breed of bird dog with the best nose?

[tommyboy72]

I was just curious if there were any studies that had been conducted to find out which breed of bird dog had the superior nose? I know there have been studies conducted scientifically proving that the bloodhound has the best nose in the dog world overall or at least the most scent receptacles of any other breed and that the border collie is overall the most intelligent dog but I would just like to know if any studies had been done on bird dogs specifically to scientifically prove which breed had the keenest sense of smell? If this has been discussed before I am sorry for bringing it up again and if someone could direct me to the old topic I would like to read up on it and if not then there seem to be many intelligent gentlemen and ladies on this site who seem to have a wealth of scientific knowledge when it comes to breeding, genetics, training, etc. so I was hoping someone might know about any studies that have been conducted like this and where I could review the results. Thanks for replying in advance.

[h.q.s]

I guess you can't really put that study to the test. Correct me if I am wrong, but they cannot test every single dog in the world to test how good it's nose is too. Like the Bordie Collie being most intelligent, out of the dogs tested that one dog probably was, and they didn't test all dogs. Maybe they tested all breeds, but I have seen dumb GSP's and msart ones, and ones with bad noses and ones with good noses, so that could't tell you much if you just studied the breed.... that's just my thoughts on it.

It would be interesting to know the facts though.

[BirdDogDesire]

I was just curious if there were any studies that had been conducted to find out which breed of bird dog had the superior nose? I know there have been studies conducted scientifically proving that the bloodhound has the best nose in the dog world overall or at least the most scent receptacles of any other breed and that the border collie is overall the most intelligent dog but I would just like to know if any studies had been done on bird dogs specifically to scientifically prove which breed had the keenest sense of smell? If this has been discussed before I am sorry for bringing it up again and if someone could direct me to the old topic I would like to read up on it and if not then there seem to be many intelligent gentlemen and ladies on this site who seem to have a wealth of scientific knowledge when it comes to breeding, genetics, training, etc. so I was hoping someone might know about any studies that have been conducted like this and where I could review the results. Thanks for replying in advance.

Get ready for a whole lot of opinions!!!

[Duane M]

The only one I have read and it was around three years back rated the best, in bird dogs, as the GWP, second was the Pointer and third was the Viz. I dont recall past those three actual rankings but know which ones were not in the top 10.

[Chief_dog]

I put much more importance on brains and drive than nose. The best two pure wild birddogs of any breed I've ever hunted over had an average nose on planted birds. Both dogs knew where to go at a young age and did it with heart on wild birds, and would usually find four or five covies to one over some pretty good dogs in their own right. I've seen some dogs that could lock up a planted bird from amazing distances that couldn't find a wild bird unless they stumbled onto it. I think most of our birddogs have pretty good noses if the breeding is right. I'll take the dog with extreme intelligence and desire over the dog with an extremely good nose.

[h.q.s]

I agree with Chief Dog, what good does a great nose do if they don't have the brains to use it!

[RayGubernat]

This topic piqued my curiosity so i did a brief search for studies on the subject.

Didn't find much...as I expected... but did discover some pretty interesting and informative tidbits.

One such was the conclusion, by the search and rescue(SAR) folks that certain breeds, although they had superior olfactory capability, were unsuited for SAR work because they lacked either the desire to do it(bloodhound) or the trainability(beagle) to do it without distraction.

Previous posters have professed a preference for a dog with a good nose and the brains to use it, over a dog with a superior nose but lacking on the information processing side. It would seem that those who do SAR would agree with that position.

There was also a paper presented on using dogs to search out endangerd desert tortoises, for purposes of counting the population. An interesting prospect. I can almost see a hard driving pointer or setter locking up on a juvenile tortoise and when the researcher went to unearth it a covey of Mearns quail roared out.

I had read previously about dogs being used to search out truffles. The classic truffel sniffer is a pig, but the handler must allow the pig to eat a good portion of the extremely expensive truffles they find or they will quit looking(pigs are apparently pretty savvy about the eating thing). Dogs on the other hand, can be tossed a doggie treat for every truffle found and they will be perfectly happy to keep on searching.

RayG

[Sharon]

That's interesting about beagles. They are commonly used as drug sniffing dogs.

[bobman]

My dogs point box turtles often around here, theres no quail left so why not

[tommyboy72]

I completely agree with having an intelligent dog, I was just curious if any studies had been conducted on the subject of olfactory capability in bird dogs. I did some research on the net and did not come up with much info. so thought I would pose the question to the forum. In retrospect though you do not see very many hunting or bird dog breeds being used for drug sniffing other than labs. I have a close friend who trains drug dogs and know that ball drive or the drive to fetch and play with tennis balls has a lot to do with their training and I am not sure if this or lack of this has anything to do with the lack of using bird dog breeds as drug dogs. You figure from what I have gleaned from my police officer friend that pointing dogs of all breeds would be one of the better type dogs to use. I know that some drug dogs are so suttle in their alerts to drugs that the trainer has to watch them very closely. Some will sit but some only begin to carry themselves a little differently or they get a little excited but if you could get a pointing dog to go on point on drugs you would have yourself a heck of drug dog then. I sort of got off subject there, sorry about that. I am all for intelligence and natural drive to point birds I was just curious if any dog was better than another due to its physiological makeup. You know sort of a genetic advantage that had presented itself.

[Ditch__Parrot]

if you could get a pointing dog to go on point on drugs you would have yourself a heck of drug dog then.

Ya untill they started blinking or false pointing

[Hotpepper]

Very interesting statements on other qualities of a bird dog that are preferred other than nose. That is quite amazing to me. Not to get on anyone's toes but it all starts with the nose and then the many other qualities that make a good dog. Breed a super intelligent dog and it's offspring for 3 generations - that have a "poor" or "bad" nose and you will soon have a what?????????????????????????????????????/

A very smart dog that can't smell anything. IMHO it starts with the nose.

Trials are won with it and lost without it. In judging, would you love love to find a dog standing and the covey well out in front of the dog. Vs a dog standing over the covey and breaks at the flush as the birds are all over him.

Since this is a bird dog forum we are on here, I would say that the English Pointer has been bred a lot longer, 200 year or more, to be a bird dog and they may have the better nose. Mine are GSP's with great noses. There are so many qualiies in a great bird dog and the nose is somewhere at the top of the list for me.

Pepper

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

The expert consensus is that a pointing dog would make a hallacious drug dog because of its method of alert(with or without a 12 o'clock tail ). The expert consensus is also that Labradors currently make some of the best drug sniffing and SAR dogs.

Maybe, just maybe, we have fnally found the best utilization for the pointing lab??

Obviously this post was stricly in jest. Please understand that I just couldn't resist>

RayG

[h.q.s]

I know a guy that has been wanting to get out of the bird dog business and do more drug detection. From what I know he has German Shepards and Labs.

[ezzy333]

Very interesting statements on other qualities of a bird dog that are preferred other than nose. That is quite amazing to me. Not to get on anyone's toes but it all starts with the nose and then the many other qualities that make a good dog. Breed a super intelligent dog and it's offspring for 3 generations - that have a "poor" or "bad" nose and you will soon have a what?????????????????????????????????????/

A very smart dog that can't smell anything. IMHO it starts with the nose.

Trials are won with it and lost without it. In judging, would you love love to find a dog standing and the covey well out in front of the dog. Vs a dog standing over the covey and breaks at the flush as the birds are all over him.

Since this is a bird dog forum we are on here, I would say that the English Pointer has been bred a lot longer, 200 year or more, to be a bird dog and they may have the better nose. Mine are GSP's with great noses. There are so many qualiies in a great bird dog and the nose is somewhere at the top of the list for me.

Pepper

There is some evidence that most hunting dogs have about the same smelling capabilities but the biggest difference is how they use or process the info they receive. I think there are a rare exception to that but do agree that how the dog reacts to the scent it receives is the biggest difference in our dogs. And I think that is where most of the people are coming from.

JMO
Ezzy

[Duane M]

I put much more importance on brains and drive than nose. The best two pure wild birddogs of any breed I've ever hunted over had an average nose on planted birds. Both dogs knew where to go at a young age and did it with heart on wild birds, and would usually find four or five covies to one over some pretty good dogs in their own right. I've seen some dogs that could lock up a planted bird from amazing distances that couldn't find a wild bird unless they stumbled onto it. I think most of our birddogs have pretty good noses if the breeding is right. I'll take the dog with extreme intelligence and desire over the dog with an extremely good nose.

REAL GOOD point Dave. You and I both have seen the dog with the chokebore nose and the addled brain as well as the Einstein with the chronic nasal infection over the years. That good nose does zip without the brains to back it up. Lord knows I seen some that had a nose that could smell a lady bug fart from a mile off but had the intelligence that lady bug had. Consequently the lady bug always got away . I know some brag on a certain line as having the best nose, problem is the vast majority of that line also have scatter brains.

[tommyboy72]

My buddy trains labs, shepards, malinois, and even mutts but he only owns malinois' himself. I just wanted to know if there was scientific evidence of one breed smelling better than another in the bird dog world, Everyone knows that bloodhounds have the best nose in the dog world overall ,according to the animal planet shows I have seen they even have more scent receptacles than all other breeds of dogs. I was just wondering if there were studies validating the scenting ability of one breed over another with bird dogs. I did think it was interesting that someone had brought up the fact that some bloodlines in some breeds supposedly had better noses than other lines. I did not even think of that scenario.

[h.q.s]

what good does a great nose do if they don't have the brains to use it!

I'll agree, and what good is intelligence if a dog doesn't have a good nose. IMO you need both.

True. But, if a dog has fair or average nose and is very intelligent I would think you have a better dog on your hands because he may not smell the bird from several yards away and might not be the best at tracking dead game but could do everything else with more ease than a "dumb" dog because he may smell a bird but if he has no intelligence most likey he will crowd the bird anyway because he hasn't figured out that when he tries to bust in the bird will get away.

I personally want both too, but if it came down to it and I had to choose one, I would want an intelligent dog.

[zachz]

just an observation but I have a 11 month GSP that hunts and great at it, and a five year Golden we adopted and have had for 5 months that does not hunt. I honestly think the Golden has a better nose or knows how to use it better for whatever reason. When I take there rawhides away from them, I put them on the top edge of our gazebo roof, without the dogs seeing me, about 7 ft high, when I let the dogs back outside for a run later, that Golden can zero in, will just sit and look at the roof???? My GSP runs around the Golden like he saying what are you looking at?? I'm always having to hide them in different spots.

[Yawallac]

Pointers have the best noses according to a research paper I read some time ago. Can't find it now. EPs were first, Bloodhounds second, GSPs were 7th or 8th, can't remember. I would guess that the differences among the top 10 would be insignificant and I know for a FACT that I have seen a few individual dogs with noses FAR superior to others of the same breed.

The most consistently best noses that I have seen in Pointers were from the Attitude lines...

A nose on a bird dog is as important as it gets IMO. But I have seen some exceptional bird dogs that made up for deficiencies with desire and heart.

[snips]

I just got home from Tx and have had extensive talks with a huge cattle breeder out there about DNA that will tell him everything he wants and needs to know about a cow. He asked me why they are not pin pointing DNA on birddogs that can tell what you need to know about what a dog will produce. If Art (SFK) is on here he was taking part in a study collecting DNA on birddogs that will tell such things. Nose, style, tailset, ect. I don't know how much there is to this, but I know in a breeding program you can judge for yourself such things before doing a match on breeding, BUT, it may take up to a yr to 2 yrs old to determine many things for us that tell us if it is a dog we want to use in our program. Just a few thoughts :roll:

[R-Heaton]

Ross,,,, or anybody else in that matter. I heard of a study that was done within the past couple of years on a "dogs ability to smell". Two dogs were tested (US military bomb sniffing dogs) one had never left the states the other was getting back from Iraq. The local dog did a better job,, 3 days later they did the exact test again and both dogs were basically equal. The only thing they did in that 3 days was clean the Iraqi dogs teeth. I did the research and from what I have read the cleaniness of a dogs mouth directly effects his ability to smell. To kinda of sum up what a few of the article had to say,,, humans do not have the ability to really divert their breath away from their own nose, which effects our ability to smell. Dogs do have that ability,,, thats why sometimes when you walk up on a dog on point and he is breathing out the side of his mouth,,, thats what he is doing,, getting his own breath away from his nose so he can keep smelling the virgin air. It made sense to me I guess.

[Yawallac]

Rich,

There is an article in the current issue of "Field Trial Magazine" entitled SCENT AND DENTAL CARE. It explains the significance of teeth, the surrounding tissue and their relationship to the dog's sinuses, respiratory tissue and scenting ability. The article was originally posted on www.strideaway.com and Dr. Spoo's website www.gundogdoc.com

[R-Heaton]

Dang,,,, one step behind on passing on the secrets of the trade.

[Flush]

I think there is so much about a dogs scenting ability that we can't understand it makes these discussions difficult.
I would be sceptical of anyone using scenting "tests" trying to translate that info into actual bird hunting ability. For example if the "test" didn't use live game birds as the scent, I would say it's worthless for a bird dog perspective. Some noses will be more keen for picking up certain types of scents than others, not to mention the brain "alerting" to these different types of scent. Human sight is probably the closest thing we can understand to dogs noses. Some humans have inferior long distance vision but superior close range vision. Some color blind humans (like me) can't distinguish certain colors from others as well as "normal" people, but we can actually see certain colors and shades better (do some research on the military using color bling soliders to do recon work in WWII to detect camouflaged German anti-aircraft weapons).

Labs may smell, and more importantly react, to cocaine better than Pointers, but it may be the opposite for game birds.

I think when most people talk about that dog has a great nose, what the usually mean is that they have great bird finding ability. It's the whole package: Is their nose detecting the scent? Does their brain react to the scent they are getting? How do they handle the birds after the brain makes the connection? Do they look in likely places to begin with?

Some dogs DO consistently produce more birds than other dogs in the exact same conditions, the actual NOSE is only one piece in a very complex system of why that is the case.

All other things being equal, I want the better nose, BUT not all other things are equal. I want the dogs and lines that consistently produce the most birds however the heck they do it. Any "tests" we do on the scenting abilities of the breeds and how that relates to bird hunting are guesses at best. A better test, and even more scientific as you are testing the actual usage not what you believe is a correlation, is to take a bunch of dogs hunting or a simulated hunting situation (trials) and see which dogs find the most birds. People have been doing this for a long time, certain breeds have escalated to the top of the bird dog world (hunters and trialers both) for a reason. Whether these breeds technically have the best noses is really irrelevant to me, they find the most birds.

[Russmill84]

IMHO I don't think the pointer has even as close to as good of a nose as the blood hound. First off the blood hound has a larger nasal cavity..(Where Scent receptors are stored) than almost any other breed. Second the hounds ears play a key factor in their scenting as to block wind from scattering skin cells, or whatever other scent from the ground. Third, all those wrinkles are used to catch scent particles in the air, and trap them around the dogs face so to better smell them. These dogs are used for tracking scents that are days old. These dogs can detect as few as 1 or 2 skin cells on the ground, or floating around in the air! I believe if the pointer had a better nose, it would be the tracker instead of the bloodhound.Reference http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bloodhound

[tommyboy72]

Flush you make good points but what I was asking was if there were physiological, scientific proof if one breed had superior scenting abilities due to some type of genetic advantage over another breed. For instance in humans there were studies conducted on Inuit and other Eskimo native Americans to find out why they took the cold weather and withstood frostbite better than say you or I and it was discovered that they have a genetic advantage due to the fact that their blood vessels, capillaries, etc. enlarge to allow more blood flow to the face and head and other extremities in cold temperatures. It was a genetic mutation only common in those particular nationality or race of native Americans. I was just wondering if factors like this had been studied with regard to the scenting abilities of bird dogs. I was disregarding intelligence, personal preferences by hunters, bloodlines, specific dogs, the way the brain processes smell, etc. From what I gather on this forum and from the lack of information I have gleaned from the internet I do not think there have been many studies on the subject.

[Flush]

Yep I gotch ya tb72. I too think it would be interesting to see those studies, just for curiosity sake if nothing else. I think it would be very difficult and expensive to do such test accurately but none the less it would be interesting. You would need quite big sample sizes from a geneticaly diverse lines within a breed as its quite obvious there is a lot of variation within a given breed. My gut and experience tells me there is more variation within the major bird hunting breeds than there is from breed to breed.

I guess my point was regardless of what the nose tests showed, It wouldn't change what I look for in a dog or how I look for it, nose is only one component in the end result. While the breed vs. breed studies are interesting for bragging rights, I think what would be more useful for breed development is understaning how "nose" could be more accurately measured within a breed and then understanding genetically how to carry on those traits.

Russ, as for the bloodhound having a "better" nose even that depends on what you are trying to do. No question Bloodhounds have better noses for tracking, but do they have better noses for air-scenting Huns at 40 yards in MT in a spot the birds have not yet laid down tracks? Maybe, maybe not. A Bloodhound may be better at tracking a crippled rooster for a mile, but I have my doubts if he is so much better at smelling the bird at a distance in the first place.

-Flush

[Georgia Boy]

Here is something from a web site I found and I would like to read the article if I could find it. THE SNIFF TEST
by Larry Mueller
Outdoor Life, October 1999

Scent discussions seem to inspire estimates of how many million times better a dog's nose is than man's. Dr. Larry Myers, professor of veterinary medicine at Auburn University and inventor of a technique to test nose faculty, declines such comparisons. Breeds differ widely in olfactory ability, as do individual dogs within a breed. Also, much depends on how well we develop each dog's interest in using its nose. Of the hunting breeds tested, the English pointer has the most consistently superior nose. The German-registered Drahthaar is often a close second. Most Labs test average. The important thing to remember is that your dog is the odor expert. When in doubt, trust his nose.

[tommyboy72]

That was very interesting and insightful Georgia Boy. I was already a pointer guy anyway but it is nice to know just for the sake of knowing what at least one scientist theory is and what proof he came up with. I plan on sticking with pointers from now on but had planned that before you posted that but nice post anyway.

[Flush]

tommy, you are welcome to think what ever you want from the "data" presented and I personally think Pointers would be indeed at the higher end of a scenting list. However If you read what was posted carefully it's not clear who did the testing. I don't think the statement about the breed testing was from Myers work. Myers developed a cheap tester (called SMETT) that hunters could buy to test their dogs nose, mainly to check for health and to check out a dog before buying it. I bet you anything Outdoor Life got some of these testers and did their own very unscientific research.

Here are my questions:
What other breeds were tested?
How many samples from each breed?
Where dogs from only hunting/trial lines used or were these dogs found at the pound?
Where was this study published? My guess is this test wasn't performed by Myers, but by OL and I can guess how scientifically valid that was!

Here is another finding from the same researcher, Myers, published in a book several years after that Outdoor life article was printed that completely contradicts the data given in that snippet.
"Studies by Lawerence J. Myers, professor and founder of the Institute for Biological Detection Systems at Auburn University's school of Veterinary Medicine, have revealed a greater difference in scenting ability among individual dogs within breeds than between breeds themselves."
page 94 of "Dogs Best Friend", by Mark Derr

Here is the same finding from different researchers:
"Scenting ability varies more among individual dogs (Johnston 1999) than breeds of dogs. Issel-Tarver and Rine (1997) found scenting ability among breeds of dogs, based on the number of olfactory receptor genes per subfamily, has remained stable in spite of many years of differential selection on the basis of olfactory acuity in scent hounds, sight hounds, and toy breeds."
found here:
http://www.weedcenter.org/grants/FinalR ... Report.pdf

It's a shame one can't find this actual research and details on the web. My guess is the initial testing referenced in the '99 OL magazine was based on a pretty limited sample size test that OL did. I think to do this test right you would need pretty large sample sizes, and as far as I can tell no one has ever done this testing on a scale that would prove much. Conversely there appears to be evidence that when big tests have been done there is more inner breed variation than breed to breed variation. Just like most other bird dog characteristics when it comes to nose I would put more emphasis on the parents/line than I would just generic breed.


-Flush

[tommyboy72]

So Flush basically what you are saying is that some chihuahuas can smell just as good as some pointers and some shi tzus can smell just as some GSPs. It just depends on which dog you have in the sample at the time. I was a pointer guy before I just thought it was interesting that one study stated that pointers have the best noses. In my personal experience I have had a lab and now own a setter who have better noses than my 2 pointers I was just saying that I plan to stay a pointer guy. Just my personal taste in dogs. As far as some of your questions on tests were concerned I was a little surprised. In some cases dogs of a breed found at the pound can smell just as good as a hunting line of the same breed. I was interested in studies conducted on particular breeds no particular dogs or their bloodlines, the breed itself overall. So therefore it should not matter if the dog was a showdog, a hunting dog, a field trial dog or a dog at home on the couch. Do any of these particular traits associated with a particular dog make it have more scent receptors or give it a physiological advantage over or limit it physiologically compared to another dog of the same breed? I do not see how a couch potato GSP or Pointer has any worse nose than one out of Miller or Elhew lines like the ones I own. There may well be some house dog pointer out there out of a backyard breeder who has a better nose on it than both of mine put together, you just never know. The limited size of samples in some situations make it more feasible for the tests. The government, marketing firms, businesses, even scientists use sample tests instead of testing every individual in a test. Certainly if they were going to conduct this test they would have at least a 10 to 20 individuals from each breed. Just how big does a test sample have to be to please everyone? 100, 500, 1 million individuals? You did however make very valid points on which and how many different breeds had been tested. I found the same exerpt from the article that was posted on a GSP site which stated the pointer was 1, the GSP 2 and labs tested out average at about #6 I believe. So I am not sure how many breeds they had tested but at the very least 6. I also completely agree with you that OL is not a scientific periodical but it seems that whoever organized and conducted the tests would have to have some type of respect and recognition to get this test to be accepted.

Bottom line is we are back to where we started and there is no information on this subject. I do not rely on bloodlines a whole lot either. I happen to have dogs out of excellent bloodlines but that is because I got them from reputable breeders that I trusted and knew directly or knew their family for extremely good prices. The best hunting dog I ever had was a lab pup who was hunting and retrieving over water and land reliable at 9 months old. He was saved by me from the local dog pound. He had only retrieved 2 dove in september over land before he started retrieving dove over water on his own. He retrieved quail and pheasant equally as well in November and December and we never did lose birds with that dog around. Once I got him trained I gave him to a friend when he was about a year old. Something I regret doing ever since I did it. So bloodlines themselves are not that important to me but the fact that a pup comes from hunting parents is. It would be nice if someone would get a billion dollar government grant to do this research and settle this dispute once and for all. Heck they give them out for everything else, why not this.

[Flush]

TB72,

Actually you should do some google searches on "Lawrence Myers" and "scenting" and "breeds" and look at some of the stuff that is available on the net. While there are quite a few references to breed to breed variation being less significant than inner breed variation, There IS some evidence that certain types within a breed may have better sniffers than others, the example I saw was "pet" beagles vs. hunting beagles, and the hunting beagles did indeed have better scenting capability. It wasn't clear if the hunting beagles were born that way, or if they have been selectively culled

Also there was an interesting test done with all E. Pointers that tested the effects of scenting from diet as well as excercise. Interestingly there was a big difference in scenting ability due to diet and even more so due to conditioning. There is also evidence that "scenting ability" is a learned or trained behaviour, the more a dog uses it, the better it gets at it. Hence a hunting dog that "uses" his nose all the time may indeed be able to scent better than a pet.

These are all variables that can throw off your results if you don't have a big enough sample size. If you get mainly all hunting line GSPs in great shape and compare them against a population of E. pointers that has a lot of Show dogs who are out of shape your results could be very misleading.

It's all pretty interesting but complex.
-Flush

[Russmill84]

This is link has a great deal of information about olfactory receptors, responses. and genes. It is pretty up there in terms of understanding, but you will get the point. It is a great article.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... l/99/5/518