Time to go....

[rockllews]

Well I've offended someone because I would not sell him a puppy at exactly 49 days old. (Thanks Richard Wolters!) We then had a disagreement as it is his opinion that it is the buyer's decision to choose the age for pick-up; I maintain it is the breeders' responsibility and right to decide where and when a pup goes. Buyers can always take their money elsewhere and breeders can always turn down a sale, that's the way I see it. I'm not concerned that I lost a sale, but I am curious about others' practices.

We like to keep our pups for around nine weeks and allow up to ten weeks for pick up. We've let them go at eight weeks, and while they do fine, I like to have them a little longer to expose them to new things with some element of familiarity since they're still in their 'fear stage' of development.

So, here's a question to the breeders here, when do you let your pups go home and why?

Is there anyone here that still believes in the magical 49 days rule? I sent this fellow the article by GunDogMag "Forty-Nine Days Revisited," and he was more upset about our arbitrary age of eight weeks (I'd only compromise down to eight weeks, not seven weeks, from our nine weeks) when the article says that the best age is really ten weeks. I had no intention of offending him, and indeed I do respect his experience with hunting dogs, which is greater than my own. Oh well.... :roll:

[remmy]

While I agree that it is the breeder's decision when a pup is to be sold and can turn down a sale, I believe 9 weeks is a little too long. The norm is 7-8 weeks. Between 4-6 weeks is the critical time where they still need to be with their littermates. You can let them go no earlier then 7 weeks IMO.

The choice is ultimately yours though.

[Shadow]

suppose it's up to the breeder who knows what kind of dogs he has

when I've bred I want pups taken at 49 days or the price goes up- when I pick a pup I want it at 49 or right close- never regretted those

So you are mad at Richard Wolters- seems sort of foolish-

[Karen]

I think it depends on the litter. The breeder I got Blaze from had 2 litters within 2 days of each other. The other litter was ready to go at 7 weeks. Blaze's entire litter matured a little more slowly, so he held those until 9 weeks. We visited the litters frequently and you could definitely see the difference in maturity between the two.

[rockllews]

Foolish, Shadow? Naw... I was being sarcastic, not upset. It was in Wolters' book that he said to take the puppy at 49 days, and this has been taken as The Word by many of his followers, as seen in this example.

Karen, Thank you for your example. Maturity in the individual litter certainly should be taken into consideration. Breeds, lines, individuals- none are the same.

[ezzy333]

I do not let pups go before 8 weeks. And I agree most should be kept together till ten weeks for the very best results.

Ezzy

[vzkennels]

I let pups start leaving at 7 wks & have never seen a problem with it,started doing it with show dogs in the mid 70's & continue to do so.Most of the pups I've bought I picked up pretty close to that age also.I think it has just as much to do with being handled by humans regulary at an early age as it does being with the littermates.If your not comfortable with letting them go or getting them that early I think that's your choice.
JMO

[R-Heaton]

Maturity in the individual litter certainly should be taken into consideration. Breeds, lines, individuals- none are the same

I like to have them a little longer to expose them to new things

I personally like the 49 day theory,,,, but I don't get with you "naysayers" is you say the dogs mature up in the next 1 to 3 weeks depending on when you let them go,,, does that mean that if you let them take them at 49 days they quit maturing? Rocklews I found your comment kinda of funny,,, you like to keep them around to expose them to new things,, a new owner would be a new thing,,, I think you get the jist of Wolters,, you just want to be the one doing it,,, the theory is they are impressionable and looking for bonding,,,, so why not let them do it with a new owner,,,, whats the harm?

[southernblues]

I do not let pups go before 8 weeks. And I agree most should be kept together till ten weeks for the very best results.

Ezzy

So what are the results of say an 8 week old pup going home vs. 10? Better hunting, obedience, trialing, showing, etc?

[dudleysmith]

What's happens to the pups if they leave at 6 weeks old???? they still turn out the same.

[PrairieGoat]

Obviously every one's opinion is going to be different, but I appreciate a breeder that wants to keep them a little longer. I believe that it helps the puppy in their social skills to stay with the litter a bit longer, and it certainly does not affect bonding. I prefer 9-10 weeks and have never had a problem with my dogs bonding with me.....as a matter of fact, they might be a little too bonded!!!



Randy

[vzkennels]

I seriously doubt that in most cases you could tell any difference in pups or dogs once grown that were taken @ 6 to 10 wks of age.I have shipped pups @ 9 mos of age that come off the plane like they were born & raised by their totaly new & strange owners.We all think we know more then we truely do.JMO once again.

[rockllews]

Well Thanks All for your thoughts on this. I knew I'd get the full range of responses....

We all think we know more then we truely do.JMO once again.

Ted, I couldn't agree more with that, and I do also agree that it would be difficult to ID adult dogs as to when they had been taken from the litter IF they were given a similar upbringing in the new home. I haven't observed a problem in the bonding of six-month olds to their new families either, but surely part of that has to do with how they are raised (part genetics too).

PrairieGoat- Great Pic!
Dudley- Not necessarily. Generally the greatest dog-dog socialization occurs at seven weeks, since beginning at about three weeks and then continueing for several months. Puppies are still learning normal, important pack behavior-type things taught by its littermates and dam at 6 wks.
Some other critical stages- Human acceptance usually starts at five weeks, peaks at 8-9 weeks, and continues for another 5-6 weeks. The fear stage begins around five weeks old, escalates rapidly through weeks 7-8, is at its peak 9 weeks, levelling off in week 10. Of course most of these age estimates were gleaned from one source, although they are similar to others I've found. Some behaviorists break down the development stages a little differently. And some behaviorists and vets say the best age is 7-8 weeks, others say 9-10 weeks, some say 8-12 weeks. And obviously, breeders have their own take on it- even some not letting them go until twelve weeks.

One thing that I think was interesting is that puppies can be +/- a week of development compared to a littermate, regardless of birthdate, because of the biology of canine repro. That's something that one can't really argue about unless their case involves something like implanting embryos of the same age in a bitch. This fact would make the 49 day theory very inapplicable.

Rich, You left out a very important part of my statement:

I like to have them a little longer to expose them to new things with some element of familiarity since they're still in their 'fear stage' of development.

Note "element of familiarity."
I doubt you will argue that pups go through a highly impressionable fear stage. Things are imprinted- something negative could likely result in an ongoing negative response. Like you said, a new home IS a new thing. My thinking is merely this: if seven weeks is when the fear is escalating at its highest rate, then it may not be the most prudent (but certainly not unsuccessful or catastrophic or uncommon) to all of a sudden take the pup out of its familiar surroundings, littermates, mother, handler/breeder, everything... and give it new surroundings, no littermate/mother, new handler, new dogs/cats/whatever, new everything. If the breeder is actively going to work with the pups and socialize them, then why not keep them with them during that period and let the puppy experience more of life a little at a time with him/her, a littermate, a familiar dog, or simply just in the familiar environment, presented in a safe, positive manner? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't have an effect on its reaction, but I don't see the harm in making the effort to give such opportunities to the pup.

Obviously they do not quit maturing at the age you take them from the litter- that was never implied by me. They're still just puppies and will be developing physically, socially, etc for a long time yet.

Thanks again for your opinions on the right time to go.... There shall never be 100% agreement, but it is helpful if you have any experience or information to offer. I guess I'm not even looking to be convinced... just wanted some views from the outside.

[R-Heaton]

I do agree with its your decision as the breeder to make whatever decision you think is best. Personally I wouldn't lose a sale especially to the right customer over it though, IMO if the pup could have something in that 7-10 week time go bad and ruin it,,, then it would have come out sometime in the near future anyways, new home, old home its going to come up. The day Doc Favor says he will take one of my pointer pups is the day he will take it home with him before he changes his mind,,, might have to wrap the little dude in a warm towel and give him a coors light bottle filled with milk and a nipple on the end,,, but he'll leave with the pup.

[kninebirddog]

The earliest I will let pups go is 7 weeks...I prefer to keep them longer

I like them to have the time to socialize with the other pups
but I also do more with my pups then most breeders do. I send mine home already used to collars and exposed to leashes and the chain gang they have had field exposure so their 8-10 week little fear stage is far less noticeable then the average pup as they have been handled to help cope with stress more then most. I also explain to the owners what to do and not do during any times of a pup not sure of something.

i do this to help set my pups up for more success and if it only helps a little at least I am doing all I can to even accomplish that little

[bobman]

stick to your convictions always do what you think is right , thats how I live and couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about it.

FWIW I am in the 10 week crowd I want the pup to understand clearly what it is to be a dog.

[ezzy333]

I do also agree that it would be difficult to ID adult dogs as to when they had been taken from the litter IF they were given a similar upbringing in the new home

This is exactly my opinion also. Just haven't found where many of the people wanting pups have a litter already for their new pup to socialize with. The diffenences will be in socialazation with other dogs, espacially if they are the only one in the new home, and not in how they bond with people.

Didn't say it can't be overcome but just a whole lot easier and probably better when done within the litter structure.

JMO

Ezzy

[Ron R]

Rockllews, It is always the breeders choice when to let the pups go. I just hope that you didn't deprive a pup a good hunting home for an extra week with you.

My thoughts are if a pup goes to a good home at 8 or 9 weeks or at 6 weeks it will turn out the same. I will almost always let a pup go at 6 weeks but if I'm keeping any and I have room I may hold them to 3 or 4 months for evaluation of my picks but if I do I will let the buyers know up front. I know, very selfish, sorry.

I will say this again, it is always the breeders choice. JMO

Ron

[Shadow]

Well I've offended someone because I would not sell him a puppy at exactly 49 days old. (Thanks Richard Wolters!) We then had a disagreement as it is his opinion that it is the buyer's decision to choose the age for pick-up; I maintain it is the breeders' responsibility and right to decide where and when a pup goes.

Is there anyone here that still believes in the magical 49 days rule? I sent this fellow the article by GunDogMag "Forty-Nine Days Revisited," and he was more upset about our arbitrary age of eight weeks (I'd only compromise down to eight weeks, not seven weeks, from our nine weeks) when the article says that the best age is really ten weeks. I had no intention of offending him, and indeed I do respect his experience with hunting dogs, which is greater than my own. Oh well.... :roll:

ok- thanks for your coments to me-

seems strange though that you posted this- why did you follow up with the fella- why not just let it go- somtimes folks back out of a sale for any number of reasons-

[bobman]

I think its a good topic

[Wagonmaster]

Have your buyer look at the original date of publication of that book. It was 1961. And Wolters made up the 49 days on his own. He loosely based it on some research done in 1959. Gun Dog published an article that debunked the 49 day theory, it is here: http://www.calibertollers.com/49daymyth.htm . Give your buyer a copy.

In 1961, JFK was President and open heart surgery was in its infancy. People were still dying from bad hearts that today are fixable. Medical science did not know what it did not know, nor did animal psychology.

In my own personal experience, pups can go home anytime between 6 and 10 weeks. Later is fine too, but it is nice to be done with a litter and all the care they take at some point. I have gravitated more towards the 8 - 10 week range, because it allows me to give pups a good start on birds, so when they leave they know what one is and they are pointing. Nice to be able to show that to prospective buyers. But the reason I like to do this if possible, is that many buyers nowadays don't understand the absolutely critical importance of exposure to birds early and often. So if I don't do it, some pups are going to sit at home during that critical first weeks of development, learning to sit and shake hands, but learning nothing that a bird dog needs to know until the opener of hunting season. Too bad, but that is how things happen now. I like to try to get a commitment from the buyer to either train on birds themselves, or get the pup to a pro who can do it, early in the game. That is way more important than any "magic day" number.

[kninebirddog]

Biggest thing which they are confirming more and more is the first 16 weeks of a pups life is the most important to imprinting what they will be doing as adults...I like to give them as much during this time to help encourage what we as breeders hopefully try and breed in by putting dams and sires with the instincts of being bird dogs so that the pups are diamonds in the rough and just need the exposure and polishing to be great bird dogs in their futures

[Shadow]

well put-

even if something happens to the mother her pups if properly raised loose nothing

[R-Heaton]

So I think what I am hearing is its not so much of staying with the litter its "us" as breeders think we can do a better job at introducing them to things?

I have gravitated more towards the 8 - 10 week range, because it allows me to give pups a good start on birds

John,,, were you trying to be funny on this one?

[Sharon]

I think it depends on the litter. The breeder I got Blaze from had 2 litters within 2 days of each other. The other litter was ready to go at 7 weeks. Blaze's entire litter matured a little more slowly, so he held those until 9 weeks. We visited the litters frequently and you could definitely see the difference in maturity between the two.

Now isn't that interesting.

[Joe Amatulli]

Now this topic does not make a whole lot of scents to me. All you need do is look at a litter of pups play and you will have your answer. And for those of you that don’t have much in the way of common scents, the longer you can keep pups together the better.

[bwood]

How about a great big 'IT DEPENDS' for an answer. The less I know the breeder the earlier I want the pup. The less I know the buyer the longer I want to keep the pup. No breeder is going to tell you they ignore the pups under the porch or in the kennel so you're losing valuable 'exposure' days. No buyer is going to tell you the pup is going home and going to be thrown in the kennel until he is old enough to hunt. I wanted to know if my buyers had other dogs in the home that can help the pup learn canine socialization. However if I'm keeping a female lets say, the only ones who can be picked up early are ones I've already eliminated from contention. Any buyer should be happy that the breeder cares. Breeders choice just like refusing to sell to some people.

[rockllews]

Rich, thanks for the laugh As to your most recent post, I see what your saying... sometimes maybe we get too involved with our litters. But what's the harm in doing all we can to set them up with a good foundation? It's not only litter & dog socialization that is important at this age, but also people & environments. Ron, It was a good home, so maybe some will think me foolish after all

It's not at all that I'm saying 7 weeks is too early for everyone- it works for some, just as 8,9,10,11 weeks works for others. I think we have pointed out that there is variance as to what works, and a wide spread of opinions of what is best. So bwood, yes, IT DEPENDS works in my book, but I do think more time is better.

Thankfully, there has been progress in the study of animal behavior, training, etc. Surely, a group of people that acknowledge that in training the adult dog, no single method, attitude, and set of tools is going to work for every single dog they come across would not be the same group to pick one specific age (ie 49 days) and believe that that is the time that will work for all puppies to take them from the litter and dam. Like one already pointed out, they are still at one of the most critical stages of their lives- I'd say one week, 10 days, whatever, will all make a big difference.

Then there's the other end of the spectrum of this 'socialization' stuff. There's a working dog breeder that raises his pups with close to zero people interaction until he pulls them out of the dog yards and sends them off. He does make it appear that it works most of the time, but I think he's been breeding for that ability. Sometimes I wonder if there's anything to this, but then again I'm selfish and like puppies and couldn't bear to not go play with them....

Well thanks again for all your input and time. Wish my replies weren't so long-winded... but you're in luck because I don't have time to hang out here too much more today!

[R-Heaton]

And for those of you that don’t have much in the way of common scents, the longer you can keep pups together the better

Why? What makes it better to keep them together longer? Or my question what makes it so much worse to take them away? So far I'm not convinced that everything that has been said couldn't and shouldn't be taught or introduced by the new owner,,, wearing a collar, a leash, birds,,,I think we agree its a frightening time for the pups but when they go look for the "safe port in the storm" I think it should be with the new owner,, a huge amount of trust is there to be gained. I personally think that is what will define your bird dogs success more than anything and this is the dogs desire to want to please its owner and the trust he has him in.

[solon]

There are a number of factors that impact the decision of when to let a pup go to a new owner. One is that if the pup is to be shipped, the airlines require a pup to be 8 wks or older and to have a health certificate from a vet. The whelping date can be faked, but the stress of travel and ambient temps on the ground may be better tolerated by the older pups. I have received pups at 8 wks shipped by air and also shipped pups and have had no problems.

Another factor is the pups' immunization schedule. It is nice to have at least one immunization given before a pup leaves its birth home. Giving immunizations too early can result in a poor response. I like to give the first pup immunization no earlier than 7 wks. Our kennel is a low risk one, since we have never had diseases like parvo (CPV) or distemper, the two most deadly pup diseases.

Some say that 10 wks is the best time if pups are to be shipped. The pup is less fearful at that age. As others have suggested, it may depend on the boldness and maturity of the pup.

It would also depend on the new home environment and the potential for good socialization with other people, children, and other dogs.

I think the buyer that insisted on the 49 days pickup is misinterpreting the results of that old study and I agree with the other responders that the breeder can be flexible and adjust on a case by case basis. I think that study was done on prospects for seeing eye dogs and their subsequent trainability for that task. That end point is very different from a hunting dog.

Solon

[Wagonmaster]

Well Bwood has it right I think. It depends. If I know a pup is going to a home with kids, the buyer shows up with his wife, 8 yr. old daughter and 12 year old son in tow (just as an example), and it is obvious in the conversation that the pup is moving into the house and will be played with (and thus socialized) from day one, and the fella is excited about getting some quail to work with early, then even as early as six weeks works fine. Sometimes "real dog people" are the worst though, that pup goes into a kennel run sandwiched between two older dogs and only gets out once a day to run. No play, no socialization, and the dogs around it are all big and loud.

What we have to watch out for around here (east of the Miss.) are buyers who don't have a clue what it takes to make a bird dog. They think that putting the pup through six months of obedience, teaching it to sit, and then spending a weekend scaring the crap out of it ala Richard Wolters to teach it whoa, will get it ready for hunting season, and that is all it is going to take. Sometimes they will take it out for walks and expect it to point a dummy with bird scent on it that you can buy in the store. The pup never sees a bird or is shot over until opening day. I am not a big fan of selling a dog to such a buyer at all. ("Hey, my buddies and I took that new 8 week old pup out, it flushed a bird, all three of us shot it, then it wouldn't retrieve and now all it does is crawl under the truck and shake, what kind of a dog did you sell me?")

I was once asked by a very bright and accomplished fella and hunter, if I would bring a shorthair out he wanted to bring an older fella to the hunt club and the older fells couldn't walk well. Could the pointer find the birds, they would drive the old fella around in a four wheeler so he could get in on the action. Well, that sounded suitably eleemosynary to me so I said yes. I turned the dog loose, in a few minutes it goes on point, they drive the old fella up he gets out of the four wheeler, gets his shotgun and needs about five minutes to shuffle the 20 yards to the point. The dog holds the whole time. Then, out of the blue, the host calls two retrievers out of the four wheeler to bust the point and make the flush! The shorthair involved was not a pup. But this illustrates the basic, complete utter lack of knowledge many have about training a pointing dog.

So yes, if in doubt, keep the pup in the litter, let the litter socialize it, and make sure it is on birds and pointing before it goes. That may be the only bird exposure the thing gets.

The reason I know I can do that, is I have kids around the house who can't keep their hands off a bunch of pups, and I have birds to put the pups on. That works pretty good.

[fuzznut]

1st, it is definitely up to the breeder! And if a new owner doesn't like it, they should go find a different litter. If they argue with you at that point, no telling what else they will argue with you about down the road.

I'm in the 8-10 week old camp... I too like to get them out and about, introduced to birds, the woods, water and more importantly other dogs. I have found that puppies that are in contact with older dogs as they grow up learn how to be dogs better, and not so clingy. I do think that puppies that leave too young are sometimes more prone to seperation anxiety and tend not to get along with other dogs too well. Of course, not all dogs , but some for sure.

Bonding with the new owner will happen at 6 wks or 6 months, heck even 6 yrs.

But, again, it's totally up to each breeder, and may have something to do with the breeds as well.
Fuzz

[R-Heaton]

The whelping date can be faked, but the stress of travel and ambient temps on the ground may be better tolerated by the older pups

This is very true,, but on the flipside the weather could have been totally different a month earlier which wouldn't cause all the stress in the first place? Ship a dog in late spring with nice weather or wait a month when its hot but the dog is older?

and then spending a weekend scaring the crap out of it ala Richard Wolters to teach it whoa

Ya know that chapter I agree is pretty outdated training method and the picture is even funnier,,,, but when I stop and think about it I've spent a fair amount of time with a 1200 lb horse running wide open baring down on some poor dog that has decided its cool to run'em all up rather than point'em. If I wasn't scared chitless of falling off I would be throwing both hands up and yelling Whoa just like Wolters.

[Dave Quindt]

Why? What makes it better to keep them together longer? Or my question what makes it so much worse to take them away? So far I'm not convinced that everything that has been said couldn't and shouldn't be taught or introduced by the new owner,,, wearing a collar, a leash, birds,,,I think we agree its a frightening time for the pups but when they go look for the "safe port in the storm" I think it should be with the new owner,, a huge amount of trust is there to be gained. I personally think that is what will define your bird dogs success more than anything and this is the dogs desire to want to please its owner and the trust he has him in.

Rich, at the end of the day they are still dogs. Dogs don't bond to humans like they do their mother; they don't learn from their owners in the same way they learn from littermates. They certainly learn from, and bond to, humans but I don't accept that they do it in the same way that they bond to, and learn from, other dogs. The litter is a pack; and the individual pups learns from the pack leader (momma) and from the rest of the pack.

Some of folks breeding search & rescue dogs are taking an interesting approach to litter development. They allow the litter to stay together until they are approx 7-8 weeks of age. At that point they pull out the boldest male and female pups and send those to homes. Then they give the litter a few days to a week to resort themselves and they wait to see which ones develop into the boldest boy and girl. Once it's clear who "steps up" they send those pups home. The idea is to somewhat mimic what happens in nature; the more mature pups leave the litter first and those who are not ready to venture out on their own stay with the pack for longer. They keep doing this until all the pups are gone. From what I've read (I'm looking for the source link; will post if I can find it) the results have been a greater number of bold, self-confident pups than if all the pups were sent home at the same age.

Something to think about.

FWIW,
Dave

[Wagonmaster]

Ya know that chapter I agree is pretty outdated training method and the picture is even funnier,,,, but when I stop and think about it I've spent a fair amount of time with a 1200 lb horse running wide open baring down on some poor dog that has decided its cool to run'em all up rather than point'em. If I wasn't scared chitless of falling off I would be throwing both hands up and yelling Whoa just like Wolters.

That had me laughing. Yes, me too. But in the 60's I tried that Wolters method on a new young dog and all it did was make the dog run away. I like Smith alot better, if you are going to use a book to train a dog. I think I would rather use birds and a horse to do it though.

[Shadow]

look at it this way- the dog- or be it cat or anything- is walking running towards you- you stand up tall/surprise it- raise your arms and holler whoa- most will freeze- you got it's attention and could be a start- common scense dictates how much you do it and how you proceed from there- I know of a time it worked on a bear

[R-Heaton]

Dave that's good stuff and think its a great method but,, (you knew that was coming),,, its not an ideal world,,,, in the pointer world I'm happy to get any buyer nonetheless one with cash in hand so I tend to let them when ever they want to take them.

Where do we stand on the proper weaning time? Cold turkey or a few hours a day? I'm a cold turkey guy soon as they can eat enough puppy food (soaked with water) to keep gaining weight. Which usually is about 5-6 weeks,, wish they would stay on the mom longer but normally she starts to lose patience and by then its real hard on her and I need to start getting them back in shape.

[Hotpepper]

Great discussion here on the matter.

My personal preference is to wean them when they have been on solid food for 5-7 days, then withdraw them over the next few days till they are out. Mom needs a little help to draw her down so she does not get mastitis and the milk gets hard within.

Where I live, Indiana statute says, the puppies cannot be sold or taken from the mother less than 8 weeks of age. I feel mom needs to have contact with them, even after weaning, she is the head of the "little" pack and the discipline she gives them is very good for the pup.

I am always most happy to see the new pup go to a home that is prepared with the "very own" pup for the place and it gets even better if the house has someone who is going to give it special love. I love to take a new puppy to the home of my grand children and let the 2 of them try to rub the hair off of the pup. I also really will not double a pup in akennel situation after they are weaned.

Probably more, but that is just what I like to do.

Jerry

[dudleysmith]

Alot of these pups that are held over til they are 10-12 weeks old so they can bond with litermates and give them experience are the same pups that are basically given away because the owner most of the time doen't have the kennel space for 3-6 16 week old pups that no body would buy.

[fuzznut]

As far as weaning, I start them on ground up puppy food around 4-5 wks and give them some everyday untill they are eating well. But I always allow mom the option of coming in to feed for a bit, or to play with them, or whatever she wants to do with them. Sometimes she will regurgitate food for the puppies, gross to watch, but a natural thing for canines.

She has access until they leave for their new homes. Every mom I've had so far teaches them lots more than I can at that age. She goes on our walk in the fields, leads them through the woods, plays with them in the yard. I guess I've never understood taking puppies away at 4 wks old, they still have so much to learn from mom. It's easier on us maybe, but not sure it's better for them.


fuzz

[CherrystoneWeims]

I send my pups home at 12 weeks of age. There are several reasons why I so this and I have noticed a HUGE difference in the pups from litters that I sent home at 8 weeks.

Mom and the littermates teach the pup so many things. They learn how to socialize with other dogs. I have also found that the puppies that I have sent home at 12 weeks are not mouthy at at all!! They do NONE of the nipping and mouthing on humans that pups sent home at an earlier age do. Mom and the littermates have taught them that it is inappropriate to mouth and nip. I have found that I don't have to correct pups for this and my buyers say that they don't have problems with it either.

I also want to get the pups out on birds, introduce them to water, start them retrieving to a placeboard, take them on individual car rides and STRESS the heck out of them! I do all of this to evaluate them and to place each pup in an appropriate home. I certainly wouldn't want a weekend hunter or a pet family to get a FT caliber pup or a pup with a dominant personality! And let's face it there is always one pup in every litter that can be a dud on birds. I want to see which pup is the most biddable, learns the fastest, is the boldest, see which one can handle the stress the best, etc.

I also give the first vaccine to my pups at 8 weeks of age. I want to be sure that there aren't any problems after that first vaccine.

My pups are pretty much crate trained before they go home. My buyers are VERY thankful for that. It makes the transition to a new home much easier for both them and the pup. It's very easy for me to do the crate training because I have a kennel where I can put a 400/500 crate inside of the kennel with the door of the crate butted up to the doggy door that leads into the kennel run. The pups learn to use the doggy door AND to not soil the crate.

[R-Heaton]

One thing I find surprising and didn't know is how many of you start your pups on birds at such a young age? About what age do you do your first introduction?

[CherrystoneWeims]

One thing I find surprising and didn't know is how many of you start your pups on birds at such a young age? About what age do you do your first introduction?

I start with dead quail at 5 weeks of age. I let them carry them around. At 7 weeks I let them chase clipped wing quail. At 8 weeks we go out into the field and I let them start going out and finding planted quail. They are also started swimming a retrieving from the pond at an early age.

Five weeks



16 weeks



Twelve weeks

[kninebirddog]

when the eyes are opened I will put in a dead quail for the pups to check out and smell

5 weeks






unfortunately the only ponds we have here are dirt ponds ...

[Wagonmaster]

I don't know about the dead quail. I have them doing the wing on a string thing as soon as they are weaned, and on live birds shortly after, say 7 weeks. Around here, that is more dictated by when the litter was born and when quail become available, than a specific pup age. I have some old video of Spot and the whole rest of the litter pointing and backing a wing at about 7 weeks.

[Shadow]

and here I thought you were against his methods-

I was going to say- so if I trained one of mine by R W's book it wouldn't even be close to what a dog trained by another method would be like

[BigShooter]

Last pup, picked up at 10 weeks, intro to wild gamebirds at 3 mos.

Pup before, picked up at 7 1/2 weeks. Brief intro to a wing before 7 1/2 weeks. Staunch on wild birds & retrieving downed pheasants at 6 mos.

Here's what we're doing with the current GSP litter: softened dry food introduced last weekend at age 5 weeks. Next weekend, intro to quail at 6 weeks. Between 6-8 weeks, swimming if the weather is warm enough. July 4th vacation starting on June 27th at 8 weeks, so the litter will be split up at that point.

[vzkennels]

Nice looking crew there Mark!!

[BigShooter]

Thanks Ted!

I just don't know what I'm going to do to get their tails lower so they don't look so much like they have pointer in them!

[vzkennels]

That's a problem I love having & so do alot of others !!