breeders

[up-hunter]

I was wondering when you girls and guys were starting your breeding programs, how did you go about finding the female or stud dog that you wanted to make the corner stone of your breeding program.

[ElhewPointer]

I'd say first of all you have to have a plan as far as what you want to produce as a breeder. As far as finding a female or stud dog to start your kennel, I would say you get pups out of lines that you like because of traits you desire and you devolop your females and stud dogs they way you want them yourself. You have to have a focus as far as your end goal. You may go through quite a few dogs until you find your foundation. Once you've come up with a gameplan and established what you are looking for in a dog, then if a proven dog comes up for sale with everything you desire then you may want to add to your kennel.

The two things bug me personally when looking at a pup or a kennel are a kennel that are "fad" breeders. Someone who has some dogs out of this and that and just breeds to the last Nat. Ch., then next year you see them getting a pup or breeding to the next Nat. Ch. To me personally, it shows no direction and focus as a breeder. The second thing that bugs me is a kennel that has brood females that are washouts. If she isn't a good trial dog/hunter then why the heck are you breeding her. They do this at the race track(horses) also and I just don't understand the reasoning. These are just my opinions. Take them for what they are worth.

[ezzy333]

You use those females because of their bloodlines.

Ezzy

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Ya i'll agree mostly but there are alot of "blue Hen's" in every breed that for whatever reason dind't trial be it they couldn't do it or they always cycled wrong, or where always nursing pups who knows but not every great producing female was a great trial dog. Me I like dogs that get it done in the field but I have a slow really good meat dog that threw one of the nicest trials dogs I have. With me and when I have a litter I want it to be better than what I have. I spend alot of time searching for what I think is right doesn't have to be the whos hot right now dog it just has to be the right fit. My next litter out of my Gundog/finished senior I wanna produce true blue all-age dogs so I'm goin outta my own kennel and kind a dog tahts gonna throw what I need. I buy dogs that have what I like... If they don't turn out to have what I bought them for they more than likely get a new home. I'm currently on my 4th and 5th male dogs looking for a potential stud. The one fits in nicely in his place the other is still a stupid puppy. It seriously if your doing it right takes alot of work,time, and money to find breedable stock. IMHO

Rob

[BoJack]

ezzy wrote:

You use those females because of their bloodlines.

If those females are washouts and not proven in trials or in the field or woods,you would breed them because of their bloodlines???
Why?? What do you think you'll produce??

[kninebirddog]

for me I looked to dogs that were doing what I liked...Bird desire this is very important...The female is just as important as the male as to having the desire needed in the field

pick dogs that are well put together and do not put together 2 dogs that have the same faults ..
do not bred dogs that have issues man made or not I will not breed a gunshy dog period . if a dog has traits that you find to be annoying or extremely undesirable and you don't like it then don't reproduce it ...


I want dogs that will have the potential to be strong hunters and if you are breeding for a dog that will last all day ..form will follow function as a poorly put together dog will not have what it takes to last in the field

as for a pedigree is merely icing on the cake if the cakes no good doesn't matter how pretty the icing is it won't make up for whats missing

so yes peds are important but i don't care if a dog has the ped of a life time if it has faults flags or is noise shy it is down the road

[ezzy333]

ezzy wrote:

You use those females because of their bloodlines.

If those females are washouts and not proven in trials or in the field or woods,you would breed them because of their bloodlines???
Why?? What do you think you'll produce??

Why do you suppose 3/4 of the ads for pups read that the female is a sister to some Ch. dog. Bloodlines are what breed through and we have some knowledge of what to expect. I have found many many times that the best individual out of a litter does not produce near as good as a littermate that wasn't as good, again due to bloodlines. If bloodlines are not important then there is no need for a pedigree as the dog will only produce what itself is.

This was very evident in our rabbits, sheep, racing pigeons, and every other kind of livestock. I hear it all the time with the HD problem also. Breeders continually talk about how important it is to know what the relatives are and what the whole family produces. Probably more important even than any one individual.

And another consideration is that it is much harder to get titles on some of our females due to heat periods and/or raising puppies. Because there is no title does not mean they are a washout. Plus I don't think a dog that doesn't make it in a trial means it won't hunt.

Just some things to think about.

Ezzy

[postoakshorthairs]

I'll have to split the difference with you guys on this argument. I don't agree with breeding a "cull" female just because she's a daughter to this dog or that dog. If the dog has a lot of faults that make her undesireable I don't agree with pumping pups out of her just because of what kind of pedigree she has. I also don't subscribe to the notion that just because a female..or any dog for that matter...isn't a field champion that it's a "washout", some of the best dogs I've ever hunted with never ran a brace, and I've also seen a few "champions" that weren't worth a pinch of $%&* to hunt with. There are a lot of factors that can play into that...time and money, too many other dogs to dedicate trial or training time to...etc. So I guess I do agree that there are some people out there breeding females just because of who they are out of, but I believe if you take a quality female with great genetics that has all the desired traits you look for she will produce great pups whether you "prove" her or not.

[ElhewPointer]

I'm not saying that the female has to be a Ch. But it sure would be nice to see that maybe she had some derby wins. To me that shows that she had good potential as a youngster. Maybe a win or two at the local trial. That shows that she was able to handle being broke. Then you can breed her. I don't have a problem with a female being a heck of a hunting dog. But the problem there is, everyone's definition of "good hunting dog" is different. And to me if the are a "good hunting dog" in a state where there are hardly any wild birds that kind of throws up a red flag to me. Don't get me wrong, how a dog is on paper is very important to me. But just because a dog is a sister to the uncle of the aunt to the brother of the dog that was kenneled next to a ch. doesn't cut it for me. That is what I mean by fad breeders. A perfect example is Rock Acre Blackhawk x Elhew Katie Lee. Now that cross has produced some great dogs that have won championships at all levels. But to me that doesn't make a female that is a full sister to xyz dog from a different litter something I want to breed to. JMO

[kninebirddog]

Ok a little rewording here

the female should have what it takes to run a trial or hunt all day should she be put on the ground to run the real potential should be there having some wins does help...

if she is incapable because of lack of drive or other undesired issues, great papers or not she should not be included into a gene pool
and from dogs I have dealt with serious flagging, gunshy, weak prey drive, unable to handle being run at a regular pace for at least an hour most average weekend warriors hunt for at least 2-3 hours

You know the ads that just kill me are the one that are selling a female as a brood bitch...sorry a dog that is sold under that title is a HUGE RED FLAG says to me that she is worthless any place else..and if she is that great a brood bitch then why are they selling her...think about it

[Joe Amatulli]

I think we have beaten this subject to death! Elhew I don't think that it could have been said any better and Postoak "I believe if you take a quality female with great genetics that has all the desired traits you look for she will produce great pups whether you "prove" her or not." That is as true as it gets, and I will add that 60% of what the pups are is because of thier mother.

If you talk to George Tracy he will tell you about a dog (litter mate to Trilagy) that he owns that is better than he is, but is a broud bitch. She is that because she is that good and the blood is thier. If you have plenty of money and time you can pit and choose, but most of us do not. So you look at a bitch that has done a bunch of winning do your homework on the sire and hope to get a one or two pups from her. If those dogs work out you again do your homework and find a sire that would work well with that female, and so on. The key is you need to know what you are doing! As I have said before champions produce champions! If you want to rely on the exceptions I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. You breed the best to the best and hope to get better, but you may not for what ever reason. When you breed average to average do you really think you are going to get the next National Champion?

Knine you are so right why would you breed a wash out? I just don't get it some times, what are people thinking, that dog counldn't make it, do you really think she will produce something better than just another was out? :roll:

[postoakshorthairs]

Kninebirdog

That's what I'm talking about! I think the right dog with the potential to be great, if given the opportunity, will produce great dogs no matter if they play the dog games or not. I took in a female a couple of years ago that was a couple years old from a very well known line. The dog was basically a boot licker which I was lied to about (lesson learned). I called the kennel where she came from and the owner of this line/kennel told me how much of a dissapointment this female had been because of the dogs she came from and after he raised one litter of pups from her (at a year and a half old) was going to "shoot her in the head" but sold her as a "brood bitch" instead. That's the kind of stuff i don't understand..."she's a huge dissapointment but I'll go ahead and make a few grand off of her popping out pups before I ditch her".

Back to the original post--I agree you have to have an end goal of what dogs you want to end up with (style, range, natural ability) and find a line/lines that meet that goal. You may have to go thru several dogs that don't fit what you want to get the right ones.

[ElhewPointer]

Joe,

I guess I don't understand why that was directed towards me. I don't think we've beaten the subject to death, the topic was started yesterday. I agree with most of what you say anyway. Like I said they don't have to be a field trial dog. I stated that a great hunting dog is fine with me. Also, I agree with you that you take a dog with great genetics and all the desired traits you look for. The thing is how do you know if she has the desired traits you are looking for unless you hunt or compete her. To me it is sure nice to see how a dog handles wild birds, how they run with another dog in the field, how they hunt in different situations rather than simulated circumstances, etc... I agree with you but what I'm saying is, you need to do some extended work/situations with the dog before coming to that conclusion.

[postoakshorthairs]

Elhew,
I think joe was agreeing with what you said. I think we're all basically on the same page...don't breed a female because of who she is unless she's what she's supposed to be.

[kninebirddog]

Or better yet " Proven Brood bitch" in other words this is one that has had at least 1 litter of pups and the pups didn't amount to much so we instead of homing her with a pet only home lets sell her for more as something she should not be to get rid of her

i think this does fall very much in lines as to what to use and not to use in a program ...the dark side being just a person who tosses anything to have puppies
to someone who is making a good attempt to putting tgether a litter of pups that will make an owner happy

Another friend of mine ...when we were talking about puppies ...I asked him why he has litters

he doesn't breed very much at all...he said he doesn't have litters for other people he produces pups for him to pick from and ..lets just say he has some very nice dogs

(as for the beaten horse..i think that stems from other posts on this subject )

but nice thing is I think there is new light and new views which also helps new or even seasoned breeders to think about what they have in their kennels..always good to keep yourself in check)

[cgbirddogs]

I think it depends on who you plan on marketing your pups to. If your potential market is field trial customers (and you have a bunch of money and plan on losing it all), then in addition to the traits that make field trial dogs competitive, the female best have some wins on her. My personal philosophy in breeding is trying to produce a dog that I can hunt over in the country I hunt in 85% of the year: the desert. I need dogs that can hunt in the heat, with poor scenting conditions, have tough feet, and run wide if allowed to. Of course, I want them to look better than the folks' dogs I'm hunting with.

[Joe Amatulli]

Elhew I am agreeing with you and the beating this to death is from other threads.

The bottum line is you need to know what you are doing! Keep in mind that when you breed a national calaber to national calaber you may get some at that level from all the pups, but some will be nice hunting dogs. Like the stuff we can't mention it rolls down hill, so if you start with rejects, what do you think you are going to get, better reject? As is the case with George's dog, you need to know what you have, and say what you what about the Tracys they do know a few this about dogs. I am not to sure that the average Joe does. So the only way to really know anything about how good the bitch is, is her record.

[up-hunter]

Thanks for the info guys, very interesting responses so far

thanks again

[3Britts]

A lot of good stuff here.
This is what I did:
My first dog came out of two local dogs that had two areas of interest. First, they both got the job done in the field, Neither of them had ever run in trial or hunt tests but, they could both hunt and find game. Second, I was looking for a dog with Microdot in her line. I did this because I had seen him run several time and just could not get over the style he had in the field.
My second dog came out of Nebraska and had the pedigree that I was looking for. I talked to the breeder, the stud's owner, to others who had alot more experience than I had with Brittanys, I traveled back to see the breeders of the various kennels that I liked and made my decision.
My third dog was much simpler. I liked the dogs my trainer had and called him to see if he had a dog that he thought would trial well and fit with my males line. He said that he did, I said sold.
My male is still the best hunter I have ever owned. If its there, he will find it. My older female does the job too, she is a big running dog with a great nose who throws great pups (just ask those who have them). My younger female is showing great signs as a trial dog/hunting dog. She is a work in progress that just outran an EP in her last Derby. Two finds in the first brace to take third.
I guess what I am saying is to trust those you trust when it comes to dogs, look at the pedigrees, look at the dogs. If they have what you like to see in a bird dog and what you think will make a better dog, go for it.

[mountaindogs]

I think it depends on who you plan on marketing your pups to. If your potential market is field trial customers (and you have a bunch of money and plan on losing it all), then in addition to the traits that make field trial dogs competitive, the female best have some wins on her. My personal philosophy in breeding is trying to produce a dog that I can hunt over in the country I hunt in 85% of the year: the desert. I need dogs that can hunt in the heat, with poor scenting conditions, have tough feet, and run wide if allowed to. Of course, I want them to look better than the folks' dogs I'm hunting with.

I have developed an opinion of what I personally want in a dog and what I think the average hunting dog owner wants. They are not exaxctly the same so I try to look for dogs that fit both. That can live as a all day long guide dog AND live in the house, that have all the traits I have come to love.
There is often talk when someone breeds via frozen semen that "if the breed is improving why would you do that?" There are some traits that I believe are often overlooked by breeding to some of the top winning dogs without knowing what they were before training. A dog with a mild retrieving drive can be vamped up to love the game but it may have taken alot to get there. A dog with little natural point can be trained to hold... There is value in a darn good dog not owned or trained by a trainer. There are things I think that expert training and precise trial requirments may not actually always improve. It is up to the breeders to "notice" and not breed the only dogs that could be trained to win, but are missing this or that. I will use my DD as an example. His breeder outright said that he always FF his dogs and though they all retrieved a little he didn't really build the natural desire as he knew he would have to FF to pass the german tests. Although the breed is sometimes said to be a better choice for waterfowl work, our guy's desire to retrieve is much less than that of my GSP's. He does the job and likes it but he won't climb a tree for it like Katie will. SO is that important? I think so, even if I do FF train my dogs, I should not have to, to have a hunter, only to show that they can be trained beyond their obssesion to also be precise and near perfect. ( in my eyes anyway )

We started with a dog that was passion tenfold on birds, but not so much pedigree to speak of. We have changed into other lines due to minor health concerns and I am slowly developing an appreciation for certain lines that I think would blend well to make ideal birddogs. We are at the beginning of the road, but I see the conformation that I like (and it is a more classic look, not always what is winning in the show now...) and the playfulm gentle, and managable temperment that other lines are well know for, and the drive and instinct to point and hold as a puppy. Each line has it's faults too, so blending certainly could give me a dog with all the bads, but I have developed a goal anyway, stronlgly linebred on what I have now, but always the sky's the limit! When is a dog perfect? I have yet to meet one, but I will keep on heading that way, the way I see it.

[oakcreek]

Hey vegas, thought you might like to know that my bitch had her pups. There are 2 lemons, 1 orange, one black, and two liver. Pups are 3 weeks and already show good tail carriage , and good personalities.

On this topic being discussed, I think it is good to prove a female through some trialing. However I have seen a lot of dogs win trials that I personally wouldn't breed. If a puppy purchase is important enough to a person they should go take a look at the female to see if she fits what they are looking for.

[WildRose]

It's foolish to breed based solely on pedigree or on the performance of just one of the parents. Pedigrees don't hunt or run. No matter how impressive the pedigree of a bitch or stud few of either will ever reproduce themselves much less produce better than themselves.

My experience tells me that the bitch's contribution is at least equal to, if not greater than that of the stud in most cases.

Start with two individuals that perform at a level that pleases you with temperament, personality, conformation that are above the breed average; who also have pedigrees which are complimentary. Then you have a recipie for success.

Some people are perfectly content to have a litter of 12 with 11 throw aways, and one really outstanding trial prospect and for them the "shotgun approach" works just fine. I don't agree with that approach but I understand it.