German Pedigree Help

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phillipsgsp
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German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:00 pm

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what some of the abreviations mean on a German pedigree? I am getting a pup in the next few weeks that is out of my own breeding and on the dams side maily pure German lines. Most of it is Hege-Haus, Wasserschling, and Pottsiepen. Mainly all KS dogs, just do not know how to decipher the stuff that comes after the names of the dogs, such as D1,S3,S1, BTR, IKP1, VBR, WS, CACIB, ES, ICH,HDO, V, SG, MS, MS4,and HN. If anyone can help or steer me in the right direction to find out what this stuff mean I would be greatful.

Chad
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h.q.s

Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by h.q.s » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:25 pm

I don't know what all those titles mean either, but none of them are in my dog's pedigree... but just for the heck of it, I thought I would show you a picture of a female that is half Hege-Haus that I owned. Hege-Haus is a line bred for temperament & personal hunting dog. Not big runners, just sweet and intelligent, and are one heck of a bird dog. I guess that could be false or twisted around a little bit, but this little lady sure proved it to be true...

Image

Image


I guess that wasn't the exact info you were looking for... but thought I still could share.
Last edited by h.q.s on Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Birdie

Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by Birdie » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:09 am

It is good to know what is in your dogs pedigrees.

You can find more of this testing system here: http://www.nadkc.org/testing_nadkc_info.htm

Derby – Prizes I , II, III possible
The "Derby" test is for young dogs held in the spring for pups born the year before or in the last three months of the year before that. This is best described as a natural ability test in which the young dog's inherited abilities in the field and cooperation are evaluated against the DKV standard to show the breeding worth of the parents.

Solms – Prizes I, II, III possible
The "Solms" name is short for Prince Albrecht zu Solms-Braunfels, for which the test is named after. The Solms is for "adolescents", held in the fall (following the spring Derby), and is also a natural ability test evaluating performance against the DKV standard.

BTR – Bringtreuprüfung Bestanden / Blind retrieve of fox per regulations, Pass/Fail

IKP - International Kurzhaar–Prüfung
This test is held in Europe every other year in the odd years (ex: 2005, 2007, 2009), alternating with the Kleemann.

VBR – Verlorenbringerprüfung Bestanden / Proof of retrieving a shot and wounded hare or rabbit after working the track, Pass/Fail

WS – Conformation Title/ Weltsieger / World Champion Winner

CACIB – Conformation Title / Anwartschaft für Internationales Schönheitschampionat/ Candidate for the title of International Beauty

ES – Conformation Title / Europasieger / European Champion/Winner

ICH – Conformation Title / International Champion

HD0 – Hip Dysplasia ranking. HD-0 is HD-frei

V – Conformation Rank / V is Excellent conformation

SG – Sehr Gut / Very Good conformation

G – Gut / Good or Sufficient conformation. This is the very minimum conformation that dogs in the German system must have to be breed worthy.

MS/MS4 – Härtenachweis / Sharpness Test on furred predator of gamebirds. The “MS” designation is the “older” way of ranking dogs on a 1-4 scale. Otherwise you will see sharpness notated as "HN".

HN – Härtenachweis / Sharpness Test

phillipsgsp
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:55 am

Wow, thanks for the info! I am looking the the dams pedigree and every dog in its 5 generation is just outstanding. Is there any way of finding out what color the dogs are? As far as solid liver, roan, and etc.?

Chad
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phillipsgsp
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:59 am

Also, what is required of a dog to complete it's KS title and what does the KS stand for? I have heard that the KS title makes MH over hear seem like childs play, is this true? Thanks



Chad
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Birdie

Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by Birdie » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:51 am

KS is for Kleemann Sieger or Kleemann Champion. This test is named after Dr. Paul Kleemann, a huge contributor to the DK breed. Most dogs are from Germany, but you may sometimes see dogs from US, Czech, Austria, Italy, or France – that have tested in the system. The Dr. Kleemann Prüfung is like the championship of top Deutsch Kurzhaars – like a showcase. The average is always near a 50-54% pass rate. The dogs must perform with perfection, but again, this is up to the judges discretion and testing conditions may often be favorable for one dog and not the next. Sometimes, an even amount of luck as well.

Entry requirements for a Kleemann, the dog must have:
1) A Derby, Solms and/or AZP Prize 1. There must be two first prizes out of these combination of tests.
2) Verbands-Gebrauchsprüfung (VGP) with Prize I.
3) Conformation rating of minimum “Sehr Gut” or SG
4) A Härtenachweis/ HN
5) Verlorenbringerprüfung/VBR or a Verbandsschweissprüfung/VswP

The KS is not the same as a Master Hunt test more so in the qualifications. People who run these are likely more dedicated to one type of testing than the other and few have probably ran both to give you a true adequate comparison. A dog can only run 2x in any of the German tests. KS is pass/fail.

There is a way to find the color for each dog. All dogs ever born and bred in the DKV system are listed in detail in the breed book or Zuchtbuch, color included. This is part a fail safe in case puppies born exhibiting colors not possible from the particular mating of parents – the whole litter is disqualified (now, unless proven otherwise by DNA.) This may not be as easy for you to look up.

You can check here: www.worldpedigrees.com as Mr. Herwin and Mr. Check have a very extensive database started for Shorthairs. Most entries include color.

romeo212000
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:23 am

h.q.s wrote:I don't know either... but just for the heck of it, I thought I would show you a picture of a female that is half Hege-Haus that I owned. Hege-Haus is a line bred for temperament & personal hunting dog. Not big runners, just sweet and intelligent, and are one heck of a bird dog. I guess that could be false or twisted around a little bit, but this little lady sure proved it to be true...

Image

Image


I guess that wasn't the exact info you were looking for... but thought I still could share.
Not sure if this is the same as Hega Havs but I have a little black and white bitch that as some in her. It's actually in her name. Was when I bought her. She is the sweetest little dog I've ever met. She is sensitive too, doesn't take a whole lot of pressure. But one thing she does have is wheels. That dog can move.

adogslife
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by adogslife » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:27 am

The titles look good on paper but won't do much if the other dog, in this case the sire, does not have innate talent,health or good temperment.
All to often German dogs are bred to add something that is seriously missing or because it looks good ,paper wise,and when it doesn't turn out as planned and it sometimes doesn't, then the German side gets the blame.
I am surprised a pure German bitch would breed uot of the system. Has she been through the German system?

phillipsgsp
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:39 pm

Her sire and dam were imported. I know the genetics of the sire of theses pups as it is a son of my MH dog who is out of a MH dog And my MH dog is 1/2 German Blood (Odin Von Sandwuste, Busjahn lines). I am sure this pup will meet up to what the pedigree shows. I would not be getting a pup or breeding my dogs if they did not deliver.
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bondoron
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by bondoron » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:45 am

phillipsgsp those letters you see after the dogs names aren't titles really. DK's have to go through testing before they can be bred. In basic terms they must have conformation, do their hunt test and have the hips checked. So you will see letters and numbers after every dogs name on a German (FCI) pedigree. The KS title is a major accomplishment. However I would not take anything away from a dog with the MH title. That is also a major accomplishment, as is VC, FC, etc... Just different strokes for different folks is all.

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ezzy333
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:06 am

adogslife wrote:The titles look good on paper but won't do much if the other dog, in this case the sire, does not have innate talent,health or good temperment.
All to often German dogs are bred to add something that is seriously missing or because it looks good ,paper wise,and when it doesn't turn out as planned and it sometimes doesn't, then the German side gets the blame.
I am surprised a pure German bitch would breed uot of the system. Has she been through the German system?
I do not think for a minute that the German breeding is used to improve our Gsp's and I also don't think they get blamed for the faults that show up in the puppies. A few of the people I know who have Shorthairs seem to like the German breeding and a lot don't care for it. Kind of like some liking Rusty and a few liking Clown. They are all dogs no matter where their parents lived and all have their good and bad qualities. Just your personal preference as to which way you go.

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phillipsgsp
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:20 pm

Exactly, I happen to love the raw german fur/feather hunt drive and retrieve, not to mention the love for water. If you look at the breed standard for the AKC, it includes all of that, not just run 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile ahead of the handler go on point and look good doing it. Believe me I love that but I also love everything else that is supposed to come with the breed. I realize that those are not all titles, but the 101 KS titles in the dams 5 gen pedigree stand for something, As well as the MH titles on the sires side. :wink:

This is getting of track, I just wanted some help decoding German pedigrees, not breeding good bird dogs. I think I am doing that already. :wink:

Chad
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bondoron
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by bondoron » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:11 pm

Where is the dam pedigree at? I would be interested in seeing it. Sounds like some great dogs in her background.

phillipsgsp
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Re: German Pedigree Help

Post by phillipsgsp » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:18 pm

Right now all I have is some photo copies of the pedigrees from the sire and dam of my pups dam. Right now I could give you some names or try to scan them into the computer and somehow post them. Which would be a big task for me as I am very computer dumb. On the sires side 5 gen. pedigree there is 43 KS dogs and I have a 5 gen pedigree for the dams sire that has 30 KS dogs and a 5 gen pedigree for the dams,dam that has 22 KS dogs in it. So out of the 192 dogs that I have on paper 101 of them have KS titles. I think that is a pretty darn solid background of dogs.


Chad
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