FDSB pulling Hank and Dash registration ?

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:44 am

I was reading the Decoverly post's and read a little piece about the FDSB pulling Hank and Dash's registration. I didn't want to steal the thread so I thought I would start a new one. Of course I have seen the show several times but wouldn't consider myself a devoted fan but since its got something to do with bird dogs it can't be all bad. Anyway I was wondering the reason for this action taken by the FDSB.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:56 am

I never had a chance to watch the show lot but I sure liked the way they did it compared to most hunting shows. They tried to show what really went on when hunting rather than pics of the people, birds, and little of the dogs actually working.

Thank you for starting a new thread for this. Helps to keep the topics on course.

Ezzy

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:15 am

Here we go again.. It stems back a long way... If you do enough research on Llewellin setters you will find out.. It seems that this is never going to correct itself......

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:29 am

I don't think that the registration of just those two dogs was "pulled". Mr. King and the FDSB had a serious falling out of some sort. From that, Mr. King formed his own registry.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:16 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:I don't think that the registration of just those two dogs was "pulled". Mr. King and the FDSB had a serious falling out of some sort. From that, Mr. King formed his own registry.

I knew of the first part of this statement, but the last part? He did? What is that registry that he formed?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:29 pm

Look at the bottom of http://www.llewellin.com/Agreement-Gurantee.htm .

Following some links, you get to http://www.nationallsa.com/founder.htm that explicitly states that Alfred King is the founder.

Killer Instinct · Post by **Killer Instinct** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:34 pm

mountaindogs wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:I don't think that the registration of just those two dogs was "pulled". Mr. King and the FDSB had a serious falling out of some sort. From that, Mr. King formed his own registry.
I knew of the first part of this statement, but the last part? He did? What is that registry that he formed?

Al King started his own registry called "The Llewellin Setter Association"....Per the website http://www.nationallsa.com ...."Founded in January 1994 this national Association of Llewellin enthusiasts is dedicated to the preservation of this near-extinct breed of foot-hunting birddog. Members receive a quarterly journal filled with articles of interest to Llewellin owners including news of Llewellin competitions, training and kennel tips, Llewellin history and other exchanges of information between members...." ....This registry is now ran by International Progressive Dog Breeders Alliance locatedin Upton, KY (http://ipdba.8k.com).....

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:39 pm

Al King affliated himself with the IPDBA -

The information on Hank and Dash is not correct - to my knowledge neither Hank or Dash had registration pulled from the FDSB.

After May 2003? Al and Drenda King had all their priviledges suspended by the FDSB. It was a 3 yr suspension and had some stipulations for reinstatement that as far as I can tell the Kings have not complied with.

Ferrell Miller is in the same boat I believe.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:41 pm

hmmm. interesting to know.

FYI - I always enjoyed the show also. I liked the layed back way it was handled much like a real hunt. The issues surrounding the history and pedigrees of his lines really had no bearing on my enjoyment for the show. I would still have liked it if it was a cross, or any breed. Just a fun "realistic" show, not alot of high energy thrill music, and excess, just huntin'.

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:14 pm

Mountaindogs,

From my recollection Hank was never one of the dogs originally questioned by FDSB.. I owned a dog that was caught up in the question.. She was fine dog (RIP).. She was 100% Setter, rather you want to classify her as Llewellin or Russian\Llewellin.. I'll tell you this much about her and some of her offspring, I'd feed a kennel full of them like her any day of the week...

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:01 pm

The Llewellin world is really a funny one. The more you look into it the more confusing it gets. The problems with King as I have heard, relate to False pedigrees relating to "Hank" and the use of Russian dogs that the FDSB didn't recognize as Llews. I don't know what the truth is but I enjoy hearing the stories. If you want to hear some more controversy within the Llewellin world read about Joe Noe and adventures.

As interesting as the controversy can be its a shame that it overshadows some of the good stuff some breeders and trialers are doing for the Breed today.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:27 pm

The problem was not with "Hank" it was with his sire "Irish King Bondhu Ashley" and dogs bred by Al King after "Hank" became so popular - with IKBA listed as the sire.

Most recently llewellin people have been doing our part to train and trial llewellin setters in both AKC/AF field trials and NSTRA - have enjoyed a modest amount of success doing so.

Most llewellin people don't dwell on what happened or why it happened in 2003 - but prefer to press on with what we have in accordance with the guidelines the FDSB has supplied.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:57 pm

Well, honestly not knowing the final issues or what really went down, it is a shame for the dogs. Whether or not the breeders did right by their lines or their breeding practices, I can not say, and if I did know more I am sure it would still depend. And I imagine it is no fun for those that were caught up in it "after the fact" having bought into the lines, and falling in love with the dogs, not at all knowing about what was about to explode. That said, the dog sports remains ABOUT HAVING A GOOD TIME WITH YOUR DOG

I like the pedigrees and restrictions and all, think it adds something for me, but heck you could get and ILP and run a dropper in AKC and still have a whale of a time beating the heck out of some other dogs

Though I do enjoy hearing the stories and listening to varying tales... let them be civil and informative...
Please in today's charged political world - let us stick together more than we argue and defend our dogs rights to have these different venues

Soap box time, forgive me.

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:10 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Well, honestly not knowing the final issues or what really went down, it is a shame for the dogs. Whether or not the breeders did right by their lines or their breeding practices, I can not say, and if I did know more I am sure it would still depend. And I imagine it is no fun for those that were caught up in it "after the fact" having bought into the lines, and falling in love with the dogs, not at all knowing about what was about to explode. That said, the dog sports remains ABOUT HAVING A GOOD TIME WITH YOUR DOG I like the pedigrees and restrictions and all, think it adds something for me, but heck you could get and ILP and run a dropper in AKC and still have a whale of a time beating the heck out of some other dogs
Though I do enjoy hearing the stories and listening to varying tales... let them be civil and informative...
Please in today's charged political world - let us stick together more than we argue and defend our dogs rights to have these different venues
Soap box time, forgive me.

FDSB would register all the dogs in question as English setters just not Llewellin.. In the case of my dog she was originally papered Llewellin but her offspring had to be papered English. You are correct in saying that breeders should "do right by their lines".. It's only right for the betterment of the breed...

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:07 pm

What is the difference between a Llewellin and an English setter?

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:32 pm

Paperwork in most cases.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:14 pm

slistoe wrote:Paperwork in most cases.

Ditto

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:43 pm

Willie Hunter wrote:What is the difference between a Llewellin and an English setter?

If you research this subject,you will find that it is admitted that most of our English setters today have Llewellin blood in them.And remember,Mr.Llewellin could not give birth to a dog himself,so where did his setters come from?They came from English setters,and other dogs like gordons and at least 1 other dog that we dont even know what it was.If you did today what Mr.Llewellin did back then,your dogs would not even be officially recognized as setters.Now before I get attacked on this,I will tell you I now own 2 Llewellin setters,and have owned another in the past,but I will also tell you that in the birddog world you will not run across as much bull and hype as you will on the subject of a Llewellin setter.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 am

highcotton wrote:
slistoe wrote:Paperwork in most cases.
Ditto

Charles - You know there is more difference in english to llewellin than paperwork

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:34 pm

Edited for contents that did not pertain to the subject.

Ezzy-Moderator

BirdDogDesire · Post by **BirdDogDesire** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:51 pm

Is this the reason, that my Llewellins papers came back???

Came back twice. The pedigree is below.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1312

I believe she is related to Hank.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:14 pm

BirdDogDesire wrote:Is this the reason, that my Llewellins papers came back???

Came back twice. The pedigree is below.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1312

I believe she is related to Hank.

There should be no registration problem with that dog. Did the FDSB not give you a reason for returning your registration?

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:26 am

BirdDogDesire wrote:Is this the reason, that my Llewellins papers came back???

Came back twice. The pedigree is below.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1312

I believe she is related to Hank.

It may well be that you will need to have DNA testing done before your dog is recognized.As I stated before,I own 2 Llewellins that I bought last year.The breeder that sold them to me said he had to have his dogs DNA tested.I see some of Kings bloodline in your dog,as many Llewellin setters have, and that may be the problem.

dlfl · Post by **dlfl** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:31 am

If the parents have not been DNA'ed that is the problem.

BirdDogDesire · Post by **BirdDogDesire** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:06 am

that explains it...I do not think the parents are DNAed... the papers were gone for about a week or so....then they came back.

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:31 pm

Casey, Call the breeder and check. And give the FDSB a call too.

DNA testing is required for all FDSB Llewellins- it has nothing to do with King dogs being in Lily's pedigree. Also on the form check that you do have a litter registration number (next to the dog color chart) and that the certificate at the bottom is signed. Could just be something missing. Non-FDSB is quite an omission if you think that's what you're buying.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:17 pm

If DNA testing was not brought because of Kings dogs,when did it begin? DNA testing has not been going on for all that long?

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:19 pm

The FDSB will not enroll a litter if they do not have DNA on file for the sire and dam.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:22 pm

Is this for all the breeds?

BirdDogDesire · Post by **BirdDogDesire** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:45 pm

just found out I didn't have the address right on the letter...my mistake....thanks!!!

Casey

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:53 pm

I am curious as to what they are looking for in the DNA test.Since the original Llewellin dogs have been gone for so many years,how could you accurately determine any DNA results? What would you compare to?I have also never figured out why they ever allowed a Llewellin,English setter litter cross to be papered as English setters as it was documented that the Llewellin setter blood was not pure.Seems to me they knowingly tainted the pure English setter bloodline.

dlfl · Post by **dlfl** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Think I will set back and watch this last one. LOL

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:33 pm

live4point wrote:Is this for all the breeds?

Just lews i believe.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:40 pm

That is not correct - All champion dogs MUST be DNA'd.

There are several different breeds that require DNA and other stuff to run in their futurities.

Keith

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:25 pm

Wa Chukar Hunter wrote:That is not correct - All champion dogs MUST be DNA'd.

There are several different breeds that require DNA and other stuff to run in their futurities.

Keith

Keith you are right.
I thought live4point was talking about having to have your dog dna'd in order to get them registered. And i believe that is only for llewellins only.

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:26 pm

BirdDogDesire wrote:just found out I didn't have the address right on the letter...my mistake....thanks!!!

Casey

Hey good deal! I didn't think there'd be any DNA issue.

Live4point- So far I believe sire/dam DNA cert. is only a registration requirment for Llews. However FDSB requires DNA for other purposes too (ie field trials). Both are safety nets for the purity of the strain/breeds, and if the former requirment was a result of the king ordeal, then so be it. The mere fact that a dog has king in the lines doesn't make them ineligable for FDSB Reg. Folks can follow DNA protocol or register as english (I think) or elsewhere as llewellin (nstra, ipdba).

It sounds like your dogs got caught in the aftermath of the king thing.... That's too bad, it happened to many. Did you go ahead and register somewhere else?

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:20 pm

dlfl wrote:Think I will set back and watch this last one. LOL

I ain't even gonna touch it!!!
live4point--- If you want a answer for your question I suggest you do some long research on the subject

Dennmor · Post by **Dennmor** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:55 pm

Willie Hunter wrote:What is the difference between a Llewellin and an English setter?

This should be fun!

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:19 pm

Dennmor wrote:
Willie Hunter wrote:What is the difference between a Llewellin and an English setter?
This should be fun!

Yep and I'm still waiting.

Dennmor · Post by **Dennmor** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:02 pm

From what I've gathered there really isn't much difference!
You have a group of people who took a specific line of English Setter and started breeding within that line.
They came up with their own registry.
Their point is that they are trying to breed a better dog. Of course this "better" dog falls within the criteria they have set.
The English Setter folks have their criteria as to what makes a "better"dog. So you see, they too are trying to beed a better dog.
The good news is, there are some great dogs from both sides!
But they are all English Setters, right?

dennmor :roll:

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:26 pm

Willie Hunter wrote:What is the difference between a Llewellin and an English setter?

Bout 300 bucks

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:42 pm

Because I don't care to get caught up in the arguments surrounding the Llewellin, I would have prefered to disregard this loaded question.... :roll: "Loaded" simply because around here and plenty of other places, Llewellins are deemed mostly as marketing and hype, complete with high pricetags. In some cases the marketing may get ridiculous, sure, but the same goes for any breed.

And remember, to each his own. I have Llewellins, but that doesn't mean I plan on limiting my dogs to only Llewellins. I see numerous field bred English Setters that I'd love to have, same goes for Brittanys, GSPs, pointers, etc....

So the most concise answer I can and will give is: Llewellins are part of the English Setter breed but from the specific line consisting of only those dogs who trace back to the Duke-Rhoebe-Laverack cross and are registered by FDSB as Llewellin.

So yeah, not too much else is different but for the paperwork (pedigree, registration) because Llewellins are English Setters and many field bred ES's have Llewellin lines within their pedigree (albeit mostly generations back). Llewellins were always bred for the field, be it trials or hunting. So... I don't see what the problem is.

Chelsea

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:28 pm

First off I'm no expert on Llewellins. I once considered purchasing one and did some research on the breed. In doing so I formed a few opinions of them and I just thought I'd share.

I think one only needs to look at todays English Pointers to see the how and why this could have happened. Llewellins have only tainted the English Setter as much as Elhew and Guard Rail lines have tainted the English pointer. Or Excuse me Pointer.

Yes todays English Setters are in much better shape than they once were. Some would argue that they have overtaken the Llewellin as far as being successfull field dogs, but how much of that success is due to the Llewellin lines. And how much of the decline in field prowess of the pure Llewellins is due to a change in format of the trials. One thing you can be sure of though is that although English Setters have changed the Field Trials have changed but the Llewellins are the same.

As far as the "King" lines go. Which I'm pretty sure he bred all the "origianal" lines in purity and outcrosses between them plus a few questionable russian lines. Anyway without Alfred King everybody would be saying "Lou what ??"

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:06 am

Sadie__Marie wrote: As far as the "King" lines go. Which I'm pretty sure he bred all the "origianal" lines in purity

How does this statement jive with the fact that he was unable to reconcile his breeding records with the DNA records to satisfy FDSB?

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:45 am

slistoe I realize my mistake in using the word pure. As this is in debate. I don't wish to debate it. Why should I when King himself made it publicly known that it wasn't nothing more than a pissing contest between FDSB and himself that wasn't worth pursuing.

I was actually going to edit as I wasn't thinking of the Duke-Rhoebe-Laverack that rocklews mentions but rather the lines of Bondhu, Gladstone, Bomber, Royacelle, and Blizzard that I was thinking of. I parenthesized "original" because all of the above are not likely to be original lines since Llewellins have been around since the 1500's. My point being though was that few have done more for the breed over the last 40 years or so than Alfred King.

Everybody loves picking fights with the biggest guy in the bar. Just because the big guy quits showing up at the bar doesn't make him a dirty fighter.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:44 am

I believe you are confusing the Laverack dogs with the Llewellins,Mr.Llewellin was breeding dogs in the late 1800's,not 1500's.He used some Laverack blood but also added other dogs to start his own strain of dogs.Is there any other bird dog with the aura of mystery as the Llewellin.I posed the previous questions,not to get anyone riled up,but to get at the truth,which can be hard to come by concerning the Llewellins.My hunting buddy an I have had many conversations about this same subject.If you notice,the questions I posed about the DNA,as to what is looked for,and what it is compared to have not yet been answered.Maybe no one knows,or just aint tellin? I have heard rumours as to why the King dogs lost registration,but I dont know what is and isn't true.Let me pose this question-Say you had a kennel of nothing but English pointers,that you have been breeding back and forth for decades,what would a DNA test on your dogs show other than the fact that they were English pointers, as the same blood has been mixed around many times in your breeding? For those that have followed the King kennel breeding over the years,do any of you remember them raising Gordon setters for a while? What happened with that deal?

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:01 am

live4point wrote:I believe you are confusing the Laverack dogs with the Llewellins,Mr.Llewellin was breeding dogs in the late 1800's,not 1500's.

My bad confused the dates not the dogs. Also I believe Edward Laverack was breeding dogs in the 1800's as well.

Are there lines other than the Gladstone, Bomber, Bondhu, Blizzard, and Royacelle. If so and rather or not King bred/breeds them I do not know. Rather or not these lines are line-bred on Mr. Llewellins first dogs and considered original lines I doubt.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:49 am

"To be registered in the Field Dog Stud Book as a Llewellin a dog must have no ancestors who do not trace to Field's Duke, Statter's Rhoebe, a Laverack (any Laverack) with the only exception to that being Armstrong's Old Kate from whom the Gleam blood comes and who during her lifetime was not considered a Llewellin but when it was desired to take in the Gleam descendants, it was belatedly announced that Armstrong's Old Kate was a sister of Field's Duke. Llewellin's kennel manager purchased Kate for Llewellin and when he was in this country on a trip and when asked if Kate was a Llewellin replied "I have my doubts". Llewellin himself never claimed Llewellin status for Kate. So the technical answer is that a llewellin is a dog all of whose ancestors must trace only to the Duke-Rhoebe-Laverack cross or to that cross and Armstrong's Old Kate. Remember though that such definition is not known by the general public and throughout the world the term Llewellin is often used to mean a field type Setter as distinguished from a bench type or show dog Setter, in other words a field type English Setter." Herb Anderson 2009

There has been another erroneous statement made - Llewellins are recognized by the Field Dog Stud Book and have been since 1902 - whether you want to call it a strain or a breed is up to the individual - but llewellins have been bred in their own gene pool for better than 100 yrs. It was only after 2003 that the IPDBA and NSTRA registeries recognized llewellin setters.

There are taints/allegations of cross breeding/mistakes/misrepresentations on every breed of pointing dog in the country.

So, how many times are we gonna beat this dead horse?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:02 am

Remember though that such definition is not known by the general public and throughout the world the term Llewellin is often used to mean a field type Setter as distinguished from a bench type or show dog Setter, in other words a field type English Setter

Here in our area, the term LLewellin has been used to designate good walking hunting dogs while the field trial type of dog has always been English Setter. I think most people agree they are two strains that go back to two different breeders of the past. However, today many people claim and maybe right that their dog is a Llewellin much like a statis symbol.

Ezzy

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:18 am

Although, most llewellins that are field trialled are in walking venues - llewellins are capable horseback dogs too. Just last week I ran two in the Texas Shooting Dog Championship - Sunday I may be heading up to Oklahoma to run 4 dogs up there.

My llewellins and I continually surprise judges when we field trial - probably at first because they can't believe anyone would actually trial a llewellin - and 2nd because when they see them run - they realize they are pretty good.

Mac and Mali surprised a long time and respected red setter guy - this weekend. Tom Milam still remembers every find Tanner had in the Texas Shooting Dog Championship in 2005 - asked me if I was running him last week in the trial. He called Mali's divided find with Dean Lord's dog "spectacular this week.

llewellins are better than most people give them credit for - I have a wall full of trophies and ribbons proving they are capable field trial dogs.