male or female?

[collinedward]

After my disaster with my last pup I went and put a deposit on a 8 week old gsp .. My next decision is on a male or a female. I have a 5y/o male now. I really don't have much interest in breeding . Most likely get her fixed.. Do females get fat or get a barrel chest after they get fixed ? Any benefits to one or the other?

[bobman]

there is no difference and no they dont get fat

I would go with the female and avoid any possibiity of a issue with your male

[Brittguy]

All the veterinarians and books say it will not make them fat. I have had two that were spayed because of pyometra. One gained a little extra weight. She was older and retired from trials. The other never gain any extra weight but I only kept her about one year after the operation so I don't know how she finally turned out. Now after saying that my general observations are that most gain a lot of extra weight. Maybe it is just up to the owner to monitor the diet.

[kerplunk105]

Best of luck with your new pup. I second the vote on getting a female. Its better to have different genders.

[collinedward]

Cool ...I was leeaning towards the female myself. At 8 weeks old what should I look for in a puppy?

[bobman]

I have 4 spayed shorthairs and one EP none are even a pound overweight, the shorthairs are almost 13

[kerplunk105]

Cool ...I was leeaning towards the female myself. At 8 weeks old what should I look for in a puppy?

I am reading, what I think, is a pretty decent book. It has a few chapters dedicated to choosing/getting a pup.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Way-Train-Yo ... 0679507507

[collinedward]

i have never got a pup this young before..

[mudhunter]

I have two males and two females, most of the Dominance Problems I have are between the females so go figure.

As far as picking out an 8 week old pup its a crap shoot, you can't tell too much at that age. Pick the right Litter is what you need to do, other than that I would just look for a healthy pup that likes to explore and has the look you like.

[jbr03]

I have a 2.5 year old EP who i spayed right after her first heat, around 10 months. there are certain weeks where she gets underweight, so from my experience, they dont get fat after getting fixed. i second picking a good litter when looking at such young dogs. what i always try to do is pick one that looks fat and healthy and ill try to finger out certain personalities, although its always a gamble. keep your dog healthy and let her see plenty of birds and you should be good to go.

[collinedward]

female it is...

[vzkennels]

You just need to remember "NOT" to have her spayed untill fully mature mentaly & physicaly.

[Steve007]

Good advice from the previous poster(vzkennels). Spaying is not a mistake, but spaying TOO EARLY certainly is. Think after her first heat (8-10 months, roughly), but before her second (six months later). Don't get conned into doing so pre-first heat by those with no knowledge of a dog's mental development.

[Ron R]

I'm just curious as to why you can'nt get a pup spayed at a young age? I have never heard that before or maybe I have and just did'nt pay attention.
Thanks

[vzkennels]

The dog needs to mature both mentaly & phsyicaly before being spayed,google some info on it.

[Ron R]

vzkennels, What I have found is that you can have a pup spayed or neutered as young as 6 to 8 weeks old with no harmful effects. Overall, younger animals recover faster with less pain. I did find that some vets prefer to wait until 16 weeks or until they are dewormed and have had they're vaccinations. Nowhere did I find that you should wait until a dog has matured mentaly and physicaly. I'm not trying to debate it, just to learn.

[sgc]

What was your disaster with your last pup? Just curious in case it helps me down the road here.
Thanks,

[vzkennels]

Who is telling you they can be done that young the vet or people that have had it done?I can't speak from experience because I have never had a dog spayed or neutered but have read about the plus & minus.I have also read from people that have dealt with the results after having it done before the dog is fully mature.It's your dog & your call but from what I have read in males the pluses & minuses are about even to have it done at ANY AGE.Females only slightly does the pluses out weigh the minuses.All I'm saying is do some research & then make up your own mind.My vet is not one of those that believes in spaying & neutering every dog that comes thru the door but I have been using him for over 20 yrs so he is not from this new Generation of vets that have it preached to them while in school.Maybe a couple vets we have here will post on this subject but it's all in the archives here already if you look it up.

[Ron R]

I just googled it like you suggested.

[vzkennels]

Ok Ron here is a page & study you should read that has to do with spaying & neutering in general.The early spaying & neutering has been discussed here on GDF numerous times with the majority saying to wait untill fully mature & stating the reasons. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longterm ... indogs.pdf
I personally believe that spaying & neutering is done mostly for the benefit of the onwners more so then the dogs except for certain medical conditions.JMO

[Shadow]

think vzkennels has it right-

always understood that if you spay or neuter before they've reached 1 year then that pup will always be a pup/act like a pup

sort of like stopping the maturity process

would you have it done on a child

[Ron R]

vz kennels, I was just responding to a comment that you made regarging spaying a young pup. I obviously was unaware of prior discusssions regarding that topic. Thanks for the info that you provided.

shadow, you can never,ever, ever compare a dog to a child like that. The list is very long as to the things that we do to our dogs that you would never do to a child(e-collars, rub their nose in pee, make them sleep outside, nevermind having them spayed). I personally have'nt done anything but ask a question as to why should'nt you have a dog spayed young.

[ezzy333]

vz kennels, I was just responding to a comment that you made regarging spaying a young pup. I obviously was unaware of prior discusssions regarding that topic. Thanks for the info that you provided.

shadow, you can never,ever, ever compare a dog to a child like that. The list is very long as to the things that we do to our dogs that you would never do to a child(e-collars, rub their nose in pee, make them sleep outside, nevermind having them spayed). I personally have'nt done anything but ask a question as to why should'nt you have a dog spayed young.

All of the things you have mentioned has been done over the years to many children including neutering. We think we know more today, which in my mind is still in doubt, but there are somethings we have learned. And early nuetering is one of the things. We in the dog world are about 50 years behind the curve but in practically every other domestic spiecie we have seen the differences. We neuter the animals we eat because they do not muscle as much and the meat stays more tender. There are some we nueter so they will grow much bigger, and many we nueter to change behavior problems. Dogs suffer the same results. Look back at the past threads on here and you will see a greater chance of tendon problems, growth problems, and there are even trade-offs on heath problems.

As VZ says do what you like, but there is plenty of evidence that shows what might be the results that you don't want to see. And there sure isn't much that can happen because you wait.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

collinedward -

I believe it is possible to select a pup for personality at eight weeks. I have used an abbreviated version of the Volhard Puppy Aptitude test and have found it to be an accurate predicter of the personality that the pup will have as an adult. Specifically, i have always selected for very bold dogs and the test has accurately precdicted that four times out of the last four times.


Check out this link:
http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm


I use the Social Attraction test, the Following test, the Restraint test and the Retrieving test.

I have found that the restraint test is a very accurate predicter of boldness. A pup that absolutely will not settle or submit for more than sixty seconds is one cold, bold dog.

I have also read where the Seeing Eye foundation has taken to using some kind of retrieving test for dog recruits. The washout rate for seeing eye dogs was quite high, anbd the costs associated with washouts were staggering. Appoarently, dogs who scored high on a retrieving test as puppies had a much higher success rate at making it through the training and becoming seeing eye dogs.


One other thing I have done is sit on the floor or ground among the entirew litter of pups. Last time i did that, the one that ran up my chest, looked me squarely in the eyes and then bit me full on the nose(and drew blood by the way), then turned and fought off all the other dogs to defend her "prize" was the one I took home. That is the kind of dog i want, but then I am a little nuts.

RayG

[Ron R]

I'm at a loss of words here. First, I never stated that I was ever going to get a pup or dog spayed. I just asked a question. Second, A person should never compare a child to an animal - for example; if you do that to your dog but would you do it to your a child. I understand that horrible things has been done to children but that is not what I was referring to. I don't think it's ok to humanize an animal. I will leave it at that.

[Shadow]

vzkennels, What I have found is that you can have a pup spayed or neutered as young as 6 to 8 weeks old with no harmful effects.

you stated it- man- that is rediculous
and think about this- why would you do something to your young dog that you wouldn't do to your young child-
- now days it's no punishment or harsh words to kids- maybe it should be so to your young dogs

we have many different opinions as to what is right-

[Ron R]

Shadow, That statement came after I googled it as suggested by vzkennels. That is the information I came up with. I could'nt find anything negative on spaying pups young. Apparently it is done all the time by rescue groups and animal shelters and I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I did'nt know and thats why I asked.

You guys are going to drive me to drink. Nevermind, I was going to do that anyway (I'm off work tomorrow).

Lighten up and lets leave our children out of this.

[GsPJustin]

Not sure whats around the google space as far as fixing young dogs. Some people or organizations promote it because they think that will stop all the problems later on. However that just isn't the case.

The reason that it was said not to fix the dogs at a young age is because they need the hormones and testosterone they produce naturally for bone and muscle development. I can't tell you if your dog will get fat after you fix it, but I can tell you that the amount of exercise and conditioning needed to keep the dog in "good shape" will increase dramatically. I have seen many dogs fixed at a young age because they were placed out of a rescue. They grew up incorrectly proportioned, and had very thin bone for there size.

What I can tell you from personal experience... I have only lived with 1 dog that was neutered. The other 2 have been unaltered. The neutered dog would swell up like a wet sponge if he got a few cups of food to many. The dog sitting next to me now could eat the whole 34lb bag of food and not go a pound over 70... (some exaggerations were used)

[birddogger]

vzkennels, What I have found is that you can have a pup spayed or neutered as young as 6 to 8 weeks old with no harmful effects.

you stated it- man- that is rediculous
and think about this- why would you do something to your young dog that you wouldn't do to your young child-
- now days it's no punishment or harsh words to kids- maybe it should be so to your young dogs

we have many different opinions as to what is right-

What I don't understand is why one poster is getting ganged up on for asking a question. I didn't see anywhere that Ron R intended to spay or neuter a puppy. All I could see was that he was trying to gain some information and then just reported what he had found when he googled the subject, as was recommended. I also don't understand why it was suggested he google it. With the knowledge on this forum, why didn't someone just answer his question? As far as the comparison between neutering a dog and a child is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard.

[cheezehead]

i am speaking from experience with both males and females, pointers and flushers. females have more dominance issues than males. usually the males will have a little p$$$ contest, and it's over and done with. females always seem to be looking for the chance to get their digs in. even around the house, the males have been easier/less impact than the females. i know i'm new to the board, but i've had dogs for over 35yrs. my vet and several dog trainers have made the same observations to me. 6yrs ago, when i got my lab, the females were the way to go. now i have an 9mo male britt, and the advice i was given was to get a male. so far, no worries. much easier to deal with than the females i've had in the past. the vet also recommended to wait until the male was 2yrs old before neutering him. he said they are noticing more joint and soft tissue injuries with male dogs who haven't reached their full growth before they were fixed.

[birddogger]

i am speaking from experience with both males and females, pointers and flushers. females have more dominance issues than males. usually the males will have a little p$$$ contest, and it's over and done with. females always seem to be looking for the chance to get their digs in. even around the house, the males have been easier/less impact than the females. i know i'm new to the board, but i've had dogs for over 35yrs. my vet and several dog trainers have made the same observations to me. 6yrs ago, when i got my lab, the females were the way to go. now i have an 9mo male britt, and the advice i was given was to get a male. so far, no worries. much easier to deal with than the females i've had in the past. the vet also recommended to wait until the male was 2yrs old before neutering him. he said they are noticing more joint and soft tissue injuries with male dogs who haven't reached their full growth before they were fixed.

It took a while but somebody finally answered the question. Thanks cheezehead.

[RayGubernat]

vzkennels, What I have found is that you can have a pup spayed or neutered as young as 6 to 8 weeks old with no harmful effects.

you stated it- man- that is rediculous
and think about this- why would you do something to your young dog that you wouldn't do to your young child-
- now days it's no punishment or harsh words to kids- maybe it should be so to your young dogs

we have many different opinions as to what is right-

What I don't understand is why one poster is getting ganged up on for asking a question. I didn't see anywhere that Ron R intended to spay or neuter a puppy. All I could see was that he was trying to gain some information and then just reported what he had found when he googled the subject, as was recommended. I also don't understand why it was suggested he google it. With the knowledge on this forum, why didn't someone just answer his question? As far as the comparison between neutering a dog and a child is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard.

Maybe here is your answer:

vzkennels, What I have found is that you can have a pup spayed or neutered as young as 6 to 8 weeks old with no harmful effects. Overall, younger animals recover faster with less pain. I did find that some vets prefer to wait until 16 weeks or until they are dewormed and have had they're vaccinations. Nowhere did I find that you should wait until a dog has matured mentaly and physicaly. I'm not trying to debate it, just to learn.

He asked the question, which was fine, but immediately came back with the above pronouncement. That indicates to me that he had his mind made up when he first posed the question and was just asking a seemingly innocent, legitimate wquestion for discussion when he already had an agenda. Whether my conclusion is right or wrong, that is the way it appeared to me and apparently to others as well.

So he got jumped on. Oh well.

And by the way, you can put me down on the side of thosw who advocate waiting until the animal is both sexually AND physically mature.

RayG



RayG

[Shadow]

very good Ray-

I've hunted mine with a couple folks who did have their pups spayed before their first heat- one female I hunted with for 5 years just never came out of her puppy stage- and to this day he hasn't been able to get a handle on controling her- so in fact he treats her like a young child and lets her have her way- and can't hunt that dog without a shocker colar- what went wrong- he didn't understand a puppy to adult- read all sorts of material but failed to understand there are no set rules

what I've seen with mine and others is that that first year is critical in the pups developement- you do your handling based on how the pup handles the presure, with reinforcement based on how the pup is maturing- so in effect- you need the pup to mature to get to the full potential

when I say one should look at the pup as he would a young child- I'm meaning that you have to learn to adapt to the pup as it progresses to maturity- read the pup- read the child- I'm not a believer in using shocker colars- nor am I a believer in shock collars on a young pup- from birth to adult- you need to be able to read the pup- if something happens to disrupt that growth/learning period you are just asking for problems

[vzkennels]

I want to state that I never jumped on anyone just told him to google it which he did but out of pages of info he picked the one that stated they can or should be done at 6 to 8 wks old,the youngest I had ever seen anyone post.I had NEVER seen that young before so I think he was trying to tell every one else that didn't know better that the younger the better which is the WRONG INFO to go by.The reason I didn,t come out & tell him why is because it has been discussed so many times before & can be found here in the archives.

[Streenie79]

FWIW, I absolutely agree with Ray, VZKennels, Ezzy and Shadow on the subject of spaying, or neutering. A pup needs to be physically, mentally, and sexually mature before being spayed or neutered. While there's an abundance of information out there to support this conclusion, it also strikes me as a issue of common sense, particularly when it comes to the idea of spaying a pup as young as 6 to 8 weeks old. It's not a matter of whether a pup of that age can endure the rigors of a surgical procedure, but rather how pup's hormonal systems, and hence their physical, mental and sexual development, are affected by spaying or neutering. IMHO, spaying/neutering isn't a bad thing generally....spaying/neutering too early is.

As for the upset reflected by some to one poster's query..."Would you do this to a child?....", I think the indignation expressed is a bit over the top, or perhaps out of context. I highly doubt Shadow was literally comparing the "value" of a child with the "value" of a pup, and I certainly didn't take it that way. Rather, I'm guessing he was making a statement about the many affects possible when hormonal systems are "adjusted" prior to physical, mental, and sexual maturity... whether in the case of a child or of a pup. This certainly isn't morally or emotionally "equating" the child with the pup....it's an observation, or perhaps medical fact, about the impact of hormonal systems on the healthy development of both.

So yes, let's lighten up a bit and not make this discussion into something it isn't.

Streenie79

[Shadow]

After my disaster with my last pup I went and put a deposit on a 8 week old gsp .. My next decision is on a male or a female. I have a 5y/o male now. I really don't have much interest in breeding . Most likely get her fixed.. Do females get fat or get a barrel chest after they get fixed ? Any benefits to one or the other?

you stated your choice is a female- and you've never had one as young as you are getting- I think you'll enjoy your bonding from that early age- some say a female is easier- maybe- some say a female is easier to housebreak- maybe- you might find the female needs a lot more personal attention from you- but then again- nothing is for sure

I think you should go and spend some time with that litter if you can- sit down and see what catches your eye- ask the breeder for his opinion- at 8 weeks some things will show- but it's how you two progress from there that is the main concern

depending on how you feed, type, % level of fat and protien, and watch the pup will determine how she'll look- course it all has to do with how active the dog is- I've had spayed, neutered, and non- never seen an issue with barrel chested or fat- but take a look at the mother and father- your's should follow along with the lines- I'd say if you can always feel the ribs and backbone you are pretty much on- don't overfeed the pup or switch food- and decide if you are going to feed dog food or give a little table scraps

[Ron R]

I would like to clear this up. I had no agenda to debate this subject as I stated " I'm not trying to debate it, just to learn". That being said, I have no problem debating about a subject that I believe in or one that I have knowledge of. What I do have a problem with is being taken out context wich is what happened here. My question to vzkennels was a sincere inquary to gain more knowledge regarding the subject. It does'nt seem that I have a very good reputation here and I would like to correct that. Time will tell.