Frozen Semen Breedings Should Not Be Registered

[Ron R]

Am I the only guy that thinks frozen semen breedings are wrong? If a great champion cann't produce sons that produces champions then why breed back to him? When a dog dies he should stay dead and let his offspring carry on his legacy. I think frozen semen breedings only make very high priced puppys and they initally will set the breed back. Like it or not, the sport progresses (mostly due to Miller dogs) and the quality and quauntity of good birddogs is better than it was 20 or 30 yrs ago. How many frozen semen champions are there and who are they? Probobally none because they are used for breeding to sell pups. If a dog is a frozen semen champion the sire should have an * for the sake of record keeping.

I'm looking foward to hearing some other opinions on this subject.

[nowicki2005]

Am I the only guy that thinks frozen semen breedings are wrong? If a great champion cann't produce sons that produces champions then why breed back to him? When a dog dies he should stay dead and let his offspring carry on his legacy. I think frozen semen breedings only make very high priced puppys and they initally will set the breed back. Like it or not, the sport progresses (mostly due to Miller dogs) and the quality and quauntity of good birddogs is better than it was 20 or 30 yrs ago. How many frozen semen champions are there and who are they? Probobally none because they are used for breeding to sell pups. If a dog is a frozen semen champion the sire should have an * for the sake of record keeping.

I'm looking foward to hearing some other opinions on this subject.

"Mostly due to Miller dogs," that's a pretty arrogant and narrow minded statement imo.

Also "If a great champion cann't produce sons that produces champions then why breed back to him?" has nothing to do with your topic. It has nothing to do with "frozen semen breedings."

Frozen semen breeding's are fairly new and for the most part are used to cut down cost. Its a waste of time and money to ship a dog from Maine to Washington and get nothing out of it. Do you think just run of the mill dogs are being bred this way? If anything as far as quality of dogs, it increases it greatly. It allows dogs to become more accessible and better breeding to occur. Cadillacs are nice cars than your average car. Make them more affordable and more people start driving nicer cars. Make a Mercedes 15k and there will be more and more people you see driving them and less impalas or escorts.

[R-Heaton]

Ron,, interesting opinion. But I see your new to posting to the forum so was wondering about your dog resume before you can be taken serious?

If a great champion cann't produce sons that produces champions

Nobody said they couldn't,, might be why you want to go back to him,, don't ya think?

How many frozen semen champions are there and who are they

I know of a couple at least,,,, but for the sake of not debating,,,, what's it to you if people want to waste there money going to dogs of the past?

[Ron R]

"Mostly due to Miller dogs" was arrogant and narrow minded for me to say, sorry. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just find this subject may be interesting to discuss. I hope everybody understands the logic behind my statement. Let dead dogs live through their sons not through a straw. Let the sons of these great dogs carry on their legacy the old fashion way.

[Hotpepper]

Being new to the forum and I do believe posting something that you are so wrong about. IMO.

We have people on this froum from all over the world and personally know of shipping the frozen stuff on several occasions to South Africa, the 1st of those puppies are jsut wonderful.

To collect and save for posterity a great dog is just wonderful, to be able to replicate a dog with his own stuff will improve the breed. The breedings that occur with frozen are well planned to achieve what is wanted. The Cecil dog from Caden's Kennels has been used quite a bit and Dennis still has more of the stuff. It produces winners and is successful in either linebreeding or outcrosses. One of his sons, CJ has been bred 50 times or more but the frozen is still much sought after by people.

Not a moderator here but we welcome everyone that has bird dog interests, I hope you have less controversial posts though

Pepper

[ohiogsp]

My one female is out of NFC LB's OHI Shamless. She is from a Ai litter and shame has been gone for a while now but not too long ago he was the "top producing gsp field trial stud of the year". This was after he was dead for sure. So, why not continue breeding and putting dogs out there that are great and if the dogs are evolving so much why can't they beat these old line dogs from Ai litters? Wouldn't the goal be to get better dogs into everyones hands and evolove from that tougher compitetion no matter what the breeding.

[Ron R]

I know and clearly understand the advantages of frozen semen. I used a poor chioce of words in my post. It is none of my business what anybody does with their dogs. This post is not who I am it's just something I thought would be interesting to talk about. I do think they're some negatives in frozen semen breedings. Going against mother nature kind of thing.

Thanks Hotpepper, I really enjoy reading this forum when I have the time.

[briarpatch]

Not a moderator here but we welcome everyone that has bird dog interests, I hope you have less controversial posts though

I personally like the slightly controversial posts.. I am sure it will help the poster learn abit more about the subject and also many readers.. When you throw a debatable subject out there sure gets lots of different responces that may help not only the poster but the many who read it...

but anyway I would think frozen also would be a great way to breed back towards the orginator in a linebreeding.
Just a scenario
say you had a great dog that threw great sons as you mentioned and they threw great sons but the sons,sons,sons were ok but not quite as good as pop or granddad the linebreeding has started to water down abit. Due to breeding to bitches of slighty outcrossed lines.
perhaps a cross back to the frozen stuff you had taken from grandpop because he threw them awesome sons to begin with would be just what the Dr. ordered to throw even better pups..

just a thought..if the miller dogs you mentioned and obviously think are great for you but they started to get watered down, wouldnt it be great to have a little frozen stuff around to breed back to?
to bring forward those traits you believe made them great to begin with..

just a thought or 2

[ezzy333]

Am I the only guy that thinks frozen semen breedings are wrong? If a great champion cann't produce sons that produces champions then why breed back to him? When a dog dies he should stay dead and let his offspring carry on his legacy. I think frozen semen breedings only make very high priced puppys and they initally will set the breed back. Like it or not, the sport progresses (mostly due to Miller dogs) and the quality and quauntity of good birddogs is better than it was 20 or 30 yrs ago. How many frozen semen champions are there and who are they? Probobally none because they are used for breeding to sell pups. If a dog is a frozen semen champion the sire should have an * for the sake of record keeping.

I'm looking foward to hearing some other opinions on this subject.

This doesn't sound to me like something you want to discuss but rather something you feel will stir the pot and get an arguement started. If you do want to discuss frozen semen then editthis post to that question and get rid of the other stuff that has nothing to do with the subject.

Ezzy

[jakemaster]

Hmmmmm Rail dancer has produced 24 multi- time champions form frozen semen and new offspring continue to win, including wins at this years Quail Futurity. I think with with results like that you will always see frozen semen pups. Check out few pics of our Sarah and Rail Dancer pups.

RD pups 017.JPG

[Hotpepper]

For lack of a better way of saying it, topics the are "very" controversial will get the "back up" of most all of the regulars here. I love the discussions and have learned a lot. It has just been my expeerience that using the "frozen semen" works in making and keeping a linebreeding going.

This forum is very diverse in opinions and the opinions are generally respected.

Ron R will probably work here, big knowing here on this saturday morning.

Pepper

[Ron R]

Briarpatch, that was a very smart reply. To answer without being a hypocrite I would say outcross to a proven pruducer then go back into the original bloodline. Similar to what Mr. Whele did when outcrossing to Hook's Bounty Hunter and Dun's Fearless Bud.

Jakemaster, I had no idea that Rail Dancer frozen semen was throwing that awsome. I stand corrected.

Ezzy, I have apologized for my poor choice of words. Feel free to lock this thread and I will start a new one.
Thanks

[ezzy333]

Ron,

Thank you but there is no need to lock it if we stay on subject.

Ezzy

[DGFavor]

A couple more real life facts resulting from frozen semen AI:

Next Chapter - 10+ AA championships
Madras - 5 or 6 championships
Strikes Debutante - 5 or 6 championships
Idaho's Lucky Strike/Idaho's Clean Sweep - 8 or 9 championship placements

All frozen semen AI's by Silver Strike. Probably a couple more I don't know about.

I'm with ya' Ron in theory - the dog of today ought to be better than the dog of yesteryear. Definitely that concept weighs heavily when considering frozen semen AI from a long deceased dog. That said, it's hard to argue with the production records the dogs of yesteryear are continuing to produce today! It's a nice option to have to say the least!

[Fieldmaster]

I was always told if you like the sonand what he has produced, then breed back to the Sire vrs. the Son when possible. I have also seen where the offspring can turn out to be better producers also. Alot depends on the bitch also, she is a huge part of the equation also.

Robert

[jakemaster]

Alot depends on the bitch also, she is a huge part of the equation also.

Robert

Yes I agree Sarah has produced several nice litters with Strutt and Caladens Commander. Cant wait to see what she does with these Rail Dancer pups. I like the idea of using Current studs to help find producers then cross them back to some past producers to enhance the lines. This enables you to use current strong bitches that were not around when these studs were alive to create some nice crosses.

[wfkgsps]

I was always told if you like the sonand what he has produced, then breed back to the Sire vrs. the Son when possible.

Does this fall under the theory that no dog can produce himself or is there another reason?

[Ron R]

Where would we be if birddog men were doing this 30 or 40 years ago? My guess is that we would all have sons of Elhew Strike, Millers Chief, Fiddler, Joe Shadow, ect. We would have missed out on the true greatness of these producers and the production off their offspring. Why breed to Snakefoot when you can breed to his daddy (via frozen semen)ect. Would we be better off right now if that was the case?

Like Briarpatch mentioned about a bloodline getting watered down. If the production of a bloodline fades and cann't be revived then I call that nature running it's coarse. I just think that we may have too much technology for our own good and way too much government but thats a different story.

[RayGubernat]

Like many things, there are at least two sides to this discussion.

If frozen semen was available for a dog like Lexington Jake or Riggin's White Knight or Tarhelia's Lucky Strike or A Rambling Rebvel or Evolution or Paladin or Flush's Country Squire, I can assure you that there would be a steady infusion of those old genes into the current crop of pointers. And I for one believe that infusions of the blood of these old pointers would indeed serve to better the breed. Reintroducing the genetics of Evolution into a line heavy with Van Mac would serve to further fix and reinvogorate the current offspring with some of what made the line great in the first place. There is a whole lot right with breeding a dam back to her great-great grandsire.

If nothing else, breeding to some of the very best dogs of the past on a continuing basis would help to assure that the average performance level of the puppies produced would slowly but surely edge upward. The more top quality animals there are in a puppy's pedigree, the more likely you are to get an individual offspring which approaches those quality levels.

That is one side.

There is of course the other side of the discussion which argues that the dogs of today are in many ways superior to some of those old giants and to use frozen semen from long dead dogs
will tend to result in less usage of present day stud dogs, some of which might be better producers than the dogs of legend. That is also true. However, there will always be folks who wish to use live cover and there will always be folks, like Mr. Whele who preferred to use very young stud dogs for their youthful vigor(and yes he was successful in this regard). So I believe that traditional breeding will go on, but it may well be reduced in frequency.


It is also true that if a dog of today is determined to be a new legend(Calico's Thrillogy comes to mind), if the dog has been collected, there is and will be the opportunity to utilize his genes in the future.

One of the enduringly unfair things about bird dogs is the fact that by the time they have proved that they are worthy of being bred...they are often dead.

With AI and frozen semen, ther is the opportunity, even though it is an expensive proposition...to breed to a dog that we would otherwise not have been able to.

The real question comes down a money question...don't they always???... Is it worth it to breed to an established great dog, even though the costs of doing so are three to four times more than a natural cover. Are the dogs produced by AI, by dog X... as a group, which includes new sires, new brood dams, competitors and hunting dogs... worth what they cost to produce?

Like every other experiment...you do not know the answer until you perform the experiment.

RayG

[Neil Mace]

Being against it is one thing, but why do you say they should not be registerable?

You don't like the practice, don't buy a pup from it.

It really is that simple,

Neil

[Ron R]

Neil, the registerable comment was 100% wrong on my part. I worded that wrong and your wright, it's all about choices.

[Wildweeds]

I tend to believe it matters not one way or another but..........when a dog is a producer why not save him for use in the future.Tomoka was a great producer and they saved semen on him,Sunrise was also a great producer and they saved some on him.Guardrail,same movie and the list goes on.

I saw 2 litters of Additions go boy pups developed from frozen semen,one of those pups is a couple time champion and I'm sure Rich Heaton knows him or has seen this dog win.His name is McAdditional Class,I've noticed some derby winners and shooting dog winners by him as well in the field so he is producing as well.

I agree with you on the money thing too,Sunrise for example.......if one was seeking a trial dog prospect for all age, a lone Sunrise pup purchased for 2K may fizzle and be a washout,however plenty of folks wish to have the "Name Icon" status and they will pay that 2k and not even blink.A trialer would stand a better chance of getting a good prospect by buying 3 pups from all age breeding for the price of one sunrise pup.And their choices would be just as good,they could try a patriot pup,a Jetsetter pup,and a Skyhawk pup and have the odds more in their favor for success with the same ante price.

[GsPJustin]

What is the % of dead or ill pups from AI/Frozen Semen litters compared to Live breedings?

Just in case no one understood that. How many more pups die in AI/Frozen Semen breedings compared to Live breedings?

sorry for the thread jack.

[honeyrun]

I was very fortunate to own one of the last surviving grandsons of DC Hillhaven's Hustler, he also happened to be a grandson of DC Erick von Enzstrand and a great grandson of CH Gretchenhof Columbia River. With a pedigree like that, I most certainly collected on him and have several breedings on ice. We lost him at 15.5 years of age a couple of years ago. I currently have a granddaughter of his that we will be breeding to the "Frozen Snuffy" next year.

If you really like what you are producing in your lines, that is one sure way of keeping it true to what you want. Out crossing is a must every couple of generations, but to retain your "line", you must tap back into the "old" stuff from time to time.

[Cora's Shadow]

What is the % of dead or ill pups from AI/Frozen Semen litters compared to Live breedings?

The % of dead/sick pups in AI/Frozen semen litters is the same as live breedings. Freezing the semen will probably kill a lot of the sperm, but when thawed, only the healthy swimmers are going to fertilize the eggs so the health of the puppies will not be any different than a natural breeding. Most healthy males have about 90% viable semen, but after you freeze it (for however long) and then thaw it, most will have between 50 and 60% viable semen. But that remaining 50-60% is not any weaker.

The reproductive specialist that we worked with for our upcoming litter has a theory that AI breedings at his clinic actually end up producing more puppies than natural breedings. He is so careful with the timing that even though he is using less semen to breed a bitch (only a few hundred million sperm as opposed to the billion sperm used in a natural breeding), he is able to fertilize the eggs at the exact right time when they bitch is ovulating.

I am curious to see if my personal experience mirrors his experience. My current dog was bred naturally last year and had 9 puppies, but 2 were stillborn. This year, we bred her with frozen semen from Denmark using AI. The ultrasound showed at least 8 puppies. So email me in 3 weeks and ask me if she had more pups overall with fewer stillborns.

[myerstenn]

With the cost of shipping dogs around the country the idea of frozen or chilled semen is going to be even more popular.. As for breeding to deceased champions , i dont see many people lining up to breed to those dogs who have a less than formidable production record. As for puppy costs its all a matter of supply and demand. Good producers command a higher than average stud fee. Accordingly their puppys sell for a higher price. REmember there is no endless stream of frozen semen for producers it eventually comes to an end.

[runner]

What is the quality control on frozen semen? Could there be some Madoff like scheister out there selling "X,Y, or Z's" frozen semen, and really just using the old farm dog's stuff? Forgive me for being naive, but I'm curious if it is always verified with DNA analysis, or in some manner that would prevent fraud?

[Cora's Shadow]

runner,

I think that most frozen semen samples are verified with DNA analysis. The AKC requires it for any frozen semen breeding. And even though my breed is not AKC registered, the vet from Denmark included a DNA sample with the semen so we ran it just to be sure.

NAVHDA does not require a DNA test to register frozen semen litters, but they do make your vet fill out an affidavit saying that he used the right semen for your dog. Perhaps someone else on the forum can talk about the policies of the FDSB, UKC, CKC, and some of the other registries.

[snips]

I see absolutly nothing wrong with it. We have sent frozen to S Africa and have frozen on 3 of our best dogs, 2 deceased. But I am seeing dogs produced from our linebreedings that, so far, are attractive and talented enough to breed back into. It will be great to have that semen down the road tho if we ever need what we origionally started with to produce the dogs we are enjoying today.

[Pointers_31]

Ron,

How about this scenario? You have a male dog that is the best dog you have ever had, he is just hitting his prime and you haven't bred to him and there are no offspring of his out there. You are planning to breed to him one of your super nice females and you think they will be a great match. Then one day you walk out to the kennels to feed him, and there he lays dead. Now, you are kicking yourself and saying, boy I wish I would've bred to him earlier, or I wish I had a couple of straws out him. Now, you don't have your once in a lifetime dog, and you don't have any frozen semen out of him to breed to. All you have left is coulda shoulda woulda. I believe frozen semen breedings don't set the breed back, because most of the time such as in Rail Dancers case, they are used on current females that will further make the breed better. In my opinion there are only a few real good stud dogs out there right now, so if everyone breeds to them, you aren't furthering the breed all that much using live breedings either. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth!

[Ron R]

Pointers_31,

That's a tough scenario. I can admit that there are some advantages to frozen semen breedings. Another one would be when breeding to a studdog that is very far away. It would be so mush easier to just have a straw sent to your vet's office. I just forsee it being abused in the future (as it is becoming more affordable) and I cann't make myself get used to the idea of it on a regular basis.

[ezzy333]

It's done in every other speice after this same arguement. Seems with DNA there is little chance of it being misused in the future.

Ezzy

[Ron R]

Ezzy - What's that got to do with anything? I am very familiar with DNA. Getting back to my original statement. Frozen semen breedings go against mother nature's selective breeding process in wich through selective breeding the strongests survive, this means with birddogs that the best should be bred to the best, generation after genaeration and thus the line should improve and get stronger with each generation. With frozen semen breedings a bloodline or strain will become stagnant and cease to implove. I can'nt see why these facts are so difficult for everybody to understand. A dog from 40 yrs ago should not be able to run with a dog of today. Thru these frozen semen breedings you are tampering with the natural evolution of the species.

[ElhewPointer]

So we'll say that they get rid of AI, just as thouroughbreds have done. Well what happens is everyone breeds to the best sire that year. Bloodlines get so tight because everyone is breeding to the same animal. After many years, you start seeing flaws such as horses breaking down at such a young age, etc.... If they had the possiblities to breed back to some of that old blood they may have a chance of getting that flaw out. If you take away AI, then you would see a lot more dogs go out and win 1 championship and then retire him to stud because they don't want him getting hurt or dying. Then flaws that would show up in that dog are never discovered because the dog was retired at such a young age.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy - What's that got to do with anything? I am very familiar with DNA. Getting back to my original statement. Frozen semen breedings go against mother nature's selective breeding process in wich through selective breeding the strongests survive, this means with birddogs that the best should be bred to the best, generation after genaeration and thus the line should improve and get stronger with each generation. With frozen semen breedings a bloodline or strain will become stagnant and cease to implove. I can'nt see why these facts are so difficult for everybody to understand. A dog from 40 yrs ago should not be able to run with a dog of today. Thru these frozen semen breedings you are tampering with the natural evolution of the species.

Ron,

What it has to do with anything is the same arguemnet you are making has been made before except I have never heard that it had a thing to do with selective breeding other than it gives you a wider range of sires to breed to. I agree if we are improving our dogs then the dogs of 20 or 30 years ago shouldn't be able to compete but I think it would be hard to judge overall improvement. However, even with all of the problems you imagine, it has worked and works well with other speices even though some thought just like you do.

I think it comes down to no more than allowing people to breed however they like and that is called freedom. I like it because it improves diversity which is so important if we are to go forward.

Ezzy