DNA testing and events

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ACooper
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DNA testing and events

Post by ACooper » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:13 pm

I think it would be a good idea to require dna testing prior to breeding, hunt test, trials, shows etc. This will not fix what may or may not have happened in the past but could sure save a lot of heart ache/problems in the future.

Opinions?

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by megschristina » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:57 pm

If it were accurate I would agree. The only accurate testing that is done is proof that a dogs mother is who the papers say it is. Breed identification via DNA is a money grubbing scheme to say the least.
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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by 3Britts » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:00 pm

Okay, I'll jump into the fire on this one.

I have no problem with dna prior to breeding. I think that it would eliminate a host of problems.
Now, prior to hunt tests, trials and showing, I can't see what good it would do there. You would have to explain what the benefit would be before I could take a firm stance.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by BigShooter » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:35 pm

As far as I know the only value of DNA testing is to establish the relationship between a pup and it's parents. Obviously split litters do occur as a result of two males impregnating one female during the same ovulation cycle. So you'd have to DNA both parents and have each of the pups DNAd. One could not determine what dogs & dog breeds had been mixed in the past but present and future mixes would be reduced. The next question is how you could permanently ID a pup prior to the DNA test to later require a match between the permanent ID & DNA to try and prevent substitutions. If you tattooed IDs, just like the cattle thieves you might have "re-branding" artists.

You "might" be able to reduce (but probably not totally eliminate) mixing in other breeds, non-registered dogs, red-shirting pups, etc. Drawing blood before every event would carry infection risk and trauma risk to blood vessels if too many draws were done in the same area. However, you could use this process on a limited basis for dogs that placed in major regional or national competitions, like testing winning athletes.
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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by R-Heaton » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:58 pm

ACooper wrote:I think it would be a good idea to require dna testing prior to breeding
Just for the sake of playing devils advocate,,,, could you imagine of Obama said this? Whats happend to less government in our lives?

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by briarpatch » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:49 pm

I also would have no problem with a required DNA test of a dog and bitch before breeding rights be permitted ..
But I don't think it should be required at every test and things like that think thats taking it a bit to extremes..
But if done to gain breeding rights this would help lesson the chance of a mix slipping into the woodwork and becoming a breedable dog..
If the pups didnt look quite right a dna test would tell you for sure if the pups were from the parents stated if all dogs were required to be tested before breeding..
and when it came near time to breed the pups they would have to tested as well then this would be compared to the original parents and checked to make sure the pup had come from were it supposedly did before that pup could breed registerable pups.

I personally don't think this would be a bad idea ..
In a generation's time you would know for sure that no more crosses are getting into the mix..
But then what about imports? that dont require testing of the parents
That could create a problem for people who like the imports what if the parents of the imported dog were not tested?

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by tenbearsviz » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:28 am

ACooper, The Vizsla Club of America has instituted a requirement that all dog competing in the National events be DNA'ed.

They also have a Qualify On Line requirement as well. This is where the dog must not have any disqualifying faults in order to compete in the national field trials.

Funny thing is that the show dogs dont have to prove they can hunt... But that is another thread of it's own.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by ACooper » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:52 am

This post is for the sake of discussion, I am not saying that a dog needs to be tested prior to every event, but how about before it can be awareded a title (fc, mh, ch etc) it needs to have a DNA profile on record? Before a litter can be registered both parents need a dna profile on record? I know current DNA tests only prove parentage but it's a lot better than nothing. If we do not push for something like this to be put into place in ten years we will still be saying " well it only proves parentage" by that time we could have several generations of tested dogs.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:22 am

The American Field has a regulation in place to the effect that any dog who has won a championship or RU championship must be DNA'ed if it is not already. To be permanently awarded that championship and have it recorded on the dog's pedigree, the DNA must be approved.

The reason why this is, I believe a prudent and efficient use of the technology is because, most often, folks will look to a field trial champion as a stud. The plain fact is that the vast majority of AF field trial dogs that are not Champions or RU champions simply do not get bred, or if they do it is very sparingly. The impact on the breed of a stud or dam that produces one litter is minimal, usually.

Pups generally do not sell well to field trialers if at least one parent is not a Field Champion. They will not typically command any sort of premium, so without champion parentage, the breeder is facing an uphill battle to break even on the litter.

So...if a dog wins a championship and is then found to have incorrect parentage, the situation can be remedied before significant corruption is done to the pedigree database and the breed.

Personally, if I had a real nice prospect that I was thinking of buying and putting with a pro, I would send a swab in myself. I would do this even if the dog was already swabbed and tested and recorded...before I committed to buying the dog for several thousand dollars, dedicated a year and $8,000 or more, to the development and trialing of that dog. I would want to make sure that the dog I was buying was indeed, in fact, the very same dog that the papers said. I would tell the seller, in plain terms, before any money changed hands, that I was going to do precisely this.

I would physically take the cheek swab myself and I would send it in myself, when I took physical posession of the dog. This way there is no possibility for a "mixup". The DNA test costs about fifty bucks. To me that is real cheap insurance and a no brainer.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:02 am

This is old news. As Ray said, AF requires DNA for titled dogs. The GSPCA requires DNA for a dog to run in the National Championships (any of the stakes). So that covers the pointers, setters, and GSP's. Vizsla's too. It is true that this is just a DNA "footprint" of the dog, and without parents' DNA in a database, it is not possible to match up pup with parents, but at the GSPCA these requirements have been in place since 2003, AF was close behind. So the database has begun to build up. Mine are all DNA'd eight ways from Sunday. Many GSP trialers, me included, do the "hidden coat color" test also.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by BigShooter » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:00 am

Just looking for a little clarity & more info. When AF requires titled dogs to be DNAd, does that mean that the parents had to have ben DNAd also? Until all DNAd dogs have only DNAd parents, are permanently identified and their ID is tied to their DNA, how are red-shirting and substitutiomns prevented?
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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by ACooper » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am

Wagonmaster wrote:This is old news. As Ray said, AF requires DNA for titled dogs. The GSPCA requires DNA for a dog to run in the National Championships (any of the stakes). So that covers the pointers, setters, and GSP's. Vizsla's too. It is true that this is just a DNA "footprint" of the dog, and without parents' DNA in a database, it is not possible to match up pup with parents, but at the GSPCA these requirements have been in place since 2003, AF was close behind. So the database has begun to build up. Mine are all DNA'd eight ways from Sunday. Many GSP trialers, me included, do the "hidden coat color" test also.

This is very good info, I have either forgotten that the GSPCA required this or just never knew as I dont trial, the last time I rode in the gallery at Eureka was 2000 or 2001, so I will be the first to admit I am not the most informed. How about dnaing dogs prior to registering a litter or receiving a HT title? I figure the more dogs dna'd the better we will all be in the future.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by vzkennels » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:50 am

Old news like John said but both the GSPCA & NGSPA require all futurities at the Nats also be DNAed so we are getting there.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by BigShooter » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:16 pm

vzkennels wrote:Old news like John said but both the GSPCA & NGSPA require all futurities at the Nats also be DNAed so we are getting there.
That's why my dogs are DNAd and why I wanted the stud for our May 2nd puppies to be DNAd before breeding.
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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:31 pm

How about dnaing dogs prior to registering a litter or receiving a HT title? I figure the more dogs dna'd the better we will all be in the future.
That would require the affirmative vote of the show people in the GSPCA. The primary opposition to the requirement of DNA to enter the NFT came from the show people, not the trialers. We have it now for the NFT, so if you think it should be changed for registration or test titles, you need to talk to the show people. By the way, I don't know whether DNA is required for an FC or AFC. It was not a few years ago, I haven't had a reason to pay attention to it. It is required for an NGSPA Championship (or RU Ch.) so my dogs have certificates for both AF and AKC and the rest is sort of irrelevant to me personally.

My dogs' sire was DNA'd, but the dam died just a year or two before DNA became available so it is not possible to get her DNA. I don't care, she was my dog, the pups were born in my closet, and my first view of Spot was his butt hanging out of her mouth, so I am pretty sure she was the mother of them all.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by ACooper » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:43 pm

Where you opposed to Dna testing of your dogs? Do you think breeders are opposed, for, or indifferent for the most part?

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:08 pm

Are you asking me? No, I am not opposed. I have DNA'd both my dogs. There was no way to DNA their mother at the time that I know of. DNA testing for canines is not very old, to my recollection it became available around 2002. Most people I know are in favor of it. You would have to ask the show people why they aren't.

But you have to understand the question you are asking. To "DNA a dog" to most of us still means to just get a DNA footprint from which parentage can be determined, not breed. Up until the last 12 months none of the commercial companies was willing to say they could establish breed, at least not where GSP's are concerned. Bear in mind that many breeds, particularly the German breeds, are a combination of breeds in the genetically-not-very-distant past. The GSP has a number of things in it, including English pointer bred into it in the early 1900's. The GWP is part GSP, etc. I followed some of the early results on DNA used to determine breed, and am still not convinced they can do it with sufficient certainty. The one DNA test that is available that helps determine whether there has been a hybrid outcross, is the hidden coat color test, in which they can determine if the dog carries a recessive gene for a non-shorthair color such as lemon. And yes, I have had hidden coat color tests done on both my dogs, and they have no hidden recessives.

The bottom line and my own personal opinion is that requiring DNA and building up a parentage database is the best way to go. But it is not realistic to expect the breeder to do that on each pup. At $35 per pup, an average litter of pups is going to cost the breeder $280 to DNA, not to mention the parents. It already costs a small fortune to breed a good litter. I would agree with a requirement of DNA'ng the parents before registering a litter though. But as I said, you would have to get the show people to agree to vote for that, because that is where the opposition to DNA requirements came from.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by R-Heaton » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:21 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:and my first view of Spot was his butt hanging out of her mouth
UH,,, in EP's they come out the other end,,,, but who am I to argue with Spots success. :D

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by postoakshorthairs » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:42 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:
and my first view of Spot was his butt hanging out of her mouth

UH,,, in EP's they come out the other end,,,, but who am I to argue with Spots success.
How do you think we get the tails short.??? its the teeth man! :D :D

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by ACooper » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:54 pm

I understand that dna for breed is far from a perfect science to this point, but even requiring dna for parentage is a step in the right direction just like you said.

I cannot figure why anyone would be opposed to a swab of parents along with a litter registration?

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:10 pm

UH,,, in EP's they come out the other end,,,, but who am I to argue with Spots success.
Hey Richy, I knew there are EP's that are nothing but dung, but never knew it was literally true. :mrgreen:

Actually, she didn't know what was going on, whether to eat him or protect him. He was her first ever pup. So the first I saw of him was about a quarter sized spot on his haunches, the rest was headed down the hatch. He somehow survived. I got him away and she kept trying to swallow him. After the third pup she gave up and decided they were worth keeping and too much trouble to eat. I guess adversity breeds success, or something like that.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:41 pm

BigShooter wrote:Just looking for a little clarity & more info. When AF requires titled dogs to be DNAd, does that mean that the parents had to have ben DNAd also? Until all DNAd dogs have only DNAd parents, are permanently identified and their ID is tied to their DNA, how are red-shirting and substitutiomns prevented?
No it does not. Only the dog that has won the placement must be DNA'ed.

As has been said, the situation is not perfect, by any means, but you start somewhere and continue on. Eventually(and probably in a relatively few years) the vast majority of dogs that are worth breeding to will have a DNA history behind them. All I know is that it was good enough to trip up a National Champion and that was a few years back. Funny thing is, it is nearly impossible, today, to find a white dog puppy for sale that hasn't been pedigreed six ways from Sunday, because if it isn't... you can't sell it. Nobody will touch a white pup whose parents have not been DNA'ed with a ten foot pole because too many folks got burned.

And the database is getting more complete every year.

I would venture to say that the real risks asssociated with flasifying pedigrees are rapidly outstripping the potential rewards, if they already have not, for most .

When it flat ain't worth it to cheat or steal...just about everybody will do what it takes to stay honest, and make sure the other guy does too.

If a breeder of bird dogs does not DNA his brood bit@h@s as well as his studs... I don't think they will be in business too much longer.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:16 pm

Ray is right. As a practical matter, they can't require that the parents be DNA'd because among other things, there are lots of dogs around whose parents died before there was such a thing as DNA'ing a dog. Your own included.

But part of the reason they want the DNA on the dogs with placements is so that if a question comes up, they can investigate, go find the parents if they are still around, and DNA em. Which is what happened with the pointer NC and it didn't check out. So the simple fact that DNA is required is a deterrent to any funny business.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by briarpatch » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Up until the last 12 months none of the commercial companies was willing to say they could establish breed, at least not where GSP's are concerned.
Can you tell us what commercial companies are willing to say they can establish breed now?



The one DNA test that is available that helps determine whether there has been a hybrid outcross, is the hidden coat color test, in which they can determine if the dog carries a recessive gene for a non-shorthair color such as lemon. And yes, I have had hidden coat color tests done on both my dogs,
please tell me more about this test as well and what companies do this test? avaliable website?

thanks for any info


Believe me I am all for dna testing but another problem with dna testing that I could forsee how do you prove the dna came from the actual dog you say it did..
anyone could swab the mouth of his buddies shorthair and send it in with the application for DNA proof of any dog ..of course later the puppies from that dogs DNA wouldn't match in parentage..

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by Wagonmaster » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:54 am

The Canine Heritage Breed test is the one I bought. I have not done it yet though, the dog is not home. http://www.canineheritage.com/breeds.php

I don't know anything about how accurate it is. I thought I would do one just to find out. When breed testing was in the experimental stages, they had some difficulty trying to identify several breeds, and the GSP was one of them. If you think about it, the GSP in the US came from several sources. The German dogs of course, but the German dogs were of very mixed heritage. According to the history books there was quite a bit of pointer breeding around 1900, the Arkwright pointer breeding that produced the black coat was just one of them. Some of the major foundation dogs of the breed were half pointer. Also, quite a bit of the GSP stock in the US came from Danish lines, not German. And there have been imports of GSPs from other countries as well. They establish a breed by taking DNA samples from a number of dogs and using that to establish a DNA pattern. Then they match tested dogs against that pattern. The accuracy depends on how good a job was done in establishing the pattern.

The hidden coat color test is very accurate. There are only two acceptable coat colors for GSP's, white and liver (brown). All the different coat color varieties are combinations of those two, or in the case of solid liver, just one. The liver coat is a recessive gene, so the gene pair needs to be "bb" where "b" is the brown recessive. Both genes in the pair need to be "b." The hidden coat color test looks for other recessives such as red or lemon, in that gene pair. Finding "bb" does not necessarily mean that there has been no hybrid outcross to pointers or something else at any time, in your pups lineage. But it is a pretty good indicator, and it tells you that your dog will not throw off color coats.

DNA testing is partly about deterrence. If someone submits a DNA sample on a dog and a question comes up, the breed registry can require a new test. If that test does not match the old test, the owner/breeder is going to be in alot of trouble. So you are right, it is possible that someone could sample the wrong dog. But they can also get caught if their competitors raise a question, and that will invariably happen if the dog is successful.

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by briarpatch » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:32 am

The Canine Heritage Breed Test is not designed for use as a purebred or paternity verification test and is not an established legal tool
Not to be argumenative but the above statement from the website you mentioned makes me beleive this is not an accurrate test to prove a dog is actually a purebred..

Rather it is like the Mars test which clearly states that the test is not to prove purebred dogs but rather to give you an idea of what dogs make up your mutt if you want to know..and they (mars) clearly print on the DNA certificate they are only 90% accurate..
The hidden coat color test is very accurate. There are only two acceptable coat colors for GSP's, white and liver (brown). All the different coat color varieties are combinations of those two, or in the case of solid liver, just one. The liver coat is a recessive gene, so the gene pair needs to be "bb" where "b" is the brown recessive. Both genes in the pair need to be "b." The hidden coat color test looks for other recessives such as red or lemon, in that gene pair. Finding "bb" does not necessarily mean that there has been no hybrid outcross to pointers or something else at any time, in your pups lineage. But it is a pretty good indicator, and it tells you that your dog will not throw off color coats
and again not to be agumenative just wishing to learn more, but where did you come up with this one that there are only 2 acceptable coat colors ..
The German dogs of course, but the German dogs were of very mixed heritage. According to the history books there was quite a bit of pointer breeding around 1900, the Arkwright pointer breeding that produced the black coat was just one of them
That statement alone makes at least 3 acceptable colors and since the gsp was obviously made up of numerous different breeds whats to say one of those reccessive genes would not come forward in a breeding..Less likely maybe, but to say for sure it will never happen?

I have found it very intersteresting the color part of this, where people claim old world continental GSPs only had certain colors in their DNA ( not that I am even 100% sure exactly what an old world continental GSP is, ) but I dont believe they had DNA testing in the days of old.. so how would we possibly know today what colors were in their DNA.

I am by no means a DNA expert but want to learn more..
Please help me more to understand the logic behind this

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by kumate » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:08 pm

I think requiring dna on the sire and dam before the litter can be registered is a great idea, then the pup buyers could swab their pup, send it in to be dna'd and in the case of the akc they could verify parentage. That is about all you could ask for is that pup c did indeed come from dog a and dog b. Without requiring it some breeders will dna the sire but not the "bleep" or vise versa. Some just dont put much energy into it because it isnt required and if the pups sell why bother. It sure would give most buyers piece of mind

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Re: DNA testing and events

Post by briarpatch » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:51 am

The hidden coat color test is very accurate. There are only two acceptable coat colors for GSP's, white and liver (brown). All the different coat color varieties are combinations of those two, or in the case of solid liver, just one. The liver coat is a recessive gene, so the gene pair needs to be "bb" where "b" is the brown recessive. Both genes in the pair need to be "b." The hidden coat color test looks for other recessives such as red or lemon, in that gene pair. Finding "bb" does not necessarily mean that there has been no hybrid outcross to pointers or something else at any time, in your pups lineage. But it is a pretty good indicator, and it tells you that your dog will not throw off color coats.
and again not to be agumenative just wishing to learn more, but where did you come up with this one that there are only 2 acceptable coat colors ..
The German dogs of course, but the German dogs were of very mixed heritage. According to the history books there was quite a bit of pointer breeding around 1900, the Arkwright pointer breeding that produced the black coat was just one of them

That statement alone makes at least 3 acceptable colors and since the gsp was obviously made up of numerous different breeds whats to say one of those reccessive genes would not come forward in a breeding..Less likely maybe, but to say for sure it will never happen?

I have found it very intersteresting the color part of this, where people claim old world continental GSPs only had certain colors in their DNA ( not that I am even 100% sure exactly what an old world continental GSP is, ) but I dont believe they had DNA testing in the days of old.. so how would we possibly know today what colors were in their DNA.

I am by no means a DNA expert but want to learn more..
Please help me more to understand the logic behind this
Since noone decided to answer this I chose to look into it further myself here is what I found,
Coat and Nose Color Test (Code: C128)
Test Description:

DNA Test:
Now, by DNA testing, we can successfully predict the future coat as well as nose colors of puppies. This information can be crucial to satisfy breed standards for dog registration. Using DNA testing to determine the hidden colours of the dam and sire can assist you in choosing the best partners for your breeding stock.
C128 - CANINE COAT AND NOSE COLOR TEST
German Shorthaired Pointer

DNA Test:
Presence of black, red/orange and brown colors, and black or brown nose in the following breeds:
- German Longhaired Pointer
- German Shorthaired Pointer
- German Wirehaired Pointer

The nose is brown, the larger the better, and with nostrils well opened and broad. A spotted nose is not desirable. A flesh colored nose disqualifies. The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a solid white dog will be disqualified.
Imported dogs are occasionally black.
So from the only website I found http://www.healthgene.com/canine/colort ... breedid=27
reffering to doing a hidden color test, it is refering to a test that will lesson the chances of your dogs throwing off colors by testing their DNA for the colors that are found in the GSP american/akc/gspca standards nowhere does it make any mention this test proves if your dog is a gsp or not..
just lets you know what colors puppies the 2 dogs being mated will likely throw and if they are the same as the american breed standards colors.

and of course there is the people who read the Der Deustch Kurzhaar book http://www.dogstuff.info/coat_colour_gsp_byrne.html
and say yes she done her homework so these are the only acceptable dna alleles found in a GSP, below is taken from her book
The particular alleles of these genes, present in a particular breed, however, are in many cases quite limited, and the appearance of a colour or pattern not normally found in a breed is usually indicative of cross-breeding. For example, a “GSP” with orange or lemon patches is most likely to be a cross-bred animal
Somehow I believe these people are missing or skipping by the words USUALLY INDICTATIVE and MOST LIKELY to be a crossbred in the above statement of Gergina Byrne's book

If a DNA sample is like a fingerprint and every DNA sample is slightly different how do we know exactly for sure what DNA alleles (colors) was in the founders of the breed.. as I said before they obviously didnt have this testing in the days of old. So from my very limited understanding I would have to say there is noway at present to determine if a GSP is or is not a GSP by color alleles..


Perhaps someone with a better understanding of this, can give us more info..
I would love to learn more, as I am sure others would as well..

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