Hunting dogs/Cover dogs

birddog

Hunting dogs/Cover dogs

Post by birddog » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:00 am

Time for one of Janets stories:

As some of you know, I am training my dog for the Master Hunt level. I have not steadied a dog in years and the old way is out, so I have asked for a helping hand on the new approaches. I'v been meeting every Monday with a friend trainer and he is teaching me and showing me a very easy modern method. To get to the point, this past Monday I drove to the field and the grounds were loaded with people. At least 18 dogs were tied out on tie out stakes, and others had dogs in their trucks. They were all Setters and Pointers. A pro trainer was down from Canada to do some training. I was intrduced to him and I asked if they were trial dogs? He said no, I train "Cover" dogs for the Grouse and woodcock trials. Now I have never, in all my years, which is many, heard the term "Cover? dogs or knew there were certain trainers who trained for this. After watching a few braces run, I determind the word "Cover" dogs is just another term for surpurb "Hunting" dog and I say this because, I felt, my hunting dog could run as big and hunt as good without the whistle blowing and constant handling I was witnessing most of the "Cover" dogs and handlers doing that morning..I am not one to pass up a challenge so I asked if I could brace my dog with a by Setter. In surprize, they agreed...The break away was awesume. Both dogs taking a straight line to the frount and moving. Once they settled down, the hunt was on. The cover was very heavy and unless you were tall, you could not see the dogs. Bells are used because beepers are not allowed in Cover trials. No birds had been planted, so this was just a run. We (my dog and I) went the intire course, changing direction, without one command. The only difference between the 2 dogs was Volt would work back to find me and the other handler would use his whistle to bring his dog around. Other then that, we ran with the big guys and walked off the field with head held high. To put the frosting on the cake, the Pro trainer said," that is one nice dog"!

These Cover dog trials would have been right up my alley.
I wish I could turn the clock back a few years, because there is much more I would like to do. I have always said, I was born before my time.

Janet

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Post by larue » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:10 pm

they have cover trials here in wi,I have always felt that wild bird trials are the top of the dog game world.
I am running my pup in the companion derby stake in beuno vista
this sept.This trial is on wild praire chickens

birddog

Post by birddog » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:34 pm

It was mentioned last Monday that there is a woodcock trial this Sept. in Wisconsin. I could get details for you if you are interested. In any case, GOOD LUCK in the derby stake. Wild praire chickens! That should be fun!

Janet

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:37 am

Those wild bird trials are bogus.....you walk around with a blank gun behind the dog. The only thing the dog has to do is point a bird to win. It is all subjective. There is nothing worth a hoot about a gun dog that is evaluated in those except if the dog points. There is no retrieveing, which every dog in the field that is hunted should do to hand, or the dog is worthless. There is no obedience. Nothing except following dog around with a blank gun and popping off a round or two at a pointed bird when it is pointed and flushed. :roll: :roll:
Last edited by versatileguy on Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by larue » Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:25 am

yeah you are right,a dog who can go out and find and point a wild grouse,and then stand to wing and shot is not worth anything.
A navhda or a hunt test with a bird field filled with game farm birds is a much better indication of a hunting dog.. I mean we all know the real dog work begins after the shot,how you get the bird on the ground is meaningless.
I cannot think of any other format for pointing dogs that uses actual wild birds to test dogs.
Here is a link to a covertrial forumhttp://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:02 am

There are several horseback trial formats that run on wild birds. the AF pointer/setter people have alot of them, starting on the prairies in the summer on sharptail, including that Chicken Championship in WI. The NGSPA has a handful, including the Sharptail Championship that will start next weekend in SD and a Quail Ch. that will probably be Jan. Oh, and there is that trial the AF people hold in Tenn., somewhere near the Opry I think, National something or other? Three hour stake, I know, and your dog gets its pic in a magazine if you win.

They are the best. But what DOES it tell you about a dog. Just that it can find and point wild birds. Where is the point in that? :o

Janet, your interest in the grouse trials is delightful. Why can't you just do one with your dog? It is only a half hour walk through the woods. When the grouse trials were started in Minn., all of us who participated, as handlers, judges, running the trials, were interconnected through friendships in NAVHDA, RGS, AF and AKC clubs, and there were quite a few Wirehairs that ran, including me with mine. One guy who did alot of grouse hunting with his, named Jeff Hintz, placed a couple of times. Those judges will put up a stub tailed dog, and you might meet some more friends. I say go for it. Sounds like you have already done one practice round.

PS These wild bird trials are the oldest trials we have. Some date back over a century. The first plains trial on sharptail, I am told, was held in Towner, ND. It is really something to come up on a dog and watch birds flush all around it. Sorta like something that was meant to be.

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:08 am

Wagonmaster wrote: Oh, and there is that trial the AF people hold in Tenn., somewhere near the Opry I think, National something or other? Three hour stake, I know, and your dog gets its pic in a magazine if you win.
Grand Junction where Ames is located is actually about 160 miles SW of Nashville, the home of the Opry.

Sorry. Native Volunteer in the audience.

Best,

birddog

Post by birddog » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:43 am

John, off subject but I will be at Lake Elmo Sat. and Sunday at the dog show. Perhaps you could look me up . The wirehairs show at 9:00 on Sat in ring 8, and Sunday at 8:30 in ring 4. Hope to see you or anyone else on the board who might be in the area.

Janet

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:58 am

Hey, that's ok, you should hear some of the other things I have been called. :D

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:40 am

Touched a nerve larue? What is the matter? Don't you run dogs with supposed "style and class" ? What is the matter don't they retrieve? Are they bird munchers?

Dogs that don't retrieve don't belong in the field. Following a dog with blank gun is in no way is an evaluation system to judge a dog's worth in the field.....bogus trials.... :lol: :lol: :lol: It is the perfect format for a poor trainer to market their dogs as some sort of "hunting" dog with a win. Yet the dog did nothing except point a bird to win. No retrieving, no handling, no water work....nothing that a good hunting dog needs. I have seen jack russels point, so what? If a dog points with style and class, remains steady though out the flush and shot, then will not or does not retrieve to hand....the whole experience is ruined. :roll: :roll: Leave that or those kind of dogs in the truck....got no use for them. :shock:

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:27 am

Well, count me out of this thread. Janet, that was a nice story and I hope you give those grouse dog trials a shot. You will find they are alot of fun.

But I am a little tired of the pot shots about this or that kind of breed or format. Like I said on another thread, I have friends in alot of them, and the people who really know bird dogs don't do this, they respect the character of each.

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:38 am

There are no "pot shots" in that post. Just an opinon of those "bogus" trials. :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Post by snips » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:46 am

There is no need to knock ANY venue that someone wishes to pursue with their dogs. It is all great for people to train and run their dogs in SOMETHING. Maybe you should go back to the Versatile board where they like to induldge in this type of banter.
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Post by MNGSP » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:08 am

birddog wrote:John, off subject but I will be at Lake Elmo Sat. and Sunday at the dog show. Perhaps you could look me up . The wirehairs show at 9:00 on Sat in ring 8, and Sunday at 8:30 in ring 4. Hope to see you or anyone else on the board who might be in the area.

Janet
I live in Woodbury, which is only a mile or so away. My weekend is pretty full though. Too bad, as I would have liked to meet you and your dogs.
There is a park reserve in Lake Elmo that you could run your dogs in if you wanted to stretch their legs. Plenty of wild birds in there too. Let me know if your interested.

Jon

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Post by TAK » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:10 am

snips wrote:There is no need to knock ANY venue that someone wishes to pursue with their dogs. It is all great for people to train and run their dogs in SOMETHING.
Ya! what Brenda said!

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:11 am

There is no need to knock ANY venue that someone wishes to pursue with their dogs. It is all great for people to train and run their dogs in SOMETHING.


I do not care what a person runs their dog in, but I am allowed to have an opinion on the format. :roll: :roll:

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:40 am

Opinion yes !! That is what we are here for. Watch the tone of your posts. They were borderline............."pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:54 am

Opinion yes !! That is what we are here for. Watch the tone of your posts. They were borderline
Borderline what? Border line you don't like my opinion? Who died and made you king?

Tone? So I am responsible for how YOU percieve the TONE of my post is? Get real!! :roll: :roll:

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:56 am

Grant didn't die, but he did make Pear "King" as far as the forum goes.

Since he is Moderator-King, yes, you are responsible for how he perceives the tone of your posts.
Last edited by Greg Jennings on Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jon » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:01 pm

versatileguy wrote: Following a dog with blank gun is in no way is an evaluation system to judge a dog's worth in the field.....bogus trials.... :lol: :lol: :lol: It is the perfect format for a poor trainer to market their dogs as some sort of "hunting" dog with a win. Yet the dog did nothing except point a bird to win. No retrieving, no handling, no water work....nothing that a good hunting dog needs.
I think if we step back and look at what versatileguy is trying to say ( even though you may not agree with the WAY he said it ) you may understand the point he is trying to make.

I Archery deer hunt because it's a challenging expeience. But you have some people who put out a timed feeder all year long and then come deer season walk out to their blind and shoot the deer at 7:30 am when they know the feeder comes on and the deer will be there. This is not fair to call yourself a hunter when your not really hunting. But they still run and tell all their buddies about the great deer they shot. If you shot a cow that way you wouldn't call yourself a hunter. So the point I'm trying to make is...

I think versatileguy is trying to say he doesn't agree with that type of comp. being referred to as hunting dog trials.

Maybe if they were called practice trials or something that didn't indicate this is what true hunting dogs do, then people who work hard to COMPLETELY train their dogs wouldn't be offended.

I'm not taking sides on the issue ( since I don't know enough about cover trials )just trying to point out my view of the misunderstanding when I read it. FWIW

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:14 pm

Exactly!!!

Then you have the minions getting offend by my opinion. Not unlike a bunch of tattle tails in the third grade. :roll: :roll:

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:18 pm

Jon, I understand what versitleguy is saying and certainly uphold his right on his opinion. However he has no right to go on the attack here...........and he did attack. We can all gain from each other if we express or ideas and opinions, in a calm and orderly manner, VG's approach plainly doesn't get it here........Now he can contribute or be dealt with, it's his choice.............."pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:22 pm

.and he did attack.
Please do show me the attack. :?

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:26 pm

"Touched a nerve larue? What is the matter? Don't you run dogs with supposed "style and class" ? What is the matter don't they retrieve? Are they bird munchers?"..............How's that?
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:27 pm

Below are all of VG's posts on GDF. Anybody see a trend?

SGJ

--------------------------------------------

Author Message
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:22 pm Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
Please do show me the "attack".
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:14 pm Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
Exactly!!!

Then you have the minions getting offend by my opinion. Not unlike a bunch of tattle tails in the third grade.
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:54 am Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
Opinion yes !! That is what we are here for. Watch the tone of your posts. They were borderline

Borderline what? Border line you don't like my opinion? Who died and made you king?

Tone? So ...
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:11 am Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
There is no need to knock ANY venue that someone wishes to pursue with their dogs. It is all great for people to train and run their dogs in SOMETHING.



I do not care what a person runs their do ...
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:38 am Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
There are no "pot shots" in that post. Just an opinon of those "bogus" trials.
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:40 am Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
Touched a nerve larue? What is the matter? Don't you run dogs with supposed "style and class" ? What is the matter don't they retrieve? Are they bird munchers?

Dogs that don't retrieve don't ...
Topic: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
versatileguy

Replies: 24
Views: 281
Forum: General Chat Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:37 am Subject: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs
Those wild bird trials are bogus.....you walk around with a blank gun behind the dog. The only thing the dog has to do is point a bird to win. It is all subjective. There is nothing worth a hoot ...
Topic: Words of Wisdom
versatileguy

Replies: 26
Views: 1883
Forum: Training Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:16 pm Subject: Words of Wisdom
For starters.....Don't believe the training advice you get from clowns on the internet. If you do some digging, you will find most of them have never trained a dog to any level of competence. They ...
Topic: Another Australian state falls
versatileguy

Replies: 34
Views: 542
Forum: General Chat Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:04 pm Subject: Another Australian state falls
So what if they ban canned hunts of exotic animals and whitetails? Anyone who does isn't really a hunter or hunting anyway. It is like shooting cows that come to the bell when it is feeding ...
Topic: G2
versatileguy

Replies: 17
Views: 365
Forum: Ratings and Reviews Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:27 pm Subject: G2

Topic: Video :: Training For Silent Hunting ..No Whistles, No Whoas
versatileguy

Replies: 8
Views: 928
Forum: Ratings and Reviews Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:12 pm Subject: Video :: Training For Silent Hunting ..No Whistles, No Whoas
You want a review from the no side here is mine.

A poor video. I purchased it. There is no real information in it. Just a few puppy games. Thinking that playing fetch games will get a pup to ret ...

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Post by Jon » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:40 pm

versatileguy wrote:Exactly!!!

Then you have the minions getting offend by my opinion. Not unlike a bunch of tattle tails in the third grade. :roll: :roll:
He is talking about comments like the one above.

You posted with the intent to offend.

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:42 pm

You got it Jon..................."pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:49 pm

--- A Public Service Announcement ---

In serious literature the practice was first documented by Judith Donath (1999), who used several anecdotal examples from various Usenet newsgroups in her discussion. Donath's paper outlines the ambiguousness of identity in a disembodied "virtual community" [2]:

"In the physical world there is an inherent unity to the self, for the body provides a compelling and convenient definition of identity. The norm is: one body, one identity. ... The virtual world is different. It is composed of information rather than matter."
Donath provides a concise overview of identity deception games which trade on the confusion between physical and epistemic community:

"Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings and, upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they—and the troll—understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.
Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling—where the rate of deception is high—many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation." (Donath, 1999, p. 45)

-----------------------

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Post by Jon » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:03 pm

My original post was an attempt for him to change his style and to give him a way to turn things around. But after checking his past post as Greg did it was obvious that was not going to happen. Sorry, I tried :(

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:17 pm

Touched a nerve larue? What is the matter? Don't you run dogs with supposed "style and class" ? What is the matter don't they retrieve? Are they bird munchers?"..............How's that?
That is not an attack..... Those are a series of questions. Unanswered questions.....but not an attack. It is only you who peceive it as an attack. I can not not, nor am I responsible for how you perceive some thing. You can tell me a color is read, but it is black. You will be offended because I do not see the color red you perceive. Though your perception is wrong, my pointing this out should not offend you. I would think you would have grown beyond the point of infantile emotions. :roll: :roll:

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:22 pm

V..guy I am way past that............Now don't push it. You clearly intended to offend with your post, plain and simple. As Greg pointed out you have already set a negitive pattern. "pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by sudiegirl » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:37 pm

versatileguy wrote:
Touched a nerve larue? What is the matter? Don't you run dogs with supposed "style and class" ? What is the matter don't they retrieve? Are they bird munchers?"..............How's that?
That is not an attack..... Those are a series of questions. Unanswered questions.....but not an attack. It is only you who peceive it as an attack. I can not not, nor am I responsible for how you perceive something. You can tell me a color is read, but it is black. You will be offended because I do not see the color red you perceive. Though your perception is wrong, my pointing this out should not offend you. I would think you would have grown beyond the point of infantile emotions. :roll: :roll:
there certainly are alot of people that are perceiving the color red that you say is black. certainly, we are all allowed to have an opinion, but people that use rude tones to express them usually do not have any real information to back their claims. i think greg referred to them as trolls. i call them bullies. so maybe after you beat up the 3rd grade tattle tales you were talking about, you could apologize for offending so many people or at least bow out of what was ONCE a nice discussion about a testing format that someone had experienced for the first time instead of making fun of it.

sudiegirl

Post by sudiegirl » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:40 pm

and by the way, i liked your story janet. good for you for trying something new like that, even if it may not be everyone's cup of tea. AND congrats on you and your dog's fine job as well.

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Post by larue » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:51 pm

I will give my opinon on why wild bird trials are the pinnicle of
dog testing in my eyes.
First off I hunt wild birds,not planted game farm birds,so at the top of my list in a dog is the ability to find and handle wild birds.
The handling of wild birds is something that cannot be trained into a dog,a dog must have the tools bred into him to be a good wild bird dog.Nose,stamina,intelligance,pointing instinct are all required for a dog to consistantly handle wild birds be they texas quail,ruffed grouse,or sharptails.
The only formats that test for these qualities are wild bird trials.
Any format that uses planted birds are a very poor test of a dogs abilities to handle wild birds.
The planted bird games test alot of qualities in a dog,but they will never test a dogs ability to find,point and handle wild birds.

versatileguy, max has 5 ut prizes,4 prize 1's so I guess three judges have judged his retrieves ok several times.
Blaze has all his retrieveing points toward his afc,ada,white knight
cal, gracey,eva have all soft mouths,hiedi has always gotten 4's in her ut tests in retrieveing in navhda.So my dogs have been judged by others to be good retrievers.

Interestingly enough,I have had very little success in the few wild bird trials I have ran in,yet my opinon of them remains high,even with my own personal poor success in them.
My apprecation of them is due to my success at wild bird hunting,
of rideing over a hill out west to find max and blaze,or ada or boise
standing up high on the next hill,and realizeing the distance that the dogs are pointing from to handle these wild grouse.
It makes you wonder when your dog is pointing a bird 1 foot ahead of him in a trial,what would have happened had that been a wild bird,can we say good bye?
You can talk about trained retrieves,or blind retrieves all day long,
and they are fun,but they show me nothing in a dogs ability to hunt wild birds.

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Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:48 pm

Look back and it becomes evident that VG does not understand what we are talking about and has no worthwhile info to add to the conversation. Like he said many people on the internet have never traained a dog and he should know as it seems he is one of them.

I don't think a thing he has offered to date is positive and there fore deserves to be ignored. Lets all give him that honor.

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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Post by pear » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:58 pm

Well said EZZY............"pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by grant » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:41 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Grant didn't die, but he did make Pear "King" as far as the forum goes.

Since he is Moderator-King, yes, you are responsible for how he perceives the tone of your posts.
Thanks Greg.

versatileguy, Greg is right and we don't tolerate rude posts. Feel free to disagree, but show other members the respect they deserve.

Grant

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Post by versatileguy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:50 pm

So now all posts that do not agree with the status quo here will be deemed rude and disrespectful. :roll: Yet BS about how walking trials are the "top of the dog game world" is not allowed to be challenged or questioned:?

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Casper
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Post by Casper » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:16 am

versatileguy wrote:So now all posts that do not agree with the status quo here will be deemed rude and disrespectful. :roll: Yet BS about how walking trials are the "top of the dog game world" is not allowed to be challenged or questioned:?
Janets first post was not intended to be open for debate on a persons personal preference on a trial format.

What I got out of her post was that she wanted to share w/ others that she found a new dog game that she found a great interest in. She also pointed out that her dogs were capable of competing in that type of venue wich made her happy that her dogs were trained for that type of format when she had not intended that training.

I have folowed several of Janets post and she is primarily a hunter first and formost then a trial person.

Janet go after it you just might have a winner in this new dog game. :wink:

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TAK
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Post by TAK » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:34 am

versatileguy wrote:"top of the dog game world"
So then what is the "Best or Top of the dog game world"?

I honestly don't think there is a perfect trial or test format. Many great and fun ones but not perfect!

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Post by versatileguy » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:43 am

This isn't about Janet or her discovery of blank gun trials. I could care less about Janet. This is about those who would say that pop gun trials are the"top of the dog game world" and try to misrepresent them as such....they are not.

That opinion has been deemed attacking, rude, etc, etc....yet the misrepresentation is allowed to continue. That is the sad irony of this whole charade. :roll: :(

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Casper
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Re: Hunting dogs/Cover dogs

Post by Casper » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:07 am

birddog wrote:Time for one of Janets stories:

As some of you know, I am training my dog for the Master Hunt level. I have not steadied a dog in years and the old way is out, so I have asked for a helping hand on the new approaches. I'v been meeting every Monday with a friend trainer and he is teaching me and showing me a very easy modern method. To get to the point, this past Monday I drove to the field and the grounds were loaded with people. At least 18 dogs were tied out on tie out stakes, and others had dogs in their trucks. They were all Setters and Pointers. A pro trainer was down from Canada to do some training. I was intrduced to him and I asked if they were trial dogs? He said no, I train "Cover" dogs for the Grouse and woodcock trials. Now I have never, in all my years, which is many, heard the term "Cover? dogs or knew there were certain trainers who trained for this. After watching a few braces run, I determind the word "Cover" dogs is just another term for surpurb "Hunting" dog and I say this because, I felt, my hunting dog could run as big and hunt as good without the whistle blowing and constant handling I was witnessing most of the "Cover" dogs and handlers doing that morning..I am not one to pass up a challenge so I asked if I could brace my dog with a by Setter. In surprize, they agreed...The break away was awesume. Both dogs taking a straight line to the frount and moving. Once they settled down, the hunt was on. The cover was very heavy and unless you were tall, you could not see the dogs. Bells are used because beepers are not allowed in Cover trials. No birds had been planted, so this was just a run. We (my dog and I) went the intire course, changing direction, without one command. The only difference between the 2 dogs was Volt would work back to find me and the other handler would use his whistle to bring his dog around. Other then that, we ran with the big guys and walked off the field with head held high. To put the frosting on the cake, the Pro trainer said," that is one nice dog"!

These Cover dog trials would have been right up my alley.
I wish I could turn the clock back a few years, because there is much more I would like to do. I have always said, I was born before my time.

Janet
Man vers. guy you are missing the big picture here.

Re read her post.

I hate to be the one pointing the finger but you changed the subject.

She only wants to excel her dog to its highest level and mabey looking for a pat on the back for helping her dog get to that level.

Moderators--I am soory if this post is out of line if it is would you delete it for me

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Post by pear » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:00 am

VGuy, this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, what so ever. I actually tend to agree with you on your thoughts about cover dog trials and the way they are run. Not every venue is for everybody and that is ok. What this is about is your condescending attitude, and approach to the debate. The board administrator and moderators don't like the attitude you have taken and the way you have decided to be so abusive in your crusade. You fully understand what I'm talking about yet want to continue the debate. Here are your choices..........Continue the discussion in a gentlemanly fashion, dropping the attitude, or be ask to leave, plain and simple. If you have a problem with me personally continue that in the form of Private Messages (PM's), you will not be allow to continue to disrupt here............Randy"pear"Bauman
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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larue
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Post by larue » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:04 am

versatileguy, I answered your question about my dogs abilities,or lack of retrieveing skill's with some facts,navhda ut test scores
which can be verified.I would be happy to post max's or hiedi'd ut test scores complete with all numbers,or better yet you go pay navhda the money and get a full report on max,that is Fc Shooting Starr's Mad Maxwell Mh.
As long as we are getting personal,tell us about your dogs,there titles,and what you feel is the testing/trialing format that appeals to you the most,and more importanly why that format appeals to you.
My one problem with wild bird trials is that they are rare, and
in the ngspa they take too long to run,as they can only run 6 braces a day,so in effect to run a wild bird trial I must take a full week off,plus driveing time to get there and back.

To janet, I remember a wirehair winning a cover trial up around sevens point about 8 years ago,He was a navhda guy.

I have to go load a horse,some dogs,and go run a horseback
trial at pine island, a non retrieving horseback field trial,
the worst excuse for a dog game that was ever created,the only thing that would make it stink more would be if it was on wild birds.

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Post by grant » Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:29 am

versatileguy wrote:So now all posts that do not agree with the status quo here will be deemed rude and disrespectful. :roll: Yet BS about how walking trials are the "top of the dog game world" is not allowed to be challenged or questioned:?
Fortunately God made us all unique with different opinions etc. People visit GDF from all areas of the world. For example http://www.myhunting.net/ Therefore, if you expect to be accepted by the GDF community, you’ll need to learn to respect diversity.

Janet simply told us what she liked. What authority do you have to tell someone what they like is bogus and BS? What someone likes is unique and sacred to them. Personally, I like the AKC hunt tests. Generally, I would see a MH as a dog I would like to hunt behind. At this time in my life, I don’t want to compete in events that the winner is chosen by a subjective process. I like having objectives. That’s just me. It’s what I like. No one has the authority to challenge me in that.

Not once did you congratulate Janet because she found something she enjoyed. Not once did you offer what event you enjoy. (FWIW, you can do so here: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1485 ) We know nothing about you other than every one of your posts is negative.

If you live your life the same way, you must be a lonely person. I can’t imagine that someone who continually “challenged or questioned” what other people hold sacred has any real friends (or wife/husband).

As for GDF moderators. They have my trust and authority. They’re volunteers who I personally respect and appreciate. No GDF member should ever feel like they cannot disagree with me or GDF moderators. We completely accept, respect, and understand diversity.

Please, just learn to disagree without having to challenge or question. You may disagree with someone’s opinion and you may challenge or question in a debate. Let people be unique, we’re running out of patience with your attacks.

Grant

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Post by gunner » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:49 am

Janet,
I enjoyed reading about your experience at the cover dog trial.
Even though I don't compete in those grouse and woodcock venues I certainly admire the dogs and the handlers that do.
Sadly your fine posting has turned into someone's rant. As we've seen on other posts at other boards, those individuals that enjoy displaying these negative attitudes and will instigate such hostilities have little or no experience in those activities that they enjoy belittleing.
Janet, wish you the best of luck with your dogs in any of your endeavors!

Here's a fine source of information on the cover dog trial activities.
http://fosteraward.com/New_Trialers.html

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Post by Jon » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:28 pm

gunner wrote: Here's a fine source of information on the cover dog trial activities.
http://fosteraward.com/New_Trialers.html
Gunner, thanks for the link. It was very informative.

Did I understand correctly ? "Cover Trials" are pretty much the same as NSTRA other than you don't retrieve the bird ?

You can “Mark a bird” 1): When a dog turns, spins, or swaps ends to track the flight of a bird.
2): When a dog, which is completely steady-to-wing- and-shot, when released after the work, goes in the direction where the bird flushed to.

You just don't shoot the bird so there is nothing to retrieve.


This is where I think the opinions came into play. If you were hunting ( for real ) and shot a bird but your dog couldn't find it and you lost it yourself, you wouldn't have the game to eat that you were hunting. Therefore, some people feel it is not truly a hunting situation or a hunting trial and shouldn't be considered as one. ( to each there own )

BUT, this type of trial may have come from catch and release fishing since you don't get to keep the fish. (Been going on for years ) People still have so much fun with the finding and catching part that they keep doing it. Are they fisherman ?

It's a controversial topic and everybody has a right to their opinion provided it is not intended to offend. That in it’s self is sometimes hard to do anytime you disagree with someone. Sometimes no matter what you say can trigger a negative reply but if given the chance to explain maybe understandable to a point.

I personally think the moderators here have been more than understanding and have tried to explain to V guy what was wrong with the replies. FWIW

Now that I’ve read about “ Cover Trials” and understand what they are I would like to think "cover trials" would be great fun since they open up another venue for the sport. The more people who are involved with a sport the more votes we have to obtain more public land.

Our population will continue to grow and our sport will continue to have less land if we don’t have a large enough group to be heard. So rather than fight between ourselves over something that really doesn’t matter ( in my opinion ) we should put more effort into pulling together and building the sport as a whole. This forum is a good place to start.

Janet, thanks for posting the topic. This was the first time I had heard of “ cover trials “ sounds like fun. Good Luck !

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Post by versatileguy » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:39 pm

Cover trials are actually the perfect venue to sell pups to unsuspecting buyers. The folks who run in these things try to market the pups out of these dogs as winners of "foot walking wild birds trials". I have had guys call me and ask about the things or the dogs in question. I explain that they are nice little walk for an afternoon or morning with a dog while you follow with a pop gun....as long as you pay your entry fee......these people are astounded. They were lead to believe that these are some sort of dog evaluation of hunting skills. I have had to explain what happens, and what the dogs are required to do in the things. When I point out no birds are shot, no retrieving required, and the dog that finds birds doesn't necessarily win beccause he doesn't have enough "style or class". The people are flabbergasted. They were lead to believe they are representation of a good hunting dog....not necessarily so.... :roll: They are wonderful romp behind a dog witha blank gun in the field or forrest....but the results really say nothing about the winning dog except that the dog pointed a bird or two....which is good, but that doesn't make a gun dog. There are other things a dog must do afield....like track and retrieve from land or water.

Cover trials are misleading and misused to represent....... :?

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Richard *UT*
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Post by Richard *UT* » Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:19 pm

Well great, V-guy I think we all have your opinion. I think you have made that quite clear.

:dontknow:

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Post by snips » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:17 pm

I am not real sure what water work has to do with hunting. I have hunted all over and water work was never involved. My dogs got in and cooled off, that was about it. I run trials that dogs are scored on a retrieve, so a dog really needs good retrieves. A retrieve, most times is a trained retrieve, as in most competition Labs, so what is the BIG deal? I guess if we wanted to test a dogs natural ablity they would add retrieving to the natural ability test, but it`s funny that they don`t have to. MOST dogs that get to any higher levels of competition or testing, are force broke to retrieve. I can see why they do not shoot the birds in wild bird trials, it would put a big dent in the wild bird population, so I agree with this. As I said before, I enyoy seeing people getting involved in any birddg format, go for it Janet, hope it is a great time.
brenda

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