this in the past.

Keep in mind also , you have to have an idea on the bitch that these pups were out of and what she has produced. She may have had the influence on the things you were hoping that the Stud would cover. You probably won't get an idea on your bitch as to what she truely needs as a producer until you see what she produces herself.


Robert

[MOOSE]

I realize that the stud dog isn't the full equation. But the one stud dog I have seen many a pup from him. I actualy own a pup buy him myself. And in this instance I know what the dam was like first hand as I got to meet her etc. The entire litter that my girl was from took after their sire. In this instance I don't see much but the black color as being contributing from the dam. Just from this litters observation.

[MOOSE]

Here are pictures of two of the stud dogs I am looking at. First is Rudy from Shooter's Shorthairs. Here is a link to their website and a link to his pedigree:

http://www.shootersshorthairs.com/index.htm

http://www.shootersshorthairs.com/pedigrees/rudyped.htm

Here are his pictures:









The next one is Cody from Brenda's kennel and a link to his page with pedigree and right now the only picture I have:

http://www.walnuthillgsps.us/stud_dogs/cody.htm

Once again here is Roxi's pedigree for refrence:

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1123

I am still waiting for permission from the other stud dog owner to post about their dog.

[MOOSE]

No takers on input on these two guys?

[snips]

Cody is very stacked up on Wasserschling and Shinback. He has some very good old stuff behind him and IMO looks very much like Axel. He is very stylish with a top notch nose. He is a very nice boy. I bred many of the dogs behind him and know much about them, Cajun was as awsome a liver dog as you will see, he was a Show Ch/NSTRA Ch and Snips Serenade of Snow would have Dualed if they tried, very nice bitch. My Gidget was an awsome liver, the dam of Higgins and many other field/show type dogs. Just a little info....

[bruns333]

Beth I think both are nice boys. I talked to Brenda and Lisa about both of those boys as potential studs. IMO Cody has a better pedigree. If you talk to Brenda and Lisa and tell them what you want and what you have, you might get a good sense which way suits yor female better.

[MOOSE]

Thanks Matt. I am in conversation with both people quite a bit. The nice thing with Lisa is that she is very local so I can go to her house if I wanted type of thing. I know that doesn't make or break a dog but it does help sometimes. This is a decision we are hoping to make in the next few months and then the breeding hopefully will happen in fall of 2009 if all the things I want to have happen with the female take place!

Both are very nice boys indeed!

[MOOSE]

Well after much debating and discussing we have decided IF this litter happens next fall/winter it will be Rudy we use. Roxi will be taking her first step soon with becoming certified as a Therapy Dog to help demonstrate to the public what a wonderful temperment she has. She is also on her way toward her show title and has 25 points. Still need another 75 and some competition wins but this is going to be something she should achieve with in the next 6-8 months along with running in hunt tests of some sort. What hunt test we will be shooting for is still open to decision but there will be one at least!

I will keep you all up to date on this fine girls progress with pictures as well!