Garmin Astro

[Ken Lynch]

Martin, you agree with my statement that there will always be cheaters. However you then proceed to assume that therefore everyone wants to or will cheat. You state “We lock our houses as a reasonable precaution to deter most thieves. We keep our keys in our pockets, not hanging on a hook next to the door.” Are you implying that the vast majority of those who participate in field trials have a larger predisposition to cheat? I happen to live in an area where robberies are very rare. I have evaluated the threat level and chosen not to lock my house every time I step out. I do not fret over the latest carpentry tool that comes onto the market and go speak to my politicians to ban it for fear that someone MIGHT use it to break into my house should I choose to lock it and leave. As you also stated “All things in life are a balance. I could die in a traffic accident on my way to work tomorrow. Obviously, I will still go to work, even though it would be safer not to go.” If the level of cheating gets to such a level that we alter the way we do things then perhaps we ought to address cheating. Just remember All Tools are created equal. By themselves they can do nothing. But in the hands of a person they have the ability to be used for good or evil. As you might guess I tend to think all people are good and I deal with the evil ones when they show their face.

[Ken Lynch]

Meanwhile back at the ranch can anyone come up with answers to the questions I previously posted?

“I have several questions. In the above letter from AKC it states “…field events limits usage to those units that weigh less than 5 ounces, excluding the strap itself.” My question is what do people think the “unit” consists of? Is it just the piece that consists of the transmitter? Or is it transmitter and antenna? Or transmitter, antenna, and hardware necessary to mount everything to the collar? Garmin advertises their unit (DC 30) as “4.1 oz (116 g) for transmitter and antenna”. Where does the discussion about the Garmin being over weight come from? How does American Field define the equipment used for tracking? What was the rational from American Field and AKC for allowing the use of tracking devices in the first place? Which organization was the first to allow their use?”

[phermes1]

Meanwhile back at the ranch can anyone come up with answers to the questions I previously posted?

“I have several questions. In the above letter from AKC it states “…field events limits usage to those units that weigh less than 5 ounces, excluding the strap itself.” My question is what do people think the “unit” consists of? Is it just the piece that consists of the transmitter? Or is it transmitter and antenna? Or transmitter, antenna, and hardware necessary to mount everything to the collar? Garmin advertises their unit (DC 30) as “4.1 oz (116 g) for transmitter and antenna”. Where does the discussion about the Garmin being over weight come from? How does American Field define the equipment used for tracking? What was the rational from American Field and AKC for allowing the use of tracking devices in the first place? Which organization was the first to allow their use?”

The AKC weighs all of the hardware associated with the technology; antenna, transmitter, batteries, fasteners, etc - basically everything you wouldn't find on a regular collar.
I can't explain the difference between what the AKC weighed and what Garmin has in the specs.

[huntindog]

Martin, you agree with my statement that there will always be cheaters. However you then proceed to assume that therefore everyone wants to or will cheat. You state “We lock our houses as a reasonable precaution to deter most thieves. We keep our keys in our pockets, not hanging on a hook next to the door.” Are you implying that the vast majority of those who participate in field trials have a larger predisposition to cheat? I happen to live in an area where robberies are very rare. I have evaluated the threat level and chosen not to lock my house every time I step out. I do not fret over the latest carpentry tool that comes onto the market and go speak to my politicians to ban it for fear that someone MIGHT use it to break into my house should I choose to lock it and leave. As you also stated “All things in life are a balance. I could die in a traffic accident on my way to work tomorrow. Obviously, I will still go to work, even though it would be safer not to go.” If the level of cheating gets to such a level that we alter the way we do things then perhaps we ought to address cheating. Just remember All Tools are created equal. By themselves they can do nothing. But in the hands of a person they have the ability to be used for good or evil. As you might guess I tend to think all people are good and I deal with the evil ones when they show their face.

Ken, I never said that most everyone wants to cheat. The thing is, it doesn't take very many people doing it to spoil the game. There also aren't a high percentage of people who are burglars,,,, but it doesn't take very many to have an effect.

We are in a sport in which perceptions matter.

Phermes1 Question - this pro that's against it - what 'secrets' is he trying to keep?
Yeah, we all know what can go on outside of the judge's sight, and that a lot of it isn't exactly legal. Sounds to me like he might be against the Garmin for the wrong reasons.

At certain times he would prefer that no one can tell where his dog really is. He has "good" scouts that can help him show his dog in the best light.

That is why I am a proponent of eliminating scouts and arming everyone with ASTROs.

It is supposed to be about the best dog. Not the best charade.

[DGFavor]

I had been holding out for the rumored training collar/GPS tracking collar combo but apparently that project has been shelved. Decided to pick up a two collar Garmin unit with the new DC 30 and have used it maybe a dozen times hunting and training.

All in all I've been pretty dang impressed. When the collar and the receiver are "talking", it is a spot on phenomenal tool. Of course, when they aren't talking...it's nearly worthless except for the hope that they'll resume talking again soon!! I used 'em extensively hunting quail in the oak country for a week where the dogs, when they were effective, hunted at close 40-150yd. range. I had finds that ranged from a few yards to a couple finds that Stitch had at 383yd and 332yds. Every find, I walked literally straight to the dog without the zigging/zagging/toilet bowl swirling that happens with a telemetry tracker finding dogs in dense cover. Battery life was better than I anticipated for both the receiver and collar units (I did charge the collars every night with the 12V charger).

The bad - the range. I lost reception with the dog from as close as 135yds over sharp ridges. Other times lost reception at a few hundred yards when the dogs would hunt out or over multiple draws. I was also strapping Tracker Supra lite collars on the dogs for insurance/safety. Each time the GPS units lost reception, I pulled out my Tracker receiver and got booming signals and direction...of course I didn't know how far the dog was but I knew where to head to go find 'em.

Since I've been back home I've been out training a few times in more prairie type open grounds. The Garmin unit has continued to be spot on when they are communicating and added baggage when they lose contact. So far I've consistently lost contact at about 700-800yds in very low minimally rolling hills but have picked the dogs back up at over a mile. Today Bugsy went off the GPS grid at about 250yds in pretty open country. I had him on the tracker easily the whole time and didn't see him for almost 30" but knew he was to the front doing whatever it was he was doing. (never found him standing birds so know he wasn't pointing anything!! :roll: ) The Garmin picked him back up at 1.11 miles and kept him as he swung back and did a fly by of me. Lost him again later at 700-800yds. and the Tracker picked him up easily the whole time with the antennaes still folded up. The Garmin picked him back up at 1.03 miles then lost him again till he was almost back in site.

Sooo, my impression is: excellent, excellent tool for the moderate ranging dog - especially in the thick cover. I mean you can walk straight to 'em with no doubt. Very quickly can get a direction/distance on the dog that is pretty spot on. I would have to think they are awesome in the grouse woods. The downfall is range and battery life. For the "really lost" dog those are the two most important areas IMO. As goofy as it is, I'm still going to strap tele collars and the Garmin on the dogs for hunting and training. Absolutely in a field trial where I'm gonna give 'em their head and a up to a 30" head start at getting good and lost, I'm using tele collars even if the Garmin is legal...just can't argue the range and battery life benefits of the tele units at this time.

[R-Heaton]

The Garmin picked him back up at 1.11 miles

What the ???? , dog has no business being in there a mile. Thought you were a wild bird man,,,,, get rid of the electronics and spend a couple of frog pelts on a 20ft. checkcord and get the dog back in where he should be,,, within shotgun range.

[DGFavor]

get rid of the electronics and spend a couple of frog pelts on a 20ft. checkcord and get the dog back in where he should be,,, within shotgun range.

This ain't the piddleee Y-hee mountains over here man where dogs potter around and snort up a bird or two. This is big time prairie stuff where a dog's gotta get on in there and roust things around a little. Make a presence. I'm thinking maybe the way to go is gonna be to clip my cell phone to his collar then stick my Jabra bluetooth in his ear. Just give him a call when I need to see what's up. That should cover most communication avenues - tele, GPS, cellular...wonder if I oughta add one of those Motorola FM walkabout radios to the mix though...?

[Neil Mace]

First, if your unit is working correctly, it will take you to where it last had a signal, and hopefully you will pick it up while in route.

Most importantly, get one of the long range antennas, there is a car top and one that will go in your saddle bags. Either will extend the range to 15+ miles.

It is a $50.00 must have for big running dogs.

Neil

[glk7243]

Most importantly, get one of the long range antennas, there is a car top and one that will go in your saddle bags. Either will extend the range to 15+ miles.

Neil

Neil,
Does the LR antenna help much with hills. In our country that is what kills the signal.
Thanks
Gary

[Neil Mace]

WE don't have many sure enough hills in W. Tenn. But with the few minor ones we do have it extends the range to as far as I wanted to drive, 12 miles. I have had reports of the car top one of 25+ miles.

Neil

[glk7243]

Thanks Neil,

I think I'll order one and see if it helps. If not, I'll send it to Doc Favor, it's flat over on his side of the state.

Gary

[DGFavor]

You've got one of these contraptions Gary? Geez, your dog's necks must look like mine do! What kinda range you getting over there? I'm curious to see how it'll work at Secret Spot #31 where we typically get alot of static in our telemetry systems. Can I borrow your new long range antennae? In fact, since you've probably marked and saved all those coveys you've been finding on your GPS, you might as well just lend me your whole system. You can use mine in the meantime and feel free to log some new coveys into it. I haven't learned how to mark coveys on it yet so don't bother looking thru my super secret files. Thanks tons!

[glk7243]

Hey Doug,

I was using a friends hound tracker with a large fold out antennae. It worked good but was a pain in the butt. Obviously, as you know, steep hills greatly diminishes that signal too. The new gizmo is a lot easier to use. Power lines do not seem to have any affect on it. I have had the dog at 1 to 1 1/4 miles a lot with no signal loss. Now if you add any kind of incline that is a different story. You have probably noticed you can have a good signal and then walk towards even a small hill and when you get right at the base you loose the signal until you pop over. It certainly is not perfect but it has been a huge help to me in finding those no good for nothing run off trial dogs. It is also nice getting a beep to tell you that a dog went on point. It is also helpfull in finding a dog in heavy sage on a sidehill on point. I had always used beepers but now I don't have to listen to those stupid things anymore. I am hoping that LR antennae will help increase that signal at least for the rolling hills. I'm sure it will not work once the dog breaks over a big canyon. When I get it and try it out I'll let you know if it's worth it. If it's not I'll just give it to you.

Regards
Gary

Does your dogs neck look like this ?

[Grange]

Reminds me of a picture I saw as a kid. It was a woman wearing several rings around her neck, which were supposedly designed to enlongate her neck. I'm working on my bank account so I can get the astro.

[DGFavor]

Does your dogs neck look like this ?

Close!! Ridiculous huh!! The Garmin ain't exactly petite!

[Pineywoods]

The last two photos made me wonder;
How do those dogs keep there back feet on the ground when pointing ?
Do you need a pack mule to carry all your gear to use that stuff ?
How would those dogs remove a thorn from a rear paw ?
Do they have to turn around to look back at you ?
I bet that stops them from licking there self .

[R-Heaton]

How do those dogs keep there back feet on the ground when pointing

Nobody said anything about pointing,,,,, all about the run.

[Pineywoods]

How do those dogs keep there back feet on the ground when pointing

Nobody said anything about pointing,,,,, all about the run.

I'm sorry I forgot .

[glk7243]

Nobody said anything about pointing,,,,, all about the run.

Hey Rich,
Is the snow off the hill yet?
I'd like to try and run with you a little and see if I could get my wild thing around a derby course.
Probably loose her on the break a way.
Gary

[Nebraska]

The last two photos made me wonder;
How do those dogs keep there back feet on the ground when pointing ?
Do you need a pack mule to carry all your gear to use that stuff ?
How would those dogs remove a thorn from a rear paw ?
Do they have to turn around to look back at you ?
I bet that stops them from licking there self .

[R-Heaton]

Gary,,,,, you talking 9,,,,, we were out Sat and ran 7 probably to say the 4 mile marker along the highway,,,, looking for some sage grouse. We did alright a few huns and a few sage grouse. Now Sunday was a kick,, went to one of Docs spots that I showed him that he laid claim to and had 10 finds in 2 hours. First set of dogs had 7 in an 1:20 and ran Ben and the pups and he had 3 finds in 40 minutes with the 2 young pups trailing him around. It will be a few weeks before can get up to the true 9,,,, still a fair amount of snow and drifts,,, and no reason for the birds to be hanging around up there.

Or were you talking the top of HB Hill,,,, sent dad up there 3 or 4 days ago,,,,, still can't get in,,,, getting closer but with the melt off might get worse before it gets better. Your truck might be able to get there,,, to risky with the trailer.

[DGFavor]

Today running in some tight draws the thing was giving me some grossly inaccurate directions - completely opposite the direction the dogs showed. I imagine you can get signal bounce just like with tele but I thought there was actual location information being sent from the dog's transmitter to the handheld so bounce shouldn't matter...should it?? Recalibrated the compass but still had a couple goofy episodes with it. Worked great out in the open - had 5 pairs of huns and 1 covey of about 8 huns apparently still sorting out who is gonna date who. Found Scoots standing with it 3 times absolutely spot on the location - pretty cool tool when it's sync'd up.

went to one of Docs spots that I showed him that he laid claim to and had 10 finds in 2 hours.

Hah, good one! I can still see the disbelief in your faces doubting any birds were out there when I convinced ya' to check it out in the first place. Where would you guys be without my willingness to wander aimlessly into the wilds following some bootlickin' GSP's to check out a hunch on the horizon. Good to know there are still some renegade chuks out there.

[glk7243]

Doug,
I just ordered the LR antennae. Hopefully it will get here and I can try it out this weekend and let you know if it helps.
Regards
Gary

Just curious though, why do you even need a tracker? I thought with those BE dogs they were all genetically trained to not run off.

Rich,
There is a lot less snow than last year. I have not been out on wild birds for the last few weeks. Been working on trying to get a slight amount of control, using a rope and a boat anchor.