Questions

[KALEBSDAD]

First off, HELLO TO ALL........

New to Pointing dogs, but not dogs, my interest is with GSP, trying to gain information,

Is it common to linebreed with these dogs, is extremly tight linebtreeding practiced, in other breeds, I have seen this taken to the insane, dogs bred 21 times on one dog in 5 or 6 gens

If breeding for field work, does alot of consideration go to comformation, does one strive for the best of both worlds, would imagine it would vary from breeder to breeder, but figured I would ask

In looking at hundreds of pics, one thing that I found very interesting, is how different these dogs look, color, markings, builds, head shape, and I have got to say, those large muzzled dogs.......WOW

I am guessing these things vary from bloodline to bloodline

I am guessing too, that hunting styles vary from bloodline to bloodline,

Is there a bloodline that offers the following qualities

High natural ablity
Eagerness to work
Trainability
Close range ( foot hunting )
Slower paced
Large body structure
Good choice for a beginner
Good family companion

If there is a blooline that offers these, are there kennels that practice responsible line breeding, and who might be good to talk to more about this bloodline

thanks to all who read and respond, if my questions seem crazy or dumb...... hey I'm new,......... best wishes to all

[ezzy333]

Welcome to the site. I will let someone else answer your questions but be prepared to get differing opinions from different people. If you don't get the answers you need I will try to answer them for you if you let me know. One of the reasons I am defering to someone else is I have Brits and I will let the GSp' people answer for you
I don't know where you are located but if near Georgia talk to Snips who is on this board as she has some great dogs that might be what you are looking for. But there are others too spread around the countryside.

Ezzy

[KALEBSDAD]

Thank You, differing opinions was what I was hoping for, the more the better

[hunt365]

You have just described hustler bloodline there are different lines out there that have the same qualities but I'm more familiar with the hustler lines

Top Gun kennels
Walnut hills kennels
Westwind kennels
These are a good places to start

[Ditch__Parrot]

First off, HELLO TO ALL........

New to Pointing dogs, but not dogs, my interest is with GSP, trying to gain information,

Is it common to linebreed with these dogs, is extremly tight linebtreeding practiced, in other breeds, I have seen this taken to the insane, dogs bred 21 times on one dog in 5 or 6 gens

If breeding for field work, does alot of consideration go to comformation, does one strive for the best of both worlds, would imagine it would vary from breeder to breeder, but figured I would ask

In looking at hundreds of pics, one thing that I found very interesting, is how different these dogs look, color, markings, builds, head shape, and I have got to say, those large muzzled dogs.......WOW

I am guessing these things vary from bloodline to bloodline

I am guessing too, that hunting styles vary from bloodline to bloodline,

I think you hit the nail on the head. These things vary so much from between bloodlines, breeders and individual dogs.

Is there a bloodline that offers the following qualities

High natural ablity
Eagerness to work
Trainability
Close range ( foot hunting )
Slower paced
Large body structure
Good choice for a beginner
Good family companion

If there is a blooline that offers these, are there kennels that practice responsible line breeding, and who might be good to talk to more about this bloodline

thanks to all who read and respond, if my questions seem crazy or dumb...... hey I'm new,......... best wishes to all

You should be able to find many options of GSPs with the qualities listed. Define slower paced though. lol. Some of these dogs can really move, some are a little slower. I'll suggest the Hustler lines also but even in the Hustler line there is quite a bit of variation in range, speed and size.

[Dave Quindt]

First off, HELLO TO ALL........

New to Pointing dogs, but not dogs, my interest is with GSP, trying to gain information,

Is it common to linebreed with these dogs, is extremly tight linebtreeding practiced, in other breeds, I have seen this taken to the insane, dogs bred 21 times on one dog in 5 or 6 gens

For a variety of reasons, we certainly see more linebreeding going on in pointing breeds than does occur in spaniels or retrievers. In the right situation, linebreeding can be very useful. Unfortunately IMO we have seen a ton of "paper linebreeding" going on in the GSP breed right now. These are folks, often amateurs but not always, who are linebreeding on target dogs they have absolutely no experience with. Since the primary goal of linebreeding is to replicate (or come as close to replicating) the target dog these folks have no clue what they are trying to accomplish. This doesn't mean they are necessarily producing bad dogs; at the same time we've got a growing segment of our breed that assumes that anything that's linebred is better than anything that isn't. I fear we are doing damage to the breed's genetic diversity as a result. Y

To me, anytime you see someone advertising "dog A, x number of times in y number of generations" that's a good sign people are focused on breeding great pedigrees and not great dogs. As a breed, we'd be far better off if folks would try to find or develop the next great sire rather than trying to conjure up the genes of some great dog of 20 years ago.

If breeding for field work, does alot of consideration go to comformation, does one strive for the best of both worlds, would imagine it would vary from breeder to breeder, but figured I would ask

Conformation as defined by whom? Show ring conformation or field conformation. You can have the greatest conforming dog for the show ring in the world and the dog be an absolute mess in the field; I see it on a fairly regular basis. At the same time there are winning field dogs with poor conformation that "get it done" due to an abundance of drive and desire; enough to counteract physical problems. There are enough field breeders out there breeding for correction performance conformation including good bites, toplines, straight fronts, etc to offer a lot of good choices for the educated puppy buyer. Of course we have the other two extremes; folks breeding conformation titled dogs that assume that correct show conformation equals correct working conformation and folks who assume that if a dog can hunt, or win a trial, it means he's got correct conformation.

To the rest of your post, I'd make this comment:

Throw out the idea of "what traits do certain bloodlines have/don't have" and find breeders breeding individual dogs of excellent quality that are proven producers of the kind of dog you want. Great litters are the product of intelligent, objective, humble breeders who have a quality female that they've matched up with a quality male known to throw traits that complement her. The best breeders in this breed don't need to show you a pedigree to explain what they are doing or why they are doing it. They can explain it based on what those dogs do in the field, and what they put in their pups.

Here's the question to ask to everyone you talk to in this breed:
"If you had to buy a pup from a line/kennel that has absolutely no connection with the dogs you have today, where would you go and why?"

When you talk to individual breeders about individual dogs, ask them "what's the dog's 3 biggest weaknesses?" That will tell you a lot about how objective they are.

JMO,
Dave

[Dave Quindt]

You should be able to find many options of GSPs with the qualities listed. Define slower paced though. lol. Some of these dogs can really move, some are a little slower. I'll suggest the Hustler lines also but even in the Hustler line there is quite a bit of variation in range, speed and size.

I can name you 5 kennels linebreeding on Hustler (at least on paper), producing extremely different dogs. Which proves the point that there is no such thing as a "Hustler line" any more.

We register 12,000 GSPs a year in this country; there are dozens of dogs that are better producers than Hustler (or Rusty, or Bossman or Slick or Dude, or whoever) in the country right now; it's just a matter of sheer numbers. Don't you think we'd be better off on finding those dogs, rather that trying to endlessly linebreed on a dog from 20 years ago?

JMO,
Dave

[KALEBSDAD]

Thanks, I am getting just what I was hoping to get, not only recommendations, but different points of view, and things to think about......

I will try to define what I meant by slower pace, ever heard the old joke about a young bull and an old bull standing on a hill, overlooking a herd of heffers.......

I have hunted with a couple of different guys and their dogs, both dogs where great but very different,

Dog one, attacked the field, was a ball of fire, this dog was flat moving.......

Dog Two, eased into the field, was almost graceful in his strides, was like he was moving effortlessly, was truly beautiful to watch... oldbull / young bull hope that makes sence

[vzkennels]

The last sentence was the Key "Young BUll -Old Bull" a young dog will go at it like a teenager an older more experienced dog that has a few yrs hunting under him has learned to pace himself for the long hunt so as not to wear out in an hr or so.Experience is the answer!

[dmadis8]

Was there an age difference between Dog One and Dog Two? Just wondering if maybe one was the young bull and the other the old bull.

I do hear what you are saying about being a little slower now that you explained it, and I think you did very well

[WildRose]

Slower paced and larger body type would have you needing to look more toward NAVHDA lines of GSP's or even pointing labs. Neither the slow pace nor larger body are particularly beneficial to upland work except in cold wet climates.

[KALEBSDAD]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond,has been a big help

[BigShooter]

High natural ablity
Eagerness to work
Trainability
Close range ( foot hunting )
Slower paced
Large body structure
Good choice for a beginner
Good family companion

I always get a bit of a kick out of these kinds of threads. Anyone can respond and there are few wrong answers. No doubt you've already been giving this some thought so at the risk of being redundant be certain you are prepared to explain what you mean by each item. For example, why do you want a dog with a large structure? I will tell you smaller GSPs appear to thread their way through the cattails with less effort than larger bodied dogs bull dozing their way through. Do you want the dog to last for three long, hard days of hunting? Some larger bodied dogs seem to tire more rapidly. Close range - If you have a dog that finds every bird in a field, stays well back on the scent cone and holds the bird until you get close will that work for you? Good family companion - is barking alright, do you want it to smile, is sweet but whiney okay? What tradeoffs are you willing to consider? Are you willing to trade off a slightly poorer nose for a slower paced dog? Are you willing to go through the "terrible twos" stage with a several months old, young dog. Would you consider a started dog to be a good choice for a beginning trainer?

Then remember while breeders work for consistency every litter is about like having multiple children in a family. Same mom & dad - but how can each one be so different?

[adogslife]

What do you consider "larger bodied" and "slower paced"?
A GSP is bred to be fast paced when hunting, but if you're talking about range then you would need to define that,as well.
A fast paced, wide ranging dog is a blessing in the field, but they need to possess intelligence and cooperation and be biddable.
I don't know why one poster stated that a NAVHDA dog would be slower paced. Is this a requirement for NAVHDA?

[BigShooter]

What do you consider "larger bodied" and "slower paced"?

I don't know why one poster stated that a NAVHDA dog would be slower paced. Is this a requirement for NAVHDA?

This poses the old suppositions that field trial dogs/lines are no good for foot hunting and NAVHDA dogs/lines only include dogs that are too slow to be acceptable field trial dogs. These glittering generalities are a bunch of hogwash.

[WildRose]

What do you consider "larger bodied" and "slower paced"?

I don't know why one poster stated that a NAVHDA dog would be slower paced. Is this a requirement for NAVHDA?

This poses the old suppositions that field trial dogs/lines are no good for foot hunting and NAVHDA dogs/lines only include dogs that are too slow to be acceptable field trial dogs. These glittering generalities are a bunch of hogwash.

No it comes from an understanding of the differences in the venues an what judging requirements they have. A close, slower paced, methodical search (which is what the OP is looking for) is not only accepted, it's preferred in a NAVHDA test vs, a dog hitting edges and lines at full speed seeking the horizon. NAVHDA places a high degree of importance on water work, and being as most NAVHDA clubs are in the northern half of the US their dogs are more bred for colder climates, water work, and cold water specifically than the average FT dog.

I'm not at all denigrating the venue, nor placing FT dogs either above or below NAVHDA dogs in quality. I just understand they are different venues where different criteria are emphasised and expected.

Large, thick bodies are condusive to to maintaining body heat. This is a benefit in cold climates and with cold water work which is why labs and chessies for example typically have those body types. That body type however is a detriment in a fast paced upland dog where heat build up is your enemy.

Unless we are speaking of specific individuals we're all speaking in generalities.

BTW the all time leading producers of UT 1 dogs was a FT bred GSP. That does not however mean that his "average pup" was going to be a great slow paced, closer working dog as was indicated by the original poster as being what he seeks.

[adogslife]

Would a NAVHDA judge down score a dog that hit objectives, then searched the field?
How effective is "a dog hitting edges and lines at full speed seeking the horizon"
Are FT dogs not foot hunting dogs,also?

quote:
NAVHDA places a high degree of importance on water work,

this would because it was the original intention of the breed?FT dogs are not bred to do water work?

quote:
Large, thick bodies are condusive to to maintaining body heat.This is a benefit in cold climates and with cold water work which is why labs and chessies for example typically have those body types.
That body type however is a detriment in a fast paced upland dog where heat build up is your enemy.

As compared to what? The standard for the breed? Are you comparing the NAVHDA dog's body type to labs and chessies? It is my opinion that NAVHDA dogs are more to type then FT dogs.
Again, I don't know what speeds your are talking about that the FT bred dog would be more at an advatage in upland hunting then a NAVHDA dog.

[BigShooter]

I jumped the gun and didn't go back and read Charlie's post. I only reacted to: is this a NAVDA requirement?

Generalities seem to get us in trouble all the time. Even with a normal sized litter from two AA field trail dogs one might get no or very few AA field trial prospects, some tweeners, a close working dog or two and maybe even a boot licker.

Different strokes for different folks. Just because a breeder prefers the NAVDA venue doesn't mean he or she is going to have large bodied, slow working dogs. No, that is not a NAVDA requirement. However Charlie is right, one is very unliklely to find large bodied, slow moving dogs among the top echelon of field trial stock. Unfortunately dogs may be advertised as field trial stock when they really aren't.

Cold weather, cold water work is more dependent upon fat, fur and energy conservation than body size. In ND, Springer Spaniels readily go out in the same water temps as labs and chessies and in temps. I'd never send a large bodied GSP out in. I wouldn't send a large bodied GSP out in temps I wouldn't send a normal sized GSP out in, but that's just my opinion.

Like I said before if you put the reasoning behind each listed quality you'd get more appropriate discussion and more refined answers.

[WildRose]

Pardon me. With over forty years experience with the breed, and over twenty years as a guide, outfitter, and breeder I thought I might actually be able to help guide the guy to the most likely type of lines to help in his search.

If the breeding of two AA dogs produces even a single heavy bodied, close working, methodical worker it is a failure.

NAVHDA is a venue the prizes the qualities this guy is looking for in a dog. There are also a lot of guys who's sole focus is to produce hunting dogs of this sort.

I've been at this a very long time and had a tremendous amount of success and I'm trying to save the guy some headaches.

It does none of us any good for him to end up with a dog he won't be happy with even if it's a dog that you won't be happy with.

Not all lines are the same. Breeders place different emphasis on different traits. AKC and AF trials place no emphasis at all on water work nor does either venue appreciate a slow, methodical, close working, heavy bodied dog.

The breed standard has a heck of a lot of leeway, so dogs that are very dissimilar in stature can still both fit within it.

If he were shopping for a Ferrari, I would not send him to the Chrysler Dealer. If he was shopping for a Hummer, I'm not going to send him over to the Porsche dealer. Sure he might find what he's looking for in a nice used trade in there, but they don't specialize in what he's seeking.

[ezzy333]

With over forty years experience with the breed, and over twenty years as a guide, outfitter, and breeder I thought I might actually be able to help guide the guy to the most likely type of lines to help in his search.

Charlie, I pretty much agree with you but how in the heck did you get over forty years experience with a GSP? I remember reading about a kid raised by wolves but never heard about one raised by GSP's. Do you really think over forty years gives you better insight than 35 years? Or was it even worth mentioning how many years and you could just say you were trying to help.

Personal glorification rarely makes one seem more creditable to other people. Remember that and it may help to improve your image with the other people on the board in further conversations.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

Is there a bloodline that offers the following qualities

High natural ablity
Eagerness to work
Trainability
Close range ( foot hunting )
Slower paced
Large body structure
Good choice for a beginner
Good family companion

If there is a bloodline that offers these, are there kennels that practice responsible line breeding, and who might be good to talk to more about this bloodline

natural ability for upland, waterfowl, fur or everything?
Eager (high energy) but calm for the family?
Trainability = biddability ?
slower paced = slower than what?
Large body structure isn't synonymous with "heavy bodied". To me Sonny is a large AA dog but I wouldn't characterize him as heavy bodied and I have seen a couple of GSPs that look like small horses.
Close range for "foot hunting" excludes how many dogs? Does that mean a broke dog that will hold the birds until a foot hunter gets there or does it mean the dog needs to be close enough so that if birds flush wild or get bumped they can be shot at?
Methodical is not one of the criteria.

Pardon me for digging deeper and trying to help by questioning what the poster's definition of these qualities are rather than simply saying oh yeh, he's listing these qualities cause he's new to pointing dogs & GSPs but his vast inexperience already tells him the type of GSP that will best match his expectations. I don't even see nose, stamina or natural retrieve on the list.

[KALEBSDAD]

High natural ablity
Eagerness to work
Trainability
Close range ( foot hunting )
Slower paced
Large body structure
Good choice for a beginner
Good family companion

I always get a bit of a kick out of these kinds of threads. Anyone can respond and there are few wrong answers. No doubt you've already been giving this some thought so at the risk of being redundant be certain you are prepared to explain what you mean by each item. For example, why do you want a dog with a large structure? I will tell you smaller GSPs appear to thread their way through the cattails with less effort than larger bodied dogs bull dozing their way through. Do you want the dog to last for three long, hard days of hunting? Some larger bodied dogs seem to tire more rapidly. Close range - If you have a dog that finds every bird in a field, stays well back on the scent cone and holds the bird until you get close will that work for you? Good family companion - is barking alright, do you want it to smile, is sweet but whiney okay? What tradeoffs are you willing to consider? Are you willing to trade off a slightly poorer nose for a slower paced dog? Are you willing to go through the "terrible twos" stage with a several months old, young dog. Would you consider a started dog to be a good choice for a beginning trainer?

Then remember while breeders work for consistency every litter is about like having multiple children in a family. Same mom & dad - but how can each one be so different?

OK, lets see,

For example, why do you want a dog with a large structure?

Beacause I like the way they look, sorry if it's not long and drawn out, but that's it


I will tell you smaller GSPs appear to thread their way through the cattails with less effort than larger bodied dogs bull dozing their way through.

He can bull doze all he wants, for me it's about fun, that's all, if that big ole boy wants to plow through some cattails, I say, have a ball, big boy


Do you want the dog to last for three long, hard days of hunting? Some larger bodied dogs seem to tire more rapidly.

If bull dozing through all those cattails has tired the ole boy out, well I reckon, I 'll just have to take him home and let him take a nap, Sheeeeet, gotta do the same thing with my son, would work out well if they tuckered out about the same time


Close range - If you have a dog that finds every bird in a field, stays well back on the scent cone and holds the bird until you get close will that work for you?

Not really, Ya see me and ole Kaleb, we pretty much like to watch them big ole dogs run, ya might say, that's a big part of the fun for us


Good family companion - is barking alright,

Well I don't reckon a little barkin is gonna hurt much, and if it get's to bad, I'll kick momma outta bed and make her go see what the rukous is about, ha ha ha, she shore did get lucky findin me he he he


do you want it to smile

Well, smilin would be ok, but if I could get that sucker to wink and rub it's belly at the same time, Brother, I would have somthin then


is sweet but whiney okay?

sweet would work, but that whine, yall can keep that, tends to give a feller gas....WHEEEEEWWWWW


What tradeoffs are you willing to consider?

Would ya look at that, ain't even got the dog yet and he's already trying to trade me out of him,must gonna be a good un


Are you willing to trade off a slightly poorer nose for a slower paced dog?

Well now the dern dog ain't gonna be much count if I go tradin his nose off, now is he


Are you willing to go through the "terrible twos" stage with a several months old, young dog.

Well NO, I figured I'd send him on over to your place let ya raise him up for me, you be sure and send him home, when he's ready to hunt


Would you consider a started dog to be a good choice for a beginning trainer?

Well I rekon I would, why don't you send on over the best one ya got, and I'll let ya know what me and Ole Kaleb think off him


Then remember while breeders work for consistency every litter is about like having multiple children in a family. Same mom & dad - but how can each one be so different?[/

And brother, if ya ever seen my sister, ya would know how thankful, I am of that


Now ya see, i just had me a little fun with your post, I hope I did not offend, if I did, Please know I am truly sorry, but you see, Brother, that's what this is about for me, fun, me and my son going out,hunting some birds, watching some big, slow working, graceful, beautiful dog, do what he was meant to do, to see my son's eyes light up, when I say " look kaleb, he's on point, or to hear him say good job dad, when I drop a quail, or to see him get excited when I say" wanna go bird huntin tomorrow" that's what is is about for me, I don't care anything about what this judge wants or what that orginazation expects, all I care is that kaleb and I have fun, hunting over a "bleep" fine bird dog, again was not my intent to offend, I have gotten what I was looking for out of the post, for those who responded, thank you.... best wishes to all... Kaleb& Dad

[BigShooter]

[BigShooter]

kalebsdad,

I PM'd you. To get a private message, click on the "User Control Panel", then click on "private messages".

[adogslife]

what happened to my post?
was what I said not factual?

[BigShooter]

what happened to my post?
was what I said not factual?

I PM'd you.