American Field compared to NSTRA

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:13 pm

After reading post from the AF article topic got even more confused on things. DONT want to stir things up. So could those that do NSTRA please tell us the pros and cons from your event and AF and AKC do the same? And maybe what you see as the major difference is ( in a nice way ). I have been to a few AF events, AKC hunt test and Navhda test but no Nstra yet. They all seem like they have fun!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:37 pm

It is just another way for people to enjoy thier dogs

back to my analogy You have a table You have a deck of cards there are many different ways to play on the same table same deck of cards with different rules

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:15 pm

In the end, a good dog is a good dog and the good ones will excel in whatever game their owner chooses to put them down in.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:21 pm

They all seem like they have fun!

They are all fun, but serve a different purpose.

The primary purpose of broke dog field trialing (both AKC and AF) is to provide the breeder a way to evaluate breeding stock Here's what Willima F Brown, longtime editor of the American Field wrote:

Fundamentally, the real purpose of field trials is breed improvement, and the elevation of pointing dog performance in the hunting field....
Field trials were not instituted for the purpose of bringing to the front a dog or class of dogs eminently suited to the wants of the average gunner whose primary objective in using a dog afield is to swell the game bag regardless of the manner that his dog performs. Rather it is for the purpose of bringing to the notice of the public a class of performers best suited to perpetuate the most desirable qualities possessed by the high-class field trial dog

NSTRA has been very clear through the years about its primary purpose; to provide events that are fun. For years, their advertising program was based around the phrase "more action per acre". From NSTRA's website:

The National Shoot-to-Retrieve Field Trial Association's field trials were started by a group of dedicated bird hunters who were looking for a way to extend the fun they enjoyed with their bird dogs after their season ended.

Both formats are fun, and both have their supporters and followers. But all one has to do is look at the pedigrees of dogs from both formats to see the bigger picture. In the majority of cases, leading NSTRA champions are the products of generations upon generations of field trial champions. At the same time, you almost never see field trial champions coming from pedigrees filled with NSTRA champions.

There's lots of talk about the challenges that broke dog field trialing is under right now. IMO, NSTRA is not the cause of this. The real cause is the loss of wild bird hunting and even more, the loss of the hunter's appreciation for a well-mannered, highly polished birddog. We see the growth of preserve hunting, which fits the NSTRA type events quite well.

They both serve a purpose, and there's no reason why they both can't exist. But the idea that they are equal in purpose ignores the obvious.

JMO,
Dave

shorthairguy · Post by **shorthairguy** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:55 pm

There is a reason you dont see Champions in pedigrees from NSTRA dogs....AKC or FDSB does not recognize them.

Dave Quindt wrote:
They all seem like they have fun!
They are all fun, but serve a different purpose.

The primary purpose of broke dog field trialing (both AKC and AF) is to provide the breeder a way to evaluate breeding stock Here's what Willima F Brown, longtime editor of the American Field wrote:

Fundamentally, the real purpose of field trials is breed improvement, and the elevation of pointing dog performance in the hunting field....
Field trials were not instituted for the purpose of bringing to the front a dog or class of dogs eminently suited to the wants of the average gunner whose primary objective in using a dog afield is to swell the game bag regardless of the manner that his dog performs. Rather it is for the purpose of bringing to the notice of the public a class of performers best suited to perpetuate the most desirable qualities possessed by the high-class field trial dog
NSTRA has been very clear through the years about its primary purpose; to provide events that are fun. For years, their advertising program was based around the phrase "more action per acre". From NSTRA's website:
The National Shoot-to-Retrieve Field Trial Association's field trials were started by a group of dedicated bird hunters who were looking for a way to extend the fun they enjoyed with their bird dogs after their season ended.
Both formats are fun, and both have their supporters and followers. But all one has to do is look at the pedigrees of dogs from both formats to see the bigger picture. In the majority of cases, leading NSTRA champions are the products of generations upon generations of field trial champions. At the same time, you almost never see field trial champions coming from pedigrees filled with NSTRA champions.

There's lots of talk about the challenges that broke dog field trialing is under right now. IMO, NSTRA is not the cause of this. The real cause is the loss of wild bird hunting and even more, the loss of the hunter's appreciation for a well-mannered, highly polished birddog. We see the growth of preserve hunting, which fits the NSTRA type events quite well.

They both serve a purpose, and there's no reason why they both can't exist. But the idea that they are equal in purpose ignores the obvious.

JMO,
Dave

huntindog · Post by **huntindog** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:58 pm

I'll take a stab at AKC Field Trials.
They are judged subjectively, with no established point system. This can make them the hardest to learn and understand a good performance. To top it off, every judge has a different idea of just what they like to see. So in AKC knowing what the judges like is the first thing to learn, then try to show them what they want to see. My first year, I always talked to the judges after a trial. I learned what they liked, and I learned what my dogs strong and weak points were.
A good performance is hard to describe, but if you watch enough braces you will figure it out. Such a performance has you sitting up and taking notice. Some braces,,,well they tend to put you to sleep.

AKC rarely shoots birds, even rarer is shooting on course. (Some trials are designated retrieving stakes for those breeds that need it)
AKC is not really hunting, but more like a show. Take one rule that drives me nuts. After blanking a bird, a dog cannot go in the direction that the bird(s) flew.
That is exactly opposite of what you would do in a hunting situation.

To me, AKC is a thrill, well at least when my dogs are doing it right! Often times it is a very humbling experience. It pays to develop a thick skin.

The main advantage of AKC is that you can put titles on dogs. AKC has many different types of titles,(show,field , agility, etc) and you can get them all on an AKC pedigree. AKC pedigrees are probably the most well known of all the different registries.

AKC tends to have breed specific clubs, that may allow other breeds to compete at their trials, but their main purpose is to advance their specific breed.

I'll just make quick comments on AF and NSTRA.

AF is very similar to AKC, but they tend to favor bigger running dogs. AF is very strongly represented by Pointers and Setters.

NSTRA, allows you to shoot birds over your dog, and is judged on a point system. When you come off the field, you know your score. (Both AKC and AF keep you in suspense until results are anounced after the stake.)

shorthairguy · Post by **shorthairguy** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:00 pm

One drawback I see is that there champions are not recognized by the AKC or FDSB so if you are a breeder it is harder to explain they are champion dogs cause it is not on their papers.

That is the only drawback that I have seen as of yet for me.

Just remember to choose the format that will get you what you want out of your birddog. It might not be either of them.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:06 pm

huntindog wrote: Take one rule that drives me nuts. After blanking a bird, a dog cannot go in the direction that the bird(s) flew.
That is exactly opposite of what you would do in a hunting situation.

HIJACK ALERT!!!!!

Not where and how I hunt.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:08 pm

shorthairguy wrote:One drawback I see is that there champions are not recognized by the AKC or FDSB so if you are a breeder it is harder to explain they are champion dogs cause it is not on their papers.

That is the only drawback that I have seen as of yet for me.

Just remember to choose the format that will get you what you want out of your birddog. It might not be either of them.

I am sure that NSTRA will be jumping into the registry game pretty soon. More money income and a "captive" clientele.

shorthairguy · Post by **shorthairguy** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:15 pm

We already have a registry but AKC is probably the most known and then would come the FDSB.

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:28 pm

Nice info so far but not exactly how I asked for it. Lets play nice.

Does'nt Nstra have Champions? My Avatar's parents are nstra Champions and one her grandparents has AKC title.

So is the major difference one wants complete broke dog ,to not shoot bird and different registry?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:07 pm

huntindog is dead on SPOT ON

as for regsitries actually chicago publishing was an original American registry AKC foundation registry comes from chicago publishing...NSTRA they have their now...even though I am a NSTRA trial person All my dogs are AKC and FDSB registered as in truth all the stock comes frm the same base dogs

If you really have a GOOD dog ..what ever YOU train them to do a Good dog will do it

and as for ease hey if it was so easy there would be multitudes of 32+ times champions fact is there isn't

as with anyting yoou train you go out and pput your best foot forward if you had fun and got a plaque or a ribbon at the end of the day you done well ...Enjoy rejoice that is what counts I like coke you like pepsi guess what they are both successful..no big deal

Sorry but do what YOU and YOur dog enjoy if you do well all the better its all good

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:54 am

jakemaster wrote:Does'nt Nstra have Champions? My Avatar's parents are nstra Champions and one her grandparents has AKC title.

Yes that is one of the goals in NSTRA - Champion your dog. It takes 18 points to be a champion and 9 of those 18 points MUST come from placing first. In a full trial (24-32 dogs (I believe)) points are awarded as follows - First 3 points, Second - 2 points and Third 1 point.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:03 pm

The different types of trials are more sutted for the different people. All are fun and all are the same, but different, it depends on what YOU like. I look for a really challenge and run mostly AF and a little AKC, I like the difficulty that a 60 min. championship gives you. The dogs need to simply be trained harder and be of a higher calaber that AKC, but that is not to say that, if you just run AKC you have an inferior dog to a dog that runs AF. Or that you MH or FC or what ever title you like is any better or worse than what someone else might like. It is only different and all can play. People too often forget that the bottom line is we all love our dogs and our sport and all of it should be respected!

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:08 am

The level of training is the biggest differance. AF dogs have a PHD and Nstra dogs are finishing high school. Any dog can run in a NSTRA trial which limits the strength of the field in my eyes. Who are you actually beating to get the points??????? The other formats require a dog to be broke to enter. AF dogs must be qualified to run in Championships.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:33 am

AFTCA is probably the most difficult to obtain a CH title in.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:42 am

Not for George and Mike Tracy ( Calico Kennels) apparently.

When they show up, many a hopeful's heart sinks. I definately don't begrudge them their Championship wins - unlike some locals who forget they are only a big fish in a small pond . May the best dog win!

" CH Stonefree"

Ontario Open Shooting Dog Championship
2007

shorthairguy · Post by **shorthairguy** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:42 am

You have to qualify to run NSTRA championship trials(nationals)....
Our dogs are broke to flush.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:10 pm

shorthairguy wrote:You have to qualify to run NSTRA championship trials(nationals)....
Our dogs are broke to flush.

Using the word broke is where you guys screw everyone up. When I started to trial I checked out both NSTRA and the AF/AKC game. The NSTRA boys kept telling me there dogs are broke. I did not run because mine were not. I went and watched a trial and saw that the dogs were not in the ballpark of broke. They told me the same line.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:26 pm

I guess there are different definitions of broke. NSTRA dogs are broke to flush, and force broke to retrieve. Those who say our dogs are "broke" probably need to be more specific.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:49 pm

romeo212000 wrote:I guess there are different definitions of broke. NSTRA dogs are broke to flush, and force broke to retrieve. Those who say our dogs are "broke" probably need to be more specific.

Broke is like being pregnant; either you are or you ain't.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:01 pm

NSTRA dogs are required to be staunch.
MH, UT, and FC dogs are required to be broke.

There are not different definitions, only perversions.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:43 pm

No you have lost your mind! Broke is broke period. Staunch is what a dog should teach itself.

Do you really think that an American Field Champion and a NSTRA Champion should be considered the same?????????????????????

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:17 pm

shorthairguy wrote:You have to qualify to run NSTRA championship trials(nationals)....

Is there any difference between the CH you get by accumulating points and the CH you get by winning a CH trial?

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Razor wrote:No you have lost your mind! Broke is broke period. Staunch is what a dog should teach itself.

Dogs do not teach themselves to be staunch. Your average dog teaches itself to be staunch until the handler goes into for the flush. Your average bird dog will go in with the hunter and not remain steady to flush. NSTRA dogs must be steady to flush

Razor wrote:Do you really think that an American Field Champion and a NSTRA Champion should be considered the same?????????????????????

No. In the same way a Rugby Champion and Football Champion cannot be considered the same because they are two different game.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:36 pm

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

In the past, when NSTRA and th AF were partnering. I believe that the AF did in fact recognize SOME of the NSTRA championships. I believe that they did not recognize the points championships but did in fact recognize and put on the pedigrees of the winning dogs, placements in the NSTRA elimination type championships.

Such elimination type events are, I think, indeed a significant test of a dog...much in the same vein as an AF championship which has a qualifying round and a call back or an invitational where the invited dogs are the best of the best. As far a which is better I will answer that in this way....

Is the dog that wins a championship with only six entries better than a dog that beat a full field of dogs on day on, then did it again on day two and once again on day three? Championships are awarded in AFTCA stakes with some having fewer than a dozen entries. It is not desirable but it happens.

Different isn't necessarily good or bad...just different.

And for what it is worth, give me a staunch dog that will hold its birds intil I get there, standing high and tight and looking like a million dollars over a dead broke dog that is standing there looking like it is waiting to get its next whipping.

A very good friend of mine convinced me to cross register muy dogs and compete in AKC stakes with the folllowing statement:

"Ray, as near as I can figure, dogs cannot read a lick so they have absolutely no clue who is sanctioning an event. They also don't much care as far as I can tell. All they know is that there are birds out there, boss is there and they get to run, hunt and find birds. Sometimes they also get to retrieve."

I think the logic in that statement is undeniable, especially if we are about the dogs and having fun.

Do we really need to beat each other up?

RayG

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:43 pm

In my opinion any dog who is able to consistently place and win enough to earn enough points to become a champion is a proven dog. The logic about a dog's champion title only counting in a champion or elimination trial is flawed in my opinion from personal experience. There is a dog that runs in our region that is a fantastic dog. Oklahoma has a very tough NSTRA region and this dog is one of the most consistent dogs I have ever seen. She is a joy to watch, and in my opinion could compete in any venue. She is a multiple Champion but as anyone knows there is a certain element of luck involved with any dog in any trial and she just has not had that little element of luck on those big trials or runs. She has had some fantastic runs but jusst not quite enough. I do not think that should detract from how good of a dog she truly is.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:58 pm

Excellent post Ray.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:25 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I guess there are different definitions of broke. NSTRA dogs are broke to flush, and force broke to retrieve. Those who say our dogs are "broke" probably need to be more specific.

Broke is like being pregnant; either you are or you ain't.

I love that!! So many people say, "Well, he's almost broke." "He's kinda broke." I love it!!

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:27 pm

Razor wrote:No you have lost your mind! Broke is broke period. Staunch is what a dog should teach itself.

Do you really think that an American Field Champion and a NSTRA Champion should be considered the same?????????????????????

Now you've done it.

I didn't have the guts to say that.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:27 pm

I will say I have never said almost broke or kind of broke. I say steady to flush, or broke to flush.

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:34 pm

snips wrote:Excellent post Ray.

Ditto.

It is all just training. Steady to wing and shot is training, just like steady to wing and force-retreive is training. Do what you like and let it be. There are professional handlers, trainers and excellent dogs in all venues. To win in any venue takes a great deal of training, and solid dog and a fair amount of luck.

okie · Post by **okie** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:18 pm

I don't think you can take a NSTRA Champion and win in American Field trials. I will also say I don't think you will take an American Field Champion in win in NSTRA. If you don't agree with my second statement, don't tell me. Just show me.
Dave

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:29 pm

okie wrote:I don't think you can take a NSTRA Champion and win in American Field trials. I will also say I don't think you will take an American Field Champion in win in NSTRA. If you don't agree with my second statement, don't tell me. Just show me.
Dave

There are some that are capable of both. Joe's Little Crow, and Nolan's Last Bullet comes to mind. But really they are the exceptions. As you said the fact is dogs are bred and trained for the different venues and therefore it is difficult to take one dog who has been trained and bred for one and compete in the other.

Rock Hard Kennels · Post by **Rock Hard Kennels** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:40 pm

With all due respect Romeo, that is a rediculous statment. All champion AF dogs are at the minimum trained steady to flush and if not more cannot compete and 90% of all NSTRA dogs are bred with AKC and AF lines. I have seen very few NSTRA bred dogs.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:02 pm

With all due respect I find your post confusing. i could not be reading it correctly.
Apart from the breeding scenario, how could a big running pointer, hunting out there 1/4 to 1/2 a mile , compete in NASTRA? His breeding is to run big.

Rock Hard Kennels · Post by **Rock Hard Kennels** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:08 pm

Isn't the shooting dog an american field dog. I own a couple nice shooting dogs and have had some success in AF trials. My shooting dogs hunt for the gun and range according to terrain and cover and will stretch out in front of a horse.
The prarie all age dog will adjust to the gun as well and ames is a fine example of hunting close quarters.

Rock Hard Kennels · Post by **Rock Hard Kennels** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:14 pm

I train my shooting dogs off horse back without collars on occasion in an area smaller than 40 acres and have no problem with the handling. You train for handling. I am positive a pro or amateur with any connection and handle on his all age dog could keep contact with his bigger running dog. It is just not where the dog is its most comfortable.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:28 pm

I have a Brittany that is an AKC Field Champion with American Field horseback wins against pointers that has also won in QU NSTRA type trials.

I did have some problems keeping him within the confines of the designated NSTRA field, he seems to think birds ought to be at objectives. His being steady to wing, shot and fall may have cost us a few points, but not many.

Azul is a nice dog, but I doubt he could have won at the highest NSTRA levels.

There are good dogs in every venue, and I respect a champion in them all.

Neil

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:29 pm

Sharon wrote:With all due respect I find your post confusing. i could not be reading it correctly.
Apart from the breeding scenario, how could a big running pointer, hunting out there 1/4 to 1/2 a mile , compete in NASTRA? His breeding is to run big.

It's called handling or in this case hacking.

Mind you not all AF stakes need 1/4 mile dogs but all do run on much larger grounds so the dog would have to adjust from running from a comparitive football field to a foosball table. I got to watch True Spirit work on foot the year he won the NC sure could not tell he was a dog who regularly cut huge swaths on the praries. Bodacious Boone from what I understand was the same a very comfortable foot dog and I know that Texas Trailrider was very handleable off foot as a youngun. Sure not all are as adaptable as those three examples but I reckon were we to get some folks who regularly see some of the best AA in action they could add several more examples to mine.

Oh yeah let's add a couple more. Jetsetter, who has won Ch in HB and Walking or a good friends dog Teels Elhew Boomer who has wins in both SD and Walking and is hunted off foot every year since we raised him from the whelping box. Lots more out there I reckon on the AF side who could do dual duty than some wanna admit there are.

Rock Hard Kennels · Post by **Rock Hard Kennels** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:41 pm

Sharon I have watched and been braced with the last three national NGSPA all age champions over the last few yrs I know what an all age dog looks like. Well Duane I respect your opinion. I have respect for all champions as well. I was nearly stating to make a blanket statement like it couldn't happen because of NSTRA breeding is ridiculous. I see the training level as the difference more than a talent level. And with training being the main difference of the two don't you think with the origin of AF type trials starting in the 1800's it would stand to reason they have bred for trainability for over a century where as staunchest being the emphasis over broke work in this young organization that it could neglect some important breeding aspects as it goes along?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:47 pm

Shesh. I'm at my wits end with some of the folks posting on this.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:01 pm

[quote="romeo212000"]In my opinion any dog who is able to consistently place and win enough to earn enough points to become a champion is a proven dog. The logic about a dog's champion title only counting in a champion or elimination trial is flawed in my opinion from personal experience. quote]

Romeo - I agree with you...to an extent. I have a similar view of a NSTRA Ch. won on points as I have of an AKC FC or AFC which is also won on points. They are a demonstration of consistently good performances by the dog, but the level of the competition is always a question. In the AKC scenario for example, the points may all be garnered in half hour braces. There is a postively HUGE difference between keeping a dog perfect(and the handler too) for an entire hour as opposed to a half hour. There is also often a HUGE difference between Amateur and Open stakes. The level of competition is, many times and in many places...quite different.

This in no way is meant to detract from a quality performance put down by a dog in ANY venue. A good dog is a good dog. It is just that the level of competition can be very much different. I am sure that at a NSTRA national event where there is a multiple elimination, that also tends to bring out the very best of that type competitor. That is why I do feel that a dog that can fight its way to the top through a multiple elimination field on successive days should be considered a noteworthy dog and a "cut above".

In the same vein, if a dog is put down in an AF Invitational format, on two successive days , in hour braces with different bracemates and, based on the sum of the two days performances be selected to run on a third day an then to be judged a winner...I feel that is also a pretty special dog.

Different...but still special.

RayG

Rock Hard Kennels · Post by **Rock Hard Kennels** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:17 pm

I want to make clear that I have seen some dogs that run in NSTRA that are very nice dogs. Some could compete on a higher level if they took them to a higher training plateau.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:22 pm

Well Duane I respect your opinion. I have respect for all champions as well. I was nearly stating to make a blanket statement like it couldn't happen because of NSTRA breeding is ridicul

Rockhard my post was a demonstration that despite this bit of wisdom:

I will also say I don't think you will take an American Field Champion in win in NSTRA. If you don't agree with my second statement, don't tell me. Just show me.
Dave

I myself have seen such dogs. Do they run NSTRA? Yeah and Secratariat plowed the fields on non race days and Terry Bradsahw played with the XFL on his off weeks also. Sorry Dave but aint gonna happen!! Why should they take a step back in level kinda like an NFL Pro Bowler deciding to go play Arena football because somene says they cant play on such a small field. No one intentionally takes a step back in level in ANY sport I don't care what it is and despite the inevitable protestations NSTRA would be taking a step back from top AF of AKC level.

okie · Post by **okie** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:44 pm

Duane
Let me start by saying that I have enjoyed several threads that you were in on that was about breeding of pointers. I respect your knowledge of the breeding of field trial pointers. I have a NSTRA champion dog that would be considered pretty average among the better NSTRA dogs. I don't travel well anymore because of back problems. But If you ever get up this way I would love to run her against one of the American Field shooting dog champions with 5 birds in a 40 acre field NSTRA rules. If she loses I would buy you a steak dinner and pay your gas. I have always loved American Field Trial pointers, and was strictly a birdhunter for 30 years. I no longer am able to bird hunt so I keep a couple of dogs and run NSTRA. I might learn something.
Dave

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:52 pm

I run AF Horseback and AF Walking trials. I have also put a NSTRA Championship on a dog. If I wanted to go back and compete at the highest level in NSTRA I would get the best bred AF Field Trial blood I could find and train for it. As it stands right now, I could pull my Shooting Dogs from the Horseback circuit and easily convert them to NSTRA dogs.

There are many AF Field trial dogs that could be trained for NSTRA. ...and having competed in NSTRA and having seen those dogs, I would say that there are NSTRA dogs that could compete in AF as well. Point is, good dogs are good dogs and I have seen both in both venues.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:19 pm

Sounds like there are some bona fide show folks on this thread - you know the kind who put a JH on a dog and call it a Dual Quality Field Dog. After all everyone knows that the only difference between a JH and a MH or a FC even is time and training - right???

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:04 pm

The question is not would they? The question is could they? And yes, NSTRA is becoming popular enough that while many lines are coming from field bred lines I am starting to see more and more dogs being bred and bought based on the qualities they posess based on the NSTRA format within the NSTRA organization. Keep in mind that the Amercian Field has been around longer than NSTRA which is why many NSTRA dogs are from AF lines. Let me tell you something about bringing an American Field dog to the NSTRA game. While they may be broke and have the manners on birds, they are not used to handling off foot within a smaller venue in which hunt usually. Can a dog be handled within that area? Yes, but then you get to hacking at a dog and we all know what happens when you start hacking at a dog consistently. I have seen more than one horseback dog have a runaway and disappear out of the NSTRA field because the dog is not used to handling in that manner. I know there are exceptions but they are just that exceptions. Just like there are exceptions with NSTRA dogs being good in the AF format.

At the end of the day a good dog is a good dog. People just need to learn to accept that.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:11 pm

Gotta agree with you Ross, good dogs are good dogs. They reach out to achieve whatever you throw at them, no matter what venue it is.