GSP Producers??

[sweetsong]

It was mentioned in another post that when looking a possible stud one should look for proven producers. Who are the proven producers for the GSP's both presently and in the past?

Thanks
Terry

[snips]

That is a REAL broad question. There are all kinds of producers in all different venues.

[h.q.s]

Prince's Snake Eyed Romeo

He is a present producer.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Terry~If you're looking for a FT bred stud that would get you some more range and bottom, that I know you are looking for, I would go with Showtimes Rollin Thunder. I think that the Clown/PJ Wildfire would be a nice cross.

Rick throws A LOT of point, some of his pups are All Age FC's, hour winners, etc. Not a lot of his pups are trialed in HB/Walking trials, but the ones that are do very well.

His pups do very well in NSTRA too.

He has a very mild mannered temperment, lives inside, sleeps on the bed (always has). VERY NICE dog that has thrown some very nice pups, pretty much no matter whom he is bred too. Plus he's only 4 or 5 hrs away from you.

PM or call me if you want more info.

Doug

[Ruffshooter]

Ricky Ticky, What is bottom?
Thanks,
\Rick

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Ruffshooter~Bottom is basically power and stamina. The dogs that have it have an effortless gait. It is also the ability to keep the pedal to the metal for a long time. 1 hr plus at full speed. It's kinda something that you have to see to understand completely.

Some of the guys and gals that have been trialing for longer than I have can probably explain it better.

Doug

[Hotpepper]

The top producer over the past 5-8 years would probably be FC GK's Ramblin Danny. No longer making puppies but he has put a lot of winners out there.

Mike Woody's line out of Magnum or Mark Wasserman's Ace dog would be right in there as well.

Pepper

[Dirtysteve]

Proven producers of what? FC's, Hunt tests, NSTRA, NAVHDA, Show rings, etc..........
If your are more specifc maybe you'll get more responses

[Joe Amatulli]

The all time producers are I beleive in this order are KJ's Hightailing Saddle he was bread some 55 times and produced 66 dogs with 610 AF wins, next I beleive is Dixeland Rusty I do not know how many times or number of wins, next is Checkmate's Dandy Dude with 34 dogs and 608 AF wins, next is most likely Windyhill Prince James with 61 dogs having 400 wins. Clown and PJ Wildfire I am sure is in that mix but I don't know thier records. On the female side first is Heide Ho Pinehurst with 16 dogs having 238 wins next is Wyoming's Gretchen with 7 dogs having 163 wins next is Ravenwood Starlight Express 5 dogs having 114 wins. I also beleive that Mocha Delight is in there someplace but don't know her record.

These are all AF stats and I do not know all of them, but this should give you a pretty good idea of who are the top all time producers of AF winners.

It is to early to tell who is the current top producer because many of the dogs are just too young, but Nuke, has produced the most futurity wins, but Ben, Sonny, Danny, and Moon I am sure are all in the mix.

[lvrgsp]

Joe, Is that a pretty current record for Saddle? Do you have all his AF record? Was he a 12 or 14 x ch. something like that anyway.

Thanks,
Chip

[Joe Amatulli]

Saddle had 19 placements in the AF. I probably be talking to Kevin tonight and I'll ask him, but that is about right, I am pretty sure he went over 10.

[Joe Amatulli]

No I do not have all the AF records only some of them and that is to date, also keep in mind that Saddle's pups are still out there and winning.

[lvrgsp]

Thanks Joe appreciate it.

Chip

[sweetsong]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies. I now agree the question is very broad and I am sorry for that. I know what the question I wanted to ask in my head but did not get it through to my fingers. Anyways, I was thinking on the lines of AKC field trials and American Field field trials.

Thanks again
Terry

[Dirtysteve]

Here's some good info for the last several years.
http://www.gspca.org/Awards/year-end/2007.html

[Yawallac]

next is Checkmate's Dandy Dude with 34 dogs and 608 AF wins...

I have Checkmate's Dandy Dude in my pup's 4th generation and I have a pup coming with Dude in the 3rd generation. Are there any GSP lines left with Dude up close??

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1146

[Sharon]

Wow!! I'm speechless.

[Yawallac]

I think 3rd generation is as close as you'll get.

I figured that. Are there any lines that line bred Dude? ...or did only Pointers line breed back then.

[Dave Quindt]

next is Checkmate's Dandy Dude with 34 dogs and 608 AF wins...

I have Checkmate's Dandy Dude in my pup's 4th generation and I have a pup coming with Dude in the 3rd generation. Are there any GSP lines left with Dude up close??

There's frozen semen on Checkmate's Whitesmoke available.

Doesn't matter though; you are chasing a ghost who now exists only in ink and no longer in any meaningful way in any line of GSPs. Your closest link to Dude in that pedigree is being boxed out by the linebreeding on the other dogs who are are very inconsistent with Dude, even though some of them go back to Dude himself.

We're better off focusing on finding the next "Dude" or "Rusty" instead of chasing the ghosts of dogs that were born during the Nixon administration.

There's some nice stuff in that pedigree Ross, but there are also some pretty big landmines. Hope you've done your research.

FWIW,
Dave

[Yawallac]

Dave,

You're the expert to be sure. My GSP knowledge was good during Watergate ...since then I've become a Pointer guy...

I'd love to hear about the landmines though. My pup will be out of frozen semen from Woodland's Lord Hanschen, a Ronlord Ruler son. I have had pups from Hans going back to the mid 80s. He has one straw left and I am getting a pup.

Talk to me.

EDIT: Received the PM. Thanks for the info.

[Dave Quindt]

I'm no expert; just been lucky enough to have spent some time with those that are, and have seen enough of those dogs in person to learn the things one can never see in a pedigree.

Regarding linebreeding Dude, the ole girl that's asleep in my bed has more than a healthy dose of Dude in her. When I was knocking around breeding her, I asked her breeder (who also broke her out for me) if there was enough Dude in her to linebreed on. I even mentioned the Whitesmoke stuff. I was told as plain as day; too far back, don't waste your time and focus on finding a great stud of today and not the dogs of old. Here's her pedigree; should speak for itself.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1001

[Joe Amatulli]

In the GSP world there are tons of land mines, when you go back that far odds are that the pedigree is not correct. And the fact of the matter, a number of the dogs that are out there today would blow them away. No one seems to know if Dude is even who they say he is and pups that he was cridited for are even out of him. Those old timers are simply not around any more and all we have today are just rumors! One thing I do know for sure is that it was not uncommon to wack tails back then.

[Yawallac]

I've heard the Pointer stories about Dude and believe it or not ...Pointer blood doesn't bother me.

The pup that I have coming is out of a HOF FC/AFC Hidden Hollow's Ronlord Ruler son (Styx). I saw Styx run a number of times back then. He was an awesome dog and his son Hans (Woodland's Lord Hanschen) was probably the nicest GSP I have ever seen work. He used to walked through the UT tests and Invitational (pre VC) and was the breed's first MH. His ground race was beautiful and if he had been in different hands could have been a fine horseback dog as well. He produced the first GSP to pass multiple VCs and I've had pups from Hans going back to the early 80s. This is his last straw.

As far as "old blood" is concerned, I am of the belief that the great ones would be great regardless of when they were born. Old time blood used properly has value IMO. I am producing winners with Pointers using frozen semen from some Pointer legends and will continue to do so as long as I can get it. Gene Casale called me on Tuesday evening and offered to sell me another direct daughter from Guard Rail. I was on his doorstep Wednesday morning!! My avatar pup has won everytime I have put him on the ground in Horseback, NBHA and even earned a 108 PII in NAVHDA. He is from my other Guard Rail daughter.

Just using the Pointer example to illustrate my point. Don't mean to turn the discussion.

[Joe Amatulli]

The pointer world is much cleaner, there was no reason to hide who that dog is out of, even if the dog is not out of that individual it was most likely real close, and line breeding works very well when you know axactly what you have. I beleive one of the reasons that the All Age is suffering in the GSP world is that most people do not know what they have and don't really know where to go, and in the past, to many people went to the pointer down the block and people that got those pups had no idea on where to go with that dog.

[lvrgsp]

Hmmmm. I am not sure we'll ever have another "Dude" or "Rusty", in my opinion they came along at the right time, when trialers were'nt oposed to breeding in to other trialers dogs. Just does not seem to happen like that anymore. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the sport of trialing was growing at a faster rate then, than what it is today, they were the right dogs at the right time.
Ross, I've seen a Whitesmoke son there breeding some on right now, just saw a few pups, there good looking little boogers. Don't think they have done any linebreeding on it yet, may not want to

Just my opinion,
Chip

[Yawallac]

The pointer world is much cleaner, there was no reason to hide who that dog is out of, even if the dog is not out of that individual it was most likely real close, and line breeding works very well when you know axactly what you have.

Believe me, the Pointer world has its share of "issues" too...

I certainly don't plan on becoming a GSP breeder, but I will always keep a few in our kennel because I love the breed. And I will try to keep the blood that I like as best I can.

[Fieldmaster]

2 x NFC / FC Sanjo Sin City Slicker

He was bred very little and produced Winners with just about every breeding .

Robert

[Yawallac]

He was bred very little and produced Winners with just about every breeding .

Robert,

Just curious, why would a 2xNFC that produces winners be bred very little??

[msrkennels]

Here's who I would breed to now If I had a very good bird dog bitch and wanted to a dd style and run Nuke is a good choice. If I wanted sensible dogs with high tails and good bird dogs that woukld make good SD and maybe AA a Sonny son also Vogelsang's Toby von blitz his pedigree has just about every dog joe named in it.I also saw a dog Rugerheim kennels runs out of Marshall that was a fine animal.

[Joe Amatulli]

Yes Slick and his prodigy have been great producers (20 dogs have 238 wins). From what Steiger has told me he was only bread some 5 or 6 times. One the the dogs he produced was Heide's Mighty Slicker, when Thompson won the Amateur at the All Breed it was one of the greatest prefomances I have ever seen, Bob's Slick produced Tarkas I beleive is the all time male championship winner and a litter mate of his produced Selina the all time championship winner (all dogs).

I do beleive that today too many people are stuck in thier own lines and don't go out enough. When I bread Selina to Saddle, although I had more than enough buyers I was surpriced of how low the interest was, at that time she had already won some 20 championships. I too often see dogs with major faws being bread and geuss what they have the same faws. You most breed to improve not stay the same.

[Joe Amatulli]

Just curious, why would a 2xNFC that produces winners be bred very little??

It's easy he was not the prettiest dog in the country and with him producing Bob's Slick, which would have lost to him in a beauty contest, and there was a question on who he really was.

MSR you are 100% correct you need to know what you have, what you are going to get and what do you want. Sometimes what you have just has too many reasons why you shouldn't, and to often you are going to the stud of the month for the WRONG reasons.

[Fieldmaster]

Yawallac,
Not real sure why he wasn't bred that much. He produced a wide spectrum of winners in both AKC (even a Dual Champion) and American Field. I just very few breedings. I know this much I would give anything to have frozen semen on him and be able to go back to him now. He sure was an Outstanding Producer.

It's easy he was not the prettiest dog in the country and with him producing Bob's Slick, which would have lost to him in a beauty contest, and there was a question on who he really was.

2 x NFC / FC Sanjo Sin City Slicker


Slick appeared far more typie than many of the other Top dogs mentioned in this thread

Curious was that (20 dogs with 238 wins) only an American Field stat?

Robert

[Joe Amatulli]

Those are AF only I do not know AKC stats.

[BigShooter]

You might be interested in checking out these past threads as well:


Who is the best GSP ever?
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... =69&t=7734


The Best Field Trial GSP in the country in 2007
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... =69&t=7784

Mark

[Joe Amatulli]

Big shooter those are good threads, but it's not that simple. There is no one out there that has seen all the dogs to make a fair comparison. We can look at stats and that maybe the easest way, but that does not tell you how those championships were won. We can talk about the best preformances we've seen, but again you would have needed to see all of them to compair. I will say that if I put all the best preformances I've seen and have herd of, you can only come up with a tie. Because keep in mind that you can not get better than perfect and a perfect preformance at it's simplest definition, assuming the dog has style, speed and all that other good stuff is, let them go find them standing to the front!!!!!!!!!!! You can not beat that because it happens so few times.

[Dave Quindt]

I guess I define "proven producer" differently than most here.

To me, a proven producer is a dog that's been bred enough so that there is a very proven track record of producing dogs very consistent with the stud (talking about males, here). A good proven producer (there are actually bad proven producers as well) is a dog that that put his "mark" on his pups at very high rate. Proven producers are the "fixers" of the breed; the ones that you can breed dogs with weaknesses to and they tend to "clean things up" more often than not. This is a dog that's had enough pups trained by enough knowledgeable people that there is a consensus in what he throws.

Many of you won't agree with this, but in my opinion field trial stats don't do a very good job for me in determining true proven producers. There are so many variables. We don't have data on how many times these dogs were bred, or more importantly, how many of their offspring were trialed. Who's a more proven producer; the dog that produces 6 FCs out of 24 dogs ever campaigned or the dog that sires 20 FCs out of 50 litters sired, where no one is exactly certain how many of those dogs were campaigned?

Here's another example; two males each sire 20 pups that are campaigned. Both males produce excellent pups. Ace's pups are sold to guys in the same geographic area; those pups will have to consistently compete against each other. This is an area with a high level of interest in GSP trialing; trials are full and with very large stakes. Bo's pups are sold around the country and don't have to run against each other. Many of his pups go to areas of the country with lower than average GSP trial interest; many of those pups run in "other breed" trials. Which male do you think will produce more FCs? Of course championship stakes tend to sort this out, but you get the picture.

Some people are better at getting their pups in the right hands than others; some are actually pretty bad at getting their pups in the right hands. Some guys can "time" a litter really well; put pups on the ground of a certain pedigree when folks are really looking for them. Some guys have the time and resources to keep lots of pups from their sire and work through which ones have "got it" to put those started dogs in the right homes. Others can't do this and work just to unload their pups ASAP; they can't afford to "sit" on dogs. Then you have the average performer who happens to be an excellent producer, but is overshadowed by his half-brother who is a tremendous performer and has won a ton, but really isn't that great of a producer. How many of us have had pros or breeders say "everyone comes here to breed to A, but if you really want "a good one" breed to B? I certainly have.

Then you have the issue of "average" or "empty" producers; dogs that may be great performers, have lots of titles, get bred a lot and maybe even have lots of titled pups. But these are dogs that are very inconsistent in what they produce, or are very strong in some areas but weak in others, or only cross well with certain lines.

I can think of a stud dog that gets some attention right now; very proven performer and has a handful of winners on the circuit over the last few years including some championship-winning dogs. The talk among trialers is about the kind of winners this dog produces. Talk to the guys who've trained a lot of gundogs sired by this dog and you get the full story; he throws pretty nice dogs but he won't overpower the dam. If she has faults, he's not going to knock them out at any great rate. His influence seems to be less than 50% in the pup; they take after the dam.

I had a conversation with Rabidou this summer about a fairly popular stud dog from a few years back. It was a dog I knew little about (before my time) but saw in a number of pedigrees. His comment was "he produced some good ones, but every good one he produced came out of a really good girl."

So I guess what I'm saying is that proven producers MIGHT be the leading FT sires of the era, but it can also be the regional dog that produces mainly hunt test dogs or it's the dog owned by a wild bird guide that was never trialed but gets bred a lot. It MIGHT be the dog with the perfect looking pedigree, but it can also be a dog with a pedigree with a mish-mash of stuff, including show dogs and dogs you've never heard of. It might be the untitled littermate to the NFC, instead of the NFC. Or to open up a whole other can of worms, it might not be any of the boys in the litter (even though they were all winners) but the girls might have the goods. There are far more of these dogs out there than we realize; it's not until we set aside our preconceived notions of what is "supposed to work" that we're going to find these dogs.

Once again, these are things that you don't learn by just looking at pedigrees or adding up win & productions stats. These are things you only can learn by looking at actual dog flesh, and talking to objective folks with lots of experience working these dogs. Part of the problem is that as we have bred "best to best" for generation upon generation, it is getting more difficult to identity those excellent producers that above the average standard of the day.

Sometimes the best restaurant in town isn't the big fancy place on the corner of 1st and Main; sometimes it's the hole-in-the-wall joint that's lacking in decor, has no awards on the wall and a pretty limited menu. Then again, I've eaten at some of the legendary "small town cafes" that had some pretty terrible food; made me wish I had gone to the big fancy place. Some times they're big and fancy for a reason.

Sorry for ramblin on.

JMO,
Dave

[Greg Jennings]

This is a very good thread. Thanks to all the knowledgeable folks for posting.

[ezzy333]

I think Dave's post is exactly right. And the best producers will never be agreed upon since everyone is looking at something a little different. But the dog that consistantly improves the pups from what the dam shows is the type dog that should be used. That means forget the titles and look at what you need in your pups and then find the dogs that excell in that area and consistantly improve the pups. And its all the better if he happens to have a lot of the same breeding the dam has.

Ezzy

[sweetsong]

I agree with Greg. I have learned a lot from reading this thread as well as many others on this form. Thanks to all that have contributed.

Terry

[msrkennels]

While its true we have bred best to best alot times ,these are not neccessarily outcrosses at all ,because most of the original stock is related in one way or another I personally have been going out to who I feel are the best AA dogs out there today Sonny,Nuke,Pappion,Jax and only time will tell, but by my own evaluation, I see several dogs from these litters that are going to be very competive at the national level .I am fornutate to have one of the best bitches out there NAFC Annie's Little Stinker so the bitch makes alot of difference the other great bitches of this era are Selina, Kate and lets not forget Diamond S Stephanie so lets not forget while these stud dogs will improve mediocre bitches its no guarntee that they will be world beaters its more likely they will be average trial dogs for the most part.We also tend to focus on Stud dogs as producers and forget the bitch is also a large part of the equation.

[Fieldmaster]

NFC / NAFC / FC / AFC Beier's Evolution

Was another Great producing sire.

[Joe Amatulli]

Very good Dave but in the GSP world we are not puting 1000 litters a year on the ground and we do not cull, most often the dog you have is the dog you are going to play with. The mistake that a lot of people make is that the dog that may be OK but not the top of the game gets bread and you know what, you just get a dog that may be OK. Read the wright up for this years futurity a number of those dogs are going to get bread although they at best are only mediocre, again because that's what they have!

One more point I do beleive that the bitch is 60% of the breeding, but to often people pick litters because of the stud, like John told you when the dog was bread to a good bitch. That is what I would be looking at first.

Also keep in mind that some 2/3 of the dogs that are competing in derby will not make it to broke dog, that is a fact, why is another subject, the only thing I will say is that it's not all the fault of the dogs.

[Fieldmaster]

One more point I do beleive that the bitch is 60% of the breeding, but to often people pick litters because of the stud, like John told you when the dog was bread to a good bitch. That is what I would be looking at first.

AMEN !! AMEN !!! AMEN!!!!

Programs should be geared around your bitches. Great bitches are what brings out the best in Great Stud Dogs.....

[BigShooter]

It was mentioned in another post that when looking a possible stud one should look for proven producers. Who are the proven producers for the GSP's both presently and in the past?

Thanks
Terry

We've gotten a nice dissertation about one definition of a producer. However, there are so many variables both in what a breeder wants or needs and in whether they can assess if they have found a "truly objective" person or persons with lots of experience to assist them with the best choice of a proven producer that meets their needs. Then one gets to layer in statistical probabilities. What is the statistical likelihood that mating with a proven producer (stud or dam) will produce X% of a litter with the desired traits. Let's say someone is looking to produce a true AA dog. With a litter of 8 what is the likelihood you will get one AA FC, 2 AA FCs, 3 AA FCs, one AA NC? With a litter of six what is the probability 100% of the pups will have all of the desired traits? I keep saying and hearing the perfect dog doesn't exist.

Genetics & potential only take us so far. A dog with the right trainer will out perform the same dog with the wrong trainer.

See the dog flesh and talk to knowlegeable folks. A better question might be who are the top dozen or two of unbiased, proven GSP breeders & trainers that anyone could talk to that would sort through the variables and give you the best chance of putting together the best breeding to meet your requirements?

I'll add my vote to 60% is the bitch.

Mark

[msrkennels]

The problem is the great bitches rarely get bred enough because either they don't cycle rite, due to conditioning ,or the owner doesn't want to lose time competing so better get a pup from the best when oppurtunity presents its self.

[Dave Quindt]

Joe,

I understand what you are saying; we're not that far apart. I didn't ride the Futurity this year; went hunting instead.

The question that needs to be asked is why did the breeders of those Futurity dogs "Why did you select the sire you bred to? Was it because of what they won, or what they produced?"

My concern is that we are so focused on producing winners, and ignoring producing quality litters as a whole.

Msrkennels wrote:

While its true we have bred best to best alot times ,these are not neccessarily outcrosses at all ,because most of the original stock is related in one way or another

James, what I'm getting at is as the average dog as gotten better over the last 30 years, it's become harder to identify those exceptional producers. Look at Paddock's old Buddy dog; he was done breeding by the time everyone knew what he had.

Look at Brath with Cecil; trial guys didn't want to breed to him for years because "there's no way I'm breeding to a hunt test dog", ignoring the fact that he was a littermate to a NGSPA AA Nat Ch.

You are right, we are getting tighter and tighter. The gene pool that is "acceptable" to so many trialers is getting smaller and smaller, in part because won't look at a dog unless it has a "perfect pedigree". We're breeding ourselves into a corner.

Ezzy333 wrote:

That means forget the titles and look at what you need in your pups and then find the dogs that excell in that area and consistantly improve the pups.

No, not at all. It means better understanding the performances that those dogs gave to get those titles. It means going to see lots of dogs run; you can't find good producers without looking at what they've produced. Trials are important because they are the best venue we have to allow folks to evaluate lots of potential breeding stock in a relatlively short time.

JMO,
Dave

[Joe Amatulli]

James unfortunately to many people get stuck to often in thier own stuff rather than, hay you know that Betty bitch is one top notch dog and much better than mine, rather than breeding my also ran I think I'll take a pup from her. In the GSP world they look more to knok a dog rather than give them credit, you know that as well as anyone.

Dave we are not apart at all. What you have written is axactly the way I see it, you are just a better writter than I am, it's not one thing that determins a good producer it's everything and like I said you better know what you want, what you need, and what you are going to get before you deside on who to breed too and sometimes maybe you should not be breeding that bitch!

[Joe Amatulli]

I was thinking a bit more about this last night and would like to add that, like I said 2/3 of the derbys will not make at the broke dog level and as Dave said a lot has to do with who has these pups. Some people seem to keep coming up with one compeditive dog after another, I am not going to mention names, but I will say that these two people had litter mates one dog went on to win over 20 championships the other backed into 3, if the dogs were reversed the results would have been the same! The success of a lot of producers is direckly tied to who gets his pups. Some people just don't get it and never will, but not all people play this game to win. I've seen a lot of outstanding pups from Saddle that would have been world beaters, but the owner simply unwilling or unable to get the dog to that level.

I can comment dogs that I have seen Saddle, Nuke, Slick and a few other, but I would be interested to hear from some of the people that know dogs like Clown, Billy, Dude, Rusty, and any of the other dogs that have been dominant in our breed, what are thier plus and minuses.

[Joe Amatulli]

The one that started it all KJ's Hightailing Saddle, Kevin Joyce is a very good freind of mine.

[ACooper]

I heard a horse breeder say one time "Find a colt you like and then go breed to his sire". Seems people breed to the dog they like instead of breeding to a dog they likes father when that dog is still around.

JMO