Those who judge

[Sharon]

I know there are several highly knowledgeable folk on here who judge Shooting Dog stakes ( AF). Remind me what you are looking for for a first place dog, please.

[MTO4Life]

Sorry to ask another question here Sharon, but do they run AF trials in SW Ontario? I think I was told they did. How often do they? I'd be interseted in running there when my pup is broke. Also, are they walking or horseback? Thanks!!

Travis

[Wagonmaster]

There are some trials in SW Ontario, but I don't know anything about them. Subscribe to the American Field, all trials have to be published in the Field, or go here and watch from time to time: http://www.americanfield.com/Pages/3_25 ... ut%202.pdf

Shooting Dog is a term that is used for several things. For example, in dual sanctioned trials, those run under AKC rules but where AF placements are simultaneously awarded, the AKC Gun Dog stake is called a Shooting Dog stake.

But assuming you are talking about just a plain old American Field Shooting Dog stake, the first things that come to mind are "classy" and "biddable." We want the dog running to the front to objectives. We want it to show fairly frequently. And we like to see classiness in both the gait and in the dog on point. The Shooting Dog is the epitome of class. If we are talking about pointer setter trials, the 12 o'clock tail is more important in SD than in AA. The dog also must handle, viz. be biddable.

[Sharon]

Sorry to ask another question here Sharon, but do they run AF trials in SW Ontario? I think I was told they did. How often do they? I'd be interseted in running there when my pup is broke. Also, are they walking or horseback? Thanks!!

Travis

Yes we have a strong group - 5 clubs under the Ontario Bird Dog and Conservation banner. We have horseback and walking - more horseback. We also have several recognized Championships a year. The Region 13 Amateur Walking S.D. Championship is May 1 -........., PM your address to me and I'll get you on the mailing list.

[ElhewPointer]

I just judged the Region 5 Walking Shooting Dog Ch. and saw some nice dogs. There are many things that, when judging, are similar no matter if SD or AA. However, for me the things that differ from an AA performance are bidability(expecially in walking trial stake). I don't mind if the dog is making big moves but when the handler asks the dog should respond. Style and class are a big factor to me. We are trying to breed class shooting dogs whether it be for the trial person or the hunting person. Sportsmen enjoy a classy animal. I also want to see bottom. If it is a Championship, I wan't to see as much heart and desire at min. 59 as I did at min. 3. But most of all and this doesn't just apply for SD is, I want to see brains. Does the dog know what side of a line to take, is he/she hunting smart. It is fun to see a dog work that, at the end of the 60 mins., you ask yourself, man did this dog think to himself how he was going to hunt this course. It is impressive to me when you can look a few hundred yards ahead of that dog hoping he takes a certain line, then he does it. JMO

Vagas

[RayGubernat]

Sharon -

There are lots of pieces to the puzzle. Fir a winning shooting dog...they all gotta fit. There has to be a harmonious balance between all the parts and the performance has to flow smoothly.

Now for the pieces of the puzzle...

I need to see desire and drive
I need to see an efficient and intelligent ground application...appropriate to the terrain
I need to see high style and impeccable manners on game...tall and proud
I need to see a dog that wants to head over the hill, but that swings back to make sure it is still in sync with its handler before it does.
I need to see a strong start and a strong finish and a dog that is hunting its heart out in between.

RayG

[slistoe]

I know there are several highly knowledgeable folk on here who judge Shooting Dog stakes ( AF). Remind me what you are looking for for a first place dog, please.

The dog that does things a little bit better than all the other dogs in the stake.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

All of the above, plus they have to make you want to look at them, make the hair on your neck stand up!

[Neil Mace]

They have to show me they would find wild birds were they available; with class, style, speed, intelligence, stamina, honesty, determination, drive, cooperation, and intensity in all things.

I want a dog that shows that he could do this when birds are scarce no matter the terrain and weather. All dogs will miss some birds, I want the one that will find the most in 60 minutes if there were only a few, when they have to go long and hard to dig them up. Any dog, a poodle, can find birds when they are plentiful, or planted along the horsepath.

I do not fault a dog for pointing on the horsepath, he has to point them where he finds them, it is how he got there that is important.

I never count finds; weather, time of day, and where they were planted, dictates availability. Even in the rare wild bird or more common pre-release trial, we must judge the dogs, not keep a score card. Birds are not available equally for all dogs throughout the trial, it is why we have judges.

I never look for the error free, perfect dog, but the one that does the most things right, the one that is taking chances, on the edge, he may make a minor bobble, but in the whole he shows he is the best.

I will condone the marking of the bird, even allow a little happy feet after the flush and shot, at that point the dog's job is done, he presented the birds to the gun. All the barrel work has made for some impressive looking dogs on point, flush and after, but it has nothing to do with bird hunting.

The difference in an All-Age and Shooting Dog is the All-Age is more extreme in all the above. Not better, just closer to that edge.

Field trials are to develop better breeding stock, so you look for those traits that can be passed on, trainability only being one.

Neil

[gunner]

The thing I think about first when judging a stake is; Which dogs would I like to take home with me that day.

You have to know the general guidelines of the stake you're judging, if one has any questions they best ask the trial chairman first.

I try to give my undivided attention to all the dogs entered and look at them as if they were my own dogs. I try to confer with the other judge throughout the stake so that there are no bombshells dropped as to who's the top dog at the end of the day.

Most of the judges I've ever judged with have been lifetime birdhunters, most have been successful training their own dogs and many have trained professionally.

It's a good idea to review the Guidelines of Judicial Practice every now and then if you're judging amateur stakes; it's a good idea for the open stakes as well. Here they are online...
https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/452473/Guidelin.pdf

I don't like to get the feeling someone is trying to pull one over on me. I don't like unlimited scouting. A handler should ask permission first in an amateur stake.
Broke dog stakes are usually much easier to judge than a large entry open derby stake.




https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/452473/Guidelin.pdf

[ElhewPointer]

Gunner,

I have a question for ya. Why would you judge a dog/scouting different in an Am. stake compaired to an Open stake? I do agree with you to know where the other judge is at on the dogs. After each brace it is nice to talk things over and see if there are any changes.

[gunner]

Yes, I would judge them differently.
I have in mind what I believe a dog should do in the stake it has been entered.
There are written guidelines for amateur shooting dog stakes and championships.

There are NO written guidelines for open stakes. Minimum American Field Standards, yes, but a pro or someone running a dog in an open stake is not restricted to AFTCA standards or guidelines.

This gives a handler considerable leeway. If someone in an open stake thinks he needs a lot of help scouting he can do as he pleases. Perhaps he'll have someone out at the get-go without even glancing at the judicial duo. He may have one scout herding the dog and others in the gallery helping out. The handler may do as he likes. He nor his scout must not interfere with the other handler and his dog however.

BUT, the handler should realize that if someone else and their dog does a better job without all the extra handling and scouting depending on the stake, and of course taking into consideration the weather, birds, courses, etc, most judges are going to give a higher placement to the dog that is winning the stake on it's own abilities with a minimum of help from it's handler. It's the handlers responsibility to grandstand the dog.

[gunner]

I'd like to add that judges should maintain the pace of the stake. At breakaway there is a high level of excitement and the dogs and handlers will normally push the pace. Good judges understand that, but they will soon bring the pace down to whats expected.

I don't like to see handlers riding hard to the front pushing their dogs forward to give the impression of their charges really laying it out. This can cause problems leaving the other handler, his dog and everyone else having to quicken their gait.

Good judges will ride to see a good performance but no judge should be pushed by a handler's demands. A good judge would probably suggest that he'd like to see more of the dog's abililities but it would be the handler's responsibility to do just that. No one should waste good horseflesh trying to keep up with a "pushed dog.
We want to see how trully great the dog may be.

And, a handler should expect that the judge be attentive to the dog running. The judge should be well mounted the duration of the stake. When handling I regularly look over my shoulder to see if the judges are watching. I try to stay in touch with my dog, and would expect the judge to maintain a pace forthat particular venue. A lallygagging oaf of a judge would irritate any handler.
A good handler will point out the dog when it's making an attractive hunting cast. One should expect to hear a "got 'em from a observant judge.

[DGFavor]

I don't put that much thought into it. I go, I watch, I put up the ones I liked the best on those given days and conditions. Simple.

[R-Heaton]

Sharon,,,, With Douglas on this one,,, its not that tough,,,, get your dogs running between 10-2 get them to hang out there for the whole hour and point more birds than everybody else. You will be in the money more times than not if your dog runs "enough" and points more birds than the other dogs.

[vzkennels]

Rich we need to get you & Doug to judge a few here in the East,how bout it?

[R-Heaton]

Yea that would be cool,,,,, but either of us are AKC certified,, it keeps us from getting to busy of schedule which would take away valuable time away from the computer sharing our wealth of knowledge and tips, that and apparently one of us has brittle bones.

[vzkennels]

[RayGubernat]

R_Heaton -

Aw c'mon now. Getting certified as a judge ain't all that hard.
I passed the judging test with a 90(you only need 85 to pass) and if a weekend AFTCA trialer like me can pass the judge's test, you heavy hitters should have no problem at all

RayG

[Sharon]

What was the 10 percent you didn't know? Hmmmm I hope it wasn't the judging of the manners around birds. I always wonder what my Doctor didn't pass in Medical School.


Dog was sharp to-day. 25 dogs in the SD stake Sat./Sun. If i don't report back, you'll know why.

[RayGubernat]

Sharon -

I'm pretty good, most of the time... some days I might even delude myself that I am approaching some semblance of excellence, but I do not ever wish to be perfect. It did not work out real well for the last person who was perfect. As I recall he needed divine intervention. I can't count on that. :roll:

And NO - I ain't tellin which ones they said I got wrong.

RayG

[Wagonmaster]

The test is based on the AKC rule book, and no one who judges dogs in field trials and is any good, uses the Yellow Brick Road Code. I have run into a couple of Yellow Brick Road judges at a local Britt club heavily infested with show people, but that is about it.

[PkerStr8Tail]

They have to show me they would find wild birds were they available; with class, style, speed, intelligence, stamina, honesty, determination, drive, cooperation, and intensity in all things.

I want a dog that shows that he could do this when birds are scarce no matter the terrain and weather. All dogs will miss some birds, I want the one that will find the most in 60 minutes if there were only a few, when they have to go long and hard to dig them up. Any dog, a poodle, can find birds when they are plentiful, or planted along the horsepath.

I do not fault a dog for pointing on the horsepath, he has to point them where he finds them, it is how he got there that is important.

I never count finds; weather, time of day, and where they were planted, dictates availability. Even in the rare wild bird or more common pre-release trial, we must judge the dogs, not keep a score card. Birds are not available equally for all dogs throughout the trial, it is why we have judges.

I never look for the error free, perfect dog, but the one that does the most things right, the one that is taking chances, on the edge, he may make a minor bobble, but in the whole he shows he is the best.

I will condone the marking of the bird, even allow a little happy feet after the flush and shot, at that point the dog's job is done, he presented the birds to the gun. All the barrel work has made for some impressive looking dogs on point, flush and after, but it has nothing to do with bird hunting.

The difference in an All-Age and Shooting Dog is the All-Age is more extreme in all the above. Not better, just closer to that edge.

Field trials are to develop better breeding stock, so you look for those traits that can be passed on, trainability only being one.

Neil

I don't judge, but I do compete in trials. I would agree with Neil's reply. Remember the goal of trialing in the first place is to advance the breed. I think too many times that focus gets lost when judging bias comes into play towards certain Pros. It shouldn't matter who runs the dog, although we know it does matter. It should only matter which dogs gets it done. Those dogs should win and therefore be the ones that people want to breed to in the future. I have been involved in horseback field trials for only about 2 years now, but have learned a lot about this particular game in a short time. I have been involved in many other types of dog competitions such as NSTRA, NAVHDA, AKC Hunt Tests, Pheasant Hunter Unlimited and each one has their own set of holes that fall short of the goal of furthering the breed. I am not going to go into all that, but I think the best advice to those that don't trial is to go and watch when you get a chance. It is not smart to breed to a dog you have never seen or buy a puppy from a breeding you have never seen as well. Just because a certain dog is winning doesn't mean it will have the traits you want to pass on. Unfortunately, due to the politics not all the winning dogs are ones you want to breed or buy a puppy out of in the future.

[dan v]

A good handler will point out the dog when it's making an attractive hunting cast. One should expect to hear a "got 'em from a observant judge.

What about the handler that thinks he needs to point out his dog on a 100 yard cast that Stevie Wonder could see? It is ridiculous with some, I watch but never reply whens I feel it's excessive.

I've judged with a number of people that would like to talk about their last fishing trip, their last National, whatever....I find it bothersome, and it's disrespectful to handlers. Even if you CAN watch a dog and hold a conversation, the appearance is bad.

[gunner]

Bill Allen on judging...

http://www.strideaway.com/strideaway/