foot hunting over AA dog?

[jetjockey]

This may be a stupid question, but how are AA field trail dogs for hunting over on foot? Can you reign them in a little or will they still run like crazy? Can you train them to tell the difference between someone hunting on foot vs. running a FT off horseback? Can you have a hunting dog and an AA dog at the same time?

[ymepointer]

That is a great question, and I would say in my experience, and it is not vast experience, it depends on the dog. I had one pup out of millers silver bullet, who I considered an AA type dog that I could hunt behind, though she was always just a little dot on the horizon, but she would strive to stay in front and so handled kindly. I also had a bitch out of Whippoorwill's Wildcard who was just as wide but did not handle, and at least where I hunt that is a recipe for disaster, and I lost her most times I tried to hunt her.

[RayGubernat]

jetjockey -

If you are talking all age as in American Field Open all age, I would say the answer is a qualified maybe. An AF open all age prarie type dog would not be my first choice of a dog to hunt over on a smallish eastern preserve or in the woods for grouse. I have no doubt that some could make the transition...but you are asking a whole lot of the dog. If your idea of gun hunting is something like the wide open spaces of Kansas or Oklahoma, the all age dog might actually be a good choice.

If you are talking all age as in AKC all age, I would say the answer is much more likely to be a yes. The typical AKC all age dog I have seen puts forth a performance that is similar to an AF horseback shooting dog. I know for a fact, from personal experience, that it is possible to successfully hunt over AF horseback shooting dogs on eastern preserves.

The dog would still have to make a transition to hunt successfully for the walking gun hunter, and the hunter will have to trust the dog when it dips out of sight for a couple of minutes, now and then, but it is quite a bit less of a transition than what a true all age dog would have to make.

Keep in mind this is just one man's opinion/

RayG

[jetjockey]

Thanks for the replys guys. The reason I ask is because my pup is at the trainers and his heading off to S. Dakota for the summer. Her sire runs in the ABC FT circuit and is a FC/AFC. I bought my pup as more of a hunting dog, but she seems to like to run, and run, and run. The trainer says the Sire can be hunted off horse back and can be brought in to hunt off foot as well. IMO this would be perfect combination for me. Im not against putting her in the FT circuit if she shows really well, but I don't want to loose her as a foot dog either . She has been at the trainer for a little over a week so I will hopefully know in a couple of weeks how she looks. The trainer seems to think several of her litter mates are showing good AA potential, and my pup seems to run a lot more then one of her litter mates the trainer seems to like. I may have to make a decision at the end of the summer if I'm gonna run her on the derby circuit this fall, or just bring her home and have her be my hunting buddy.

[bossman]

Have foot hunted over "All Age" Brittany's many times. The two things that will determine your success in my opinion is the terrain and the number of birds encounted. If there are good numbers of birds, the dog should shorten up and find the birds. Never hurts to hunt him with an a Garmin Astro just to make sure.

[Wagonmaster]

It may be different in GSP circles, because our dogs have to get through many callbacks for retrieve, which are in a small area and the handler is on foot. They come to know what is going on, and so when the handler is on foot and there are shotguns around, they will adopt an entirely different way of going than when handled off horseback. I hunt my AA all the time, every fall. When I am on foot, he handles well. One advantage if a really well trained AA is that they can handle limb finds. So it is no big deal if he makes a find a quarter or a half mile away, he will still be there when you catch up. In the prairie, where we hunt that is a big advantage.

There is one mistake you have to be careful not to make though. You can't put him down in an area where there are no birds. If you do, he will hunt like that for a half hour or 45 minutes, but at some point he will determine that it is his job, as an AA, to find birds for you, whether they happen to be in the particular state of the union that you are hunting in, or the next one over. You have to be alert for that moment when he will pull the string.

I agree with Ray on the "prairie AA" dogs, but you have to understand that quite alot of those are dogs under development, two and three year olds. Just because they run monster big and need two or three scouts to get around does not mean they are going to win.

[RayGubernat]

John -

You provided a perfect example of a dog having to adapt to changing conditions. Not every dog can make those kinds of transitions, but the ones that can do a job wherever and whenever you put them down...are a real treasure.

RayG

[Shadow]

I like the way you stated that Wagonmaster-

I picked my first FC bred female out of 12 pups- put her in a couple puppy fun trails- saw her mother run an AKC field trail- decided I wanted a bit diffrent in mine- mine turned out to be a handfull for 11 years- I took that female on some hunts with mine- NE Kansas- when we weren't in birds it was all we could do to keep within reasonable distance- reasonable meaning- we had to hoof it and really pay attention to where she headed

I've got a pup that liked inside 1/4 mile last year- but he now likes to be outside that 1/4- tough decision I have to make-

there is one thing you might think on- what your trainer or handler can get out of the dog isn't necessarily what you can get out of it-
a really big running dog might only handle for one person-

[Ron R]

I would have to agree that it depends on the dog and how well they handle and adapt. I personally foot hunt with an AF All-Age dog but he is'nt trialed anymore and if I don't keep an eye on him I will and have lost him. Luckily he handles great but he does have to be handled. It's kind of like bass fishing, cast and reel, cast and reel and if I cast and don't reel I'll be standing in a field alone going to get the buggy and hoping that he found a bird close. Make him hunt where you want him to, not where he wants to (like we all do with any dog).

As far as foot hunting and trialing an AA dog at the same time. IMO and the opinion of the trialers I know it would not be recomemded. Especially if the dog is winning and I know there are guys on here that may disagree but those AA dogs are crazy and thats the way they like them. Run like the "bleep", hit objectives, hunt hard but not to hard meaning don't spend too much time hunting one spot. My buddy has a dog that can't win because it hunts too much. This is all just my opinion from my experience and I would rather not debate it.

Ron

[GrayDawg]

A good AA dog can/will reign it in when conditions/cover/terrain require it.
A good AA dog will also be rock solid on point when you get to them.

notice I said "a good AA dog"......... this does not include:

- run offs
- self hunters
- dogs that don't handle

There is no reason whatsoever you can't hunt on foot behind a good AA dog-
at least not IMHO.

Rob

[3Britts]

My 2cents is that it depends on whether or not the dog was trained to find birds first and to run second. Too many dogs are taught to run big, as that impresses the judges in many venues, and to point birds second. With a dog like this, you will have a hard time hunting them. When a dog is taught to find bird first, which is what hunters prefer, and to run second, the dog learns the difference between trials and hunting. With this type of dog, you will have no problem hunting an AA type dog.
My female, Tania, is AA and very capable of hunting. That being said, I have to agree that the terrain does govern where I hunt her. I tend to use her more for desert chuckar than for forest grouse as she does tend to hunt a bit further out then my other dogs.

[Prairie Hunter]

I have only hunted over two AA dogs. Neither experience was very good. We spent more time looking for the dog than we did hunting. That being said, I have been told it depends on the dog. Some dogs will make the adjustment, and stay closer when you are on foot, and really get out there when you are on a horse. They know how to play the game. I guess I was just hunting over the wrong dogs.

[Wagonmaster]

The term AA covers a wide age range. Lots of people look at those 2 and 3 year old dogs that are in development and think that is what is meant by AA.

Quite a few years ago I had the privilege of riding one of the prairie championships. They turned a black and white pointer loose and I mean that thing was at a mile and going away on the right side of the course before everybody could get in the saddle. I am not talking about a fictional mile, I am talking about two fencelines, fencelines in that area being a half mile (quarter section). So they sent out a scout who rode at a quarter horse race pace, full gallop, and could be seen way out in the distance corralling that young dog and turning it across the front. Handler points out the dog, which is about the size of a grain of sand. The scout, now riding a very tired horse, is on his way back in when the dog hits the mile and a quarter mark on the left side. Since scout one's horse is toast, and he is still a half mile out, scout two is sent. He does the same thing, full gallop, turns the dog across the front back to the right side of the course. Then while scout two is coming back in with a now toasted horse, scout three is sent. Everyone is laughing and grinning at this point. As someone new to trials and mostly a foot hunter at that point, I remember wondering to myself what I would ever do with such a dog. But with a little experience, I know what was going on. That dog was a prospect. They were trying to get him around the course and back home safely without losing him. He wasn't going to win anything that day unless by some miracle he got stopped by a big covey of birds, but everybody knew it was the kind of dog with the kind of drive that you could train, and someday it would, win big that is.

You can't look at a two or three or four year old "AA" dog as the real thing. Oh, they may win some trials, with horses and good scouts the handler may get them around. But they will not start to win consistently until four or five. There is an awful lot of training that goes into them, and it has to be done patiently, without rushing. Because the finished product, the real AA, is a dog that anyone would be proud to own. He knows what the handler wants, is not just running for what he, the dog, wants. He will moderate his groundwork to get around a course like Ames, or Booneville. And he is the dog where, up on the prairies, you will not see him for 15 or 20 minutes, then you ride around a patch of popple and there he is, standing tall and proud with sharptail running all around him, a half mile away.

Lots of people think lots of different ways about All Age, but in my book, and those of a few other people here, Richy, Doug, Ray, Neil, that AA is the most accomplished of the wild bird dogs. Period. Yeah, sometimes you have to put it in gear a little to catch up to him, but there is always a good reason, you will find it out when you get there.

They do know when you are hunting. And they know when you are on a horse and there are 40 or 50 other horses around, and you blow that whistle, it is the Big Show.

[cgbirddogs]

Well put John. I've only owned one all age dog, a derby female out of Miller's Silver Ending. I had her home one winter and took her bird hunting in Arizona during a bumper crop year. Sure enough, she took off in front of my truck like a bat out of heck. When she hit the birds, we parked the truck, got out and hunted over her for about 45 minutes. She never ranged further than 100 yards ahead of us. Of course, the place we were hunting was overrun with Gambels. The photo below was taken after that hunt.

[Ron R]

cgbirddogs, That is an AWSOME, AWSOME setting.
Great Picture

Ron

[Hotpepper]

Had an allage dog for almost 20 years. John is so correct and my dogs have all been great hunting dogs. I would not go to a grouse woods but in hunting in the midwest I have never had any trouble. You learn as they learn. They are different but man can they do it their way.

Jerry

[Wagonmaster]

Well, we are talking in part about whether an AA can be hunted over, but we are also talking in part about my favorite subject, which is "What is an AA." To me, an AA is a bird dog. I see quite a few on the circuit every year that are trained to run, run, run at 10 to 2, and they seem to forget about the bird part. The handler is looking for just one find and the rest is a race around the course. It is not a bird dog, and not useful to us, "us" being hunters, which is what the dogs are for after all, if it is not a bird dog. The all age is the dog you find on point out on a limb someplace, the dog that had the motor and the desire to search a spot none of the other dogs got to.

If it is a bird dog and you put it where there are birds and walk the ground with a shotgun in your hands, it will find them for you.