Walking your gun dog on a leash

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:18 pm

I took my GSP through an obedience class when we first got him and he did pretty well. Teaching him to heel while walking on a leash proved to be the most difficult task. Well, two years later and he will pull you like a freight train during walks. If I use the pinch collar, he'll back off from a "full out pull", but he still wants to lead and zig zag in front of you. We were taught that the dog's head should be right beside your left knee for a proper heel and the leash should have slack.

I'm looking for any other gundog owners that have or had similar problems, but found a solution. A dog trainer once told me even though he's a hunter, he still needs to know the difference between leashed walks and getting his free range field time. We covered the stop and turn around technique in class when he's on a leash and wants to lead....I can say this works better in a classroom than it does outdoors when you have so many more distractions going on.

I know I'm the one that probably needs more training with this, but the dog can be pretty thick headed during walks.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:39 pm

I found that same problem with my GSP's. Both of mine pull my wife around the neighborhood every night, but that is a matter of her allowing the dogs to lead her! It seems like the dogs only respond to me, but more so because I will take no crap from them. I found when I was training "heel" the leash worked to a point, then I had problems. When a removed the pinch collar & leash and went totally to an e-collar, i had better luck getting the "heel" where I felt it should be. If I walk them without a leash, I can get them one on each side of me at the "heel"...almost always. JMO
Bill L.

jt807 · Post by **jt807** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:47 pm

GSP 4 me wrote:... If I use the pinch collar, he'll back off from a "full out pull", but he still wants to lead and zig zag in front of you. ...

Does he want to lead and zig zag in front of you, or does he actually do it? If he actually does it, then please don't take offense, but it is the handler and not the dog. He does it because he wants to, and you let him.

If he doesn't do it when you walk him with a pinch collar, then what is the problem? Just never walk him without his pinch collar on, and the problem will immediately go away.

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:32 pm

If I give him enough leash, he'll get out in front and do the zig zag thing. I keep the leash shorter to avoid this from happening.

My hope was to use the pinch collar as a training aide so that once he walked properly on the leash, we could do the same when switching back to a regular collar....no go.

I have an e-collar as well, so if someone would like talk me through how they got their dog to heel with that method I'm all ears.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:33 pm

do a search on here for "heeling stick" make one and use it

WingmanCA · Post by **WingmanCA** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Get a Command Lead - aka Delmar Smith Wonder Lead. Properly used, it will get your dog walking with you and heeling in short order.

Ecw21 · Post by **Ecw21** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:35 pm

I second the Command Lead. It works like a charm and is great for 'refreshers' when your dog knows the command but gets a little sloppy...I have seen them available at Bass Pro Shops recently. I used to have the same problem and she walks at heel really well for me. But...to an earlier poster's point...she doesn't respect anyone else on a leash and pulls like a sled dog when others walk her. Fine for me...not so much for them.

Eric

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:51 pm

start all over- back yard make it short walks of 1 min. and jerk hard on the leash every time the dog pulls- keep doing this till he walks easily by your side- see how many 1 min walks like this it takes - one of you will give in

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu May 28, 2009 5:49 pm

You could do a half hitch around the dog's waist with the lead. They will not pull with the lead in this orientation. They soon learn to leave a little slack in the cord. if they do not, turn abruptly, either niety degrees or a complete about face and force the dog to go with you. YOU must lead...dog must follow.

As a longer term fix, I would insist that the dog "heel" in the classic sense. At the knee, not in front, not to the side. If you want to get the dog's attention immediately, use a checkcord and twirl the end of the cord so the cord is a BIG propeller...right in front of your knee.
After getting clipped in the schnozzola a couple of times for surging ahead, the dog will learn to walk quietly by your side. Once that happens you can start walking with a loose lead and just rocking the cord back and forth in front of your knee. You can transition to the reguslar lead and if the dog starts to act up, just spin the lead a few times and it should settle right down. They really do not like getting clopped in the schnoz by a rope or a lead. I know it stings, but I think it hurts their pride more than anything.

The prong collar should have also worked. If you start with a slack collar and the dog pull it tight, do not haul back. In a test of strength and will, most women will lose to a larger dog. Instead give a continuing series of short jerks and turn and head in the opposite direction, continuing with the short sharp jerks.

The spinning checkcord also works with a prong collar.

RayG

texscala · Post by **texscala** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:09 pm

My pup had a hard time on a leash for her first year. When I decided to go on a long backpacking/hunting trip I realized I needed my dog to be at heel for the whole hike in and out so she had something left when the time to hunt came. I worked hard with the ecollar and a heel stick (I used a hiking pole) and she did great. I now often have her at heel as we hike into a hunting spot.

When we walk to the park my 2 year old can walk her on a leash with no problems. For me it all started with heel.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Fri May 29, 2009 7:46 am

Leena, my 7mo GSP just doesnt seem to understand the heel concept. I have tried every nice/positive way of teaching her that has worked with all my past dogs. I dont like using them, but I am going to get her a choke collar this weekend.

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Fri May 29, 2009 1:06 pm

My 3 yo male GSP pulls like a mule to the point where my shoulder is numb. If we walk on the sidewalk he will walk by my side but as soon as we get on the street he zig zags like crazy just as you say.

I use the gentle leader now and it is working better. I still have to snap him back every once in a while. He is so hard headed that it doesn't matter how many times you correct him, he wants to be in front.

The one remedy.....walk him in the heat and he will not want to pull at all!!!

edondero · Post by **edondero** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:03 pm

i feel for you. Lacey will only walk properly, with a loose lead and at my knee if she believes that the walk is into a bird field and I will soon release her if she heels properly. So "going for a walk" and defintely "going for a run" is out of the question. Which is really frustratiing, because I wish I could go on evening strolls with her around the neighborhood and would really like to run a few miles and burn off energy (hers, not mine!)

birddogsunlimited · Post by **birddogsunlimited** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:40 am

i can walk any one of my three and they have great manners on the leash but as soon as you take two of them it becomes race and they will try there hardest to yank me along.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:07 pm

My Lab heels perfectly. I think she came trained at 8 weeks from the breeder LOL You would think with her heeling perfectly, Leena would get the idea... :roll:

Gurgle · Post by **Gurgle** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:22 pm

How old is he and how many obedience classes did you do? My Lab is 19 months, we are on our 5th obedience class, it's an advanced pre-trial class though, and I still sometimes have to work like the "bleep" to have him focus on me and thus abide by the HEEL when we are outside in distractions.

I found the same thing with the prong. It gave me control over a highly distracted pup and did allow me to train through those distractions. I couldn't have held him and trained at the same time without the prong. Now I have set aside the prong and substituted a show choker that sits up high. It's braided cloth, I think chain would be better but I can't find a similar one in chain. Anyway, here's what is working for us now.

Heeling on left. Leash in right hand, thumb through handle, another loop of leash in right hand. Left hand ready to grab leash too if need be. Loose leash. Pup surges ahead, I drop loop in right hand but still have a hold of handle. I change direction. He feels the slack then hits the end of the leash. He won't do that again for a while. What happens is he learns to read the slack. You let go of the leash, don't jerk it. Constant jerking doesn't work for some, many think they are sled dogs and just lean into it even more that way. By letting him hit the end on his own he learns it was his move that caused the end of the leash to catch him, not your action, and he will modify. Eventually all you have to do is let the leash go completely slack and he will get back into heel.

No guarantees, dogs are all different but is the method that worked best for me. Worth a try? Try to change direction lots before he surges and before you have to.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:23 pm

Labs and GSP's just live life differently. My lab has always been easy to walk but the GSP's seem to have a genetic need to drive out and although I can train them to heel, I SWEAR by the GENTLE leader. Watch the dumb DVD and fit it correctly. It's tighter and higher than I place an ecollar, but fitted correctly I can walk a dog nicely after about 5 minutes of work! I love this invention! Easier to use and more effective than a choke collar and pinch collar. Yes I still have to jerk every so often but I can establish a nice gentle walking with a loose lead with an easy tug that my 5'3' self can handle the 70 lb male even when a cat or squirrel crosses the road.

Only headache is the rural folks out hear rarely fail to ask if it's some kind of muzzle :roll: but after I show them on their own dog that has never even had a leash on they are hooked too!

naperdog · Post by **naperdog** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:33 pm

the gentle leader has worked well for me too, but you are right about it taking at least 5 minutes to put on.

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:27 pm

My GSP is approximately 5 yrs-old now (we got him from a shelter that put his est. age at 2 yrs-old at the time of adoption). We did a basic obedience course that lasted around 10 weeks. We did not continue with the other levels of training offered at the time.

Ah yes, the gentle lead. The trainer told us about this product during the first few weeks of class and we purchased one with the hopes it would solve all our heeling problems. The gentle lead seemed like a simple solution as it worked very similar to a horse bridle. If you can control the head of the animal, then the rest of the body should follow. Well, we encountered two problems. First, the dog disliked the product so much, that he would try to swat the lead off his head every opportunity he got. Second, you are right about putting it on...takes a long time...especially when the dog hates it so much that he does his best to manuever his head around the device. Our trainer even gave us the ok to go back to a traditional collar when she observed these actions in class. YES>>> people constantly thought the lead was some type of muzzle and they certainly reacted differently when we walked him. Many pedestrians automatically assumed he was a menance and would stay clear of us. :roll:

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:54 pm

I like the command lead ..some pitch a fit when you first put it on and they realize they don't lead the show any more but you remain fair and light they come around quickly

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:53 am

yep, they all pitch a little fit with the gentle leader too. When fitted correctly and the lead held correctly, I ve never had a dog able to get it off. You have to keep up the tug straight up so they cannot get their head down to the ground and eventually they lose their balence and cannot stand on two legs. usually less than a minute. For me, I have used it with 6 dogs now, and it's a contest of wills at first with some treats when they are tolerating it well... like I said watch the dumb DVD and expect a little more resistance since birddogs are :roll: sometimes. I have used it on a coon hound with major attention issues (nose rules his life) and he is a new dog on the lead... he took about fifteen minutes of work the first day and about a week of 2 times daily walks with no time out of the kennel unless he was walking with it on, to learn to like it. Now he jumps and wags when he sees it, but he was the hardest I have worked with. His owners use it all the time and the 5 year old son can walk him on it and control him.

I guess there is a factor of tolerance involved. Dogs (in all situations) need to let you touch their head, look at their teeth hold their ears, and touch their feet. You may have to command them to be still, but This is part of what they have to do be a good dog. There is a point in which you should be able to hold your dogs still and they should let you put something on their head, and should not fight it until you let go of them. They may have a look of disgust, but you can hold the head still. If you can't get to that point then maybe a little more respect for your commands, and basic grooming training may be needed before leash training of any kind.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:05 am

I like to GL. My issue is weaning off of it...I actually want to teach her to heel, not just dont pull when the GL is on?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:09 am

Never have had a problem just snapping a leash or CC on to the collar and leading the dog. if it gets a head of you jerk it back or use a stick to keep the dog where you want it. The secret is consistant repitition. Once the dog knows it can't do something the problem is solved. But they do like to pull till you convince them that they will walk where you want them.

Ezzy

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:59 pm

Thanks for all the replies thus far. I really appreciate the advice.

Elizabeth, Leena is one good looking GSP!

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:38 pm

I use a choke collar and lead. It can take me a day or up to a week to teach heel, depending on the dog. Start out walking and tug the lead saying heel at the same time. Do that for a few min. Then you walk and as soon as the dog pulls forward quitely and quickly change directions and walk the opposite way. No need to tug because the dog will tug itself when it reaches the end of the rope. Keep changing directions every time the dog wants to pull. Then go back to the first step and command heel as you tug. You'll have the dog heeling and looking up at you in no time.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:01 pm

remmy wrote:I use a choke collar and lead. It can take me a day or up to a week to teach heel, depending on the dog. Start out walking and tug the lead saying heel at the same time. Do that for a few min. Then you walk and as soon as the dog pulls forward quitely and quickly change directions and walk the opposite way. No need to tug because the dog will tug itself when it reaches the end of the rope. Keep changing directions every time the dog wants to pull. Then go back to the first step and command heel as you tug. You'll have the dog heeling and looking up at you in no time.

I've tried this tons and tons of times. I never let her pull on the leash. She just doesnt seem to get it. My hands get sore from always having to correct her

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:18 pm

When the dog starts to pass the seam on you pant leg do a 45 degree angle away and let her come to the end of the lead and let her learn to catch up

also very important to each her a cue to go in front and work a quartering pattern or you can get them to sticky to your side

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:26 pm

I don't quite follow you. If you never let her pull you on the leash then you can't use this training method. The dog has to pull you otherwise you don't really have much of a "heel" problem. This method works wonders for me. Maybe your timing is off?Are you using a choke collar? Don't use too much lead. I only use 6ft. In the beginning stages I am constantly changing directions. As soon as the dog gets out in front I turn around. Again As soon as the dog gets out I turn around again...constantly. Make sure the dog is not watching you. She can't know that you turned around until she hits the end of the lead on her own. I've never encountered a problem.

As far as the hands being sore, I found a nice 6ft leash with a lower handle on it perfect for teaching heel. Don't remember where I bought it though.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:55 am

Sorry, I meant I dont let her get away with pulling at all. I'm always correcting her. I've never tried the changing directions thing. I'll have to give that a try!

I usually just tell her heel and give her a jerk. I use either a easy walk harness, (http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=d ... escription), or a flat buckle collar. I really do need to pick up a choker.

I've trained so many dogs heel before. I've never had one that was this...dense

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:33 am

Walking correctly on a leash really should be one of the easiest and could be the most important thing to teach your dog. Think of it this way, it's a matter of respect! If your dog is dragging you down the street, then it's totally disrespecting you and your authority. If you can't control him while on a lead, you will never control him off lead.

Teaching heel is not a one time thing, it's a constant, everyday reminder of who is really in charge. Lose that harness, lose the buckle collar and get yourself a simple slip lead. A slip lead has a ring on one end, you slip the lead through it and put it over the dogs head. Snug it up behind the dogs ears, very high on the neck, don't choke the dog, but have it snug.

Then walk..... and don't give any slack unless that dogs head is right there by your leg. Don't talk, don't command, don't say anything... just walk. If the dog tries to surge ahead, simply make a sharp about turn and keep walking. If the dog is in the correct position he should be perfectly comfortable. Stop and make the dog stand still... yup, just stand still. No spinning, jumping, sniffing or peeing. Just standing. Once he is calm and relaxed... start walking again. Keep that lead right up there under his ears! Keep it snug.

If every time that dog attempts to get in front of you, you switch direction quickly, the dog is going to start to get it and will start to watch you. He will begin to learn to respect you. But you must be willing to earn that respect from the dog, you must decide you are in charge, not the dog.

Don't worry about hurting this dog, if you do the above you won' be hurting him at all. It will be him that will be making himself uncomfortable when HE gets out of the correct position. No jerking, no yelling, just walk with that lead in the proper position and you should have a new dog.

The Command Lead is a good tool! So is a flat leather collar with the prongs on the inside. They work wonders on a hard head, neck strong dog. But the best tool is the owners determination that they will no longer accept their dog treating them with disregard.

Every time your dogs goes on a lead, and I mean every time, he must walk calmly. No pullling, no surging, no sniffing, no peeing.... not unless and until you tell them it's ok.

Fuzz

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:41 am

I forgot to mention one thing regarding heeling. Because our dog wants to be in front during walks, our trainer mentioned we hadn't established dominance over him. So is dominance established in another way or is it done by the training exercises mentioned above? Our dog is obedient in other regards.....it's just the walking/heeling issue we have a problem with.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:08 am

I'm not real big on the dominance thing, but I am big on the respect issue. Guess some trainers may use the term dominance. I don't want to dominate my animals, but they must listen, not drag me, not injure me...

Teaching something like heeling, or walking quietly on a lead takes a bit of time, lots of patience and knowing what you want to accomplish before you put the lead on the dog. Dominance may come in many forms, but none should include pain. Quiet determination by the handler sometimes is all it takes.

Put the slip lead on,(remember, high up right behind his ears, think show dog) put your shoulders back, keep your mouth shut, relax and start walking. Get a picture in your head of what you want you and the dog to look like when walking, then make it happen. Then after that, never accept anything less!

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:13 am

Seems like everybody would be time ahead if when the dog breaks the plane of being ahead of you,,, whip the snot out of it. They'll get the hang of it pretty quick or we'll see them on the for sale page in a few days.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:13 pm

I would be inclined to point out that it is a birddog's job to be in front of you. If I needed a dog right next to me I could flush a wild bird myself. It is bred into them to run and run out from you, but they should be obedient and eager to please also. Still I believe when walking on lead nicely you are dealing with countering instinct as well as training.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:31 pm

Very interesting point! I dont know if a GSP could ever be taught to not pull when they saw an animal? Almost like training the instinct out of them?

I am going away for the weekend. Leena is staying with a friend that has 3 labradors. I will def try some of the mentioned techniques when I return.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:01 pm

I wouldn't argue that our gundogs job is to be out in front, but if your dog is a house dog, and if you don't live somewhere where you can just let em run... they have to walk on a leash, and do so kindly.

I remember when I sent one of my dogs off with a trainer from our Nationals a couple of years ago. He came over to our rig to collect "my boy", my favorite dog, spoiled rotten, sleep on the couch dog- he came with that leather prong collar, slipped it over his head, never said a word, and walked away with him back to his rig. That dang dog walked quietly at his side (after trying one good lunge) and trainer never said boo to him.

Since then, I've had to opportunity to spend some time watching this guy work dogs, bring dogs to the line at trials and callbacks. The dogs are always walked to the line, quietly and wearing that collar. They behave, they are calm, they are attentive. It does translate over to every day life, if you make it so. I bought one of those collars and it is one of my favorite training tools. No pressure, no yelling...dogs learned quick that it means business.

There are indeed times when I allow them to walk out front, and sometimes even pull me. But it's when I decide it's ok, not when they decide.

You can teach your dog to walk quiet on a lead, maybe not perfect heel position, but I doubt anyone here cares much about that anyway. Just quit yanking my arm out of the socket! People who can't, sorry don't mean to step on toes, but they either are not consistent, don't really mean it, or are just people who like to have something to complain about their dogs.

Maybe it's because I run a boarding facility that I see all of these 80 lb dogs brought in (or dragged in) on gentle leaders and harnesses that it makes me a bit jaded in my opinion! Geez, bring them here for a couple of days and I'll teach em for ya!
Fuzz

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:35 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I would be inclined to point out that it is a birddog's job to be in front of you. If I needed a dog right next to me I could flush a wild bird myself. It is bred into them to run and run out from you, but they should be obedient and eager to please also. Still I believe when walking on lead nicely you are dealing with countering instinct as well as training.

Your right, the dogs job is to stay to the front. However, the dog has to be obedient. What's the dog worth if it doesn't listen to you? I wouldn't want that dog? The dog needs to listen and learn "Heel". It's about control and has nothing to do with the dog being in front of you. There are courses that I have run, Wye Island to mention one, where you need to heel the dog down a long section of dirt road in order to get around the big woodlot. On other courses, you need to make a turn through a gate, again you need to heel the dog through. If you just let the dog run in the above two situations, you can kiss the championship or trial goodbye because you will most likely lose your dog!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:10 pm

yes, like "whoa" you have to train it. I was just pointing out that it is in their nature to be in front. A herding dog has the opposite instinct, to follow and keep the "herd" / family together - just pointing out that there is nothing "wrong" a GSP wanting to pull out in front and to keep in mind it does not come super easy to train them not to. But the desire to please I mentioned should win out of course

My sheltie used to walk behind me. I trained her to walk on lead BESIDE ME and she did well, but the second the lead was off she was 10 feet behind pacing from side to side to keep me "on course"

Just keep in mind what you are starting with and what you wanted to begin with when you decide what and how you want to train.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 am

I understand that as a hunting breed, they are supposed to be out in front. I also understand that when she see's animals, she may surge ahead and pull, which is okay. I just want her to not pull the entire time when we are talking a walk. She doesnt get walked on the leash all that often, but when she does, I want it to be mutually enjoyable

Got back from my weekend trip yesterday, (Wellsboro PA which seems like an amazing area). I am going to try this week the advice/techniques mentioned.