setter, britt questions

springpoint · Post by **springpoint** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:57 pm

I've been doing research about britts and setters because of there smaller size. I was wondering if you guys could tell me if one is harder to keep up the grooming than the other. I'm talking trial bred setters from grouse trial lines, not the big show bred ones.

also on ave. can you get either bred in the 30 to 40lbs range.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:26 pm

Both need the same grooming for hunting purposes. I trim the hair on the feet and shorten up long hair on other areas to keep the burrs/ice in toes at bay - more hair on the setter tail to shorten

Both breeds come in that weight bracket.

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:38 pm

for the most part the grooming will be similar, generally the coats are similar with some variation between certian lines. as said, both are available in that weight.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:16 pm

Get the brit - the burrs in that long, hairy tail are not worth the trouble.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:22 pm

Most Setters easily get rid of the burrs themselves. They usually have more style and better noses. Plus, Setters look like a bird dog, not a giant hamster!

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:25 am

They usually have more style and better noses

Gotta call BS on that one. I have kennel full of brits that will hunt just about any setter into the ground....in fact thay have! LOLOL I think you are predjudice against the Hamsters taking over the world Steve!!! ROFL

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:52 am

Kiki's Mom wrote:
They usually have more style and better noses
Gotta call BS on that one. I have kennel full of brits that will hunt just about any setter into the ground....in fact thay have! LOLOL I think you are predjudice against the Hamsters taking over the world Steve!!! ROFL

Dream on little dreamer! Setters rule!

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:14 am

I have to agree with Helen on this one. There is a reason they call them setters. Every time a Britt out hunts them, which is often, they simply sit down and refuse to hunt anymore that day.

Seriously though, I have short haired Britts and have never had a problem with burrs. That long haired tail will always have burrs while in country.

Flush · Post by **Flush** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:48 am

For the original poster, the grooming is very very similar. I have hunted with both breeds for many many years in habitat going from thick ruffed grouse cover in the North East to Mearns country in the SW, there is very little difference in the amount of burrs they pick up.

They are both good breeds but typically hunt in different manners. Some Britts have done very well in grouse trials but Setters dominate, and for good reason. If professional grouse trialers could dominate by running Britts, they would, but they don't. They choose to run Setters and Pointers because thats what offers them the best chance to win. Thats not my inflated kennel-blind ego talking, thats the reality of what happens in grouse trials.

You should have no problem getting a good Setter from grouse trial lines in your size range, especially if you stick to females.

-Flush

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:46 pm

It really just comes down to the TAIL!!! LOL Other than that, there wont be a lot of difference between the two breeds grooming-wise. Some britts are hairier than other and the same with setters. They both run the gamut from relatively light coated to full coated.. and either one can be shaved down pretty close for serious field work.

The biggest thing is to pick the breed you like best. Personally after 25+ years of labs, I want a coffee table. Im tired of tails that wipe out everything in sight..... LOL Im practically drooling over that litter of Irish Red & White setters, but cant bring myself to get a dog with a tail... For me, Britts rock!!!!

wbockman · Post by **wbockman** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:12 pm

Fireside wrote:It really just comes down to the TAIL!!! LOL Im practically drooling over that litter of Irish Red & White setters, but cant bring myself to get a dog with a tail... For me, Britts rock!!!!

Sorry! It's too late to dock their tails! LOL

Oh and who needs a coffee table anyhow? One thing about the IRWS is their hair is so nice and silky, burrs are easily removed. And if they get muddy once they dry they look clean again, you just need to sweep up the dust!

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:28 pm

wbockman wrote:
Fireside wrote:It really just comes down to the TAIL!!! LOL Im practically drooling over that litter of Irish Red & White setters, but cant bring myself to get a dog with a tail... For me, Britts rock!!!!
Sorry! It's too late to dock their tails! LOL

Oh and who needs a coffee table anyhow? One thing about the IRWS is their hair is so nice and silky, burrs are easily removed. And if they get muddy once they dry they look clean again, you just need to sweep up the dust!

Need? since when does need figure into anything having to do with dogs (or horses)? I dont need another dog anymore that i need a coffee table LOL What I think i want on the other hand is something completely different. I guess you and I need to talk

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:18 pm

ROFLMBO at Big Steve. Giant hamster. Now that is hilarious. No offense to any of you Britt owners. I just never thought of one that way but they do sort of look like a big hamster.

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:59 pm

Looks like no coffee tables in my future....

Thanks Wendy!!

wbockman · Post by **wbockman** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:31 pm

Fireside wrote:Looks like no coffee tables in my future....

Thanks Wendy!!

Yeah! A convert to tails! LOL

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:24 am

Fireside wrote:It really just comes down to the TAIL!!! LOL...

After having Brittanys and setters since the mid '70s, I'm inclined to think there's more to Fireside's tongue-in-cheek observation than just grooming and clearing tables. But speaking to grooming a tail and their clearing of coffee tables, I don't recall either being a real issue. My only logistical issue with tails was their tendency to get split in the grouse woods and bleed, as seen on the dog above, and subsequently paint furniture and walls. In my experience, split tails never became real health concern, just a nusiance.

Beyond that, the esthetic appeal of the setter's tail has been the greatest difference I've found between the big-going setters and Brittanys I prefer, in the grouse woods or out. And though I now live far south of them, the trial bred Brittany I currently own flows over the Appalachian hillsides and handles their grouse as deftly as the setter above did. He just doesn't look quite as stunning doing it without the setter's tail.

Setter or Britt, they've all been fine family members and gun dogs.

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:34 am

Rick I just love that pic of Duffy.........Scott

Prairie Drifter · Post by **Prairie Drifter** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:31 am

I've hunted with people and dogs from all over the US and if my experience is any example, it must be harder to find a good brit. Most of the brits I've hunted with I wouldn't have owned. I have not seen very many setters that I wouldn't have taken home based on their field skills alone. The fact that the setters are prettier and more balanced looking afoot, makes them my choice.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:15 am

I could say the same thing about gsp's, pointers and setters. The truth is there are great hunters in every breed and also some dogs that just aren't very good. I've seen brittany's out hunt the other breeds, just depends on the dog and your preference.

Prairie Drifter · Post by **Prairie Drifter** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:32 pm

True Jayhawk, there are examples of poor dogs in every breed so let me state that another way. Of the 25-35 Brits I've hunted with, I can say that only 3 would I have been proud to own. They were sire, dam, and offspring owned by the same gent. All of the others had major flaws (inherited or man made) that made them disfunctional as gun dogs. Of the 60+ setters I've hunted with, the only setters I've disliked hunting with were owned by field trial owners who let them run at ranges that exceeded their owner's training/control and allowed them to ruin our hunt just to see them at range. Those dogs could have been very serviceably gun dogs with training and control, the genetic component was there. Another way to say this is of the dogs of the two breeds I've hunted with, there were more poorly bred brits than setters by a long measure. The people I've hunted with has been fairly random, so I don't think that the human side made a difference here.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:48 pm

So true, if people would pay may more attention to breeding and then put their dog in the hands of a pro for training we would see a lot less of those poor dogs you speak of. I see more back yard breeders with britts than Pointers, setters and gsp's.

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:31 pm

I've had two Britts and one had course hair so she never picked up burrs, the other had shorter hair so she never picked up burrs. I'm on my third Britt now but she is only 9 weeks old so I don't know yet about her. I also have a Springer and she has always had terrible problems with picking up burrs that she can't get out on her own. So I would think with the long hair on the tail of the setters it would be a problem.

As far as hunting with Britts, my second has out hunted every dog in the field in three of the four hunt test she has entered except for the Master Hunters. That includes english setters, GSP, Vislas, Irish Setters, Gordon Setters, Weims and other Brittanys. Now obviously I'm am bias but the judges were not and this was also thier opinion(via conversation and scoresheet). My trainer who is a Pointer man said that she is a once in lifetime dog.

Gary

ScottG · Post by **ScottG** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:37 pm

Prairie Drifter wrote:True Jayhawk, there are examples of poor dogs in every breed so let me state that another way. Of the 25-35 Brits I've hunted with, I can say that only 3 would I have been proud to own. They were sire, dam, and offspring owned by the same gent. All of the others had major flaws (inherited or man made) that made them disfunctional as gun dogs. Of the 60+ setters I've hunted with, the only setters I've disliked hunting with were owned by field trial owners who let them run at ranges that exceeded their owner's training/control and allowed them to ruin our hunt just to see them at range. Those dogs could have been very serviceably gun dogs with training and control, the genetic component was there. Another way to say this is of the dogs of the two breeds I've hunted with, there were more poorly bred brits than setters by a long measure. The people I've hunted with has been fairly random, so I don't think that the human side made a difference here.

Prairie Drifter, just curious, what kinds of major flaws have you seen in those 30 Brittanies?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:03 pm

Drifter,

You are showing extra human powers when you can tell this from just hunting a dog.

Another way to say this is of the dogs of the two breeds I've hunted with, there were more poorly bred brits than setters by a long measure. The people I've hunted with has been fairly random, so I don't think that the human side made a difference here.

That has to be a wonderful power to have.

jayhawkj wrote:So true, if people would pay may more attention to breeding and then put their dog in the hands of a pro for training we would see a lot less of those poor dogs you speak of. I see more back yard breeders with britts than Pointers, setters and gsp's.

And then we find out that people who own backyard bred dogs and train the dogs themselves is the cause of the problem.

Gentlemen, you both have been mislead or are just attempting to get something going. There is little if any difference in the percentage of one breed being good hunters more than any other breed. And one of the real joys in owning a nice dog is the enjoyment of training and developing the dog into the hunter you like. I can not imagine traveling over the country to hunt with people that have such poor dogs, due either to quality of breeding or quality of training. After a few experiences like that I would be hunting by myself. On the other hand I have hunted with very few dogs that I didn't enjoy. Some needed more training possibly and some hunt in the manner their owner likes which is different than what I enjoy. But over all, I can think of only one individual that I just won't hunt with anymore and that has nothing to do with his dog.

Over the years I have found few dogs that have convinced me they did not have what it takes to be a good dog. And over the years I have seen some of those good dogs that needed more training(some were mine). But during all of this time I can not determine a poor bred dog or a dog that was bred in someones back yard from any other dog. Wish I had the power to do so but try as I might it just isn't there. And out of the many many dogs we have owned or trained it is very much apparent that 99% have the capabilities to be a good dog no matter what the breed or where it was bred. And it is also apparent that most of the dogs could use more training or experience but that has always been and always will be as long as most are owned by a working family and are house pets most of the year.

Ezzy

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:27 pm

Well said Ezzy.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:38 pm

Prairie Drifter wrote:True Jayhawk, there are examples of poor dogs in every breed so let me state that another way. Of the 25-35 Brits I've hunted with, I can say that only 3 would I have been proud to own. They were sire, dam, and offspring owned by the same gent. All of the others had major flaws (inherited or man made) that made them disfunctional as gun dogs. Of the 60+ setters I've hunted with, the only setters I've disliked hunting with were owned by field trial owners who let them run at ranges that exceeded their owner's training/control and allowed them to ruin our hunt just to see them at range. Those dogs could have been very serviceably gun dogs with training and control, the genetic component was there. Another way to say this is of the dogs of the two breeds I've hunted with, there were more poorly bred brits than setters by a long measure. The people I've hunted with has been fairly random, so I don't think that the human side made a difference here.

Be careful, the Britt owners are sometimes rabid and protective of their little dogs. Personally, I wouldn't want anything but a Setter or E. Pointer to wild bird hunt with, but I've seen good dogs in several other breeds.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:23 pm

I will stick by the statement that if you want a very good hunting dog, you better look into it's breeding, and it needs to be very well trained. If you don't believe that, well then goodluck!

Prairie Drifter · Post by **Prairie Drifter** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:43 pm

Ezzy, you're making much larger leaps judging humans than I am judging dogs! Further, I at least spent a good amount of time with these dogs to make this judgement. The thing I have seen about far too many dog owners in Kansas and the same may well apply to the breeding end of the dogs in question is; many of these owners have ever paid anything, or more often less than $50 for a bird dog. Illinois is a pretty good location to be looking for a dog. Much of Kansas is a different story. If you're not willing to ship a pup in or travel some distance, you may well be buying something out of the local paper from a first time breeder. Many of these dogs lacked the prey drive to make a bird dog, others had no point, and still others were more concerned with starting a fight than getting out and hunting. True, the owners of several probably couldn't get a ready made champion around a field, but the dogs they were sporting would never have made champion in any measure. The three brits I favored were as good a dogs as I've ever hunted behind. I didn't know the bloodline, but if I remember right it came out of Nebraska. I don't need to start a breed arguement, the originator of this thread wanted personal comparisons and I gave mine just how I have seen it. Further, I have sold pups to several of the folks that had had brits before and they have stuck with the setters since. It may be a local supply thing, but it's what we've dealt with in my neck of the woods.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:03 pm

Interesting turn of thread. I started with a Britt, then became a confirmed "setters for life" guy but eventually went back to a Brittany because the setters I was encountering in my new area were so much less impressive than the Britts. Reckon maybe dog politics are local, too.

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:31 pm

It's too bad I already bought a pup. I didn't relize we had such a knowledgable gun dog man here who could have guided me to the perfect breed, the perfect breeder, the perfect price, the perfect way of training and the perfect way of handling my dog in the field.

Gary

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:31 pm

Little did I know about the dog situation in Kansas or I sure wouldn't have gone there to buy several dogs from probably one of the best Brittany breeders of all time. And I can't count the good pointers and setters bred in that state.

But everyone has an opinion and that is how it should be.

Ezzy

Prairie Drifter · Post by **Prairie Drifter** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:47 pm

What's really neat to me is that there are three individuals on this board that know so much more than me about MY personal experience!!! Maybe these folks going to fortune tellers aren't so stupid!!! As I think I made clear in my responses is that this is MY experience. If you have other experience, I'll not try to tell you what it is that you saw. It's one thing to support a breed, it's another to be blind to anyone elses exposure to the same breed in their own context!

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:02 pm

Well drifter is right, there's to many people out there that don't take breeding hunting dogs serious enough. Ezzy I also bought my brittany in Kansas from a very good line of breeding (Nolan last bullet line) and couldn't be more pleased. The difference is we care enough to check the breeding, a lot of people don't.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:44 pm

Prairie Drifter wrote:What's really neat to me is that there are three individuals on this board that know so much more than me about MY personal experience!!! Maybe these folks going to fortune tellers aren't so stupid!!! As I think I made clear in my responses is that this is MY experience. If you have other experience, I'll not try to tell you what it is that you saw. It's one thing to support a breed, it's another to be blind to anyone elses exposure to the same breed in their own context!

Well said. Ticks me off too.

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:58 pm

Just seems very odd that you could come across so many bad Brittanys when I have a hard time finding a bad Brittany.

There are a few things here that tick me off too.

Gary

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:03 pm

That cause all the best pointers come from Oklahoma and Texas Ezzy.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:10 am

Hey Prairie Drifter, I have no problem with you giving your impression of the dogs you have seen. Some of these folks seem a little too defensive, as if their dogs can't stand on their own merit.

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:57 am

Slistoe, I'm not defending my dog I'm just saying it seems odd about the 90% of Brittanys he has hunted with.

It doesn't tick me off, that may have been too harsh of a comment for this conversation. I was just being a smart a$$, it is in my nature to be one 90% of the time.

I disagree with his opinion but that is his opinion and by definition an opinion can't be wrong so I will leave it at that.

Gary

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:30 am

dirtdober, it is impossible to disagree with his opinion - you have not witnessed what he has witnessed. It is only possible to give your experience to counter his. You have done that. But in the process you tried to say that he has not witnessed what he witnessed. On what grounds? You don't even have any idea of what constitutes a good dog in his eyes. I have seen more than a couple of poor Brittanys in the field, but the one thing about every one of those dogs is that their owner thought they were the greatest thing. What's more is that they saw my dogs in the field and are likely talking about the poor quality Brittanys they have seen folks in the field with.

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:28 am

I believe his opinion is that a person is more likely to have a good setter as opposed to a good Brittany. I disagree with that. So it is possible to disagree with an opinion.

Gary

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:40 am

Dirtdoper I agree there are a lot of great brittany bird dogs. I love the brittany for many reasons and have a very nice brittany myself. My hunting buddies favor the gsp, some are very good some not so good (to every one his own opinon). As a brittany owner I have learned to take some verbal shots (usually all in good fun). Being from Texas what do you usually hunt with your dog, quail and pheasants?

dirtdober · Post by **dirtdober** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:52 am

There's nothing but quail down here is South Texas. I am planning a trip already for next year to Kansas to hunt some pheasant. I've only hunted them once before in Colorado, Grand Juction area.

I've seen several good GSP's down here. I don't see to many setters around here so I don't have much experience with them but would think there would be some good ones. What makes a dog good is the amount of bird experience they get and some just don't get enough. The dog is not to blame.

Gary

Prairie Drifter · Post by **Prairie Drifter** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:29 pm

Maybe the problem here is that I stopped short on my recommendations. When looking for a working dog or any breed, don't be content to grab whatever shows up in the local paper sight unseen. Spend the time to do research on the breed and breeders, get references, and pay that extra amount to go to a breeder with a proven record with years of production experience and get a pup with the bred in talent that most anyone can groom into a workable field dog. I appreciate jayhawkj, sharon, and slistoe for their reasonable response to my reasonable responses. Those of you who want to put yourself forward as a smart a$$, you're not doing anything positive for your breed or this board by doing so. It reminds me why I quit posting on this board previously.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:59 pm

dirtdober wrote: What makes a dog good is the amount of bird experience they get and some just don't get enough. The dog is not to blame.

Gary

If the prevalent attitude of the owners and breeders of any particular breed are like this it will prevent the breed from progressing as a bird dog. The simple fact of the matter is that there are always dogs that simply don't have it. It takes a very experienced person to recognize the difference between a dog with undeveloped potential and one with no potential when they are a couple of years old. Either way, if the dog is showing nothing it is not a fine specimen of the breed - dogs fault or owners fault.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:18 pm

I guide at several lodges and see several clients dogs. Most the time it scares you when they show up with there own dogs!!! The thing I see most with the average joe dogs is they have no idea what there doing or what the have. Now that being said I might make remarks about there dogs but I try to leave them with either a training drill or a way they can better handle there dog. All are very happy to get a free training tip. Now I have hunted with several differnet breeds. Some breeds have good dogs and then less desirable ones as well. I don't judge breeds I just perfer Britts and always will. I'd love to own a setter with a 12 o' clock tail cause thats just cool!!!! I don't think someone can say that this state raises better dogs than this state and its tough to say a dog that runs to big is a bad hunter might be what the owner likes. Point is that to each his own ya know... I have a kennel full of britts bought from several different states and I know anyone on this board would be happy to hunt behind any of them.

Rob

Britts are Best

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:27 pm

There used to be a guy on here that liked to cause trouble & since has been banned.He made the same comments about GSPS out in his part of the country,they were all back yard bred & he never saw a good one & didn't believe there was such a thing.The problem is his part of the country holds some of the best in the country.I think once they see a bad one they pretty much make up their mind that they are all bad.There are good & bad dogs of ALL BREEDS just give credit where credit is due a GOOD BIRDDOG is a GOOD BIRDDOG period !!!

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:14 am

vzkennels wrote:they were all back yard bred

Hey there Ted,,,, what is "back yard bred",,,, I know you raised and sold a real nice litter,,,, was that back yard breeding,,,,,, I raised two this year,,, not sure what "back yard" means.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:44 am

Rich I'm only quoteing what others say to be honest I don't know what it means any more then you & in fact ALL my dogs are bred in my backyard.They are some pretty decent backyard bred dogs too,even if I do say so myself.The guy that said that about the GSPS is from the Idaho & Utah area.

Rich maybe this makes me a little slow but the backyard is the only place I've figured out to breed them.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:11 am

I was the one who brought up backyard breeders, probably a poor choice of words. What I'm talking about are the people who are breeding dogs with no thought of pedigree or hunting abilty, and then selling them as "hunting dogs". In my state there has been a real problem with litter farms or puppy mills. So the point is people need to look into the breeding before they purchase a hunting dog. I would think as responsible breeders and hunters we would all be in favor of that. I don't think buying a dog from the clasifieds without doing research is a very good idea but many people do it.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:24 am

JH before the internet all my dogs were sold from the classifides but don't use them anymore TOO EXPENSIVE & you can't hardly give a BIRDDOG AWAY in this state anymore.